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digitalmars.D - D is really cool

reply nkm1 <t4nk074 openmailbox.org> writes:
So I spent last week (or so) learning D, and it's a great 
language.
Initially I was apprehensive about GC (non generational, 
conservative...), but now I realize that I can use D as an 
improved C (combining malloc and GC :). I always liked C better 
than C++ anyway.
I know that every bloody n00b here says something about GC :), so 
now it's my turn. I do hope that non-GC experience will get 
better in the future. D is cool, though. So, just saying.
May 09 2017
parent reply Faux Amis <faux amis.com> writes:
On 2017-05-10 07:24, nkm1 wrote:

 So I spent last week (or so) learning D, and it's a great language.
 Initially I was apprehensive about GC (non generational, 
 conservative...), but now I realize that I can use D as an improved C 
 (combining malloc and GC :). I always liked C better than C++ anyway.
 I know that every bloody n00b here says something about GC :), so now 
 it's my turn. I do hope that non-GC experience will get better in the 
 future. D is cool, though. So, just saying.


Somehow totally missed your message, welcome!

After reading all the GC comments on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6as1di/serialization_in_d/
I wish more people could just try it out and experience why the D GC is 
a handy thing to have on hand.

Well, good to hear you get it.
Have fun and keep on D-ing!
May 12 2017
parent reply Mike B Johnson <Mikey Ikes.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 May 2017 at 22:05:54 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:

 On 2017-05-10 07:24, nkm1 wrote:

 So I spent last week (or so) learning D, and it's a great 
 language.
 Initially I was apprehensive about GC (non generational, 
 conservative...), but now I realize that I can use D as an 
 improved C (combining malloc and GC :). I always liked C 
 better than C++ anyway.
 I know that every bloody n00b here says something about GC :), 
 so now it's my turn. I do hope that non-GC experience will get 
 better in the future. D is cool, though. So, just saying.


 Somehow totally missed your message, welcome!

 After reading all the GC comments on reddit:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6as1di/serialization_in_d/
 I wish more people could just try it out and experience why the 
 D GC is a handy thing to have on hand.


For who? It is a nightmare(ok, not that bad) for some.
May 12 2017
parent reply nkm1 <t4nk074 openmailbox.org> writes:
On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 02:53:16 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:

 On Friday, 12 May 2017 at 22:05:54 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:

 Somehow totally missed your message, welcome!

 After reading all the GC comments on reddit:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6as1di/serialization_in_d/
 I wish more people could just try it out and experience why 
 the D GC is a handy thing to have on hand.


 For who? It is a nightmare(ok, not that bad) for some.


I don't think it's about GC per se, it's the sort of GC that D 
has, in particular that it has to scan all memory (that has 
pointers) to do collections. If D had the kind of GC that 

threads and learned why D's GC cannot (or should not) be 
optimized like that, but yeah, scanning so much memory is not 
acceptable in some situations. And sure, there are ways to deal 
with that - like not allocating, or using malloc (or that 
experimental allocator thing that is not totally clear to me :), 
or using RAII (currently has some bugs), or RefCounted, or 
Atilla's library... but, as someone on Reddit said, at the moment 
that is rather "unergonomic".
I'm sure that will get better over time, though. At least I don't 
see why not. Most of what is needed is already there.
May 12 2017
parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 06:47:54 UTC, nkm1 wrote:


 Atilla's library... but, as someone on Reddit said, at the 
 moment that is rather "unergonomic".
 I'm sure that will get better over time, though. At least I 
 don't see why not. Most of what is needed is already there.


The problem with trying to satisfy Reddit is that they want the 
GC removed from the language. They want it off by default, they 
want all language features to work without the GC, they want all 
of Phobos to be free of the GC, and they want all code anyone 
else writes in D to be written without the GC in case they want 
to call that code.

I'm all for adding additional features to the language for those 
that prefer to avoid the GC. But that's not what the anti-GC 
coalition is asking for.
May 13 2017
next sibling parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 13/05/2017 12:05 PM, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 06:47:54 UTC, nkm1 wrote:


 Atilla's library... but, as someone on Reddit said, at the moment that
 is rather "unergonomic".
 I'm sure that will get better over time, though. At least I don't see
 why not. Most of what is needed is already there.


 The problem with trying to satisfy Reddit is that they want the GC
 removed from the language. They want it off by default, they want all
 language features to work without the GC, they want all of Phobos to be
 free of the GC, and they want all code anyone else writes in D to be
 written without the GC in case they want to call that code.

 I'm all for adding additional features to the language for those that
 prefer to avoid the GC. But that's not what the anti-GC coalition is
 asking for.


Quite frankly if the GC was removed from D, you won't be seeing me 
around here anymore.
I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't alone in this case. Good chance 
there would be enough of us to realistically start our own language.
May 13 2017
parent reply Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Sat, 2017-05-13 at 12:20 +0100, rikki cattermole via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On 13/05/2017 12:05 PM, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 06:47:54 UTC, nkm1 wrote:
=20

 Atilla's library... but, as someone on Reddit said, at the moment
 that
 is rather "unergonomic".
 I'm sure that will get better over time, though. At least I don't
 see
 why not. Most of what is needed is already there.






How many people on Reddit are actual users of D. How many users on
Reddit are actually programmers rather than trolls?=20


 The problem with trying to satisfy Reddit is that they want the GC
 removed from the language. They want it off by default, they want
 all
 language features to work without the GC, they want all of Phobos
 to be
 free of the GC, and they want all code anyone else writes in D to
 be
 written without the GC in case they want to call that code.
=20
 I'm all for adding additional features to the language for those
 that
 prefer to avoid the GC. But that's not what the anti-GC coalition
 is
 asking for.




Reddit users seem to fancy themselves as powerful when most of the time
they are j     getting off on their own supposed self importance. An
excellent reasons to ignore them. Most of the programming world does,
from what I can see. Certainly none of the people I have contact with
in programming places who  make the decisions as to which programming
language to use for a projects care what happens on Reddit or what
Reddit users think.

The only people who matter in terms of the language D are the people on
the D mailing lists and meetings


 Quite frankly if the GC was removed from D, you won't be seeing me=20
 around here anymore.
 I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't alone in this case. Good chance=20
 there would be enough of us to realistically start our own language.


Currently Ds only selling point against C++, Go, and Rust is that it
has GC, and Go has far more traction that D. Oh and maybe channel
communication between processes (albeit heavyweight, and Rust has
something similar).

All in all ignore Reddit and get on with satisfying current users and
getting traction is the real world.

--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
May 13 2017
next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 05/13/2017 04:47 AM, Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d wrote:


 Currently Ds only selling point against C++, Go, and Rust is that it
 has GC, and Go has far more traction that D.


I'm confused. Go has GC, right?

Ali
May 13 2017
parent Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Sat, 2017-05-13 at 06:28 -0700, Ali =C3=87ehreli via Digitalmars-d wrote=
:

 On 05/13/2017 04:47 AM, Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d wrote:
=20
  > Currently Ds only selling point against C++, Go, and Rust is that
 it
  > has GC, and Go has far more traction that D.
=20
 I'm confused. Go has GC, right?
=20


I was glib with my language. Go definitely has GC and no intention of
ever allowing it to be switched off =E2=80=93 it would require language
changes.

Gos traction has been in Web. It is useful elsewhere, but is not really
gaining much traction in other areas that I can see.

--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
May 13 2017
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/13/17 7:47 AM, Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 All in all ignore Reddit and get on with satisfying current users and
 getting traction is the real world.


I have it on good authority that social media and community forums are 
important factor in deciding which language to experiment with at 
companies small and large. We need to improve interaction within our 
community forums and also improve our presence on the likes of reddit 
and hackernews. -- Andrei
May 13 2017
parent reply Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Sat, 2017-05-13 at 09:32 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-
d wrote:

 On 5/13/17 7:47 AM, Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 All in all ignore Reddit and get on with satisfying current users
 and
 getting traction is the real world.


=20
 I have it on good authority that social media and community forums
 are=20
 important factor in deciding which language to experiment with at=20
 companies small and large. We need to improve interaction within our=20
 community forums and also improve our presence on the likes of
 reddit=20
 and hackernews. -- Andrei


I suspect both observations must be right then with the determinant
being companies and/or areas of use. All this is anecdotal, there is no
statistically significant data. But then Reddit is mostly opinion and
advocacy research.

--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
May 13 2017
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 13:55:17 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

 anecdotal, there is no statistically significant data. But then 
 Reddit is mostly opinion and advocacy research.


In my experience /r/programming has rather poor quality, but 
/r/cpp and other more specific groups tend to be much better.

The only reason to read /r/programming is to get a feeling for 
trends... I guess.
May 14 2017
parent Juanjo Alvarez <gorthol protonmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 14 May 2017 at 16:08:59 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:

 On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 13:55:17 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

 anecdotal, there is no statistically significant data. But 
 then Reddit is mostly opinion and advocacy research.


 In my experience /r/programming has rather poor quality, but 
 /r/cpp and other more specific groups tend to be much better.

 The only reason to read /r/programming is to get a feeling for 
 trends... I guess.


/r/programming is full of Rust fanboys that think that their 
language is the End of all problems. It's not only D related 
articles - Swift, Kotlin or any article about any other emerging 
language will almost have more ocurrentes of the word "Rust" in 
the comments that the language the article is about.

Really toxic community.
May 15 2017
prev sibling parent Patrick Schluter <Patrick.Schluter bbox.fr> writes:
On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 11:05:26 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Saturday, 13 May 2017 at 06:47:54 UTC, nkm1 wrote:


 Atilla's library... but, as someone on Reddit said, at the 
 moment that is rather "unergonomic".
 I'm sure that will get better over time, though. At least I 
 don't see why not. Most of what is needed is already there.


 The problem with trying to satisfy Reddit is that they want the 
 GC removed from the language. They want it off by default, they 
 want all language features to work without the GC, they want 
 all of Phobos to be free of the GC, and they want all code 
 anyone else writes in D to be written without the GC in case 
 they want to call that code.

 I'm all for adding additional features to the language for 
 those that prefer to avoid the GC. But that's not what the 
 anti-GC coalition is asking for.


The worse is that most of this whiners don't even know how the GC 
in D works as made completely obvious by this thread [0].
This is the perfect illustration that most of the anti-GC brigade 
at reddit are out to lunch. I'm wondering if catering to these 
requirements is a good idea.

[0]: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6as1di/serialization_in_d/dhhvly2/
May 13 2017