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digitalmars.D - Phobos incubator project ?

reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
A lot of unused source is laying around, a lot of (not yet) 
written/complete stuff is just waiting for feedback. People have ideas 
and want to bring in some good stuff.
Now it is hard to contribute to Phobos. (and I understand)
Why not having an incubator project where people can bring in useful 
stuff without having an PhD.
Limitation should be BOOST license and default coding style. That's it.
--- We all know it ---
Phobos still lacks ; nntp, pop3, imap.. i18n.. containers, graphs, 
db-connection and db-abstraction tools. and what the heck..
---

So IMHO an incubator project would make sense. What do you think ?

Bjoern
Aug 15 2010
next sibling parent reply simendsjo <simen.endsjo pandavre.com> writes:
On 15.08.2010 19:07, BLS wrote:

 default coding style


And that is..? 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3480363/d-phobos-style-guide
Aug 15 2010
parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
On 15/08/2010 19:13, simendsjo wrote:

 On 15.08.2010 19:07, BLS wrote:

 default coding style


 And that is..?
 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3480363/d-phobos-style-guide


Thanks for the feedback.
But somehow I am not able to figure out what your opinion is regarding 
an incubator project :)
..and what I forget to mention: In case that somebody is going to 
implement, for instance,  something based on std.sockets/streams  he 
will immediately find out that the std.sockets etc. implementation in 
core Phobos (to say so) is insufficient.
Means: As a nice side effect an incubator project could be seen as big 
Phobos unit test
my 2 cents
Aug 15 2010
parent reply simendsjo <simen.endsjo pandavre.com> writes:
On 15.08.2010 23:24, BLS wrote:

 But somehow I am not able to figure out what your opinion is regarding
 an incubator project :)


Well.. I think it's a good idea, but I don't really think I have an 
opinion. I have no idea how patches are dealt with, and I'm new to D, 
phobos.

If you're really, really bored, read on for a long rant:

(serious rant ahead..)
..
..
..
(still bored?...)



If patches isn't attended to it's better to have a a "scrapple" project 
like tango.
Just require the boost, or compatible, license and let the phobos core 
developers pick and refactor as they like.

I haven't gotten the idea it's a PhD mentality now, people get's picked 
up as core developers from good contributions (from bugzilla?, but maybe 
they're all PhD's :) ).

Can't you just set up a project at dsource (phobos_incubus or 
something), put up a lot of code you've done, and announce it? I'm sure 
a lot will follow.

I'm "new" to D (have coded _one_ nontrivial project in d1 between 07-09, 
but no d2 experience) and from what I see, several people have a lot of 
_almost_ the same templates in their libraries (mostly type/traits stuff).
Nobody has taken the time to go through these, generalized them, and put 
them to phobos.

Hopefully, with an initiative like this, people with put a lot of 
"almost" generalized code from their libraries into the public so 
std.traits++ can grow.

It's easy to get into the "give me what I want" mode, but I don't pay 
any money, and as far as I know, there are nobody's actually making any 
money of D.
No companies are supporting D either financially or with success stories 
(outside digitalmars that is a _one_ man army(!) ).
There are very few contractors - and none of these are making much money 
of D.
D still have very few contributors, some maintaining the gnu frontend 
(d1), some lcc (d1) and walter+co(d1/d2).
I still dream of the day when D has a D frontend, backend and is 
implemented as SaaS so every IDE has good support for it :)

But... The fact that d2 is not stable yet (despite of the fact that 
Andreis book should end this) is a huge problem. When will actually D be 
stable??? I used it a couple of years ago, AFTER it has been made 
stable, and it was a really pain in the ass!... I'm actually for 
breaking compability between versions in an evolving language, but in 
the case on D1 I had to update _ALL_ libraries I was working on... With 
_every_ compiler release!

But; disregard the last paragraph! Things have changes, and this might 
not be any problem anymore! I've just started testing D2, and it seems 
like a really

Then again... Many people have been spoiled by Eclipse, Visual Studio 
and their kind, so it's difficult to switch to "notepad" mode.

Blasphemy :)

And for the record.. I implemented a "larger" (30k incl. 
comment/whitespace/scope) program in D1, but it went to hell! I had 
really high hopes, but in the business world, there are no DB drivers, 
there are no disconnected DataSet's, poor wsdl support etc. etc. etc.

As a side note: dsource is a great idea, but it has detoriated 
(rusted... I don't know how to spell it :) ) so it's pretty useless as a 
lookup resource for libraries.
Probably 50-70% of the projects is abandoned (or is written for an 
ancient dmd version).
Two new columns and the site would have been ten times as useful;
"last time updated" and "d version(s)".

And as another side note...: If you had a contribute button on you're 
site and that was distributed among those involved in D and phobos... 
Would it help the progress? As I see now, there are large bugfix 
releases every month and large changes to phobos too, so I wont complain..

So... How can the little man help?
Aug 15 2010
parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
On 16/08/2010 01:55, simendsjo wrote:

 (still bored?...)


No.  Think you have made some good points.

Scrabble :
--Due to the fact that nobody cares about scrabble and scrabble contains 
x tiny not up-to-date projects the questions remains.. why not having a 
centralized project ?
Aug 15 2010
parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello BLS,


 On 16/08/2010 01:55, simendsjo wrote:
 

 (still bored?...)
 


 No.  Think you have made some good points.
 
 Scrabble :
 --Due to the fact that nobody cares about scrabble and scrabble
 contains
 x tiny not up-to-date projects the questions remains.. why not having
 a
 centralized project ?


My question still remains; If it's not what you want, why not turn scrapple 
into what you are looking for? I'd be more than willing to help. (BTW, Unless 
you actively cull part, what you are looking for will end up with a bunch 
of old projects.

p.s. it's not scrabble: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrapple

-- 
... <IXOYE><
Aug 16 2010
parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisprog gmail.com> writes:
On Monday 16 August 2010 21:20:22 BCS wrote:

 (BTW,
 Unless you actively cull part, what you are looking for will end up with a
 bunch of old projects.


Eventually, we're really going to need a system for culling code - especially
if 
pretty much _anyone_ can post there. It may need to have to do with age, or 
perhaps we can vote on them, and stuff that never gets enough votes will be 
removed, or maybe it'll just be based on how recently a project has been 
updated... Anyway, we're going to need some sort of mechanism for culling code, 
so that it doesn't get full of cruft.

And by that same token, we may want a voting system to indicate stuff that
people 
want in Phobos. Obviously, it will always be up to the Phobos devs as to
whether 
something ends up in Phobos or not, but if a lot of people want a particular 
module or type of module to get into Phobos, then that would be an indication 
that the Phobos devs should look at adding it (or something similar) to Phobos. 
Just because something is highly quality does not mean that it should be in 
Phobos, and even if something is not of the best quality, the fact that it's 
popular could indicate that we need something like it in Phobos even if the 
exact code in question needs work.

So, as part of setting this up, we are going to need to set up a system of some 
kind to remove stuff from that should be removed as well as to indicate what
stuff 
likely should be added to Phobos.

Overall, I think that this is a great idea, but if it's going to really go 
somewhere and be useful, it definitely needs to be organized.

- Jonathan M Davis
Aug 16 2010
parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Jonathan,


 On Monday 16 August 2010 21:20:22 BCS wrote:
 

 (BTW,
 Unless you actively cull part, what you are looking for will end up
 with a
 bunch of old projects.


 Eventually, we're really going to need a system for culling code -
 especially if pretty much _anyone_ can post there. It may need to have
 to do with age, or perhaps we can vote on them, and stuff that never
 gets enough votes will be removed, or maybe it'll just be based on how
 recently a project has been updated... Anyway, we're going to need
 some sort of mechanism for culling code, so that it doesn't get full
 of cruft.


Data storage is cheap. Just cull the links to it.

-- 
... <IXOYE><
Aug 17 2010
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisprog gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, August 17, 2010 13:38:39 BCS wrote:

 Hello Jonathan,
 

 On Monday 16 August 2010 21:20:22 BCS wrote:

 (BTW,
 Unless you actively cull part, what you are looking for will end up
 with a
 bunch of old projects.


 
 Eventually, we're really going to need a system for culling code -
 especially if pretty much _anyone_ can post there. It may need to have
 to do with age, or perhaps we can vote on them, and stuff that never
 gets enough votes will be removed, or maybe it'll just be based on how
 recently a project has been updated... Anyway, we're going to need
 some sort of mechanism for culling code, so that it doesn't get full
 of cruft.


 
 Data storage is cheap. Just cull the links to it.


I wasn't talking about data storage. I don't really care what's sitting there
on 
the server. The issue is what is listed as being there. I think that dsource 
shows just how bad it can get when you list a bunch of projects and just keep 
adding to them. We don't generally want projects staying there forever. I think 
that projects are likely to fall in one of 3 categories.

1. They belong in Phobos. At some point, it will be decided to move them into 
Phobos, and they can be removed from scrapple (or whatever it is that we're 
calling this group of projects).

2. They don't belong in Phobos and shouldn't be left in scrapple. They're not 
maintained, or their quality is too low, or whatever, and they shouldn't be 
kept.

3. They aren't going to make it into Phobos but are good enough that a lot of 
people use them. So, for whatever reason, they're deemed worth having around
but 
don't make the cut for Phobos.


At some point, it's going to need to be decided for each project in which group 
it belongs (be it because Phobos devs incorporate it, or due to votes for or 
against, or lack of maintenance or whatever). If we don't do that, we're going 
to have a large pile of projects that people have to sort through, and it's 
going to be a problem.

Whether projects which are removed are removed from disk is more or less 
irrelevant. What's relevant is whether they stay listed in scrapple. _That_ is 
the cruft that I'm concerned about.

- Jonathan M Davis
Aug 17 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent %u <e mail.com> writes:
== Quote from BLS (windevguy hotmail.de)'s article

 A lot of unused source is laying around, a lot of (not yet)
 written/complete stuff is just waiting for feedback. People have ideas
 and want to bring in some good stuff.
 Now it is hard to contribute to Phobos. (and I understand)
 Why not having an incubator project where people can bring in useful
 stuff without having an PhD.
 Limitation should be BOOST license and default coding style. That's it.
 --- We all know it ---
 Phobos still lacks ; nntp, pop3, imap.. i18n.. containers, graphs,
 db-connection and db-abstraction tools. and what the heck..
 ---
 So IMHO an incubator project would make sense. What do you think ?
 Bjoern


vote++

I would expect to find a download there with all the 'not yet ready for official
release' code in it, packaged as an extension to Phobos.
Aug 15 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
You mean like a testing branch of Phobos where new stuff is tried out?
Sounds like a cool idea to me.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:07 PM, BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> wrote:


 A lot of unused source is laying around, a lot of (not yet)
 written/complete stuff is just waiting for feedback. People have ideas and
 want to bring in some good stuff.
 Now it is hard to contribute to Phobos. (and I understand)
 Why not having an incubator project where people can bring in useful stuff
 without having an PhD.
 Limitation should be BOOST license and default coding style. That's it.
 --- We all know it ---
 Phobos still lacks ; nntp, pop3, imap.. i18n.. containers, graphs,
 db-connection and db-abstraction tools. and what the heck..
 ---

 So IMHO an incubator project would make sense. What do you think ?

 Bjoern
Aug 15 2010
parent BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
On 16/08/2010 01:48, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 You mean like a testing branch of Phobos where new stuff is tried out?
 Sounds like a cool idea to me.


Exactly.
Maybe some of the incubator stuff will become part of Phobos, other 
stuff will not 'cause it is probably not very useful, too exotic, or 
simply horrible implemented.

I think such a project could :
1) Encourage people to contribute.
2) Detect where Phobos is weak /Detect Phobos Bugs /Increase D Quality
3) Fill library gaps
Aug 15 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisprog gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday 15 August 2010 16:48:37 Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 You mean like a testing branch of Phobos where new stuff is tried out?
 Sounds like a cool idea to me.


Actually, it sounds a bit like a Boost for D, only probably less organized.
That 
is, it would contain stuff that folks would _like_ to get in the standard
library 
and give it an opportunity to be used and ironed out before getting put into 
Phobos if the Phobos devs decide that it's good enough to put in there.

Overall, I think that it sounds like a good idea, but I would be worried about 
it deteriorating in a manner similar to dsource where you have a bunch of old, 
unmaintained stuff there that's going nowhere and just serving to confuse
people 
looking for useful stuff.

- Jonathan M Davis
Aug 15 2010
parent BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
On 16/08/2010 02:51, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 Actually, it sounds a bit like a Boost for D, only probably less organized.
That
 is, it would contain stuff that folks would_like_  to get in the standard
library
 and give it an opportunity to be used and ironed out before getting put into
 Phobos if the Phobos devs decide that it's good enough to put in there.


Exactly!

 Overall, I think that it sounds like a good idea, but I would be worried about
 it deteriorating in a manner similar to dsource where you have a bunch of old,
 unmaintained stuff there that's going nowhere and just serving to confuse
people
 looking for useful stuff.


Good point. Unmaintained stuff is indeed the worst case.
You can of course argue, that incubator stuff which does not make it 
into Phobos is a) not good enough, b)too exotic, c) poor designed, 
..whatever.
In other words : The only guarantee that stuff is not 
outdated/unmaintained is/should be :
If it is part of Phobos it is up to date.
Aug 15 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello BLS,


 A lot of unused source is laying around, a lot of (not yet)
 written/complete stuff is just waiting for feedback. People have ideas
 and want to bring in some good stuff.
 Now it is hard to contribute to Phobos. (and I understand)
 Why not having an incubator project where people can bring in useful
 stuff without having an PhD.
 Limitation should be BOOST license and default coding style. That's
 it.
 --- We all know it ---
 Phobos still lacks ; nntp, pop3, imap.. i18n.. containers, graphs,
 db-connection and db-abstraction tools. and what the heck..
 ---
 So IMHO an incubator project would make sense. What do you think ?
 
 Bjoern
 



http://dsource.org/projects/scrapple 

??


-- 
... <IXOYE><
Aug 15 2010
parent reply BLS <windevguy hotmail.de> writes:
On 16/08/2010 02:59, BCS wrote:

 Hello BLS,


Hello BCS, :)

yeah know of course about scrapple. wouldn't it be better if f.i. Units 
are part of a "Centralized" bigger Incubator project, instead of being a 
bit lost somewhere on dsource?
Bjoern
Aug 15 2010
parent BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello BLS,


 On 16/08/2010 02:59, BCS wrote:
 

 Hello BLS,
 


 Hello BCS, :)
 
 yeah know of course about scrapple. wouldn't it be better if f.i.
 Units
 are part of a "Centralized" bigger Incubator project, instead of being
 a
 bit lost somewhere on dsource?


What I'm suggesting is that scrappe *be* a centralized big incubator project, 
instead of being a bit lost somewhere on dsource.



 Bjoern


-- 
... <IXOYE><
Aug 16 2010
prev sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
simendsjo Wrote:


 On 15.08.2010 19:07, BLS wrote:

 default coding style


 
 And that is..? 
 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3480363/d-phobos-style-guide
 
 


http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/dstyle.html
Aug 15 2010