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digitalmars.D.learn - Russian translation of the "range" term?

reply "Ivan Kazmenko" <gassa mail.ru> writes:
Hi!

I'm unsure what is the Russian equivalent for the term "range", 
as in "D range", the generalization of a pair of iterators.  With 
"range" being such an overloaded term in source language and 
having no exact equivalent in the target language, its Russian 
translations I have come up with don't sound quite right.

Is there an "official" translation already?  In TDPL, the (very 
few) occurrences of "range" are translated as "диапазон" 
(Cyrillic for "diapason"), how official is that?  In Russian, the 
term "diapason" in computerspeak is used to refer to a range of 
possible values, as in "the range (diapason) for an ubyte 
variable is from 0 to 255".  Also, it has four syllables, making 
it long-ish to pronounce.

The original article "On Iteration"[0] suggests that the name 
"iterator" would also fit if it was not so heavily used, but in 
Russian, we also have that loan word with the same meaning and 
usage already.

I guess synonyms or translations into other languages with some 
interlingual explanations could also help.

Ivan Kazmenko.

[0] http://www.informit.com/articles/printerfriendly/1407357
Nov 11 2014
next sibling parent ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 11:50:16 +0000
Ivan Kazmenko via Digitalmars-d-learn
<digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> wrote:


 Is there an "official" translation already?  In TDPL, the (very=20
 few) occurrences of "range" are translated as "=D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=B0=D0=BF=


=D0=B0=D0=B7=D0=BE=D0=BD"
methinks that "=D0=BF=D0=BE=D1=81=D0=BB=D0=B5=D0=B4=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=
=D0=B5=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C"[0] is better, albeit long=
er. but
nobody will use that except 3.5 freaks, it's way too long. but
"=D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B0=D0=B7=D0=BE=D0=BD" is completely wrong anyw=
ay.


[0] "sequence", but without connotation of any ordering.
Nov 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Kagamin" <spam here.lot> writes:
Another synonym is "list".
Nov 11 2014
parent reply ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:08:36 +0000
Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com>
wrote:


 Another synonym is "list".


hm... i afraid that it's not suitable. "list" has a well-defined meaning
in programming literature. ranges are definitely not lists (but list can
be a range).

ah! "=D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1=D0=BE=D1=80"! it's short, it not collides with well=
-defined terms, it
describes what range is. it even consists of five letters! ;-)
Nov 11 2014
parent reply "Kagamin" <spam here.lot> writes:
I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what 
programming on ranges is. Isn't it?
Nov 11 2014
next sibling parent reply ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 +0000
Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com>
wrote:


 I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what=20
 programming on ranges is. Isn't it?


"list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming "range" as
"list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "=D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1=D0=
=BE=D1=80" is short
and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as
"=D0=BC=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B2=D0=BE".

but it's for OP to decide, of course.
Nov 11 2014
parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 15:03:40 UTC, ketmar via 
Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 +0000
 Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn 
 <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com>
 wrote:


 I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what 
 programming on ranges is. Isn't it?


 "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming 
 "range" as
 "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" is 
 short
 and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as
 "множество".

 but it's for OP to decide, of course.


What does "набор" mean literally? What is it?
Nov 11 2014
next sibling parent reply "Ivan Kazmenko" <gassa mail.ru> writes:
 I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what 
 programming on ranges is. Isn't it?


 "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming 
 "range" as
 "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" is 
 short
 and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as
 "множество".

 but it's for OP to decide, of course.


 What does "набор" mean literally? What is it?


As I see it, "набор" can informally be translated as 
"collection", most frequently unordered and allowing duplicates. 
I often see and use it as a human-readable translation of the 
term "multiset" in texts which are not too formal (the exact 
translation "мультимножество" is way too long and scientific).

The suggested translations "диапазон" (diapason), "список" 
(list), "последовательность" (sequence), "набор"
(collection) all 
have something in common with the range concept, but all of them 
seem to have a defined meaning in either maths or computer 
science.  Maybe it's inevitable, just like "range" is itself an 
overloaded term in English.

Ivan Kazmenko.
Nov 11 2014
parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:00:56 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko wrote:

 The suggested translations "диапазон" (diapason), "список" 
 (list), "последовательность" (sequence), "набор"
(collection) 
 all have something in common with the range concept, but all of 
 them seem to have a defined meaning in either maths or computer 
 science.  Maybe it's inevitable, just like "range" is itself an 
 overloaded term in English.


Yes, this is pretty much the case. One can't find translation for 
a range that won't have any additional connotations because 
"range" is itself heavily overloaded word in English.

In my opinion:

"диапазон" is ok to describe a finite forward range
"последовательность" is solid generic term if you are not
afraid 
of making mathematicians mad

I don't like "список" or "набор" because they don't necessarily 
imply iteration which is the most crucial aspect of range concept.

In practice I think it is OK to use any of those terms if you use 
it consistently within a book / article and explain its meaning 
somewhere in the very beginning.
Nov 11 2014
parent ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:10:12 +0000
Dicebot via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com>
wrote:


 "=D0=BF=D0=BE=D1=81=D0=BB=D0=B5=D0=B4=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D0=B5=D0=BB=


=D1=8C=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C" is solid generic term if you are not =
afraid=20

 of making mathematicians mad


and it is totally unusable in practice. it's just too long and hard to
pronounce to be used anywhere except a dry boring book. ;-)

i'm not forcing any of terms, but i believe that the term must be short
or people will not adopt it.
Nov 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:38:26 +0000
Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> wrote:


 What does "=D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1=D0=BE=D1=80" mean literally? What is it?


something like "(unordered) set of something similar but not same,
which can (eventually) be counted and things can be extracted/added".
like this.

"=D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1=D0=BE=D1=80 =D1=80=D1=83=D1=87=D0=B5=D0=BA =D0=B4=D0=BB=
=D1=8F =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=8F", for example, as "set of=
 pens from which one
pen can be taken and used (or another pen added to be used later)".
pretty similar to what "range" in D is, methinks.
Nov 11 2014
parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:09:06 UTC, ketmar via 
Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:

 "набор ручек для писания", for example, as "set of pens
from 
 which one
 pen can be taken and used (or another pen added to be used 
 later)".
 pretty similar to what "range" in D is, methinks.


Only if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice is believed 
to be correct :)
Nov 11 2014
parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d-learn" <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 04:14:12PM +0000, Dicebot via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:09:06 UTC, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn
 wrote:

"набор ручек для писания", for example, as "set of pens
from which
one pen can be taken and used (or another pen added to be used
later)".  pretty similar to what "range" in D is, methinks.


 
 Only if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice is believed to be
 correct :)


That's not a problem:

	auto choose(SoS /* pun intended */)(SoS sets)
		if (isSetOfSets!SoS)
	in { assert(axiomOfChoice); } // <--- this makes it all work
	body
	{
		return sets.choiceFunction();
	}

;-)


T

-- 
Prosperity breeds contempt, and poverty breeds consent. -- Suck.com
Nov 11 2014
prev sibling parent reply ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:38:26 +0000
Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 15:03:40 UTC, ketmar via=20
 Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 +0000
 Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn=20
 <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com>
 wrote:


 I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what=20
 programming on ranges is. Isn't it?


 "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming=20
 "range" as
 "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "=D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1=




=D0=BE=D1=80" is=20

 short
 and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as
 "=D0=BC=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B2=D0=BE".

 but it's for OP to decide, of course.


=20
 What does "=D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1=D0=BE=D1=80" mean literally? What is it?


ah, yes, "collection" is a good translation. yet the word "=D0=BA=D0=BE=D0=
=BB=D0=BB=D0=B5=D0=BA=D1=86=D0=B8=D1=8F"
is used literally in some of the programming books.
Nov 11 2014
next sibling parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:10:33 UTC, ketmar via 
Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:38:26 +0000
 Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn 
 <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 15:03:40 UTC, ketmar via 
 Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:52:55 +0000
 Kagamin via Digitalmars-d-learn 
 <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com>
 wrote:


 I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what 
 programming on ranges is. Isn't it?


 "list" is a good term, but it's already taken. so naming 
 "range" as
 "list" will create unnecessary confusion. alas. yet "набор" 
 is short
 and easy, and it's not widely used, as "set" is translated as
 "множество".

 but it's for OP to decide, of course.


 
 What does "набор" mean literally? What is it?


 ah, yes, "collection" is a good translation. yet the word 
 "коллекция"
 is used literally in some of the programming books.


Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are homogeneous 
(i.e. every member/item is of the same type)?
Nov 11 2014
parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:14:10 UTC, Chris wrote:

 Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are homogeneous 
 (i.e. every member/item is of the same type)?


Yes (if you mean static type)

ElementType!Range is used extensively in Phobos
Nov 11 2014
parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:15:36 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:14:10 UTC, Chris wrote:

 Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are 
 homogeneous (i.e. every member/item is of the same type)?


 Yes (if you mean static type)

 ElementType!Range is used extensively in Phobos


Sorry, I meant does the term "набор" (=collection) entail the 
concept that all items are of the same type? A collection could 
also be a loose collection of elements of different types (int, 
string, float, MyClass), whereas in D a range's elements can 
(usually) only be of one type.
Nov 11 2014
parent ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:50:23 +0000
Chris via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:15:36 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 16:14:10 UTC, Chris wrote:

 Does that entail the concept that ranges (in D) are=20
 homogeneous (i.e. every member/item is of the same type)?


 Yes (if you mean static type)

 ElementType!Range is used extensively in Phobos


=20
 Sorry, I meant does the term "=D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1=D0=BE=D1=80" (=3Dcollect=


ion) entail the=20

 concept that all items are of the same type? A collection could=20
 also be a loose collection of elements of different types (int,=20
 string, float, MyClass), whereas in D a range's elements can=20
 (usually) only be of one type.


on of the meaning is a collection of similar items, yes. or at least
items with the similar purpose/property.
Nov 11 2014
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/11/2014 08:10 AM, ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote:


 What does "набор" mean literally? What is it?


 ah, yes, "collection" is a good translation. yet the word "коллекция"
 is used literally in some of the programming books.


The separate concepts "collection" and "range" better have separate words.

Ali
Nov 11 2014
parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 18:39:09 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 The separate concepts "collection" and "range" better have 
 separate words.

 Ali


This is especially important because "collection" tends to have 
certain connotation with "container" and confusion between ranges 
and containers is a common mistake among D newbies.
Nov 11 2014
prev sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 14:52:56 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 I was thinking about list comprehension, which is what 
 programming on ranges is. Isn't it?


No, not really. It only applies to specific subset of ranges and 
specific interpretation of "list" term. There is no 
straightforward equivalence here.
Nov 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "thedeemon" <dlang thedeemon.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko wrote:

 Hi!

 I'm unsure what is the Russian equivalent for the term "range", 
 as in "D range", the generalization of a pair of iterators.


I think "последовательность" (sequence) is the most
appropriate, 
because the defining characteristic of an input range (most 
common one) is ability to provide data sequentially. Also, afaik, 

to 'seq') for the same thing that D calls ranges.
Nov 12 2014
next sibling parent ketmar via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:38:50 +0000
thedeemon via Digitalmars-d-learn <digitalmars-d-learn puremagic.com>
wrote:



 to 'seq')


"=D0=BF=D0=BE=D1=81=D0=BB=D0=B5=D0=B4". rotfl.
Nov 12 2014
prev sibling parent "Chris Williams" <yoreanon-chrisw yahoo.co.jp> writes:
On Wednesday, 12 November 2014 at 11:38:52 UTC, thedeemon wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko 
 wrote:

 Hi!

 I'm unsure what is the Russian equivalent for the term 
 "range", as in "D range", the generalization of a pair of 
 iterators.


 I think "последовательность" (sequence) is the most 
 appropriate, because the defining characteristic of an input 
 range (most common one) is ability to provide data 

 use this term (often shortened to 'seq') for the same thing 
 that D calls ranges.


While sequence makes more sense for how std.range thinks of 
ranges, I think the history of the term is closer to how we use 
slices. So another (English) alternative to try might be a 
"view". It's a fairly common term in SQL databases, so presumably 
there's a translation for it in Russian.
Nov 12 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jack Applegame" <japplegame gmail.com> writes:
"интервал", "область"
Nov 12 2014
parent "Ivan Kazmenko" <gassa mail.ru> writes:
On Wednesday, 12 November 2014 at 20:48:00 UTC, Jack Applegame 
wrote:

 "интервал", "область"


Thanks to all for the suggestions and reasoning!

I don't yet see a word which "clicks" in this case, but we got 
multiple reasonable suggestions here.  Perhaps I'll be fine with 
one of them.

Ivan Kazmenko.
Nov 17 2014
prev sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ivan Kazmenko wrote:

 Is there an "official" translation already?  In TDPL, the (very 
 few) occurrences of "range" are translated as "диапазон" 
 (Cyrillic for "diapason"), how official is that?  In Russian, 
 the term "diapason" in computerspeak is used to refer to a 
 range of possible values, as in "the range (diapason) for an 
 ubyte variable is from 0 to 255".  Also, it has four syllables, 
 making it long-ish to pronounce.


"Range" sounds as odd to people new to D as "диапазон", and has 
the same issue with the existing interpretation of an interval of 
values. Thus, "диапазон" is an accurate translation. Anyway, 
using established terminology outweighs accuracy of translation, 
as the former is less likely to confuse readers familiar with the 
subject.
Nov 17 2014