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digitalmars.D.learn - Books...

reply soup2nuts <freehours_251 lycos.com> writes:
So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still
considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to pick up,
something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?
May 09 2008
next sibling parent reply Neal Alexander <WQEQWEUQY HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
soup2nuts wrote:

 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still
considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to pick up,
something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590599608?ie=UTF8&tag=thelazpro-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1590599608

Or you can just check the online documentation for D and tango. It 
should take about 30min max to start programming in D if you know 
C/c++/whatever.
May 09 2008
parent Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
Neal Alexander wrote:

 soup2nuts wrote:

 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still 
 considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to 
 pick up, something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?


 
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590599608?ie=UTF8&tag=thelazpro-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&cre
tiveASIN=1590599608 


There's also an eBook version available from APress if you prefer that 
format.  It's a bit cheaper too:

http://apress.com/book/view/1590599608


Sean
May 10 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 21:57:22 -0400, bob wrote:


 soup2nuts Wrote:
 

 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still
 considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to
 pick up, something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?


 < torrent link removed >



Except that the tango book is not free; and thus, it seems quite baffling 
that you would post this torrent.

It's a shame that people do this without permission. I'm especially 
surprised people do this in the very forum in which the authors 
participate. Kind of a slap in their face, really.

-JJR
May 09 2008
next sibling parent reply bob <bobbyx msn.com.au> writes:
John Reimer Wrote:


 On Fri, 09 May 2008 21:57:22 -0400, bob wrote:
 

 soup2nuts Wrote:
 

 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still
 considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to
 pick up, something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?


 < torrent link removed >


 
 
 Except that the tango book is not free; and thus, it seems quite baffling 
 that you would post this torrent.
 
 It's a shame that people do this without permission. I'm especially 
 surprised people do this in the very forum in which the authors 
 participate. Kind of a slap in their face, really.
 
 -JJR
 


Free is a state of mind with some people not a real principal
You take free code and  advice but when it does not suit  then you say ""it
should not be free""?

Point is ,it is available free and it would be LYING to say it isn't ,or, to
avoid saying it is. Either is a lie
May 09 2008
parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, 10 May 2008 01:35:02 -0400, bob wrote:


 John Reimer Wrote:
 

 On Fri, 09 May 2008 21:57:22 -0400, bob wrote:
 

 soup2nuts Wrote:
 

 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language
 still considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent
 book to pick up, something the covers all the concepts fairly in
 depth?


 < torrent link removed >


 
 
 Except that the tango book is not free; and thus, it seems quite
 baffling that you would post this torrent.
 
 It's a shame that people do this without permission. I'm especially
 surprised people do this in the very forum in which the authors
 participate. Kind of a slap in their face, really.
 
 -JJR
 


 Free is a state of mind with some people not a real principal You take
 free code and  advice but when it does not suit  then you say ""it
 should not be free""?
 
 Point is ,it is available free and it would be LYING to say it isn't
 ,or, to avoid saying it is. Either is a lie



Have you considered that it might be lying to pretend that avoiding a lie 
is your motivation for posting the link? People may find it for 
themselves without your help, so you are doing no good service.  By NOT 
posting this, you neatly avoid the risk of hurting or disrepecting the 
authors who invested their personal time and money into this work.

Please leave the choice of being benevolent in the hands of the authors.  
It is attitudes like yours that may actually destroy motivation for 
contributing to Tango and other works. Or do you not know that the 
profits of this book help support the hundreds of hours that go into 
Tango developement and maintenance?

-JJR
May 10 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Manfred Nowak wrote:


 John Reimer wrote:
 

 I'm especially surprised people do this in the very forum in which
 the authors participate.  Kind of a slap in their face, really.


 
 Some years ago my statement of intent to bind executables to specific
 hardware was arraigned here.
 
 I wonder how you would call that arraigning, when considering your
 statement above. For this please observe, that printing a book is also
 binding some intellectual property to some specific hardware.
 
 Please observe further, that the owners of the website holding the
 torrent promise to remove torrents for copyrighted files from their
 website on request of the copyright holder. I believe that no one is
 allowed to criticize a decision of copyright holders to take no action
 on beeing informed of a possible copyright breach. Especially is an
 information on a possible copyright breach no slap in the face of
 holder of the copyright.


If someone provided us with such information in private communication (which
is easy to accomplish), then this would be true. Bob did however provide
the information in a public forum, and did in a followup show that he
thinks such breaches of copyright are ok.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
May 10 2008
next sibling parent reply Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
None here seem to see the real issue, IMO.
The torrent by itself should not be illegal. The true issue is the
copyright of the authors (please DON'T use the term intellectual
property since it's a term invited by the RIAA to spread FUD and has NO
real legal meaning).
What I want to ask is: Had I downloaded the book via the above torrent
and than sent a paycheck to the authors, would I still be violating the
copyright?
The issue is not people using torrents to download ebooks (which they
could do simply because they prefer this method of downloading). The
issue is people that do not respect the authors' copyright and violate
the law.
In the same way you can go to a library and use a copy-machine, thus
violating the copy-right of authors, that doesn't mean we should
disallow libraries.

I do see the problem in the above idealized argument, but the problem is
that the current situation was created by the very organizations who
represent content creators like the RIAA and MPAA. They have cultivated
this culture of disrespect towards the content creators via their
disrespect towards the users of the content and via their DRM schemes.
trust and respect goes both ways. This is why in free-software
communities copy-rights are always respected (via mutual respect and
trust instead of fear and DRM).

--Yigal
May 10 2008
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Yigal Chripun wrote:

 I do see the problem in the above idealized argument, but the problem is
 that the current situation was created by the very organizations who
 represent content creators like the RIAA and MPAA. They have cultivated
 this culture of disrespect towards the content creators via their
 disrespect towards the users of the content and via their DRM schemes.
 trust and respect goes both ways. This is why in free-software
 communities copy-rights are always respected (via mutual respect and
 trust instead of fear and DRM).


I'm rather proud that my compilers are not, have never, and never will 
be copy protected, DRM'd, require activation, phone home, nag for 
registration, etc.

I've been amply rewarded by discovering that my customers are nearly 
without exception decent, honorable, and nice people. I don't know if 
that is cause or effect, but it's fine with me either way.

They're still copyrighted, though <g>.
May 10 2008
next sibling parent reply darrylb <no way.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 I've been amply rewarded by discovering that my customers are nearly 
 without exception decent, honorable, and nice people. I don't know if 
 that is cause or effect, but it's fine with me either way.


Hmm, having troubles catching this. Shoot, where's the glossary. Ah there it
is, and here are the relevant sections:

'my customers' = Those that have paid me.
'decent, honorable, and nice people' = Paid me. 

So what you're saying is, 'Those that have paid me, have paid me'? Sure, makes
logical sense I guess, but isn't really much of a statement.

What would really be more interesting, at least as far as I see it, is some
mention of how you would know if you had been stolen from. Otherwise, saying
anything like that is as hollow as saying, oh, 'Each copy that was purchased
was not stolen'. Well, duh. But without something like that, all you are really
saying here is, is that you have no idea how much of your stuff is stolen from
you. Fair enough if that works for you, but I wouldn't try to claim that every
user of your stuff is honest, just based on the fact that all of your paying
users paid you. :P


 They're still copyrighted, though <g>.


So, you aren't concerned about people stealing from you on one level, but you
are on another? :)
May 10 2008
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
darrylb wrote:

 What would really be more interesting, at least as far as I see it,
 is some mention of how you would know if you had been stolen from.
 Otherwise, saying anything like that is as hollow as saying, oh,
 'Each copy that was purchased was not stolen'. Well, duh. But without
 something like that, all you are really saying here is, is that you
 have no idea how much of your stuff is stolen from you. Fair enough
 if that works for you, but I wouldn't try to claim that every user of
 your stuff is honest, just based on the fact that all of your paying
 users paid you. :P


I've never encountered indications of widespread illegal copying of it.



 They're still copyrighted, though <g>.


 So, you aren't concerned about people stealing from you on one level,
 but you are on another? :)


If you treat people with respect and honor, they'll respond in kind.

I've bought products where the maker treats me like a criminal. It 
always leaves me with a sour taste and a poor impression of that 
company. I don't believe that bodes well for the long term success of it.
May 10 2008
parent reply Fawzi Mohamed <fmohamed mac.com> writes:
On 2008-05-10 23:14:03 +0200, Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> said:


 darrylb wrote:

 What would really be more interesting, at least as far as I see it,
 is some mention of how you would know if you had been stolen from.
 Otherwise, saying anything like that is as hollow as saying, oh,
 'Each copy that was purchased was not stolen'. Well, duh. But without
 something like that, all you are really saying here is, is that you
 have no idea how much of your stuff is stolen from you. Fair enough
 if that works for you, but I wouldn't try to claim that every user of
 your stuff is honest, just based on the fact that all of your paying
 users paid you. :P


 
 I've never encountered indications of widespread illegal copying of it.
 
 

 They're still copyrighted, though <g>.


 So, you aren't concerned about people stealing from you on one level,
 but you are on another? :)


 
 If you treat people with respect and honor, they'll respond in kind.
 
 I've bought products where the maker treats me like a criminal. It 
 always leaves me with a sour taste and a poor impression of that 
 company. I don't believe that bodes well for the long term success of 
 it.


I completely agree with your approach, the thing is that the best way 
to fight against piracy is to compete with it, and offer a compelling 
alternative.

Most people understand and agree with the idea of paying for the work 
of others, draconian security make the life of those that pay (and that 
you want to keep) worse, without (normally) really making the life of 
pirates much more difficult, in the worst case they could make the 
pirated content even more attractive that your own.

Still I think that some measure, so that the step to pirated content 
must be made fully consciously, can be very effective.

The thing is that psychologically if it is too easy to get the pirated 
version people have the tendency of doing it saying to themselves that 
the author does not care about it.
So I find some measure to make it clear that you care about it (even 
indirectly like the "this book was prepared for xxxx) ok.

Fawzi
May 11 2008
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Fawzi,



 Most people understand and agree with the idea of paying for the work
 of others, draconian security make the life of those that pay (and
 that you want to keep) worse, without (normally) really making the
 life of pirates much more difficult, in the worst case they could make
 the pirated content even more attractive that your own.



I have thought it would be interesting to try a business model that is
something 
like "the product is free, support is not". The authors would publish the 
material for free and then make it clear that they accept donations and that 
they will put more priority on development activities that help those who 
are supporting them financially. They would of course still exercise there 
own judgment in what gets done but the timing... Also a million from Microsoft 
need not count as much as 50 from some broke collage student.

Anyway it would be an interesting experiment.
May 11 2008
next sibling parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
BCS wrote:


 Reply to Fawzi,
 
 

 Most people understand and agree with the idea of paying for the work
 of others, draconian security make the life of those that pay (and
 that you want to keep) worse, without (normally) really making the
 life of pirates much more difficult, in the worst case they could make
 the pirated content even more attractive that your own.


 
 
 I have thought it would be interesting to try a business model that is
 something like "the product is free, support is not". The authors would
 publish the material for free and then make it clear that they accept
 donations and that they will put more priority on development activities
 that help those who are supporting them financially. They would of course
 still exercise there own judgment in what gets done but the timing... Also
 a million from Microsoft need not count as much as 50 from some broke
 collage student.
 
 Anyway it would be an interesting experiment.


Well, there are quite a few successful companies which has such a business
model in the software business, so hardly what could be called an
experiment.

All Linux distributing companies (RedHat, Suse/Novell, Canonical), TrollTech
with Qt, mySQL (you know the thing ;), eZ (ez.no), and many many more.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
May 11 2008
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Lars,


 Well, there are quite a few successful companies which has such a
 business model in the software business, so hardly what could be
 called an experiment.
 
 All Linux distributing companies (RedHat, Suse/Novell, Canonical),
 TrollTech with Qt, mySQL (you know the thing ;), eZ (ez.no), and many
 many more.
 


Most of those, IIRC, have a free version and a for sale version and they 
provide tech support only on the for sale one. That not quite what I was 
thinking. I'm thinking, no for sale version at all. The company would just 
have a donations page, and an explicit statement that donations can effect 
the priority of fixing particular bugs and whatnot.
May 11 2008
next sibling parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
BCS wrote:


 Reply to Lars,
 

 Well, there are quite a few successful companies which has such a
 business model in the software business, so hardly what could be
 called an experiment.
 
 All Linux distributing companies (RedHat, Suse/Novell, Canonical),
 TrollTech with Qt, mySQL (you know the thing ;), eZ (ez.no), and many
 many more.
 


 
 Most of those, IIRC, have a free version and a for sale version and they
 provide tech support only on the for sale one. That not quite what I was
 thinking. I'm thinking, no for sale version at all. The company would just
 have a donations page, and an explicit statement that donations can effect
 the priority of fixing particular bugs and whatnot.


I don't see the difference? The software is the same - either you download
it, or you pay, then download it. Or you can download, then pay later if
you decide to use it.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
May 11 2008
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Lars,


 BCS wrote:
 

 Reply to Lars,
 

 Well, there are quite a few successful companies which has such a
 business model in the software business, so hardly what could be
 called an experiment.
 
 All Linux distributing companies (RedHat, Suse/Novell, Canonical),
 TrollTech with Qt, mySQL (you know the thing ;), eZ (ez.no), and
 many many more.
 


 Most of those, IIRC, have a free version and a for sale version and
 they provide tech support only on the for sale one. That not quite
 what I was thinking. I'm thinking, no for sale version at all. The
 company would just have a donations page, and an explicit statement
 that donations can effect the priority of fixing particular bugs and
 whatnot.
 


 I don't see the difference? The software is the same - either you
 download it, or you pay, then download it. Or you can download, then
 pay later if you decide to use it.
 


The difference is you never pay for the software, end of story. The cost, 
no matter what, is Zero. Possibly even the tech support would be free. It 
would be like if Walter started putting price tags on bugs "pay me $50 and 
I'll fix bug X sooner ($250 and I'll do it now) or don't and I'll get around 
to it sooner or later" (Not that I think he would do that, or that he should 
or should not) I would a a sort of vote with cash for what you think is
important. 
Not a good way to run a country, but it might work for a company.
May 11 2008
parent Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Lars,
 

 BCS wrote:


 Reply to Lars,


 Well, there are quite a few successful companies which has such a
 business model in the software business, so hardly what could be
 called an experiment.

 All Linux distributing companies (RedHat, Suse/Novell, Canonical),
 TrollTech with Qt, mySQL (you know the thing ;), eZ (ez.no), and
 many many more.


 Most of those, IIRC, have a free version and a for sale version and
 they provide tech support only on the for sale one. That not quite
 what I was thinking. I'm thinking, no for sale version at all. The
 company would just have a donations page, and an explicit statement
 that donations can effect the priority of fixing particular bugs and
 whatnot.


 I don't see the difference? The software is the same - either you
 download it, or you pay, then download it. Or you can download, then
 pay later if you decide to use it.


 
 The difference is you never pay for the software, end of story. The
 cost, no matter what, is Zero. Possibly even the tech support would be
 free. It would be like if Walter started putting price tags on bugs "pay
 me $50 and I'll fix bug X sooner ($250 and I'll do it now) or don't and
 I'll get around to it sooner or later" (Not that I think he would do
 that, or that he should or should not) I would a a sort of vote with
 cash for what you think is important. Not a good way to run a country,
 but it might work for a company.
 
 


also i forgot to mention, natural-docs operate in that matter. you can
pay to make your preferred language higher on the todo list.
May 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Lars,
 

 Well, there are quite a few successful companies which has such a
 business model in the software business, so hardly what could be
 called an experiment.

 All Linux distributing companies (RedHat, Suse/Novell, Canonical),
 TrollTech with Qt, mySQL (you know the thing ;), eZ (ez.no), and many
 many more.


 
 Most of those, IIRC, have a free version and a for sale version and they
 provide tech support only on the for sale one. That not quite what I was
 thinking. I'm thinking, no for sale version at all. The company would
 just have a donations page, and an explicit statement that donations can
 effect the priority of fixing particular bugs and whatnot.
 
 


I knew of a band that has exactly this model. they advertise on their
website the amount o money needed to record their next album (renting a
studio, and stuff like that) which surprisingly is in the range of
20K-30K$ (not millions as the record companies makes us think).
anyway, the idea is that the real fans, those that are willing to donate
money to the band have influence of the content of the album. so if all
the fans who paid want love songs, than the band will produce an album
of love songs. of course, the band reserves some creative judgment for
themselves.
Personally i'm not into that music so i don't know what happened to
them, but last time i looked at their site, probably a year ago, they
already had one album and half the money to produce the next one, or
something like that.
May 11 2008
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Yigal,


 I knew of a band that has exactly this model.
 the idea is that the real fans, those that are willing to
 donate
 money to the band have influence of the content of the album.


cool!
May 11 2008
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Most of those, IIRC, have a free version and a for sale version and they 
 provide tech support only on the for sale one. That not quite what I was 
 thinking. I'm thinking, no for sale version at all.


If you want to donate to Digital Mars (!), you can buy the C++ compiler 
http://www.digitalmars.com/shop.html or pick up a t-shirt at 
http://www.digitalmars.com/gift/index.html (I like the coffee cup best 
myself).

Or when you buy something from Amazon, enter the Amazon site through one 
of the Digital Mars affiliate links at 
http://www.digitalmars.com/bibliography.html

It's not exactly a donation because you're getting fair value for your 
dollar, but it does help DM keep the carrion birds away.



 The company would 
 just have a donations page, and an explicit statement that donations can 
 effect the priority of fixing particular bugs and whatnot.


This is not workable, because people will then have an expectation that 
if they donate a dollar, you'll be working for them. Inevitable hurt 
feelings on both sides will result. It's much better to have an explicit 
consulting hourly rate.
Aug 07 2008
parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:46:43 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:



 The company would 
 just have a donations page, and an explicit statement that donations can 
 effect the priority of fixing particular bugs and whatnot.


 
 This is not workable, because people will then have an expectation that 
 if they donate a dollar, you'll be working for them.


All people??? I donate to some businesses and I have NEVER expected that.
Not everyone is as bad as you seem to assume.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Aug 09 2008
prev sibling parent reply Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

   The authors would
 publish the material for free and then make it clear that they accept 
 donations and that they will put more priority on development activities 
 that help those who are supporting them financially. 


That's Oracle's model - "we'll fix bugs the bugs you want us to if you 
pay us to". That is, for an exorbitant fee, you can have the bugs that 
affect your system prioritized. (That's after charging $50k a seat for 
the software and asking companies to pay a full-time Oracle consultant 
to fix the numerous problems that add in their software to keep any 
other DBA from touching it.)

What this does, is makes the company put out a buggy, hard-to-use piece 
of software (since they'll make more money if they fix fewer bugs). This 
means product advertising becomes much more financially viable than QA, 
and they stick in a bunch of untested features hoping someone bites and 
then pays to get the issues sorted out.
May 11 2008
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Robert,


 BCS wrote:
 

 The authors would
 publish the material for free and then make it clear that they accept
 donations and that they will put more priority on development
 activities
 that help those who are supporting them financially.


 That's Oracle's model -


<G> I've heard of people's dealings with them. (They at one point tried to 
sell the state of Oregon one seat for every person in the state)

However...


 "we'll fix bugs the bugs you want us to if you
 pay us to". That is, for an exorbitant fee, you can have the bugs that
 affect your system prioritized. 


nix the exorbitant fee and replace it with a reasonable one ...


 (That's after charging $50k a seat for
 the software 


charge nothing for the program to began with...


 and asking companies to pay a full-time Oracle consultant
 to fix the numerous problems that add in their software to keep any
 other DBA from touching it.)


give a "nice user experience"...


 
 What this does, is makes the company put out a buggy, hard-to-use
 piece of software (since they'll make more money if they fix fewer
 bugs). 


and somehow avoid human nature regarding that and you might actually be able 
to make it work.

As I said, it would be an experiment.
May 11 2008
parent reply Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Robert,
 

 BCS wrote:


 The authors would
 publish the material for free and then make it clear that they accept
 donations and that they will put more priority on development
 activities
 that help those who are supporting them financially.


 That's Oracle's model -


 
 <G> I've heard of people's dealings with them. (They at one point tried 
 to sell the state of Oregon one seat for every person in the state)
 
 However...
 

 "we'll fix bugs the bugs you want us to if you
 pay us to". That is, for an exorbitant fee, you can have the bugs that
 affect your system prioritized. 


 
 nix the exorbitant fee and replace it with a reasonable one ...
 

 (That's after charging $50k a seat for
 the software 


 
 charge nothing for the program to began with...
 

 and asking companies to pay a full-time Oracle consultant
 to fix the numerous problems that add in their software to keep any
 other DBA from touching it.)


 
 give a "nice user experience"...
 

 What this does, is makes the company put out a buggy, hard-to-use
 piece of software (since they'll make more money if they fix fewer
 bugs). 


 
 and somehow avoid human nature regarding that and you might actually be 
 able to make it work.


Aye, there's the rub.


 As I said, it would be an experiment.


I'll give you that it would be an interesting experiment, but in my 
software, I'd rather prioritize the bugs that affect the largest group 
of users or are more important to the system in general than the ones 
that affect the highest-paying users. New features, though, I'd be more 
willing to see an auction system for.
May 11 2008
parent janderson <askme me.com> writes:
Robert Fraser wrote:

 BCS wrote:

 Reply to Robert,


 BCS wrote:


 The authors would
 publish the material for free and then make it clear that they accept
 donations and that they will put more priority on development
 activities
 that help those who are supporting them financially.


 That's Oracle's model -


 <G> I've heard of people's dealings with them. (They at one point 
 tried to sell the state of Oregon one seat for every person in the state)

 However...


 "we'll fix bugs the bugs you want us to if you
 pay us to". That is, for an exorbitant fee, you can have the bugs that
 affect your system prioritized. 


 nix the exorbitant fee and replace it with a reasonable one ...


 (That's after charging $50k a seat for
 the software 


 charge nothing for the program to began with...


 and asking companies to pay a full-time Oracle consultant
 to fix the numerous problems that add in their software to keep any
 other DBA from touching it.)


 give a "nice user experience"...


 What this does, is makes the company put out a buggy, hard-to-use
 piece of software (since they'll make more money if they fix fewer
 bugs). 


 and somehow avoid human nature regarding that and you might actually 
 be able to make it work.


 
 Aye, there's the rub.
 

 As I said, it would be an experiment.


 
 I'll give you that it would be an interesting experiment, but in my 
 software, I'd rather prioritize the bugs that affect the largest group 
 of users or are more important to the system in general than the ones 
 that affect the highest-paying users. New features, though, I'd be more 
 willing to see an auction system for.


I think Walter should instrument a policy where people can pay for 
certain bugs to be moved up in the prioritization queue.  It may even 
make companies feel safer using DMD if they can pay for particular bugs 
to be fixed.  However you'd have to be careful with a system like that, 
that high priority bugs are not just left there because they generate a 
lot of cash.  Maybe the money could go slowly down overtime, or people 
could withdraw their money if the bug was not fixed within there time 
frame.

Then I guess it could work like this.  Someone would post if you get bug 
X finished by Data Y then I'll pay you $G.

-Joel
May 12 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Tower Ty <towerty msn.com.au> writes:
The world is a changing and changed place

When I wanted to know something I went to a library and looked it up and / or
borrowed the book. I was not supposed to copy what I needed but I did , that
was why I went to get it.

Everybody did . 
When I could afford to buy my own reference books I only bought what I had to
and still used the Library where I could. 

This saved the trees. 
Now the library is linked to my home and there are many more Libraries and
paper copies are less needed and will become cherished antiques . This will
save more trees and thats good because they really are what keeps us alive by
making oxygen and consuming carbon dioxide.

The typed word on the Internet is public as soon as its typed. Trying to hang
on to a conceived right to own those words or that knowledge is flawed by this
new fact above.
Layers will try to maintain it but it will not be enforceable until all
countries in the world agree to accept that copyright should exist.

This world wide agreement will never happen. 
Because one race will never trust another race nor respect its views it cant
happen . Like religious fervour every religion believes it is irrefutably right
. Every race believes this and every country will want something different .

So in my opinion what has to happen needs to happen at the time the words are
typed , ie lodge your book with a restricted site ,the publisher , who pays you
there and then . A one time fee as agreed . he publisher distributes the book
and takes the risks ,because once another person has purchased the book and
downloaded it , it becomes their property. 

You can try to hang onto a right but it will be doomed to fail
The writers must accept now that the days of making big money writing and
living of the royalties died when consumers became international . The Internet
is just one aspect of that. Take China with the CD's right now
May 10 2008
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Tower,

 
 The writers must accept now that the days of making big money writing
 and living of the royalties died when consumers became international .
 The Internet is just one aspect of that. Take China with the CD's
 right now
 


I agree with part of that, that trying to control access to digital media 
is pointless. However I think it is right and just for an author to ask for 
profit from there work. Otherwise where is the motivation? Material profit 
is a much better motivator than altruistic betterment of society. (USSR vs. 
US?)

Further more, all that aside I have no issue with people refusing to be a 
part in circumventing that motivation nor author bitching about people who do.
May 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Hello Walter,


 Yigal Chripun wrote:
 

 I do see the problem in the above idealized argument, but the problem
 is that the current situation was created by the very organizations
 who represent content creators like the RIAA and MPAA. They have
 cultivated this culture of disrespect towards the content creators
 via their disrespect towards the users of the content and via their
 DRM schemes. trust and respect goes both ways. This is why in
 free-software communities copy-rights are always respected (via
 mutual respect and trust instead of fear and DRM).
 


 I'm rather proud that my compilers are not, have never, and never will
 be copy protected, DRM'd, require activation, phone home, nag for
 registration, etc.
 
 I've been amply rewarded by discovering that my customers are nearly
 without exception decent, honorable, and nice people. I don't know if
 that is cause or effect, but it's fine with me either way.
 
 They're still copyrighted, though <g>.
 



Yes, clearly it is unwise to protect a product excessively with the assumption 
that all your customers are criminals.  Doing so speaks volumes; and in the 
end, copy protection schemes probably do little to prevent pirating.  If 
they actually manage some effectiveness, my guess is that the expense involved 
in adopting the anti-pirating scheme might be counteract the profits in the 
the long run (combine that with mounting customer frustration, and the strategy 
is possibly worse... it could mean loss of customer base).  It's the same 
with all controls that are unable to be enforced. 

BUT, the fact that a company uses or doesn't use a copy protection scheme, 
may or may not mean they trust their customers more or less.  In actual fact, 
it may just be another marketing move to make their customers feel good about 
themselves and the company to spin a reason to the Board why it isn't going 
to implement any form of anti-piracy protection in it's software (could be 
a very good reason).  Not to say that's what you do... I'm just saying that 
doing so doesn't necessarily make customer or company respectable.  Such 
respectability could quite easily be destroyed by some other poor
customer/company 
relationship.  Respectability, I'm guessing, is more related to a consistant 
track record of conscientiousness, politeness, responsiveness, and honesty 
on the companies part.  But doing all that does not guarantee "decent,
honorable, 
and nice" customers (or company).  That's really just a fantasy.

Now, that's not what we're talking about here.  Here we are wondering why 
the D newsgroup needs to be used as a medium for spreading and encouraging 
illegal copies of material -- that's reflects an aspect of honesty in this 
newsgroup.  We are not analyzing Google here and why it's so easy to find 
illegal content by using that search engine.  We are talking about this
newsgroup... 
which, I hope, most of us want to keep respectable.  If this newsgroup wants 
to be respectable, it has to act so.  If it doesn't act so, it should be 
encouraged to act so.  If it can't be encouraged to act so, perhaps it should 
be enforced to act so.  If no one enforces this, then we invite problems 
as people with no respect (yes, they do exist!) push the limits to test how 
far they can go.

The fact that this newsgroup seems to allow freedoms that trample out other's 
freedoms (in the name of free speech -- see extreme racism in other posts) 
shows that there is more than a little contradiction going on here about 
what free speech means.  The line always has to be drawn somewhere.  By now 
it should be obvious that people will not always /choose/ to be respectable 
and honorable /even/ if you treat them so... assuming that they will does 
not make problems go away. So there will always be a time where a person 
has to step in and say "no".  If we consistantly choose to overlook problems 
like this, then we are asking to be plagued by much worse ones down the road.

There is no need for dictatorial intervention if these things are just simply 
delt with immediately.  This would be seen as simple policy in any other 
company that cared about it's image.

-JJR
May 10 2008
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
John Reimer wrote:

 The fact that this newsgroup seems to allow freedoms that trample out 
 other's freedoms (in the name of free speech -- see extreme racism in 
 other posts) shows that there is more than a little contradiction going 
 on here about what free speech means.


Just an important note: free speech does not imply that someone else 
must provide a platform for it. It means that the government cannot 
censor it.

For example, a privately published newspaper is not obligated to print 
all points of view. But the government is not allowed to order the 
newspaper to print or not print a certain opinion.
May 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
Manfred Nowak wrote:

 Yigal Chripun wrote:
 

 The torrent by itself should not be illegal.


 
 I disagree.
 
 A torrent is a machine made and machine readable citation of _some_ 
 source. Without the content of the _original_ source a torrent would be 
 meaningless. Therefore a torrent is purely mechanical "derived work" 
 and _should_ require the same treatment as the original source. 
 
 

 Had I downloaded the book via the above torrent and than sent a
 paycheck to the authors, would I still be violating the copyright?


 
 You _should_ be violating the copyright, because the content of the 
 book is not licensed on a "try before you buy" basis "without the prior 
 written permission".
 
 

 (which they could do simply because they prefer this method of
 downloading).


 
 In some countries this might be called "gross negligence".
 
 -manfred


Do all the books in the library have a copyright that specifically
allows a "try before you buy" basis "without the prior written
permission", as you say? of course not.

Let me ask you my question again (slightly differently):
Had I sent a paycheck to the authors and then downloaded the book via
the above torrent, would I still be violating the copyright?

I prefer JJR's notion of common courtesy. I only disagree that being
respectful means avoid mentioning this torrent [that was the first
result in google it seems]. I agree with JJR that we should respect the
creators, only my view point is that as long as I've paid the authors it
shouldn't matter that much if I used the torrent link or downloaded via
the official site.

--Yigal
May 10 2008
parent reply Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
Manfred Nowak wrote:
<snip>

 Your respect has to go to the publisher as well.
 
 -manfred


in what way did I disrespect the publisher? the copyrights belong to the
authors, not the publisher. either I can use the services of the
publisher and buy a paper book and thus will pay the publisher and the
author, or I can download an ebook and pay the author (I also can buy an
ebook through the publisher, and get an ebook plus the benefit of it
being under some unnecessary protection scheme like DRM or password
protection). Where does it say that that specific publisher has a legal
right to be the sole publisher of the work?
what if I asked Lars directly for a copy of the book? what if Lars is my
neighbor and I prefer to pay him directly than drive to the mall to buy
his book in the book store?

The whole point of the internet as a medium of distribution is that I
don't have to go through a middle-man anymore. Book publishers will not
go away, since there will always be need for real paper books. it's just
that they are no longer the only medium to distribute one's creation.

My point was that the torrent link by itself is not illegal. there are
both legal and illegal uses for that same torrent link.

--Yigal
May 11 2008
parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Yigal Chripun wrote:


 Manfred Nowak wrote:
 <snip>

 Your respect has to go to the publisher as well.
 
 -manfred


 
 in what way did I disrespect the publisher? the copyrights belong to the
 authors, not the publisher. either I can use the services of the
 publisher and buy a paper book and thus will pay the publisher and the
 author, or I can download an ebook and pay the author (I also can buy an
 ebook through the publisher, and get an ebook plus the benefit of it
 being under some unnecessary protection scheme like DRM or password
 protection). Where does it say that that specific publisher has a legal
 right to be the sole publisher of the work?
 what if I asked Lars directly for a copy of the book? what if Lars is my
 neighbor and I prefer to pay him directly than drive to the mall to buy
 his book in the book store?


When it comes to the publisher, it has a much bigger role than just printing
it - indeed at least 4 persons at Apress (among them 2 types of editors) +
one external technical editor has been involved in creating the product
that has resulted in both the printed version and the ebook, and so the
publisher has an obvious financial stake in both versions. Thus I am not
legally entitled to sell copies of the book and take the money myself,
something I couldn't do in any case as I have 3 co-authors. Then there is
the last aspect of this particular book, and that is that all money that
otherwise would have gone to us authors (not the publisher's share, are
donated back to the D community (DSource and Tango sofar).

So in effect, this particular book wouldn't have happened at all without a
publisher.



 
 The whole point of the internet as a medium of distribution is that I
 don't have to go through a middle-man anymore. Book publishers will not
 go away, since there will always be need for real paper books. it's just
 that they are no longer the only medium to distribute one's creation.


The medium is not at all the point of the publisher, indeed most publishers
don't print anything at all, that is the job of a printing shop. The
publisher is there to make sure the contents of the book are presented
properly, and can mean a fairly large amount of work on their part.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
May 11 2008
next sibling parent Tower Ty <tytower hotmail.com> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund Wrote:


Then there is


t>he last aspect of this particular book, and that is that all money that
o>therwise would have gone to us authors (not the publisher's share, are

donated back to the D community (DSource and Tango sofar).


what you do with your money is your business.

If it is so donated back to the D community then nothing is lost by a torrent
download as it will only be downloaded by existing or future members of the D
Community
May 11 2008
prev sibling parent Yigal Chripun <yigal100 gmail.com> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:


 When it comes to the publisher, it has a much bigger role than just printing
 it - indeed at least 4 persons at Apress (among them 2 types of editors) +
 one external technical editor has been involved in creating the product
 that has resulted in both the printed version and the ebook, and so the
 publisher has an obvious financial stake in both versions. Thus I am not
 legally entitled to sell copies of the book and take the money myself,
 something I couldn't do in any case as I have 3 co-authors. Then there is
 the last aspect of this particular book, and that is that all money that
 otherwise would have gone to us authors (not the publisher's share, are
 donated back to the D community (DSource and Tango sofar).
 
 So in effect, this particular book wouldn't have happened at all without a
 publisher.
 
 


when I used your name in my posts that was meant to mean all the authors
of the book of course, not just you :) i was just lazy typing all the
names so i chose you since you were the one who initially replied.
my question is this: if you (all the authors) are not entitled to sell
the book yourselves, does it mean than that your publisher has some part
of the copy-rights in the book?
if the answer is yes than the situation is completely different from
what i thought, since the point was not violating anyones copy-rights.
May 11 2008
prev sibling parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, 10 May 2008 10:00:21 +0000, Manfred Nowak wrote:


 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
 

 If someone provided us with such information in private communication
 (which is easy to accomplish), then this would be true.


 
 I disagree.
 
 If someone has the (legal) (co-)ownership of some information, which is
 believed to be not in common knowledge, then only in rare circumstances
 one has the right to restrict the channel of distributions for that
 information.
 
 Without this principle you would not have been able to publish your
 book. But the same principle holds for Bob and his information of
 existing torrents.
 
 

 did in a followup show that he thinks such breaches of copyright are
 ok.


 
 I disagree. To me his statements do not expose such a thinking.
 
 He only emphasizes the pure fact, that there exists a free _torrent_ for
 _some_ ebook, which looks like to be the one of you and your colleagues.
 Bob did not give any clue, that the "advertized" ebook is indeed that of
 you and your colleagues.
 
 Furthermore it seems to be unknown, where Bob resides and therefore it
 is pure speculation that he might be bound to some copyright laws.
 
 -manfred


I think this is silly, manfred .  You are getting all technical over the
details.  It appears you are defending Bob's "freedom" to post the link
and disregarding the actual /effect/ of his post, which really is what is
important here.  Wouldn't it be better to consider the effect than to
baffle ourselves over the legality of the medium?  DRM, intellectual
property, and copyright will always have muddy waters because of their
very nature... but why don't we just keep it simple and recognize the need
for respect of the author's work.  It's likely the authors would have to
"buy" the book to give it away, so perhaps the readers should too?

Honestly, if nobody says something against this habit, this forum will
eventually be overwhelmed by this very mentality: each person decides for
himself what's free.  The inconsistancy among the definitions of freedom
will eventually completely cripple the interactions across cultures.
Perhaps that just the way it has to go, but I think it's pretty simple
just to respect the authors work and keep such links out of this public
forum.

-JJR
May 10 2008
prev sibling parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, 10 May 2008 06:21:57 +0000, Manfred Nowak wrote:


 John Reimer wrote:
 

 I'm especially surprised people do this in the very forum in which the
 authors participate.  Kind of a slap in their face, really.


 
 Some years ago my statement of intent to bind executables to specific
 hardware was arraigned here.
 
 I wonder how you would call that arraigning, when considering your
 statement above. For this please observe, that printing a book is also
 binding some intellectual property to some specific hardware.
 
 Please observe further, that the owners of the website holding the
 torrent promise to remove torrents for copyrighted files from their
 website on request of the copyright holder. I believe that no one is
 allowed to criticize a decision of copyright holders to take no action
 on beeing informed of a possible copyright breach. Especially is an
 information on a possible copyright breach no slap in the face of holder
 of the copyright.
 
 -manfred



Manfred,

Once again, my post did not approach the topic of drm or copyright 
holding.  It referred to common courtesy, respect for investment of work 
done under the terms it was completed.  Posting such a link is not 
helpful, useful or respectful to it's authors, unless the authors have 
given express permission to do so.  Even opensource operates under 
similar principles of courtesy.  And indeed, litigation can and may occur 
if the opensource licenses aren't followed.  It that sense even 
opensource "freedom" comes with it's own set of controls. 

I see, though, that the demand for a subjective "freedom" that fits each 
persons ideals, is becoming more the cultural norm.  I sorry to see this 
because it lacks consistancy and respect for a persons contributions.

-JJR
May 10 2008
parent reply Fawzi Mohamed <fmohamed mac.com> writes:
On 2008-05-10 15:25:52 +0200, John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> said:


 On Sat, 10 May 2008 06:21:57 +0000, Manfred Nowak wrote:
 

 John Reimer wrote:
 

 I'm especially surprised people do this in the very forum in which the
 authors participate.  Kind of a slap in their face, really.


 
 Some years ago my statement of intent to bind executables to specific
 hardware was arraigned here.
 
 I wonder how you would call that arraigning, when considering your
 statement above. For this please observe, that printing a book is also
 binding some intellectual property to some specific hardware.
 
 Please observe further, that the owners of the website holding the
 torrent promise to remove torrents for copyrighted files from their
 website on request of the copyright holder. I believe that no one is
 allowed to criticize a decision of copyright holders to take no action
 on beeing informed of a possible copyright breach. Especially is an
 information on a possible copyright breach no slap in the face of holder
 of the copyright.
 
 -manfred


 
 
 Manfred,
 
 Once again, my post did not approach the topic of drm or copyright
 holding.  It referred to common courtesy, respect for investment of work
 done under the terms it was completed.  Posting such a link is not
 helpful, useful or respectful to it's authors, unless the authors have
 given express permission to do so.  Even opensource operates under
 similar principles of courtesy.  And indeed, litigation can and may occur
 if the opensource licenses aren't followed.  It that sense even
 opensource "freedom" comes with it's own set of controls.
 
 I see, though, that the demand for a subjective "freedom" that fits each
 persons ideals, is becoming more the cultural norm.  I sorry to see this
 because it lacks consistancy and respect for a persons contributions.
 
 -JJR


The original goal of copyright was to support the development of new work.
I fully support and agree with that goal.
I often don't support how the law implements it, but the goal is worthwhile.
With respect to this I found the way the numpy book was distributed 
interesting (see http://www.tramy.us/), limited time and money.
People that do some work should be compensated for it.
In this case I fully agree that posting such a link just shows 
disrespect for the work
that the authors have done.

With respect to the way the book is distributed (and it is a good book 
and I paid for it, and I think it is worth it), I had some reservation 
to the fact that it is encrypted, I find an approach like the one used 
by http://www.pragprog.com/ (generate a pdf just for you with written 
in in each page <This book was generated for xxxx>) much better and 
even more effective.
Anyway (to my surprise) I didn't have any problem with the encryption, 
neither on mac not on linux.
I had thought about stripping it immediately, but I still haven't done it.

Fawzi
May 10 2008
parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Fawzi Mohamed wrote:


 With respect to the way the book is distributed (and it is a good book
 and I paid for it, and I think it is worth it), I had some reservation
 to the fact that it is encrypted, I find an approach like the one used
 by http://www.pragprog.com/ (generate a pdf just for you with written
 in in each page <This book was generated for xxxx>) much better and
 even more effective.
 Anyway (to my surprise) I didn't have any problem with the encryption,
 neither on mac not on linux.
 I had thought about stripping it immediately, but I still haven't done it.


I suppose the simple password on the ebook can be considered DRM in some
fashion, but kwallet on KDE/linux remembers it for me, and so I only had to
write it the first time (and I personally think that would be a descent
thinkg of any PDF reader to do). 

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
May 10 2008
parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 Fawzi Mohamed wrote:
 

 With respect to the way the book is distributed (and it is a good book
 and I paid for it, and I think it is worth it), I had some reservation
 to the fact that it is encrypted, I find an approach like the one used
 by http://www.pragprog.com/ (generate a pdf just for you with written
 in in each page <This book was generated for xxxx>) much better and
 even more effective.
 Anyway (to my surprise) I didn't have any problem with the encryption,
 neither on mac not on linux.
 I had thought about stripping it immediately, but I still haven't done it.


 
 I suppose the simple password on the ebook can be considered DRM in some
 fashion, but kwallet on KDE/linux remembers it for me, and so I only had to
 write it the first time (and I personally think that would be a descent
 thinkg of any PDF reader to do). 


Acrobat reader does not, so I resorted to removing the password.  It 
seems a rather silly form of DRM anyway.  A pirate only needs distribute 
the password with the file to circumvent it.

--bb
May 10 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent janderson <askme me.com> writes:
soup2nuts wrote:

 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still
considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to pick up,
something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?


http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?Books__and__Papers

-Joel
May 09 2008
prev sibling parent reply bob <bobbyx msn.com.au> writes:
soup2nuts Wrote:


 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still
considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to pick up,
something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?



http://www.mininova.org/tor/1106628
May 14 2008
parent reply Robert Fraser <fraserofthenight gmail.com> writes:
bob wrote:

 soup2nuts Wrote:
 

 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language still
considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent book to pick up,
something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?


 
 
 [link removed]


Again? I thought we just _did_ this!
May 14 2008
parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Robert Fraser wrote:

 bob wrote:

 soup2nuts Wrote:


 So are there any free ebooks out there for D or is this language 
 still considered to be too new? And if there aren't what's a decent 
 book to pick up, something the covers all the concepts fairly in depth?



 [link removed]


 
 Again? I thought we just _did_ this!


I think bob must have missed the memo.

--bb
May 14 2008