• darkstalker (15/15) Apr 16 2012 i have this example program:
• Andrej Mitrovic (4/5) Apr 16 2012 Yes and the answer is in the question:
• darkstalker (2/7) Apr 16 2012 thanks, it works
• =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= (4/19) Apr 16 2012 Yes:
• Somedude (10/36) Apr 17 2012 Hi Ali,
• Mike Parker (4/17) Apr 17 2012 In the sidebar at dlang.org, under Documentation, is a link labeled
• Somedude (18/38) Apr 17 2012 Well, yes, that's sufficient for "Hello, world", but not for something
• David (11/17) Apr 17 2012 That's not surprising, try to write a C program with no main:
• SomeDude (4/26) Apr 18 2012 Yeah I understand, but I thought that by writing unit tests, I
• =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= (10/18) Apr 17 2012 Thank you very much for the feedback. I will do something about that.
• Somedude (109/134) Apr 18 2012 Yes, I think that you have a lot of valuable information, but the
• Somedude (2/6) Apr 18 2012 ... largely improved.
• =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= (18/24) Apr 18 2012 Thank you, this is all very valuable information. Yes, I will make the
• Paul D. Anderson (9/190) Apr 18 2012 SomeDude: Your outline and especially your emphasis on what a
• SomeDude (7/15) Apr 19 2012 Thanks. I wouldn't mind having a stab at it, but:
• =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= (12/30) Apr 19 2012 I will improve the beginning of the book with your ideas. (I don't have
• =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= (6/17) Apr 21 2012 That part is done:
• Russel Winder (14/17) Apr 21 2012 Surely "Hello World" shows just a few, and definitely not all, of the

"darkstalker" <slayerbeast gmail.com> writes:

i have this example program:

---
void main()
{
     int[3] a;
     foreach (p; a)
         p = 42;
     writeln(a);
}
---

after running it, i expect to get [42, 42, 42] but instead i get 
[0, 0, 0] (i know that you can do a[] = 42, it's just a trivial 
example). So it seems that you cannot write into the array 
because the elements are being passed by value each iteration. It 
possible to have 'p' passed by reference?

Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:

On 4/17/12, darkstalker <slayerbeast gmail.com> wrote:
  It possible to have 'p' passed by reference?

Yes and the answer is in the question:

foreach (ref p; a)
    p = 42;

"darkstalker" <slayerbeast gmail.com> writes:

On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 at 00:00:57 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 4/17/12, darkstalker <slayerbeast gmail.com> wrote:
  It possible to have 'p' passed by reference?

 Yes and the answer is in the question:

 foreach (ref p; a)
     p = 42;

thanks, it works

=?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:

On 04/16/2012 04:56 PM, darkstalker wrote:
 i have this example program:

 ---
 void main()
 {
 int[3] a;
 foreach (p; a)
 p = 42;
 writeln(a);
 }
 ---

 after running it, i expect to get [42, 42, 42] but instead i get [0, 0,
 0] (i know that you can do a[] = 42, it's just a trivial example). So it
 seems that you cannot write into the array because the elements are
 being passed by value each iteration. It possible to have 'p' passed by
 reference?

Yes:

     foreach (ref p; a)

Ali

Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:

Le 17/04/2012 02:01, Ali Çehreli a écrit :
 On 04/16/2012 04:56 PM, darkstalker wrote:
 i have this example program:

 ---
 void main()
 {
 int[3] a;
 foreach (p; a)
 p = 42;
 writeln(a);
 }
 ---

 after running it, i expect to get [42, 42, 42] but instead i get [0, 0,
 0] (i know that you can do a[] = 42, it's just a trivial example). So it
 seems that you cannot write into the array because the elements are
 being passed by value each iteration. It possible to have 'p' passed by
 reference?

 
 Yes:
 
     foreach (ref p; a)
 
 Ali
 
 

Hi Ali,

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since you're around, I hope you'll
see this message. As a D beginner, I'm browsing through your book.
I wanted to tell you that there is something essential missing in it:
how to compile. It's actually quite hard to find it in the official
website, and since the first chapters are targetted at complete
beginners, I thought it would be nice to add a few lines or pages about
compilation, linking, debugging, etc.
What do you think ?

Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:

On 4/17/2012 4:42 PM, Somedude wrote:

 Ali

 Hi Ali,

 Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since you're around, I hope you'll
 see this message. As a D beginner, I'm browsing through your book.
 I wanted to tell you that there is something essential missing in it:
 how to compile. It's actually quite hard to find it in the official
 website, and since the first chapters are targetted at complete
 beginners, I thought it would be nice to add a few lines or pages about
 compilation, linking, debugging, etc.
 What do you think ?

In the sidebar at dlang.org, under Documentation, is a link labeled 
"Tutorial". The very first code example shows a minimal program and how 
to compile it.

Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:

Le 17/04/2012 12:19, Mike Parker a écrit :
 On 4/17/2012 4:42 PM, Somedude wrote:
 
 Ali

 Hi Ali,

 Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since you're around, I hope you'll
 see this message. As a D beginner, I'm browsing through your book.
 I wanted to tell you that there is something essential missing in it:
 how to compile. It's actually quite hard to find it in the official
 website, and since the first chapters are targetted at complete
 beginners, I thought it would be nice to add a few lines or pages about
 compilation, linking, debugging, etc.
 What do you think ?

 
 In the sidebar at dlang.org, under Documentation, is a link labeled
 "Tutorial". The very first code example shows a minimal program and how
 to compile it.

Well, yes, that's sufficient for "Hello, world", but not for something
barely more complex, i.e a function with a unit test.

In this case, I had to type:
rdmd -unittest --main test.d

Without the --main, I would get linker errors, and couldn't find the
reason for these errors. Happily, someone here explained me that the
effect of the --main flag was to insert a main() function just for this
case.

Now, I see there is a mention of this in http://dlang.org/rdmd.html
But without rdmd, I would compile with dmd, which has no --main switch,
and it would still fail to link, because of lack of main(). The code I
posted wasn't my code, and I knew it had worked, so I assumed it was
correct, I didn't figure out that adding a main() was necessary given
there was a unit test.

And anyway, explaining in the book how to link is a necessary step imho.
This is why I made this page more visible in the Wiki:
http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?D__Tutorial/CompilingLinkingD

David <d dav1d.de> writes:

 In this case, I had to type:
 rdmd -unittest --main test.d

 Without the --main, I would get linker errors, and couldn't find the
 reason for these errors. Happily, someone here explained me that the
 effect of the --main flag was to insert a main() function just for this
 case.

That's not surprising, try to write a C program with no main:

─[ArchBox][/tmp]╼ touch foo.c
─[ArchBox][/tmp]╼ LANG=C gcc foo.c
/usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.7.0/../../../crt1.o: In function `_start':
(.text+0x18): undefined reference to `main'
collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status

You get the linker errors, because there is no entry-point for your 
program, but that has nothing to do with D, it's a common behaviour for 
C, C++, D and other languages.


And the unittest(-switch) is also good relativly good explained at 
http://dlang.org/unittest.html (dlang -> search -> unittest)

"SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:

On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 at 12:11:21 UTC, David wrote:
 In this case, I had to type:
 rdmd -unittest --main test.d

 Without the --main, I would get linker errors, and couldn't 
 find the
 reason for these errors. Happily, someone here explained me 
 that the
 effect of the --main flag was to insert a main() function just 
 for this
 case.

 That's not surprising, try to write a C program with no main:

 ─[ArchBox][/tmp]╼ touch foo.c
 ─[ArchBox][/tmp]╼ LANG=C gcc foo.c
 /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.7.0/../../../crt1.o: In 
 function `_start':
 (.text+0x18): undefined reference to `main'
 collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status

 You get the linker errors, because there is no entry-point for 
 your program, but that has nothing to do with D, it's a common 
 behaviour for C, C++, D and other languages.


 And the unittest(-switch) is also good relativly good explained 
 at http://dlang.org/unittest.html (dlang -> search -> unittest)

Yeah I understand, but I thought that by writing unit tests, I 
would implicitly add an entry point, but now I see how dumb an 
idea that is.

=?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:

On 04/17/2012 12:42 AM, Somedude wrote:

 Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since you're around, I hope you'll
 see this message. As a D beginner, I'm browsing through your book.
 I wanted to tell you that there is something essential missing in it:
 how to compile. It's actually quite hard to find it in the official
 website, and since the first chapters are targetted at complete
 beginners, I thought it would be nice to add a few lines or pages about
 compilation, linking, debugging, etc.
 What do you think ?

Thank you very much for the feedback. I will do something about that.

Although there is no hello world compilation, the dmd command line 
appears multiple times throughout the chapters.

The 'assert and enforce' chapter shows it for the -release compiler 
switch and coincidentally I am on the 'Unit Testing' chapter as we 
speak, which includes the -unittest switch. :)

But you are right, both dmd and rdmd command lines must appear earlier.

Thank you,
Ali

Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:

Le 17/04/2012 16:07, Ali Çehreli a écrit :
 On 04/17/2012 12:42 AM, Somedude wrote:
 
 Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since you're around, I hope you'll
 see this message. As a D beginner, I'm browsing through your book.
 I wanted to tell you that there is something essential missing in it:
 how to compile. It's actually quite hard to find it in the official
 website, and since the first chapters are targetted at complete
 beginners, I thought it would be nice to add a few lines or pages about
 compilation, linking, debugging, etc.
 What do you think ?

 
 Thank you very much for the feedback. I will do something about that.
 
 Although there is no hello world compilation, the dmd command line
 appears multiple times throughout the chapters.
 
 The 'assert and enforce' chapter shows it for the -release compiler
 switch and coincidentally I am on the 'Unit Testing' chapter as we
 speak, which includes the -unittest switch. :)
 
 But you are right, both dmd and rdmd command lines must appear earlier.
 
 Thank you,
 Ali
 

Yes, I think that you have a lot of valuable information, but the
organization is lacking. The advanced chapters look good, but the first
"beginner" chapters can be .

what struck me as an error in your "Hello world program" chapter, you
give as an exercise:

"Type or copy the hello world program into your editor as a source file,
compile it, and run the program. The program should produce the
following output: Hello world!

If you are new to using a compiler, you will need to get help from the
compiler documentation or, preferably, an experienced person. You can't
benefit from the rest of this book if you can't compile and run programs."

Spock would have said: "Illogical, captain!" At this point, you haven't
told how to compile and run the program. Seriously, if your book is
aimed at complete beginners (and the first chapters seem to say that),
you really want to tell them what to do, not "go find the compiler
documentation", else if they can do that, they simply don't need to read
your book.

For a complete beginner, it's very frustrating to have to read 4
chapters of fluff, then write the program, and still not knowing how to
run the program. Where is the fun ? I can guarantee that at this point,
9 out of 10 beginners will drop the reading.


FIRST show, THEN explain. Better yet: first show, then ask questions,
and finally explain.

So how would I have organized this chapter ?
Something like this:

---------------
The first program to show in most programming...
Here is a hello world in D:
...

Copy this program and save it in a file under the name hello.d
.d is the extension for D source code.

Now we'll compile it, that is to say the compiler will check that the
syntax of this source code, and if it is valid D, will translate it into
machine language and make it a program.
Type in the command prompt:
rdmd hello.d

If you didn't make any mistake, you should have the impression that
nothing happened. In the contrary, everything went well ! You can check
that the executable file hello (or hello.exe under window) has been
created. If instead the compiler barked at you lots of text, you
probably made a mistake while copying. Correct it and retry. You will
routinely make many mistakes when programming so that this process of
correcting and compiling will get very familiar.

Once this is done, type the name of the executable to run it.
You should see
Hello, world !

Congratulations, your first D program is running !

------------

Then ONLY after that, I would proceed to the explanations.
(As an exercise, I would ask also: what is the smallest valid D program ?)

I would put the "Hello, world" chapter at the very beginning, right
after "The practice of programming".
This chapter would be enriched by an example on the computer, showing
the values.

The order of the beginning chapters I think should be:
Intro
Practice of programming
Hello world
writeln and write
Compiler
Fundamental types
I would then merge "Assignment and order of evaluation" with "Variables"

I would also remove the "Standard Input and Output Streams", they don't
belong to an introduction.
In fact, the problem is, you really want to separate your chapters into
a sections, one as an introductory course, and one for more advanced
explanations of the core language, and maybe one to introduce specific
concepts of the standard library (your last chapters).

I would put in Introduction section the first 19 chapters until
"Redirecting input and output", as well as all the flow constructs
(do-while, for, foreach, switch case, you really want to merge those
with other chapters like while, these don't need separate chapters),
ternary ops and associative arrays. With that, beginning programmers can
have some fun.

In the second section (core language), I would put
File
Program environment
auto typeof
name space
litterals
enum
function
function params
Lazy ops
Immutability
Classes <-- I didn't see a chapter on this topic ?
Intefaces
Exceptions
Scope
Assert and Enforce

In the third section (Generic Programming and advanced concepts), I
would put:
Templates
Mixins
Ranges
Parallelism
Concurrency
synchronized
__traits
calloc etc, or 2 chapters for interoperations with C/asm

Etc

Finally, as appendices, I would put chapters about the tools:
The Compiler <-- some more details about it
The Linker <-- name mangling, etc
Creating interface files, etc

I think this organization would make much more sense, and would make a
wonderful book.

I hope this helps.

Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:

Le 18/04/2012 10:26, Somedude a écrit :
 Yes, I think that you have a lot of valuable information, but the
 organization is lacking. The advanced chapters look good, but the first
 "beginner" chapters can be .
 

... largely improved.

=?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:

On 04/18/2012 03:06 AM, Somedude wrote:
 Le 18/04/2012 10:26, Somedude a écrit :
 Yes, I think that you have a lot of valuable information, but the
 organization is lacking. The advanced chapters look good, but the first
 "beginner" chapters can be .

 ... largely improved.

Thank you, this is all very valuable information. Yes, I will make the 
improvements and I am very grateful.

Although, I must say that there has been some reason in all of the 
decisions, which has been admittedly bad. At least it all started as a 
tutorial attached to a Turkish forum with a small but lively forum. It 
was fine back then to not explain everything in the "book" partly 
because of the experience that was already on that forum. Especially the 
number of platforms and IDEs that the user may be using has been a 
deterrent.

About the order of the chapters: Knowing that it may be boring to keep 
some topics like classes for so much later, I tried to reduce the amount 
of "accept this as a recipe for now, it will be explained later" type of 
information. I know my decision is not right and "people don't learn 
like that" but that has been an early decision. :) Also, I was under the 
impressions that there was no known good way of teaching programming.

Again, thank you very much the suggestions I will incorporate them. :)

Ali

"Paul D. Anderson" <paul.d.removethis.anderson comcast.andthis.net> writes:

SomeDude: Your outline and especially your emphasis on what a 
rank beginner needs to know is very good.

Would you consider writing it up yourself? Not the whole thing, 
maybe but the beginner info and the compiler/linker appendices. 
You have a commendable prose style.

There are tutorials available already, but too many is way better 
than too few.

Paul


On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 at 08:26:14 UTC, Somedude wrote:
 Le 17/04/2012 16:07, Ali Çehreli a écrit :
 On 04/17/2012 12:42 AM, Somedude wrote:
 
 Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since you're around, I 
 hope you'll
 see this message. As a D beginner, I'm browsing through your 
 book.
 I wanted to tell you that there is something essential 
 missing in it:
 how to compile. It's actually quite hard to find it in the 
 official
 website, and since the first chapters are targetted at 
 complete
 beginners, I thought it would be nice to add a few lines or 
 pages about
 compilation, linking, debugging, etc.
 What do you think ?

 
 Thank you very much for the feedback. I will do something 
 about that.
 
 Although there is no hello world compilation, the dmd command 
 line
 appears multiple times throughout the chapters.
 
 The 'assert and enforce' chapter shows it for the -release 
 compiler
 switch and coincidentally I am on the 'Unit Testing' chapter 
 as we
 speak, which includes the -unittest switch. :)
 
 But you are right, both dmd and rdmd command lines must appear 
 earlier.
 
 Thank you,
 Ali
 

 Yes, I think that you have a lot of valuable information, but 
 the
 organization is lacking. The advanced chapters look good, but 
 the first
 "beginner" chapters can be .

 what struck me as an error in your "Hello world program" 
 chapter, you
 give as an exercise:

 "Type or copy the hello world program into your editor as a 
 source file,
 compile it, and run the program. The program should produce the
 following output: Hello world!

 If you are new to using a compiler, you will need to get help 
 from the
 compiler documentation or, preferably, an experienced person. 
 You can't
 benefit from the rest of this book if you can't compile and run 
 programs."

 Spock would have said: "Illogical, captain!" At this point, you 
 haven't
 told how to compile and run the program. Seriously, if your 
 book is
 aimed at complete beginners (and the first chapters seem to say 
 that),
 you really want to tell them what to do, not "go find the 
 compiler
 documentation", else if they can do that, they simply don't 
 need to read
 your book.

 For a complete beginner, it's very frustrating to have to read 4
 chapters of fluff, then write the program, and still not 
 knowing how to
 run the program. Where is the fun ? I can guarantee that at 
 this point,
 9 out of 10 beginners will drop the reading.


 FIRST show, THEN explain. Better yet: first show, then ask 
 questions,
 and finally explain.

 So how would I have organized this chapter ?
 Something like this:

 ---------------
 The first program to show in most programming...
 Here is a hello world in D:
 ...

 Copy this program and save it in a file under the name hello.d
 .d is the extension for D source code.

 Now we'll compile it, that is to say the compiler will check 
 that the
 syntax of this source code, and if it is valid D, will 
 translate it into
 machine language and make it a program.
 Type in the command prompt:
 rdmd hello.d

 If you didn't make any mistake, you should have the impression 
 that
 nothing happened. In the contrary, everything went well ! You 
 can check
 that the executable file hello (or hello.exe under window) has 
 been
 created. If instead the compiler barked at you lots of text, you
 probably made a mistake while copying. Correct it and retry. 
 You will
 routinely make many mistakes when programming so that this 
 process of
 correcting and compiling will get very familiar.

 Once this is done, type the name of the executable to run it.
 You should see
 Hello, world !

 Congratulations, your first D program is running !

 ------------

 Then ONLY after that, I would proceed to the explanations.
 (As an exercise, I would ask also: what is the smallest valid D 
 program ?)

 I would put the "Hello, world" chapter at the very beginning, 
 right
 after "The practice of programming".
 This chapter would be enriched by an example on the computer, 
 showing
 the values.

 The order of the beginning chapters I think should be:
 Intro
 Practice of programming
 Hello world
 writeln and write
 Compiler
 Fundamental types
 I would then merge "Assignment and order of evaluation" with 
 "Variables"

 I would also remove the "Standard Input and Output Streams", 
 they don't
 belong to an introduction.
 In fact, the problem is, you really want to separate your 
 chapters into
 a sections, one as an introductory course, and one for more 
 advanced
 explanations of the core language, and maybe one to introduce 
 specific
 concepts of the standard library (your last chapters).

 I would put in Introduction section the first 19 chapters until
 "Redirecting input and output", as well as all the flow 
 constructs
 (do-while, for, foreach, switch case, you really want to merge 
 those
 with other chapters like while, these don't need separate 
 chapters),
 ternary ops and associative arrays. With that, beginning 
 programmers can
 have some fun.

 In the second section (core language), I would put
 File
 Program environment
 auto typeof
 name space
 litterals
 enum
 function
 function params
 Lazy ops
 Immutability
 Classes <-- I didn't see a chapter on this topic ?
 Intefaces
 Exceptions
 Scope
 Assert and Enforce

 In the third section (Generic Programming and advanced 
 concepts), I
 would put:
 Templates
 Mixins
 Ranges
 Parallelism
 Concurrency
 synchronized
 __traits
 calloc etc, or 2 chapters for interoperations with C/asm

 Etc

 Finally, as appendices, I would put chapters about the tools:
 The Compiler <-- some more details about it
 The Linker <-- name mangling, etc
 Creating interface files, etc

 I think this organization would make much more sense, and would 
 make a
 wonderful book.

 I hope this helps.

"SomeDude" <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:

On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 at 19:43:50 UTC, Paul D. Anderson 
wrote:
 SomeDude: Your outline and especially your emphasis on what a 
 rank beginner needs to know is very good.

 Would you consider writing it up yourself? Not the whole thing, 
 maybe but the beginner info and the compiler/linker appendices. 
 You have a commendable prose style.

 There are tutorials available already, but too many is way 
 better than too few.

 Paul

Thanks. I wouldn't mind having a stab at it, but:
1. it is Ali's book, not mine, so we would need Ali's agreement. 
If he offers me to contribute, why not,
2. I'm myself a D beginner, so you would probably need to proof 
read and correct me afterwards.

=?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:

On 04/19/2012 10:02 AM, SomeDude wrote:
 On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 at 19:43:50 UTC, Paul D. Anderson wrote:
 SomeDude: Your outline and especially your emphasis on what a rank
 beginner needs to know is very good.

 Would you consider writing it up yourself? Not the whole thing, maybe
 but the beginner info and the compiler/linker appendices. You have a
 commendable prose style.

 There are tutorials available already, but too many is way better than
 too few.

 Paul

 Thanks. I wouldn't mind having a stab at it, but:
 1. it is Ali's book, not mine, so we would need Ali's agreement. If he
 offers me to contribute, why not,

I will improve the beginning of the book with your ideas. (I don't have 
free time yet; maybe by the end of next week.) I would also like to 
thank you if you would please e-mail me your full name at 
acehreli yahoo.com.

I think it would be even better if you add a newbie section (or improve 
the existing ones as you graciously have been doing) on the wiki site, 
or some other site. I would be happy to link to that section from the 
book. (I have a feeling Paul D. Anderson meant that you wrote a separate 
document anyway.)

 2. I'm myself a D beginner, so you would probably need to proof read and
 correct me afterwards.

Gladly, as much as I know myself. :)

Ali

=?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:

On 04/18/2012 01:26 AM, Somedude wrote:

 For a complete beginner, it's very frustrating to have to read 4
 chapters of fluff, then write the program, and still not knowing how to
 run the program. Where is the fun ? I can guarantee that at this point,
 9 out of 10 beginners will drop the reading.

[...]

 The order of the beginning chapters I think should be:
 Intro
 Practice of programming
 Hello world
 writeln and write
 Compiler
 Fundamental types

That part is done:

   http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/hello_world.html

Thank you,
Ali

Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> writes:

On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 22:14 -0700, Ali =C3=87ehreli wrote:
[...]
 That part is done:
=20
    http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/hello_world.html

Surely "Hello World" shows just a few, and definitely not all, of the
essential concepts of a programming language.

--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder