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digitalmars.D - What about a real forum?

reply bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so hard
to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've set it
fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far better
and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who don't
know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe everyone
who uses internet has seen it in action...
Mar 22 2005
next sibling parent reply Thomas Kuehne <thomas-dloop kuehne.thisisspam.cn> writes:
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bobef schrieb am Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:48:01 +0000 (UTC):

 Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so hard
 to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've set it
 fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far better
 and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
 administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who don't
 know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe everyone
 who uses internet has seen it in action...


The forum interface is indeed be a little bit cumbersome.

I recomend you try your favourite news reader and connect to
news.digitalmars.com.
Wouldn't want to miss offline reading and searching.

Thomas

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Mar 22 2005
parent reply bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
I use my favourite news reader but the link in the left frame says "Forum" not
something else... And I still prefer forum than newsreader... I find it easier
to follow conversation when every article is following the one it's replyign to
rather than reading separete news... This is my opinion of course...
Mar 22 2005
parent reply Chris Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
I don't know about Outlook or any others, but in Mozilla Thunderbird I 
just use the "View->Sort by->Threaded" option from the menu bar, and 
voila, messages are grouped in a tree, just like in a branching web forum.

-- Chris Sauls

bobef wrote:

 I use my favourite news reader but the link in the left frame says "Forum" not
 something else... And I still prefer forum than newsreader... I find it easier
 to follow conversation when every article is following the one it's replyign to
 rather than reading separete news... This is my opinion of course...
Mar 22 2005
parent "Rob Grainger" <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Yes, and in Outlook Express, newsgroups are sorted by thread by default - if 
not, just choose "View->Current View->Group Messages by Conversation" to get 
it working.

Rob

"Chris Sauls" <ibisbasenji gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:d1pn19$617$1 digitaldaemon.com...

I don't know about Outlook or any others, but in Mozilla Thunderbird I just 
use the "View->Sort by->Threaded" option from the menu bar, and voila, 
messages are grouped in a tree, just like in a branching web forum.

 -- Chris Sauls

 bobef wrote:

 I use my favourite news reader but the link in the left frame says 
 "Forum" not
 something else... And I still prefer forum than newsreader... I find it 
 easier
 to follow conversation when every article is following the one it's 
 replyign to
 rather than reading separete news... This is my opinion of course...
Mar 23 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
bobef wrote:


 Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so hard
 to find anything here or follow a conversation... 


This is not a web forum, but a newsgroup. It's a lot easier to read with 
a real newsreader such as Mozilla Thunderbird, than with a web browser ?

But a web forum is of course also a useful thing.
Dsource has one: http://www.dsource.org/forums/

But this "forum" is more like what e.g. webmail is to regular email...
(I think the web access is more for archiving/linking than actual usage)

--anders
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Alex Stevenson" <ans104 cs.york.ac.uk> writes:
I think a forum would be a good idea - a newsgroup is fine, but with a  
forum it should be a little easier to manage traffic - have named  
moderators for different areas who could look after things (Not that there  
seems to be much need, but as interest in D grows, there probably will  
be). Also it makes it easier to sort out posts in the wrong place and  
other such problems. (mods and admins can just move them to the right  
place).

I've done some forum admin and it's pretty easy - the only problem is  
finding the webspace/bandwidth with php and mySQL (if needed) support.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:48:01 +0000 (UTC), bobef  
<bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote:


 Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is  
 so hard
 to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've  
 set it
 fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far  
 better
 and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
 administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who  
 don't
 know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe  
 everyone
 who uses internet has seen it in action...




-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Mar 22 2005
next sibling parent bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
I don't know where is digitalmars located (assume usa, hopefuly not on mars ;)
but in my country (bulgaria), which is just a bit after mars in it's development
every web hosting service provide mysql and php and it is cheap... In fact it
would be very hard to find a provider without these services...

In article <opsn1ia1pi08qma6 mjolnir.spamnet.local>, Alex Stevenson says...

I think a forum would be a good idea - a newsgroup is fine, but with a  
forum it should be a little easier to manage traffic - have named  
moderators for different areas who could look after things (Not that there  
seems to be much need, but as interest in D grows, there probably will  
be). Also it makes it easier to sort out posts in the wrong place and  
other such problems. (mods and admins can just move them to the right  
place).

I've done some forum admin and it's pretty easy - the only problem is  
finding the webspace/bandwidth with php and mySQL (if needed) support.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:48:01 +0000 (UTC), bobef  
<bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote:


 Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is  
 so hard
 to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've  
 set it
 fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far  
 better
 and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
 administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who  
 don't
 know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe  
 everyone
 who uses internet has seen it in action...




-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
Well, there's a few things here.  First, I should mention I write forum 
software - mine isn't used as much as phpBB, I'll admit, but it's also 
newer.

Regardless, forum administration likely isn't the problem.  Anyone who 
can figure out writing a compiler, or even using one, would find little 
trouble with managing a forum.  And newsgroup administration is fun too, 
depending on the daemon you use.

As for the server, it's digitaldaemon.com running Apache/1.3.31 (Unix) 
PHP/4.3.8 on FreeBSD (when you develop forum software and have a large 
support team, finding these things is trivial.)  So, my guess is he's 
got it, considering this person uses the same host:

http://forum.kneson.com/

The next question is activity.  The digitalmars.D newsgroup looks most 
active and it's seen about 50 posts in the last 24 hours.  That's 
nothing, not to deflate anyone's ego.  The forum I adminstrate gets say 
ten times that per the same period, and it's not even a huge forum.  I 
don't think activity is a problem.

I suspect the real issue is that Walter prefers the newsgroups.  That's 
a deal breaker, isn't it ;)?  I mean, sure... I like my bbc, moderators, 
searching, post editing, statistics, personal messages, and so forth... 
but they're all on the top.  And, most forums - including the one I 
write - have dropped the (imho flawed) idea of threading.  Some people 
like this form of communication, still.

If that *isn't* a problem, finding bandwidth, space, hosting, and the 
like definately wouldn't be.  Hosts will often times give FREE hosting 
to large scale projects such as D, in the hopes that it will promote 
them, etc.

-[Unknown]



 I've done some forum admin and it's pretty easy - the only problem is  
 finding the webspace/bandwidth with php and mySQL (if needed) support.
Mar 22 2005
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> wrote in message 
news:d1ql1t$14nk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I suspect the real issue is that Walter prefers the newsgroups.  That's a 
 deal breaker, isn't it ;)?  I mean, sure... I like my bbc, moderators, 
 searching, post editing, statistics, personal messages, and so forth... 
 but they're all on the top.  And, most forums - including the one I 
 write - have dropped the (imho flawed) idea of threading.  Some people 
 like this form of communication, still.


True, and I can't stand threading either; replies are free to stray way 
off-topic, so you end up with posts that have a hundred replies in eight 
branches, all talking about something else.  Oh, the worst - the mongrel 
child of forums and NGs - forums on which you can have threading 
conversations.  Most confusing thing ever.
Mar 22 2005
next sibling parent reply "Ben Hinkle" <ben.hinkle gmail.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:d1qn4b$16ug$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> wrote in message 
 news:d1ql1t$14nk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I suspect the real issue is that Walter prefers the newsgroups.  That's a 
 deal breaker, isn't it ;)?  I mean, sure... I like my bbc, moderators, 
 searching, post editing, statistics, personal messages, and so forth... 
 but they're all on the top.  And, most forums - including the one I 
 write - have dropped the (imho flawed) idea of threading.  Some people 
 like this form of communication, still.


 True, and I can't stand threading either; replies are free to stray way 
 off-topic, so you end up with posts that have a hundred replies in eight 
 branches, all talking about something else.  Oh, the worst - the mongrel 
 child of forums and NGs - forums on which you can have threading 
 conversations.  Most confusing thing ever.


It can get annoying when a thread wanders way off the original topic. 
Sometimes I will miss entire discussions because some ancient thread (eg 
[Sorta OT] License Restrictions) turned into something else(s) and I would 
just skip it because OE keeps putting replies under that thread even if the 
subject line changed. Is there some setting in OE to say "if the subject 
line differs start a new thread even if it is a reply to an existing 
message"? That would be nice.
But in general threading to me is the only way to keep the conversations 
understandable. What bugs me is when two branches of a thread start getting 
mixed together and answers questions in the other - oy vey!
Mar 22 2005
parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
That's what moderation is for.  With forum softwares, you'd simply 
"split" the topic/thread.... even if half of the conversation is already 
said and done.  I would think this is even *possible* with newsgroups.

As for the threading, it's done usually by the References or similar 
headers, to my recollection, not by the subject line.  I don't know of 
any software that threads by subject, off hand.

Threading is very logical - I'll agree.... but it's also flawed.  It has 
fundamental problems like wanting to answer to branches at once with the 
same sentence.  In some cases you can just post twice, but even that is 
obvious evidence of a problem.

At least, such is my opinion.  Some people love threading and always 
will... I'm just not one of them.

But, when was the last time you read a book that was threaded?  Seems 
they can keep everything in order with a linear format....

-[Unknown]



 It can get annoying when a thread wanders way off the original topic. 
 Sometimes I will miss entire discussions because some ancient thread (eg 
 [Sorta OT] License Restrictions) turned into something else(s) and I would 
 just skip it because OE keeps putting replies under that thread even if the 
 subject line changed. Is there some setting in OE to say "if the subject 
 line differs start a new thread even if it is a reply to an existing 
 message"? That would be nice.
 But in general threading to me is the only way to keep the conversations 
 understandable. What bugs me is when two branches of a thread start getting 
 mixed together and answers questions in the other - oy vey!
Mar 22 2005
next sibling parent "Ben Hinkle" <ben.hinkle gmail.com> writes:
 But, when was the last time you read a book that was threaded?  Seems they 
 can keep everything in order with a linear format....


Speaking of which I used to love those choose-your-own-adventure books where 
you get to the bottom of a page and have a choice to make and option A goes 
to page X and option B goes to page Y and you wander your way through the 
book. That was fun - though backtracking could be a pain. Come to think of 
it at times this newsgroup is a pretty good choose-your-own-adventure...

ps - for kicks I renamed the subject :-)
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling parent reply Manfred Nowak <svv1999 hotmail.com> writes:
"Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> wrote:
[...]

 But, when was the last time you read a book that was threaded? 
 Seems they can keep everything in order with a linear format....


[...]

Ever seen a book in print consisting of preliminary thaughts full 
of errors, written by a couple of authors not having a chief 
editor?

Ever tried to write a road atlas not in a map format but a linear 
format---or even sell one?

You are right, that the capabilities of a threaded view on a topic 
are limited to a tree view on the topic. So that a merge of 
branches is tricky, when the best representation of the view on the 
topic advances from a tree to the more general form of a planar 
directed acyclic graph, which is best represented as a map---or as 
a road atlas? :-)

But even maps find their ends of capability when the best view 
turns out to be a non-planar graph.

However, I do not believe that you would create an argument, that 
driving cars or flying planes is a bad thing because you sometimes 
have road accidents or plane crashes and therefore the best way of 
transportation is to walk.

-manfred

P.S.: There is one argument that newsreaders currently are superior 
to public forums: one is able to score articles automatically and 
keep this scoring private without the need to offer it to the 
prying eyes on the net.
Mar 23 2005
parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
Yep - so called "textbooks" for one.  More errors than science fiction. 
  Yes, many many many times - they're called "directions" and very 
popular.  No.  People would only get confused, it would only complicate 
things even more.

I would suggest that flying cars and planes would be a bad thing if you 
wanted everyone driving them.  I know how to fly a plane myself and have 
done so, and it's a lot easier to screw up than driving a car.  Even a 
"flying car" would be easy to make mistakes with.

I can only imagine the complication to traffic law flying cars would 
introduce; and to think, cars - at least in America - have remained 
relatively constant for years upon years.

But, our clear and obvious difference is the thought of walking.  I 
consider threaded to be going by motorcycle; it has its advantages (in 
LA here you don't need to stay in a lane) but I'd rather just drive a 
car.  With that analogy, you'd likely agree, but disagree with my 
comparisons; this is a preference like so many other things.

In any case, I do very much enjoy walking.  It is an excercise more 
people should practice.

As well, the forum I write DOES store information about articles for you 
in a way superior to most other softwares.  As for being able to store 
the information locally, this is not as difficult a task as you imply, 
but the major problem is simply that cookies are limited in size and 
number per the specification.  HTTP doesn't allow the storage of local 
information in the way you (and I) would like.

The obvious counter is webmail (which can be accessed from anywhere); if 
you were right, webmail wouldn't be as popular as sliced bread - the 
information is not stored locally.  I even have legitamite clients doing 
business with Yahoo.  If that's not crazy I don't know what is.  So, 
storing a few bytes about what topics I like doesn't seem strange at all 
in comparison.

I write non-threaded forum software, and for a reason.  I've seen these 
arguments before.

-[Unknown]



 Ever seen a book in print consisting of preliminary thaughts full 
 of errors, written by a couple of authors not having a chief 
 editor?
 
 Ever tried to write a road atlas not in a map format but a linear 
 format---or even sell one?
 
 You are right, that the capabilities of a threaded view on a topic 
 are limited to a tree view on the topic. So that a merge of 
 branches is tricky, when the best representation of the view on the 
 topic advances from a tree to the more general form of a planar 
 directed acyclic graph, which is best represented as a map---or as 
 a road atlas? :-)
 
 But even maps find their ends of capability when the best view 
 turns out to be a non-planar graph.
 
 However, I do not believe that you would create an argument, that 
 driving cars or flying planes is a bad thing because you sometimes 
 have road accidents or plane crashes and therefore the best way of 
 transportation is to walk.
 
 -manfred
 
 P.S.: There is one argument that newsreaders currently are superior 
 to public forums: one is able to score articles automatically and 
 keep this scoring private without the need to offer it to the 
 prying eyes on the net.
Mar 23 2005
parent J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
...

 I can only imagine the complication to traffic law flying cars would 
 introduce; and to think, cars - at least in America - have remained 
 relatively constant for years upon years.


I don't care what you say -- flying cars are going to be awesome!

-- 
Justin (a/k/a jcc7)
http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
Mar 23 2005
prev sibling parent "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
It's a compromise though.  I can tell you that vBulletin, for example, 
which includes said frankenstein threading, didn't add it because they 
thought it was usable or great.  They added it for one simple reason: 
some people love threading and request it to death.

More importantly, threading is useless if you're the only person using 
it threaded, and everyone else isn't.  Example:

- ABC
   - ABC
   - ABC
   - ABC
   - ABC
     - ABC
   - ABC
   - ABC
(where all of these are replies to each other.)

This is something a person who likes threading can't stand.  I don't 
blame them - when using a threaded system, the above is HORRIFIC.  As 
such, the compromise was made in the hopes of getting people to 
thread... it's not worked all that well imho.

There are other aspects involved, though, of course.

-[Unknown]



 True, and I can't stand threading either; replies are free to stray way 
 off-topic, so you end up with posts that have a hundred replies in eight 
 branches, all talking about something else.  Oh, the worst - the mongrel 
 child of forums and NGs - forums on which you can have threading 
 conversations.  Most confusing thing ever.
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d1p0lh$2ct4$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so 
 hard
 to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've 
 set it
 fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far 
 better
 and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
 administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who 
 don't
 know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe 
 everyone
 who uses internet has seen it in action...


I'm all for it.  Using this newsgroup makes me feel like I'm back in the 
stone age of the internet.  Hell, I can't even post a decent indented piece 
of code on here, not to mention all *other* formatting is lost.  I could use 
HTML, but apparently there are people here who only view messages in 
plaintext, and that wouldn't work for them.

I suppose forums would require much more bandwidth, though.
Mar 22 2005
next sibling parent reply pragma <pragma_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <d1q0nd$h2c$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Jarrett Billingsley says...

"bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d1p0lh$2ct4$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so 
 hard
 to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've 
 set it
 fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far 
 better
 and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
 administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who 
 don't
 know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe 
 everyone
 who uses internet has seen it in action...


I'm all for it.  Using this newsgroup makes me feel like I'm back in the 
stone age of the internet.  Hell, I can't even post a decent indented piece 
of code on here, not to mention all *other* formatting is lost.  I could use 
HTML, but apparently there are people here who only view messages in 
plaintext, and that wouldn't work for them.

I suppose forums would require much more bandwidth, though. 


Technically it *is* a real forum, just not one of the PHPBB variety.  The web
interface is for those of us who don't have NNTP (usenet) readers handy or
simply cannot use such things where they are (*coughatworkcough*). 

http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html

Using a newsreader makes things far easier to manage, search and manipulate than
any web app out there.  Most readers will allow you to display threads, track
read/unread status of mesages, archive old posts, and manage your identity
(signature and whatnot).  

Also, there is a wealth of information (and entertainment!) out there on the
public usenet; so your use of such software will yield additional benefits.

- EricAnderton at yahoo
Mar 22 2005
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"pragma" <pragma_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d1q1h1$hsg$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Using a newsreader makes things far easier to manage, search and 
 manipulate than
 any web app out there.  Most readers will allow you to display threads, 
 track
 read/unread status of mesages, archive old posts, and manage your identity
 (signature and whatnot).


I use a newsreader (Outlook Express, though it's probably not up to snuff 
with some of the others available).  It's still much more cumbersome to 
search for information than on a web-based forum, as I would have to 
download the ENTIRE newsgroup in order to be able to search for something. 
Using a web-based forum, I can query for some data, the server does all the 
searching, and it returns to me the matches, without my having to download 
the entire forum database.

Perhaps other newsreaders will enable me to search newsgroups without having 
to download them?

I still feel rather restricted by the plaintext limitation.  There are some 
things which are just better expressed in the form of lists, tables, images 
etc.
Mar 22 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d1q3oh$k64$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I use a newsreader (Outlook Express, though it's probably not up to snuff
 with some of the others available).  It's still much more cumbersome to
 search for information than on a web-based forum, as I would have to
 download the ENTIRE newsgroup in order to be able to search for something.
 Using a web-based forum, I can query for some data, the server does all


the

 searching, and it returns to me the matches, without my having to download
 the entire forum database.

 Perhaps other newsreaders will enable me to search newsgroups without


having

 to download them?


O.E.'s ability to search the news postings is lousy, but that is really not
the fault of the newsgroup system but of O.E. I recently started using X1
(www.x1.com) to search the newsgroups.

Other than the search, I find using a decent newsreader to work very well,
better than any web forum software I've run across. Let's take slashdot, for
instance. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to moderate the
posts from 1 to 5. It's miserable to use otherwise.


 I still feel rather restricted by the plaintext limitation.  There are


some

 things which are just better expressed in the form of lists, tables,


images

 etc.


The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html
disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to
make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You
can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if html
is turned off.

The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can agree
with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!
Mar 22 2005
next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:51:39 -0800, Walter wrote:

[snip]


 
 The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html
 disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to
 make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You
 can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if html
 is turned off.


40Tude renders HTML and ignored for non-local links. You can't compose in
HTML, but I manage okay in spite of that. ;-)
 

 The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can agree
 with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!


I've used a variety of Web-based newsgroups/forums and none of them meet my
needs. phpBB seems to be the least disagreeable so far, but if somebody
writes a better one, I'd give it turn.

-- 
Derek
Melbourne, Australia
23/03/2005 12:39:10 PM
Mar 22 2005
parent "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
Everyone's tastes differ.  I know I've used a newsgroup reader better 
than the one on digitalmars.com, but I wouldn't be surprised if I 
couldn't find it anymore.  They've sorta gone out.

But, since you asked... there's a bunch of different forum softwares, 
and which you use really depends on what your needs are.  phpBB is very 
basic, with a nice user interface but a fairly simple administration 
area.  Good for entry level, unless you want things like attachments 
which will get your hands dirty.

Invision and vBulletin, also very popular, are not free but are fairly 
good solutions.  In my opinion, Invision is a bit bloated, but they are 
both nice softwares and vBulletin seems to scale well from my experience.

For other needs, there's UBB (imho a less pleasing one, but it's quite 
used...), Snitz (mainly for those without PHP), YaBB (perl), Phorum 
(threaded), XMB (popular mainly by virtue of being distributed with 
cPanel), MyTopix (meant for smaller usage, but looks pretty.)

As well, there's the software I write, which is free, called SMF.  Here 
are some links:

http://www.phpbb.com/
http://www.invisionboard.com/
http://www.vbulletin.com/
http://www.infopop.com/
http://forum.snitz.com/
http://www.yabbforum.com/
http://www.phorum.org/
http://www.xmbforum.com/
http://www.jaia-interactive.com/
http://www.simplemachines.org/

That's just web-based forum software though, not newsgroup readers. 
That's what you get for asking.  As for newsgroups, the only real one I 
can find now is Horde's Troll..

-[Unknown]



 I've used a variety of Web-based newsgroups/forums and none of them meet my
 needs. phpBB seems to be the least disagreeable so far, but if somebody
 writes a better one, I'd give it turn.
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:d1qfcp$vqc$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 O.E.'s ability to search the news postings is lousy, but that is really 
 not
 the fault of the newsgroup system but of O.E. I recently started using X1
 (www.x1.com) to search the newsgroups.


I suppose if it didn't cost $75, I'd spring for it.  Isn't there any other 
generalized kind of way to search the newsgroup database?  Or is it just a 
very strange setup?


 Other than the search, I find using a decent newsreader to work very well,
 better than any web forum software I've run across. Let's take slashdot, 
 for
 instance. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to moderate 
 the
 posts from 1 to 5. It's miserable to use otherwise.


Slashdot's "forum" _is_ miserable.  It's nothing more than a sort of 
extended guestbook.  I take it you've never used a phpBB, yaBB, or XMB-based 
forum then?


 The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html
 disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to
 make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You
 can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if 
 html
 is turned off.


I'll have to remember that.

Though that is another attractive feature of something like yaBB - you can 
use formatting tags in your posts (like [b]bold[/b]) but you can also 
disallow HTML - thus really only allowing message formatting, and at most, 
linking to external images (which can even be turned off, if desired).


 The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can 
 agree
 with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!


I'll leave that up to someone who has some experience with PHP.
Mar 22 2005
next sibling parent reply J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 


...

 I suppose if it didn't cost $75, I'd spring for it.  Isn't there any other 
 generalized kind of way to search the newsgroup database?  Or is it just a 
 very strange setup?


This works fairly well (if the post is old enough for it to be indexed): 
http://www.digitalmars.com/advancedsearch.html

-- 
Justin (a/k/a jcc7)
http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
Mar 22 2005
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"J C Calvarese" <jcc7 cox.net> wrote in message 
news:d1qrjj$1ass$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 This works fairly well (if the post is old enough for it to be indexed):


Which is precisely the problem with it ;)
Mar 23 2005
parent reply J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 "J C Calvarese" <jcc7 cox.net> wrote in message 
 news:d1qrjj$1ass$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 

This works fairly well (if the post is old enough for it to be indexed):


 
 
 Which is precisely the problem with it ;) 


I didn't realize that Walter hasn't re-generated the archive pages (such 
as http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/index.html) 
recently. It looks like it's been over eachthree months for each of 
them. I guess I was thinking he'd update them more frequently (perhaps 
monthly).

I'm still not complaining, though, since in the pre-archive era Google 
didn't index _any_ of the newsgroup posts. This new system (even if it's 
not updated as often as we might like) is still much better than the way 
it used to be.

Personally, I'm pretty good at digging up old posts due to the fact that 
I've read most of them. ;)

-- 
Justin (a/k/a jcc7)
http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
Mar 23 2005
parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"J C Calvarese" <jcc7 cox.net> wrote in message
news:d1su3e$hl3$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I didn't realize that Walter hasn't re-generated the archive pages (such
 as http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/index.html)
 recently. It looks like it's been over eachthree months for each of
 them. I guess I was thinking he'd update them more frequently (perhaps
 monthly).


I have no excuse other than sloth.
Mar 24 2005
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d1qm31$15s9$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:d1qfcp$vqc$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 O.E.'s ability to search the news postings is lousy, but that is really
 not
 the fault of the newsgroup system but of O.E. I recently started using




X1

 (www.x1.com) to search the newsgroups.


 I suppose if it didn't cost $75, I'd spring for it.


I have over 30,000 messages on my machine, something had to be done. I
didn't like google's because it was connected to the internet. I simply do
not want local search software doing anything on the internet.


 Isn't there any other
 generalized kind of way to search the newsgroup database?


Grep will work.


 Or is it just a very strange setup?



 Other than the search, I find using a decent newsreader to work very




well,

 better than any web forum software I've run across. Let's take slashdot,
 for
 instance. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to moderate
 the
 posts from 1 to 5. It's miserable to use otherwise.


 Slashdot's "forum" _is_ miserable.  It's nothing more than a sort of
 extended guestbook.  I take it you've never used a phpBB, yaBB, or


XMB-based

 forum then?


I have no idea what the ones I've used were implemented in.


 The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can
 agree
 with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!


 I'll leave that up to someone who has some experience with PHP.


It could be implemented in any language, including D.
Mar 22 2005
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:d1r77b$1m1n$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I have over 30,000 messages on my machine, something had to be done. I
 didn't like google's because it was connected to the internet. I simply do
 not want local search software doing anything on the internet.


Not even the google desktop was OK?


 Grep will work.


Bless you.

Oh, grep is apparently the name of a program.  Those posixheads sure have 
the funniest names for things, don't they?

To tell the truth, I've no idea where I'd even begin to search the NG 
database with a commandline utility.


 I have no idea what the ones I've used were implemented in.


A very large majority of the forums out there use some variant of yaBB or 
phpBB.  There are others, but they all look and function very much the same. 
Nonetheless, they're all lightyears ahead of something like the slashdot 
"forum."


 It could be implemented in any language, including D.


And you can embed compiled D programs in websites..?  I thought you meant 
writing a better web interface, in which case a scripting language would 
probably be the best choice.
Mar 23 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d1sm88$93v$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 It could be implemented in any language, including D.


 And you can embed compiled D programs in websites..?  I thought you meant
 writing a better web interface, in which case a scripting language would
 probably be the best choice.


All webalizer is is a cgi program that reads the news files and translates
them into html on the fly. The 'archives' pages on the Digital Mars website
are created by a simple D program that runs over the newsgroup files. It's a
bit limited (won't handle html, attachments, and there's no [reply] button),
but only because I haven't spent the time to make a real project out of it.

Frankly, I like the newsgroup system. It has its share of faults, I
recognize that. Many of those faults are poor newsreaders, and are not
inherent in the system. I'd be interested in forum software that is built on
top of the newsgroup system - then people could either use the forum
software, ala webalizer done much better, or can  access it using an
ordinary newsreader. Both should be able to live together.

BTW, one thing I like a lot about newsgroups is that they require little in
the way of active moderation. It's a set up and fuggetaboudit mechanism. For
some reason, the Digital Mars newsgroups have been completely overlooked by
spammers, link spamming, google bombers, etc. I'm concerned that using forum
software will open the door to that, making it a constant (i.e. expensive)
moderation and maintenance problem. Many forums require registration in
order to post, to reduce robot spam. That's not for us - Digital Mars
doesn't require registration for downloads or participation here.
Mar 23 2005
next sibling parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:59:22 -0800, Walter wrote:


[snip]

 BTW, one thing I like a lot about newsgroups is that they require little in
 the way of active moderation. It's a set up and fuggetaboudit mechanism. For
 some reason, the Digital Mars newsgroups have been completely overlooked by
 spammers, link spamming, google bombers, etc. I'm concerned that using forum
 software will open the door to that, making it a constant (i.e. expensive)
 moderation and maintenance problem. Many forums require registration in
 order to post, to reduce robot spam. That's not for us - Digital Mars
 doesn't require registration for downloads or participation here.


Walter, if you ever get to the point where you need some sort of automatic
moderation, I can recommend the ListFilter product. It is also a simple
set-and-forget operation that silently removes spam and questionable posts.

http://www.listfilter.com/

-- 
Derek
Melbourne, Australia
24/03/2005 9:34:49 AM
Mar 23 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:d1sp6e$d76$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 All webalizer is is a cgi program that reads the news files and translates
 them into html on the fly. The 'archives' pages on the Digital Mars 
 website
 are created by a simple D program that runs over the newsgroup files. It's 
 a
 bit limited (won't handle html, attachments, and there's no [reply] 
 button),
 but only because I haven't spent the time to make a real project out of 
 it.


Oh!  Well then.


 Frankly, I like the newsgroup system. It has its share of faults, I
 recognize that. Many of those faults are poor newsreaders, and are not
 inherent in the system. I'd be interested in forum software that is built 
 on
 top of the newsgroup system - then people could either use the forum
 software, ala webalizer done much better, or can  access it using an
 ordinary newsreader. Both should be able to live together.


That would be very nice.


 BTW, one thing I like a lot about newsgroups is that they require little 
 in
 the way of active moderation. It's a set up and fuggetaboudit mechanism. 
 For
 some reason, the Digital Mars newsgroups have been completely overlooked 
 by
 spammers, link spamming, google bombers, etc. I'm concerned that using 
 forum
 software will open the door to that, making it a constant (i.e. expensive)
 moderation and maintenance problem. Many forums require registration in
 order to post, to reduce robot spam. That's not for us - Digital Mars
 doesn't require registration for downloads or participation here.


I suppose that's a very big plus.  Additionally, as someone else said in 
this thread (or perhaps in one of the other branches of this thread.. 
confusing ;) ), having an NG tends to keep the insufferable idiot count down 
;)
Mar 23 2005
parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d1sti2$h9u$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Additionally, as someone else said in
 this thread (or perhaps in one of the other branches of this thread..
 confusing ;) ), having an NG tends to keep the insufferable idiot count


down

 ;)


Last night I attended the NWCUG meeting. Mapquest showed the location as
being somewhere else (an empty lot) some distance away from the actual
location. The building was electronically locked, and had incorrect
instructions on how to open the door.

We joked that it was an attempt to filter the idiots out <g>.
Mar 24 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
Well, I run a firaly active forum and have been involved in several 
others - by active, I mean 500 posts per day or more - and the 
moderation they require is simply the moderation which isn't being done 
here.

Test posts deleted (these are uncommon anyway), topics/threads moved, 
and the like.  Many forums, especially the faster ones, have little 
moderation happening at all.

Spammers don't like having to activate their accounts, but I guess some 
like guest posting.  Link/Google spamming is an effect for blogs, 
mainly, again partially because of the above.

That said, I've also seen a great number of forums with guest posting 
enabled that don't have those problems.  As an example, take the forum 
for ConTEXT, an editor which has D highlighting:

http://forum.context.cx/

Guest posting is enabled there, and I haven't seen an act of moderation 
for over a month.  That forum, however, is fairly slow - about 10 posts 
a day, which is even slower than this newsgroup.

Indeed, that IDE's developer hasn't been around for weeks and the forum 
has been running itself.  There are simply people asking and answering 
questions, giving comments, etc.  Like here, except if I'm not at my own 
computer, I don't have to install and configure a client just to check 
to see if someone's responded with any sort of useful interface.

Anyway, I agree that newsgroups have their benefits.  I just don't agree 
that forums have all the problems you mention.

-[Unknown]



 BTW, one thing I like a lot about newsgroups is that they require little in
 the way of active moderation. It's a set up and fuggetaboudit mechanism. For
 some reason, the Digital Mars newsgroups have been completely overlooked by
 spammers, link spamming, google bombers, etc. I'm concerned that using forum
 software will open the door to that, making it a constant (i.e. expensive)
 moderation and maintenance problem. Many forums require registration in
 order to post, to reduce robot spam. That's not for us - Digital Mars
 doesn't require registration for downloads or participation here.
Mar 23 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> wrote in message
news:d1ti0e$15am$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 That said, I've also seen a great number of forums with guest posting
 enabled that don't have those problems.  As an example, take the forum
 for ConTEXT, an editor which has D highlighting:

 http://forum.context.cx/


Thanks, I just took a look at it. It looks pretty good, but it does have one
serious drawback over news - no indication is kept as to which messages have
been read and which haven't. That's a critical feature for me, as I try to
read all the messages, yet I tend to read them in a haphazard manner. That
works with news, as the newsreader highlights ones I haven't read yet. I can
instantly see which threads have new posts that I haven't read yet. I can
mark a posting as unread so that I won't forget I need to deal with it
later.

Another featrure of news I haven't mentioned is that it is stored as
plaintext files. That means I can archive the lot onto a CD now and then,
and be assured that in the future it'll be readable with ordinary text
tools. They aren't in any database format. Of course, I don't know what form
the various forum software packages store their messages in, perhaps it is
plaintext.

What I do miss with news is a way for users to vote on posts, like what
slashdot does, to highlight the more important ones.
Mar 24 2005
next sibling parent bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
Thanks, I just took a look at it. It looks pretty good, but it does have one
serious drawback over news - no indication is kept as to which messages have
been read and which haven't. That's a critical feature for me, as I try to
read all the messages, yet I tend to read them in a haphazard manner. That
works with news, as the newsreader highlights ones I haven't read yet. I can
instantly see which threads have new posts that I haven't read yet. I can
mark a posting as unread so that I won't forget I need to deal with it
later.


My guess is that you haven't registered. Every forum I've used has this feature
but you have to be registered user...


Another featrure of news I haven't mentioned is that it is stored as
plaintext files. That means I can archive the lot onto a CD now and then,
and be assured that in the future it'll be readable with ordinary text
tools. They aren't in any database format. Of course, I don't know what form
the various forum software packages store their messages in, perhaps it is
plaintext.


I administrate a phpBB forum and it stores it's data in mySQL tables but has the
ability to "back-up" forums in zip archive (which you can download and burn to
cds) and restore it later from that archive...


What I do miss with news is a way for users to vote on posts, like what
slashdot does, to highlight the more important ones.


Word.
Mar 24 2005
prev sibling parent "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
Only for guests, and only with that theme.  Other themes may, if they 
wish, show visited and new links in different colors (as a feature of 
your browser, not the forum) even for guests.

It is critical for me as well; indeed, if you were to log in, there are 
facilities to show:

   - topics you haven't read/updated since your last visit.
   - all topics which you haven't read, or which have been updated.
   - topics you have posted in which have been updated since your posting.

You can also mark topics unread, should you wish to come back later. 
This is a newer feature I recently put in (a few versions ago.)

My newgroup reading client, Thunderbird, doesn't even have the facility 
to show me which posts have been updated *that I've posted in*.  This 
seems so crucial to me, and I use it so fervently on forums, that I 
don't know why it's missing.  Or maybe I just can't find it.

But, I could actually use RSS to export the forum's topics to 
Thunderbird, if I really wanted to read them in such a client.  And NNTP 
integration is possible too.

I back up my forum (www.simplemachines.org) very often; the data can be 
saved in a single plain text file, which compresses quite well using 
gzip or bzip2.  Automated backups are made easy by MySQL's hotcopy 
backup and mysqldump tools.  Without effective backup, forum software 
and indeed anything database driven would be nowhere.

And, if you know even a little SQL (it's elementary, if you don't, easy 
to learn if you've got the math down already) you can replace grep for 
most uses, with a faster and more versatile query :P.  Not that I don't 
love grep to death.

YaBB stores its data in plain text, and is written in Perl.  Because of 
using plain text, and manual indexing, and not being able to effectively 
use MySQL and its caches as shared memory, YaBB can perform a lot worse 
than properly configured servers running other software.  But, they're 
improving it :).

Woltlab Burning Board (another, German made software) has post ratings. 
  Sometimes this fails... it's available for most other softwares as a 
mod/hack (a change that can be applied in an automated or manual 
fashion, e.g. like patches.)

It's not a default feature in SMF (the software I write and linked you 
to) because it causes more need for moderation in many cases, which is 
not something a lot of people want.  That said, we've been considering 
it for addition, but likely default off.  And as I said, there's a mod 
available for it anyway.

-[Unknown]



 Thanks, I just took a look at it. It looks pretty good, but it does have one
 serious drawback over news - no indication is kept as to which messages have
 been read and which haven't. That's a critical feature for me, as I try to
 read all the messages, yet I tend to read them in a haphazard manner. That
 works with news, as the newsreader highlights ones I haven't read yet. I can
 instantly see which threads have new posts that I haven't read yet. I can
 mark a posting as unread so that I won't forget I need to deal with it
 later.
 
 Another featrure of news I haven't mentioned is that it is stored as
 plaintext files. That means I can archive the lot onto a CD now and then,
 and be assured that in the future it'll be readable with ordinary text
 tools. They aren't in any database format. Of course, I don't know what form
 the various forum software packages store their messages in, perhaps it is
 plaintext.
 
 What I do miss with news is a way for users to vote on posts, like what
 slashdot does, to highlight the more important ones.
Mar 24 2005
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Walter wrote:

 "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
 news:d1sm88$93v$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 

It could be implemented in any language, including D.


And you can embed compiled D programs in websites..? 




Of course you can!


 All webalizer is is a cgi program that reads the news files and translates
 them into html on the fly. The 'archives' pages on the Digital Mars website
 are created by a simple D program that runs over the newsgroup files.


Oh, how much easier that would be on a Linux box.

I've got a "Server", 200MHz, 64MB, 1.6GB, found in a trash can. I run 
RedHat 6.3 on it, without GUI, and without monitor. Http is handled 
right in the OS kernel with the Tux web server (comes standard), which 
is ultra light on resources. Does CGI too. And Dscript (as I've 
explained about a month ago). Standard firewall, and absolutely no fear 
of viruses. Been on continuously for a few years. Not a single crash. 
(And no bouts of multiple reboots for weekly installs of windows 
security patches.)

While I haven't tested, I imagine it could handle all DM newsrgoups and 
the web interface, and nightly update runs of the archive pages.

And it is so easy to manage and set up. No guru-level unix knowledge is 
needed. (Of course, I've run Linux since 1993, so it's hard to tell.)

It handles backups of my CurrentStuff directories from my laptops and 
work station (dual boot FC3/W2000, 2x19" monitors, 1600x2400 pixels 
desktop (heh, and only 800MHz)). At times I run a MySql database on the 
server. Never had problems with thrashing or lack of horse power on it.

I use the machine with SSH. Having several SSH sessions from my 
Windows/Fedora machines obviates totally the need for a GUI for that 
machine.

-----------------

Funny thing is, Unix was created for the precise purpose of being an 
environment for software development. And it has a CV of 35 years at it. 
  And _all_ of Unix, and later Linux, is developed by the very people 
who use it. (Gives totally new meaning to "built for the user"!)

Contrast that with M$. "Sold to the bosses of the (L)users, and it 
shows." Ever seen a professional renovate a flat for his own family? 
Sure looks better than his regular client renovations. Not to mention 
all the other things we all know about Windows. Even Apple switched to unix.

I just can't imagine why folks do software development on Windows. 
(Except of course if doing Windows-only software.) I've worked in 
companies where they do Java for Windows. And the programmers all insist 
on using Linux for development, and Windows only for final tests.

The Windows guys don't even know what they're missing. (Grep? What's 
that?) A linux with a GUI misses the whole point. (I use the GUI, and so 
should everybody else, -- but the existence of the GUI totally hides the 
real differences and important things between unix and windows.)

-----------------

<Whoa, Georg!> I'm not angry here, I just got carried away. :-)

*THE* DIFFERENCE between unix and widows is: a windows machine is a dead 
piece of single-user iron. (Of lately, pretending otherwise.)

A unix machine is an alive entity. It does things. On its own. There's a 
soul in there.

Using a unix machine is *DISCUSSING* *WITH* *THAT* *SOUL*.

You have a language that is composed of commands and names of programs, 
switches and parameters. Those are combined to make sentences. You 
really discuss with another entity.

(Compare that with surviving as an adult in our society. If you only 
knew a dozen words, and were unable to construct sentences out of them. 
You'd be put in an institution for retards.)

The CLI is not just for running a program at a time, it's the mouth and 
ears of you both. The sentences say things like:

- If there are files in this directory tree that contain the word 
Agriculture, make a new directory called agri, and make links in it to 
all these files.

- Convert all the D source files below to unix line ending.

- Which d source files are newer than their .o counterpart?

- What was the first time in February I logged in here?

- Give me examples from the hard disk, of how "file" is used inside Phobos.

- Download every month all of the D documentation from Digital Mars, and 
compare that to the previous month. Save the diffs in dmd/doc-diffs 
directory.

- Give me a list of all html documents that mention GC. I want the list 
to include the name of the files, and the 3 lines around each mention, 
with html filtered away.

- Give me the same list, without the filenames.

- Give me a list of all files where the word public is used on the line 
preceding the function definition, and not on the same line.

- If there are files in the above list, make a temporary directory with 
links to each file, so that I can later conveniently study just those files.

- Write a script that sends separately all files created between 6pm and 
8pm last Saturday, to the backup server in Ohio.

- Run that script tonight at 2am, send Peter a mail with possible error 
messages from the transfer.

- Give me a list of all the links in my browser bookmarks, that have 
gone dead.

- Erase all dead liks from my bookmarks (without using the browser).

- On every Tuesday and Thursday, pack all source code files modified 
since last time, in an archive and send that to my other unix machine, 
in the short-term backup directory. The archive sould be named 
YYYYMMDDHHMM-this-server-name.

- Give me a list of all the child processes Dtest01 has currently running.

** All of the above are sentences written on a single command line. **

Other dead-easy things (at least compared to the effort of attempting 
the same on Windows):

  - Your machine has an ADSL or dialup connection to the internet, so 
the IP number changes unpredictably. You have a homepage somewhere on 
the net. You want to use your machine from anywhere in the world. Well, 
add a few lines to the network script, that upload a page to your home 
page server, containing a link to the current IP of your machine. This 
way it gets run everytime the IP changes.

  - So you are on an expensive modem-dialup-only connection? And you'll 
do a 4 week trip abroad. How do you save money, and still be able to use 
your machine? Well, decide on the times you are likely to use your 
machine from abroad, and then have it dial up the net, for 3 minutes. It 
could do that like every 3 hours, or at 7, 8, and 9 pm. If you log in 
(see previous tip), the machine doesn't hang up until you leave.

  - Using a unix machine from anywhere is no different than using it at 
the keyboard. Forgetting to do something before you leave home/office is 
no problem. You can do _everything_ from _anywhere_. Try that with a 
windows machine. (Here too M$, etc. pretend you can (sort-of) do it.)

  - Get your files, upload your files, do compiling, use an IDE, 
whatever. Actually, you get more horsepower from you machine if you use 
it from another unix machine: the windowing system and the IDE GUI run 
on your end! So your own machine has more memory and cpu left for 
actually doing compiling or whatever real work. Oh, and the entire 
connection is encrypted, of course, by default.

  - How about freely getting ideas, and implementing them, instead of 
buying a new shrink-wrap for each (if there even is one) for big money 
(and which you have to rebuy for every new Windows version) and the 
legal hassles of copyright and licenses.

  - You and your girlfriend study, but can only afford a single laptop. 
Well, with an old monitor, a keyboard and a mouse, you can use the same 
machine _at_the_same_time_. And no shortage of horse power. And your 
sister can use it from school while you two use it at home. (After all, 
unix was always meant to be used by several people at once.)

  - Want to use the same Browser history and bookmarks if you alternate 
between windows and unix usage on the same machine? Piece of cake.

  - How about getting every piece of software you'll ever need to buy, 
just as a side effect of installing the OS? For free.

  - How about doing absolutely whatever you please with your computer, 
instead of what Bill thought appropriate for you?

  - How about _never_ buying a new computer again?? Just buy three year 
old second hands from now on -- while getting more net horsepower than 
with leading-edge Wintel crap? Look at the savings! And the OS comes 
free, too. And all the apps.

  - Want to change an app? Just get the source, tweak the source, and 
run make. Wanna do that on windows? Ha!

  - Wanna do something that's impossible? Just google around, somebody 
has already done it.

  - How about compiling huge apps while surfing the net, archiving a 
large directory tree, editing in the IDE, and serving files to www 
users. Without experiencing a lack of horse power!

D is not Windows-only, so it should be developed on unix.
Mar 24 2005
next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:


 I've got a "Server", 200MHz, 64MB, 1.6GB, found in a trash can. I run 
 RedHat 6.3 on it, without GUI, and without monitor.


While there is nothing wrong with Linux, running a Red Hat installation
that old is not really very secure... ("no fear of viruses" ? Really ?)

Better to run something that is still supported, like Debian GNU/Linux ?


 <Whoa, Georg!> I'm not angry here, I just got carried away. :-)
 
 *THE* DIFFERENCE between unix and widows is: a windows machine is a dead 
 piece of single-user iron. (Of lately, pretending otherwise.)


As the old saying goes:
   Linux is for people who hate Windows,
   BSD is for people who love Unix... :-)


 D is not Windows-only, so it should be developed on unix.


GDC already is... DMD, however, is not. (both use the "D" language)

I think it is up to each and every developer (and user) to choose
what operating system they want. And Walter seems to prefer Windows ?

I do not.
--anders
Mar 24 2005
parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Anders F Björklund wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote:
 

 I've got a "Server", 200MHz, 64MB, 1.6GB, found in a trash can. I run 
 RedHat 6.3 on it, without GUI, and without monitor.


 
 
 While there is nothing wrong with Linux, running a Red Hat installation
 that old is not really very secure... ("no fear of viruses" ? Really ?)
 
 Better to run something that is still supported, like Debian GNU/Linux ?


Well, I've updated SSH, and I'm not too scared about Tux. Anyhow, for 
windows folks, this did not need rebooting either. I'm personally more 
used to RedHat, so Debian just "feels" unfamiliar, although it's 
obviously got quite a few things right. Anyhow, the firewall is well 
enough configured. SSH and HTTP are the only open ports.


 <Whoa, Georg!> I'm not angry here, I just got carried away. :-)

 *THE* DIFFERENCE between unix and widows is: a windows machine is a 
 dead piece of single-user iron. (Of lately, pretending otherwise.)


 
 
 As the old saying goes:
   Linux is for people who hate Windows,
   BSD is for people who love Unix... :-)


My reason for preferring Linux over BSD have nothing to do with any 
logical things, I just happen to personally know Linus Torvalds, and 
that's why I'll stick with Linux, come hell or high water. :-)


 D is not Windows-only, so it should be developed on unix.


 
 
 GDC already is... DMD, however, is not. (both use the "D" language)
 
 I think it is up to each and every developer (and user) to choose
 what operating system they want. And Walter seems to prefer Windows ?
 
 I do not.


He'd save time and effort in the long run.
Mar 24 2005
prev sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
You may wish to look at Ben Goodger (lead Firefox developer)'s blog. 
He's actually touched this issue.

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/archives/007426.html

It's pretty specific, and I agree with what he said.  But, for 
servers... it's no joke.  I've had enough experience to say that time 
and time again I've seen Linux servers beat Windows ones up and down, 
even with slower processors and less ram.

-[Unknown]
Mar 24 2005
parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Unknown W. Brackets wrote:

 You may wish to look at Ben Goodger (lead Firefox developer)'s blog. 
 He's actually touched this issue.
 
 http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/archives/007426.html


Yeah. There are pieces of software that rise above the rest. On the 
ancient Macintosh there was one, called Hyper Card. Later M$ tried to 
copy the thing, but when adding bells and whistles, they raped the 
entire /raison/ /d'etre/ of it. And it was too slow to be usable to 
anything _at_all_.

My personal "old and loved piece of software" is Ecco Pro. Last version 
is from 1997. Man, I'd have loved to see it still being sold. It was 
perfect as-is, so development was stopped. Net Manage also changed focus 
at the time. And for several copyright issues, they couldn't release it 
as open source. How sad. Without it, I'd have skipped widows entirely.

Another prog is QEdit, which I've used continuously from 1987(!) up till 
lately. Fitted my needs like a glove. Sadly, the newer versions weren't 
like the original gem!


 It's pretty specific, and I agree with what he said.  But, for 
 servers... it's no joke.  I've had enough experience to say that time 
 and time again I've seen Linux servers beat Windows ones up and down, 
 even with slower processors and less ram.


That, and being able to _discuss_ with your computer.
Mar 25 2005
prev sibling parent "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> writes:
 O.E.'s ability to search the news postings is lousy, but that is really not
 the fault of the newsgroup system but of O.E. I recently started using X1
 (www.x1.com) to search the newsgroups.


Have you looked at Opera Mail?  I've heard good things about it, and 
whilst I use Thunderbird myself... Opera's has very nice message 
labeling and searching.  And Google text ads just like Google ;).


 Other than the search, I find using a decent newsreader to work very well,
 better than any web forum software I've run across. Let's take slashdot, for
 instance. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to moderate the
 posts from 1 to 5. It's miserable to use otherwise.


Slashdot is a poor example.  I wouldn't want to subject myself to that. 
  However, the obvious downside of a newsgroup is probably something you 
want: many people don't know how to get to it or use it.

While personally I wouldn't like this (hard to support people who can't 
find you), it does keep many of the newbies away (who wouldn't be able 
to figure out how to set up a news client in any case.)


 The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html
 disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to
 make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You
 can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if html
 is turned off.


I'm a fuddy-duddy too, then, because I read email and news without HTML. 
  The problems with security there are many fold, however, especially 
because of the things Internet Explorer has... "added" to its HTML. 
Sigh.  Anyway, many forums *are* written to do just this, and I know 
Thunderbird has a "safe HTML only" type feature.


 The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can agree
 with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!


How about a script that syncronizes a database driven forum software 
with an NNTP daemon? (some forum softwares already have this.)

-[Unknown]
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling parent Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 "bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
 news:d1p0lh$2ct4$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 

Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so 
hard
to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've 
set it
fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far 
better
and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who 
don't
know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe 
everyone
who uses internet has seen it in action...


 
 
 I'm all for it.  Using this newsgroup makes me feel like I'm back in the 
 stone age of the internet.  Hell, I can't even post a decent indented piece 
 of code on here, not to mention all *other* formatting is lost.  I could use 
 HTML, but apparently there are people here who only view messages in 
 plaintext, and that wouldn't work for them.
 
 I suppose forums would require much more bandwidth, though. 
 
 


Usenet using a real newsreader (I'm using Thunderbird) is the only 
*real* forum out there ;) It's umpteen times faster than using those 
webforums.

Lars Ivar Igesund
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
In article <d1p0lh$2ct4$1 digitaldaemon.com>, bobef says...

Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so hard
to find anything here or follow a conversation.


And here I am wishing usenet were more popular :)

Though I'll grant that it would be nice if Google picked up the DigitalMars
groups.


Sean
Mar 22 2005
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <z a.a> writes:
PHPBB is a giant, gaping security hole.  Everyone and their dog is out 
hacking PHPBB-based forums, it's gotten so bad that anyone who doesn't apply 
every new update the moment it's released is pretty much guaranteed to get 
rootkitted.

"bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d1p0lh$2ct4$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so 
 hard
 to find anything here or follow a conversation... PHPBB is free and I've 
 set it
 fully working just by reading quick installation guide. It's looks far 
 better
 and is easy to find anythig. It has cool search and is VERY easy to
 administrate. Also it is very customizable even for people like me who 
 don't
 know php and all colourful crap could be easily removed.... I believe 
 everyone
 who uses internet has seen it in action...
Mar 23 2005