• Chris Miller <lordSaurontheGreat gmail.com> Feb 18 2008
• Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> Feb 18 2008
• Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> Feb 18 2008
• "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> Feb 19 2008
• torhu <no spam.invalid> Feb 18 2008
• Chris Miller <lordSaurontheGreat gmail.com> Feb 19 2008
• "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> Feb 19 2008
• jcc7 <technocrat7 gmail.com> Feb 20 2008

Chris Miller <lordSaurontheGreat gmail.com> writes:

Bill Baxter Wrote:

 Chris Miller wrote:
 I've been having some major issues for a long while now trying to install D. 
Much of it is because of my library choices, but I don't have a choice as to
what libraries I need.
 
 I've been working to try and get a working installation of D on my Windows
Vista workstation.  Whether it's DMD or GDC I don't really care.  My biggest
problem is that I need Tango, Derelect, and DDBI.  I've totally given up on
finding an IDE by now.
 
 I've been following the instructions online to the letter (the ones on
digitalmars.com) and they keep throwing me grief.  The DInstaller project
hasn't been good, since it installs everything to somewhere I can't find.  I
got DSSS working once, which was nice...  but then when I tried to build a
helloworld.d file it didn't work (tried using rebuild, which is what I would be
building larger projects with).
 
 I can provide further documentation of what I've tried if you like, though
it's really just me hitting wall after wall after wall.
 
 Thanks for your time, and thanks in advance for any pointers or help you can
give!


 Do you think it's Vista-specific?


I don't think so, since I'm running my shells as administrator.  I use Cygwin
in addition to the normal Windows command prompt, switching to the less-capable
windows prompt when necessary.

I know I have something that almost works, since I got it to the point where I
have a base install (Phobos, dmd, and nothing else) which can compile a blank D
program (void main(){}) without any problems, and UAC doesn't try and badger me.

It's getting Derelect, Tango*, and DDBI as well that's proving to be the hard
part.  DWT would be nice, too, but I could do without it if I have to.  Rebuild
is also sort of required, since I can't build all this stuff by hand all the
time.  That's just raw insanity if you ask me!

* Or Tangobos.  I just need the features from the listed libraries, I don't
much care how I get 'em.  I just want to write code now...  I've been beating
compilers around for a long time trying to get them to work.  If you have a
working setup, man, consider yourself lucky!  You don't know how hard it is to
see a beautiful language and not be able to take it for a spin!

Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:

Chris Miller wrote:
 Bill Baxter Wrote:
 
 Chris Miller wrote:
 I've been having some major issues for a long while now trying to install D. 
Much of it is because of my library choices, but I don't have a choice as to
what libraries I need.

 I've been working to try and get a working installation of D on my Windows
Vista workstation.  Whether it's DMD or GDC I don't really care.  My biggest
problem is that I need Tango, Derelect, and DDBI.  I've totally given up on
finding an IDE by now.

 I've been following the instructions online to the letter (the ones on
digitalmars.com) and they keep throwing me grief.  The DInstaller project
hasn't been good, since it installs everything to somewhere I can't find.  I
got DSSS working once, which was nice...  but then when I tried to build a
helloworld.d file it didn't work (tried using rebuild, which is what I would be
building larger projects with).

 I can provide further documentation of what I've tried if you like, though
it's really just me hitting wall after wall after wall.

 Thanks for your time, and thanks in advance for any pointers or help you can
give!




 I don't think so, since I'm running my shells as administrator.  I use Cygwin
in addition to the normal Windows command prompt, switching to the less-capable
windows prompt when necessary.
 
 I know I have something that almost works, since I got it to the point where I
have a base install (Phobos, dmd, and nothing else) which can compile a blank D
program (void main(){}) without any problems, and UAC doesn't try and badger me.
 
 It's getting Derelect, Tango*, and DDBI as well that's proving to be the hard
part.  DWT would be nice, too, but I could do without it if I have to.  Rebuild
is also sort of required, since I can't build all this stuff by hand all the
time.  That's just raw insanity if you ask me!
 
 * Or Tangobos.  I just need the features from the listed libraries, I don't
much care how I get 'em.  I just want to write code now...  I've been beating
compilers around for a long time trying to get them to work.  If you have a
working setup, man, consider yourself lucky!  You don't know how hard it is to
see a beautiful language and not be able to take it for a spin!



I have a Cygwin install too, but I don't trust it for doing D stuff.  Or 
rather the D toolchain has so much crufty stuff in it that I don't trust 
it to be able to compile from anywhere other than a good ole DOS prompt.

Speaking of crufy toolchain, which directory did you install D stuff 
into?  I think C:\dmd is what's recommended -- specifically no spaces of 
funky chars in your path.  I've been using f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd as my 
install location for a long time with no troubles. (F:\ is a portable 
drive.)

I've got other things installed mostly under the dmd imports dir:
f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\tangobos
f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\dfl
f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\tango
f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\derelict
etc...

DSSS is under:

f:\usr\pkg\d\dsss

--bb

Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:

Bill Baxter wrote:
 Chris Miller wrote:
 Bill Baxter Wrote:

 Chris Miller wrote:
 I've been having some major issues for a long while now trying to 
 install D.  Much of it is because of my library choices, but I don't 
 have a choice as to what libraries I need.

 I've been working to try and get a working installation of D on my 
 Windows Vista workstation.  Whether it's DMD or GDC I don't really 
 care.  My biggest problem is that I need Tango, Derelect, and DDBI.  
 I've totally given up on finding an IDE by now.

 I've been following the instructions online to the letter (the ones 
 on digitalmars.com) and they keep throwing me grief.  The DInstaller 
 project hasn't been good, since it installs everything to somewhere 
 I can't find.  I got DSSS working once, which was nice...  but then 
 when I tried to build a helloworld.d file it didn't work (tried 
 using rebuild, which is what I would be building larger projects with).

 I can provide further documentation of what I've tried if you like, 
 though it's really just me hitting wall after wall after wall.

 Thanks for your time, and thanks in advance for any pointers or help 
 you can give!




 I don't think so, since I'm running my shells as administrator.  I use 
 Cygwin in addition to the normal Windows command prompt, switching to 
 the less-capable windows prompt when necessary.

 I know I have something that almost works, since I got it to the point 
 where I have a base install (Phobos, dmd, and nothing else) which can 
 compile a blank D program (void main(){}) without any problems, and 
 UAC doesn't try and badger me.

 It's getting Derelect, Tango*, and DDBI as well that's proving to be 
 the hard part.  DWT would be nice, too, but I could do without it if I 
 have to.  Rebuild is also sort of required, since I can't build all 
 this stuff by hand all the time.  That's just raw insanity if you ask me!

 * Or Tangobos.  I just need the features from the listed libraries, I 
 don't much care how I get 'em.  I just want to write code now...  I've 
 been beating compilers around for a long time trying to get them to 
 work.  If you have a working setup, man, consider yourself lucky!  You 
 don't know how hard it is to see a beautiful language and not be able 
 to take it for a spin!


 
 I have a Cygwin install too, but I don't trust it for doing D stuff.  Or 
 rather the D toolchain has so much crufty stuff in it that I don't trust 
 it to be able to compile from anywhere other than a good ole DOS prompt.
 
 Speaking of crufy toolchain, which directory did you install D stuff 
 into?  I think C:\dmd is what's recommended -- specifically no spaces of 
 funky chars in your path.  I've been using f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd as my 
 install location for a long time with no troubles. (F:\ is a portable 
 drive.)
 
 I've got other things installed mostly under the dmd imports dir:
 f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\tangobos
 f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\dfl
 f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\tango
 f:\usr\pkg\d\dmd\import\derelict
 etc...
 
 DSSS is under:
 
 f:\usr\pkg\d\dsss
 
 --bb


BTW... you must be a different Chris Miller than the one who wrote DFL, 
huh?  That would explain how Chris Miller was able to fix a bug I 
reported yesterday at the same time Chris Miller is unable to get a D 
install working at all. :-)  Confused me for a minute there...

--bb

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:

"Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> wrote in message 
news:fpe0l1$2up4$2 digitalmars.com...

 BTW... you must be a different Chris Miller than the one who wrote DFL, 
 huh?  That would explain how Chris Miller was able to fix a bug I reported 
 yesterday at the same time Chris Miller is unable to get a D install 
 working at all. :-)  Confused me for a minute there...


Yes, this is Chris "Lord Sauron" Miller, not Chris "byte[]" Miller ;)  I 
mean, when you have such a common name, you're bound to get duplicates once 
in a while. 

torhu <no spam.invalid> writes:

Chris Miller wrote:
 I know I have something that almost works, since I got it to the point where I
have a base install (Phobos, dmd, and nothing else) which can compile a blank D
program (void main(){}) without any problems, and UAC doesn't try and badger me.
 
 It's getting Derelect, Tango*, and DDBI as well that's proving to be the hard
part.  DWT would be nice, too, but I could do without it if I have to.  Rebuild
is also sort of required, since I can't build all this stuff by hand all the
time.  That's just raw insanity if you ask me!
 
 * Or Tangobos.  I just need the features from the listed libraries, I don't
much care how I get 'em.  I just want to write code now...  I've been beating
compilers around for a long time trying to get them to work.  If you have a
working setup, man, consider yourself lucky!  You don't know how hard it is to
see a beautiful language and not be able to take it for a spin!



Setting up a D environment and be able to build apps can be trickier 
than with other languagues.  Mostly because there are two competing std 
libraries, and because the commonly used build tools are so different 
from what people are used to.

One important basic is to figure out how to configure dmd correctly, 
mainly the LIB and DFLAGS settings in sc.ini.  I'll just post the link 
here, to further insult your intelligence. ;)
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/dcompiler.html#sc_ini


Some random hints:

Don't try to build tango with dsss, IIRC it doesn't work.  Use the batch 
files in tango/lib, you just need to run them in alphabetical order. 
Then you only need to set up your import (include) and lib paths in 
sc.ini to point to tango instead of phobos.

Don't try to use tangobos until you've gotten some general experience 
with building D apps and libs.  It can complicate your build process a lot.


And if you post the error messages here or in #D on irc, there's a good 
chance someone will spot the problem right away. Been there, done that. :)

Chris Miller <lordSaurontheGreat gmail.com> writes:

torhu Wrote:

 Chris Miller wrote:
 I know I have something that almost works, since I got it to the point where I
have a base install (Phobos, dmd, and nothing else) which can compile a blank D
program (void main(){}) without any problems, and UAC doesn't try and badger me.
 
 It's getting Derelect, Tango*, and DDBI as well that's proving to be the hard
part.  DWT would be nice, too, but I could do without it if I have to.  Rebuild
is also sort of required, since I can't build all this stuff by hand all the
time.  That's just raw insanity if you ask me!
 
 * Or Tangobos.  I just need the features from the listed libraries, I don't
much care how I get 'em.  I just want to write code now...  I've been beating
compilers around for a long time trying to get them to work.  If you have a
working setup, man, consider yourself lucky!  You don't know how hard it is to
see a beautiful language and not be able to take it for a spin!


 
 Setting up a D environment and be able to build apps can be trickier 
 than with other languagues.  Mostly because there are two competing std 
 libraries, and because the commonly used build tools are so different 
 from what people are used to.


90% of the ambiguity I perceive is from the Phobos/Tango problem.

 One important basic is to figure out how to configure dmd correctly, 
 mainly the LIB and DFLAGS settings in sc.ini.  I'll just post the link 
 here, to further insult your intelligence. ;)
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/dcompiler.html#sc_ini


Actually that helps a great deal.

 Some random hints:
 
 Don't try to build tango with dsss, IIRC it doesn't work.  Use the batch 
 files in tango/lib, you just need to run them in alphabetical order. 
 Then you only need to set up your import (include) and lib paths in 
 sc.ini to point to tango instead of phobos.


Batch files?  Gosh that sounds not far removed from the time-honored tradition
of caveman debugging.  In the Engineer's famous last words, there has to be a
better way.  I'll try the batch files if nothing else works.

 Don't try to use tangobos until you've gotten some general experience 
 with building D apps and libs.  It can complicate your build process a lot.


Yeah, I read something about differences between Object.d and madness like that.

If the two library's cores are separate, it seems to me that one could mitigate
their differences and stick them both into the default download.  It's very
detrimental to continue to have these two libraries conflicting so violently
with each other.

 And if you post the error messages here or in #D on irc, there's a good 
 chance someone will spot the problem right away. Been there, done that. :)


Ah, yes, IRC.  The one thing I always have with me, but never remember to use.

I'm so old-school.  I have yet to really embrace instant messaging, cell
phones, text messaging, and forum boards.  I'm still stuck in email and Usenet.

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:

"Chris Miller" <lordSaurontheGreat gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:fpfjh4$lds$1 digitalmars.com...

 Yeah, I read something about differences between Object.d and madness like 
 that.

 If the two library's cores are separate, it seems to me that one could 
 mitigate their differences and stick them both into the default download. 
 It's very detrimental to continue to have these two libraries conflicting 
 so violently with each other.


Hey, take it up with the Big Man.  There's overwhelming support for Tango to 
supplant or at least be a surrogate to Phobos, if the recent survey says 
anything, but Walter still insists on keeping Phobos.  There's only one 
person who can say which library is "standard" and either he doesn't _want_ 
to or he just doesn't have the time.  (My guess is a bit of both.)

Until then, there's nothing anyone else can do. 

jcc7 <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:

== Quote from Jarrett Billingsley (kb3ctd2 yahoo.com)'s article
 "Chris Miller" <lordSaurontheGreat gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:fpfjh4$lds$1 digitalmars.com...
 Yeah, I read something about differences between Object.d and
 madness like that.

 If the two library's cores are separate, it seems to me that one
 could mitigate their differences and stick them both into the
 default download.
 It's very detrimental to continue to have these two libraries
 conflicting so violently with each other.


 Hey, take it up with the Big Man.  There's overwhelming support for
 Tango to supplant or at least be a surrogate to Phobos, if the
 recent survey says anything, but Walter still insists on keeping
 Phobos.  There's only one person who can say which library is
 "standard" and either he doesn't _want_ to or he just doesn't have
 the time.  (My guess is a bit of both.)

 Until then, there's nothing anyone else can do.


I don't want this thread to become another Phobos vs. Tango thread, but I'm
going
to express my opinion.

<rant>

This attitude of (paraphrasing) "there are two standard libraries because Walter
won't declare that Tango is the standard library" is part of the reason why
people
don't like Tango.

(And I think that members of the Tango team have argued that the Tango team has
never called Tango a standard library. Indeed, the Tango website,
http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango, doesn't seem to refer to Tango as a
standard library.)

Phobos is the standard library: "Phobos is the standard runtime library that
comes
with the D language compiler."
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/phobos/phobos.html

Tango is an alternate runtime library. It's not a standard library. Walter has
made his decision. Maybe he'll adopt Tango in the future, but Phobos was first
and
Tango is the new kid. The new kid has a lot of toys and doesn't want to share
the
sandbox with Phobos, but it's still the new kid.

I understand that Tango came about from merging Ares and Mango (and some other
projects), but I think it's unfortunate that it can't coexist better with Phobos
-- such as a version of Tango that is available without the runtime so that you
can download a standard DMD package from digitalmars.com and then supplement it
with some Tango goodies. It sounds like Walter is slowly accepting some runtime
improvements from Tango, but I doubt that Walter will ever accept all of Tango's
ideas. He likes to be in control and be able to judge for himself whether the
code
is what he wants. The best we can realistically hope for is improved
compatibility. Tango could help by compromising some of its uniqueness when
Walter
has gone as far as he's going to do. (I think that Tango has had some changes to
improve compatibility recently, and that's a good thing.)

Winning a web poll doesn't prove overwhelming support. It'll take more than that
to sway Walter. (Many people abstain from web polls because they realize they
don't have any effect.) Walter's vote is worth more than the rest of our votes.

</rant>