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digitalmars.D - talks from IRC

reply a11e99z <black80 bk.ru> writes:
<ManTwo/2>	Hi - I'm an interested layperson occasionally 
procrastinating by reading discussions on the D forums.
<ManOne/1>	fun
<ManTwo/2>	To me the discussions frequently seem hostile
<ManTwo/2>	Is that common in communities like this?
<ManTwo/2>	I'm not skilled enough to contribute - and maybe if I 
had more substance, I wouldn't be bothered by style... but I 
nevertheless if the 'mood' of the community is turning off any 
potential more useful contributors than myself
<ManOne/1>	there are a lot of silly threads, i tend to just kinda 
ignore them
<ManOne/1>	but yeah i do think a lot of contributors are turned 
away by a few things like the threads
<ManTwo/2>	"Never offend people with style when you can offend 
them with substance"
<ManTwo/2>	Would setting a better 'mood' for the discussion be 
beneficial to the community? If yes, how might we go about 
achieving it?
<ManOne/1>	i don't know.
<ManFour/4>	    Quinn: They come here looking for the magic, 
hoping to find romance, when they can't find it anywhere else.
<ManFour/4>	    Robin: Maybe they will.
<ManFour/4>	    Quinn: It's an island, babe. If you didn't bring 
it here, you won't find it here.
<ManTwo/2>	Maybe I should ask a different question - what is the 
lowest hanging fruit in encouraging more skilled contributors to 
work on D? What is turning people off?
<ManFour/4>	did Alexandrescu hire a psychologist to figure this 
out? :)
<ManOne/1>	I personally don't like the resistance to change 
combined with a bit of perfectionism on PRs. I think if they 
would accept things more easily it would encourge more to try
<ManOne/1>	but on the other hand their worry is then we accept 
low quality junk and D starts to suck
<ManTwo/2>	Before your second message I was going to object with 
that exact worry -- is it possible to accept more things while 
keeping quality high? Perhaps it is.
<ManOne/1>	what i personally try to do is accept anything that is 
on the right track and then i'll fix it up myself instead of 
bugging them to do all the nitpicking stuff
<ManOne/1>	but idk if that woudl work for everyone else
<ManTwo/2>	Right - I think I have had that experience several 
times now that my (noob) contribution was accepted and fixed by 
the maintainer. It feels very welcoming and encouraging.
<ManTwo/2>	But doesn't that lead you to spend a lot of your time 
working on problems that volunteers found important and 
interesting rather than the highest priority things?
<ManOne/1>	the idea is similar to that of a loss leader in 
business... you lose money on one thign with the hopes of luring 
customers into your store where they'll buy other stuff while 
they're already there
<ManOne/1>	so i spend time now fixing your PR for you, then in 
the long run, hopefully, a few of those contributors stick around 
and start doing more serious work
<ManOne/1>	or i guess same idea as slightly risky investment
<ManTwo/2>	Does it make sense to have 'growing the community' an 
explicit goal of a programming language project, together with 
encouraging strategies like the one you just described?
<ManFour/4>	we should not accept, but only vote for some things 
about which we can discuss. clear vote with final pros and cons. 
right now savvy is drowning in a pile of water in a thread and a 
decision is made by 1-2 people based on some of their thoughts
<ManTwo/2>	ManFour/4: is that not just Benevolent Dictator For 
Life? That model seems to work for a lot of projects
<ManTwo/2>	I remember reading a post by Alexandrescu on how he 
has tried to mentor new contributors but eventually realized that 
most people do not want to be mentored and it was draining for him
<ManOne/1>	well not "mentored" in teh way andrei tried to do it
<ManOne/1>	like i said before he is a bit of a perfectionist and 
that doesn't help new people who need some encouragement
<ManTwo/2>	Is it possible to let perfectionism go while keeping 
quality high? Is, for example, the Linux perfectionist? Is Golang?
<ManOne/1>	i think it is possible
<ManTwo/2>	How do you do it?
<ManOne/1>	idk really
<ManOne/1>	i'm not a manager....
<ManFour/4>	I suspect that almost no one pays attention to PRs 
for the spec, meaning that the number of reviewers is even lower 
than it is for other repos, and we already have a problem with 
too few people reviewing stuff in general. I really should figure 
out how to find more time to spend on stuff like this.
<ManFour/4>	- Jonathan M Davis
<ManFour/4>	imo its not only for spec but most things
<ManTwo/2>	Is knowing about stuff like this what managers are 
good for? :P Maybe I can finally see a use for them then.
<ManOne/1>	good managers can motivate people
<ManTwo/2>	"Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is 
not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the 
direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is 
natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems 
than making others feel warm and fuzzy."
<ManTwo/2>	From: 
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#keepcool
<ManTwo/2>	I vaguely feel like I'm pushing for more warm and 
fuzzies directly contrary to hacker culture, meritocracy, 
competence and quality above all etc
<ManTwo/2>	Don't we come to open source to get away from 
managers? :P
<ManTwo/2>	But on the other hand I also vaguely feel like this 
community is more hostile than other open source communities.
<ManFour/4>	about quotes.. "To me the discussions frequently seem 
hostile".. so its ok, we dont need pink party here
<ManTwo/2>	My intuition says that there's something here that I 
don't fully understand, but which is related to why some 
communities function better than others.
<ManTwo/2>	Can you have a meritocracy, high quality, that is also 
welcoming and multiplies the number of contributors
<ManOne/1>	hacker culture isn't necessarily good
<ManTwo/2>	but some parts are good
<ManOne/1>	yeah
<ManTwo/2>	I'm worried about "Chesterton's fence"
<ManTwo/2>	Until I understand what parts are critical and which 
are unhelpful, I'm worried about throwing any of it out
<ManTwo/2>	You can't reduce "perfectionism" until you understand 
how to keep quality high without it
<ManOne/1>	omg d rox so much i am writing a form using my new web 
framework and like it is just so elegant in so many ways
<ManTwo/2>	Link?
<ManOne/1>	it is proprietary at this time
<ManOne/1>	but like i just wrote this function int 
createEvent(string name, string description, EventCreation[int] 
groups) and the way the params went from web to it is cool
<ManFour/4>	imo Walter is a conservative. in fact, he does not 
want changes in the language because he is afraid of breaking the 
code already written by many. the further the more his resistance 
to innovation will be. we need an alternative branch D-3-4, in 
which everything new can be driven around. it may be incompatible 
with the previous one, but such evolution will allow to progress 
for many years to come
<ManFour/4>	each branch will be supports (lets say) 3 years.. 
then it deprecates like python2 vs 3
<ManTwo/2>	Would D survive a python2 v python3? That was not an 
easy transition
<ManFour/4>	and I didnt see D compiler sources but think that it 
overcomplicated.. compiler is "simple": AST, selection right 
func, alloc/dealloc objs, actions for copy/move objs, some kind 
of IR, optimizations that can be done by LLVM.. probably that is 
all.. so if Walter allow to immixture in every such parts and 
describe how and what.. probably compiler will run to future with 
big steps.. (to bright or to disaster is other question)
<ManOne/1>	time for me to go ttyl
<ManTwo/2>	Thanks ManOne/1 for your thoughts!
<ManThree/3>	cya ManOne/1
<ManFour/4>	and yes, i think that need some simple visible poll 
for what to do, final pro and cons for each question, what's 
happening now, who is mentor and responsible for such part.. 
something like scrum board maybe
<ManThree/3>	ManFour/4 as far as compilers go DMD is pretty simple
<ManThree/3>	as far as programs in general go dmd could be simpler
<ManFour/4>	discussion on forums.. discussion on prs (that i 
never read yet).. need thumb ups (more ones - more adequate/good 
answer/proposition).. u just cannot read 300 messages without 
some points
<ManThree/3>	the discussions are not for everyone though
<ManThree/3>	it's a rather small circle who actually reads and 
understands them
<ManFour/4>	yes from 100 people on forum talks only probably 
ten.. and people that making decision only 1-3.. nobody wants 
talks by some reason, but all can vote with viewing some pro and 
cons
<ManThree/3>	I see that's why you'd like a more structured 
approach it's understandable
<ManFour/4>	need some like/dislike system.. its shows that this 
point worth attention and other not.. reading all big thread.. at 
the end u forgot who is killer and who is detective
<ManFour/4>	and scrum board can show who is this man and what is 
do.. for now I know Andrei and Walter is core, CyberShadow 
probably admin, kinke probably from LDC, 2 book authors by name, 
and one beardman Jonathan Davis, who sometimes talks smart things
<ManFour/4>	something like this :) who and what his do, who need 
some help, to whom I can help.. darkness
Jul 07 2019
next sibling parent reply a11e99z <black80 bk.ru> writes:
On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 14:25:27 UTC, a11e99z wrote:

 


I want more visuality for D.dev processes:
polls, decisions, tasks board, persons, thumb ups for selective 
reading, simplifying the process of being part of it
Jul 07 2019
parent reply a11e99z <black80 bk.ru> writes:
On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 15:17:15 UTC, a11e99z wrote:

 On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 14:25:27 UTC, a11e99z wrote:

 


 I want more visuality for D.dev processes:
 polls, decisions, tasks board, persons, thumb ups for selective 
 reading, simplifying the process of being part of it


Poll does not give 100% right decision but it gives numbers at 
hand maybe 10x times more than discussion forum (usually ~5 men) 
cuz to vote is easy than discuss "why somebody need listen my 
opinion? there are smarter men" and stay passive or for some 
another reason.
Links for every poll case to final page of reasonable pro and 
cons (some github markdown page) allow to make reasonable vote. 
and u dont need read 30-50 pages of discussion without any hints 
(thumb ups) what is valuable and what is not, and where 40%-70% 
is water and offtopic.
More numbers u have - more reasonable and right decision u will 
make.

Andrei always try to stir up listeners at conferences.
So here is same thing: need to involve people to share thoughts 
and process to making some right decisions.
Need some visuality of process and gamification.

And people should to know D heroes.
Tasks board allow to see process and people who move train 
forward and tasks that waiting solution.
It can be useful for donors too, they can see real backlog, 
direction and progress of it.
Jul 07 2019
parent reply a11e99z <black80 bk.ru> writes:
On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 16:30:16 UTC, a11e99z wrote:

 On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 15:17:15 UTC, a11e99z wrote:

 






You can add "Wish List" too to site where people can vote for 
some feature with their wallets. Yes, for real $$$/crypto.
With link to final pro and contra. Some details will be 
public/for_all some goes to private kitchen.
And as addition poll "Pre wish list" where people can add/request 
some feature and when count of votes will be lets say 100 uniques 
it goes to "Wish List" for clarity/no_spam last one.
Yes probably with 200 uniques per month for now (idk real 
numbers) this is not good idea, but some day will come when will 
be 300 than 400 uniques. (Need to involve people.)
When enough money accumulates to implement the feature, go ahead.
Jul 07 2019
parent Yatheendra <3df4 gmail.ru> writes:
I so tried not to opine on this, but ... sigh, just too tempting.

My guess is that newbies who are otherwise getting by on C/C++, 
understand the gems in D, and can both live with some 
frustrations/limitations ... and accept that they aren't good 
enough to be language designers who can know how to add a 
feature. D maintainers would know it, but it seems to me that the 
chasm between programming in D and developing D itself isn't as 
big as in, say Rust or (gasp!) C++.

It is probably the "scripting crowd" (not being pejorative, I 
script OK myself) that sees the ease of programming in D and can 
think of many feature additions, which may just not jive with D's 
underpinnings as a systems language (as an aside, the clamour for 
maps in Erlang comes to mind). I guess discussions around struct 
constructors, const, etc. are new to them.

Those core topics are vigorously argued in the forums by people 
who have "crossed the chasm", early adopters who are heavily 
invested in D intellectually, emotionally and even use it 
professionally. Lurkers and newbies would have to realize that 
these are "above their paygrade", so to speak.

But not drawing any conclusions from those discussions must be 
difficult. I think such discussions could be in a new "Pro" 
forum, so that people can see it for what it is (I hope the pros 
aren't bashful to "tag" their discussions as such!). Or maybe 
just discuss in some unnumbered DIP PR ...
Jul 08 2019
prev sibling parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 07.07.19 16:25, a11e99z wrote:

 <ManTwo/2>    Hi - I'm an interested layperson occasionally 
 procrastinating by reading discussions on the D forums.
 <ManOne/1>    fun
 <ManTwo/2>    To me the discussions frequently seem hostile


Emotions don't carry well over text messages. Also note that not 
everyone shares the same sensibilities and it is good to have a certain 
amount of tolerance for differing views and behaviors.

For example, while I don't get offended on the internet (because there 
is no point), if I did, it would be over things like this: 
https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues/9422

In that discussion, someone is given a link to a code of conduct that 
doesn't even obviously apply, for writing a post on their area of 
expertise in a style that is standard in their community.


 ...
 <ManTwo/2>    Would setting a better 'mood' for the discussion be 
 beneficial to the community?


I don't think so, especially if it is attempted in a way that restricts 
speech more vigorously than it is done now. As far as I know, we have 
already lost productive contributors over forum moderation. (But I 
wasn't around for it so there is no way for me to tell if it was 
justified or not -- another drawback of deleting posts that are not 
obviously spam.)


 If yes, how might we go about achieving it?


By participating in discussions and setting a good example for others to 
follow.
Jul 12 2019
parent Jonathan Marler <johnnymarler gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 July 2019 at 15:39:52 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote:

 On 07.07.19 16:25, a11e99z wrote:

 [...]


 Emotions don't carry well over text messages. Also note that 
 not everyone shares the same sensibilities and it is good to 
 have a certain amount of tolerance for differing views and 
 behaviors.

 [...]


Agreed. Set a good example and others will follow suit. These 
forums can be hostile sometimes, which breeds more hostility. The 
best way to change it is to breed encouragement and good will and 
ignore the hostility.
Jul 13 2019