digitalmars.D - talks from IRC
Hi - I'm an interested layperson occasionally
- a11e99z (4/5) Jul 07 I want more visuality for D.dev processes:
- a11e99z (22/27) Jul 07 Poll does not give 100% right decision but it gives numbers at
- Timon Gehr (18/26) Jul 12 Emotions don't carry well over text messages. Also note that not
- Jonathan Marler (5/12) Jul 13 Agreed. Set a good example and others will follow suit. These
<ManTwo/2> Hi - I'm an interested layperson occasionally procrastinating by reading discussions on the D forums. <ManOne/1> fun <ManTwo/2> To me the discussions frequently seem hostile <ManTwo/2> Is that common in communities like this? <ManTwo/2> I'm not skilled enough to contribute - and maybe if I had more substance, I wouldn't be bothered by style... but I nevertheless if the 'mood' of the community is turning off any potential more useful contributors than myself <ManOne/1> there are a lot of silly threads, i tend to just kinda ignore them <ManOne/1> but yeah i do think a lot of contributors are turned away by a few things like the threads <ManTwo/2> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance" <ManTwo/2> Would setting a better 'mood' for the discussion be beneficial to the community? If yes, how might we go about achieving it? <ManOne/1> i don't know. <ManFour/4> Quinn: They come here looking for the magic, hoping to find romance, when they can't find it anywhere else. <ManFour/4> Robin: Maybe they will. <ManFour/4> Quinn: It's an island, babe. If you didn't bring it here, you won't find it here. <ManTwo/2> Maybe I should ask a different question - what is the lowest hanging fruit in encouraging more skilled contributors to work on D? What is turning people off? <ManFour/4> did Alexandrescu hire a psychologist to figure this out? :) <ManOne/1> I personally don't like the resistance to change combined with a bit of perfectionism on PRs. I think if they would accept things more easily it would encourge more to try <ManOne/1> but on the other hand their worry is then we accept low quality junk and D starts to suck <ManTwo/2> Before your second message I was going to object with that exact worry -- is it possible to accept more things while keeping quality high? Perhaps it is. <ManOne/1> what i personally try to do is accept anything that is on the right track and then i'll fix it up myself instead of bugging them to do all the nitpicking stuff <ManOne/1> but idk if that woudl work for everyone else <ManTwo/2> Right - I think I have had that experience several times now that my (noob) contribution was accepted and fixed by the maintainer. It feels very welcoming and encouraging. <ManTwo/2> But doesn't that lead you to spend a lot of your time working on problems that volunteers found important and interesting rather than the highest priority things? <ManOne/1> the idea is similar to that of a loss leader in business... you lose money on one thign with the hopes of luring customers into your store where they'll buy other stuff while they're already there <ManOne/1> so i spend time now fixing your PR for you, then in the long run, hopefully, a few of those contributors stick around and start doing more serious work <ManOne/1> or i guess same idea as slightly risky investment <ManTwo/2> Does it make sense to have 'growing the community' an explicit goal of a programming language project, together with encouraging strategies like the one you just described? <ManFour/4> we should not accept, but only vote for some things about which we can discuss. clear vote with final pros and cons. right now savvy is drowning in a pile of water in a thread and a decision is made by 1-2 people based on some of their thoughts <ManTwo/2> ManFour/4: is that not just Benevolent Dictator For Life? That model seems to work for a lot of projects <ManTwo/2> I remember reading a post by Alexandrescu on how he has tried to mentor new contributors but eventually realized that most people do not want to be mentored and it was draining for him <ManOne/1> well not "mentored" in teh way andrei tried to do it <ManOne/1> like i said before he is a bit of a perfectionist and that doesn't help new people who need some encouragement <ManTwo/2> Is it possible to let perfectionism go while keeping quality high? Is, for example, the Linux perfectionist? Is Golang? <ManOne/1> i think it is possible <ManTwo/2> How do you do it? <ManOne/1> idk really <ManOne/1> i'm not a manager.... <ManFour/4> I suspect that almost no one pays attention to PRs for the spec, meaning that the number of reviewers is even lower than it is for other repos, and we already have a problem with too few people reviewing stuff in general. I really should figure out how to find more time to spend on stuff like this. <ManFour/4> - Jonathan M Davis <ManFour/4> imo its not only for spec but most things <ManTwo/2> Is knowing about stuff like this what managers are good for? :P Maybe I can finally see a use for them then. <ManOne/1> good managers can motivate people <ManTwo/2> "Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy." <ManTwo/2> From: http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#keepcool <ManTwo/2> I vaguely feel like I'm pushing for more warm and fuzzies directly contrary to hacker culture, meritocracy, competence and quality above all etc <ManTwo/2> Don't we come to open source to get away from managers? :P <ManTwo/2> But on the other hand I also vaguely feel like this community is more hostile than other open source communities. <ManFour/4> about quotes.. "To me the discussions frequently seem hostile".. so its ok, we dont need pink party here <ManTwo/2> My intuition says that there's something here that I don't fully understand, but which is related to why some communities function better than others. <ManTwo/2> Can you have a meritocracy, high quality, that is also welcoming and multiplies the number of contributors <ManOne/1> hacker culture isn't necessarily good <ManTwo/2> but some parts are good <ManOne/1> yeah <ManTwo/2> I'm worried about "Chesterton's fence" <ManTwo/2> Until I understand what parts are critical and which are unhelpful, I'm worried about throwing any of it out <ManTwo/2> You can't reduce "perfectionism" until you understand how to keep quality high without it <ManOne/1> omg d rox so much i am writing a form using my new web framework and like it is just so elegant in so many ways <ManTwo/2> Link? <ManOne/1> it is proprietary at this time <ManOne/1> but like i just wrote this function int createEvent(string name, string description, EventCreation[int] groups) and the way the params went from web to it is cool <ManFour/4> imo Walter is a conservative. in fact, he does not want changes in the language because he is afraid of breaking the code already written by many. the further the more his resistance to innovation will be. we need an alternative branch D-3-4, in which everything new can be driven around. it may be incompatible with the previous one, but such evolution will allow to progress for many years to come <ManFour/4> each branch will be supports (lets say) 3 years.. then it deprecates like python2 vs 3 <ManTwo/2> Would D survive a python2 v python3? That was not an easy transition <ManFour/4> and I didnt see D compiler sources but think that it overcomplicated.. compiler is "simple": AST, selection right func, alloc/dealloc objs, actions for copy/move objs, some kind of IR, optimizations that can be done by LLVM.. probably that is all.. so if Walter allow to immixture in every such parts and describe how and what.. probably compiler will run to future with big steps.. (to bright or to disaster is other question) <ManOne/1> time for me to go ttyl <ManTwo/2> Thanks ManOne/1 for your thoughts! <ManThree/3> cya ManOne/1 <ManFour/4> and yes, i think that need some simple visible poll for what to do, final pro and cons for each question, what's happening now, who is mentor and responsible for such part.. something like scrum board maybe <ManThree/3> ManFour/4 as far as compilers go DMD is pretty simple <ManThree/3> as far as programs in general go dmd could be simpler <ManFour/4> discussion on forums.. discussion on prs (that i never read yet).. need thumb ups (more ones - more adequate/good answer/proposition).. u just cannot read 300 messages without some points <ManThree/3> the discussions are not for everyone though <ManThree/3> it's a rather small circle who actually reads and understands them <ManFour/4> yes from 100 people on forum talks only probably ten.. and people that making decision only 1-3.. nobody wants talks by some reason, but all can vote with viewing some pro and cons <ManThree/3> I see that's why you'd like a more structured approach it's understandable <ManFour/4> need some like/dislike system.. its shows that this point worth attention and other not.. reading all big thread.. at the end u forgot who is killer and who is detective <ManFour/4> and scrum board can show who is this man and what is do.. for now I know Andrei and Walter is core, CyberShadow probably admin, kinke probably from LDC, 2 book authors by name, and one beardman Jonathan Davis, who sometimes talks smart things <ManFour/4> something like this :) who and what his do, who need some help, to whom I can help.. darkness
On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 14:25:27 UTC, a11e99z wrote:I want more visuality for D.dev processes: polls, decisions, tasks board, persons, thumb ups for selective reading, simplifying the process of being part of it
On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 15:17:15 UTC, a11e99z wrote:On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 14:25:27 UTC, a11e99z wrote:Poll does not give 100% right decision but it gives numbers at hand maybe 10x times more than discussion forum (usually ~5 men) cuz to vote is easy than discuss "why somebody need listen my opinion? there are smarter men" and stay passive or for some another reason. Links for every poll case to final page of reasonable pro and cons (some github markdown page) allow to make reasonable vote. and u dont need read 30-50 pages of discussion without any hints (thumb ups) what is valuable and what is not, and where 40%-70% is water and offtopic. More numbers u have - more reasonable and right decision u will make. Andrei always try to stir up listeners at conferences. So here is same thing: need to involve people to share thoughts and process to making some right decisions. Need some visuality of process and gamification. And people should to know D heroes. Tasks board allow to see process and people who move train forward and tasks that waiting solution. It can be useful for donors too, they can see real backlog, direction and progress of it.I want more visuality for D.dev processes: polls, decisions, tasks board, persons, thumb ups for selective reading, simplifying the process of being part of it
On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 16:30:16 UTC, a11e99z wrote:On Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 15:17:15 UTC, a11e99z wrote:You can add "Wish List" too to site where people can vote for some feature with their wallets. Yes, for real $$$/crypto. With link to final pro and contra. Some details will be public/for_all some goes to private kitchen. And as addition poll "Pre wish list" where people can add/request some feature and when count of votes will be lets say 100 uniques it goes to "Wish List" for clarity/no_spam last one. Yes probably with 200 uniques per month for now (idk real numbers) this is not good idea, but some day will come when will be 300 than 400 uniques. (Need to involve people.) When enough money accumulates to implement the feature, go ahead.
Yatheendra <3df4 gmail.ru> writes:
I so tried not to opine on this, but ... sigh, just too tempting. My guess is that newbies who are otherwise getting by on C/C++, understand the gems in D, and can both live with some frustrations/limitations ... and accept that they aren't good enough to be language designers who can know how to add a feature. D maintainers would know it, but it seems to me that the chasm between programming in D and developing D itself isn't as big as in, say Rust or (gasp!) C++. It is probably the "scripting crowd" (not being pejorative, I script OK myself) that sees the ease of programming in D and can think of many feature additions, which may just not jive with D's underpinnings as a systems language (as an aside, the clamour for maps in Erlang comes to mind). I guess discussions around struct constructors, const, etc. are new to them. Those core topics are vigorously argued in the forums by people who have "crossed the chasm", early adopters who are heavily invested in D intellectually, emotionally and even use it professionally. Lurkers and newbies would have to realize that these are "above their paygrade", so to speak. But not drawing any conclusions from those discussions must be difficult. I think such discussions could be in a new "Pro" forum, so that people can see it for what it is (I hope the pros aren't bashful to "tag" their discussions as such!). Or maybe just discuss in some unnumbered DIP PR ...
Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 07.07.19 16:25, a11e99z wrote:<ManTwo/2> Hi - I'm an interested layperson occasionally procrastinating by reading discussions on the D forums. <ManOne/1> fun <ManTwo/2> To me the discussions frequently seem hostileEmotions don't carry well over text messages. Also note that not everyone shares the same sensibilities and it is good to have a certain amount of tolerance for differing views and behaviors. For example, while I don't get offended on the internet (because there is no point), if I did, it would be over things like this: https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues/9422 In that discussion, someone is given a link to a code of conduct that doesn't even obviously apply, for writing a post on their area of expertise in a style that is standard in their community.... <ManTwo/2> Would setting a better 'mood' for the discussion be beneficial to the community?I don't think so, especially if it is attempted in a way that restricts speech more vigorously than it is done now. As far as I know, we have already lost productive contributors over forum moderation. (But I wasn't around for it so there is no way for me to tell if it was justified or not -- another drawback of deleting posts that are not obviously spam.)If yes, how might we go about achieving it?By participating in discussions and setting a good example for others to follow.
Jonathan Marler <johnnymarler gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 July 2019 at 15:39:52 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote:On 07.07.19 16:25, a11e99z wrote:Agreed. Set a good example and others will follow suit. These forums can be hostile sometimes, which breeds more hostility. The best way to change it is to breed encouragement and good will and ignore the hostility.[...]Emotions don't carry well over text messages. Also note that not everyone shares the same sensibilities and it is good to have a certain amount of tolerance for differing views and behaviors. [...]