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digitalmars.D.bugs - Tabs & spaces

reply "The Dr ... who?" <thedr who.com> writes:
Walter

I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a PITA when
viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have been set
to another tab setting.

Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't change to
just spaces only?
Jun 12 2004
next sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"The Dr ... who?" <thedr who.com> wrote in message
news:cagnmh$1md2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a PITA


when

 viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have


been set

 to another tab setting.


Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every TTY
I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops at
8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.
Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


 Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't


change to

 just spaces only?


Habit <g>.
Jun 13 2004
next sibling parent reply Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

"The Dr ... who?" <thedr who.com> wrote in message
news:cagnmh$1md2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a PITA


when

 viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have


been set

 to another tab setting.


Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every TTY
I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops at
8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.
Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


you are stuck in the past, sorry.

Ant
Jun 13 2004
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Ant" <Ant_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:caihjb$1714$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 In article <caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every




TTY

I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops




at

8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.
Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser printer,
the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab stops
wired in <g>.
Jun 13 2004
parent reply Ant <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> writes:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:


 
 "Ant" <Ant_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:caihjb$1714$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 In article <caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every




 TTY

I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops




 at

8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.
Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 
 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser printer,
 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab stops
 wired in <g>.


They are also living in the past ;)
printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
All posters on this thread use tabs.
inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
all of them redefine the tab stops.

Ant
Jun 13 2004
next sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Ant" <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.06.14.02.07.52.929078 yahoo.ca...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:

 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser




printer,

 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab




stops

 wired in <g>.


 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.
 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


I use microEmacs. Tabs are fixed at 8 <g>.

But seriously, if you use non-8 character tabs, the code won't print without
using a special print program (when I want to print code, I don't want to
look up the printer driver and try to figure out what arcane way to reset
the tab stops, print, then set it back, I just want to print it), it won't
look right in the source level debugger, it won't work as <pre></pre> in
html pages, it won't 'type' to the screen on command prompt, etc. I don't
want to run it through a perl script just so I can look at it. Non-8 tabs
always going to be out of step with the way everything works. The code will
always format like **** when emailed to someone who can't print it without
special settings, etc. It might be fine for closely held source, but for
widely distributed source, tabs need to kowtow to the default on practically
every piece of hardware and software that displays ascii text.

I know lots of code editors that have soft tab settings. But as soon as you
leave that environment, every other program or hardware that displays text
will go awry with the result.

Distributed source code should be context-free, i.e. it shouldn't need to
come with an external set of instructions saying what format it is in. And
nobody ever bothers giving such instructions, so the inevitable result is
the code looks like **** when brought up in an editor.
Jun 13 2004
next sibling parent reply Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:05:32 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com> 
wrote:

 "Ant" <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> wrote in message
 news:pan.2004.06.14.02.07.52.929078 yahoo.ca...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:

 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser




 printer,

 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab




 stops

 wired in <g>.


 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.
 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


 I use microEmacs. Tabs are fixed at 8 <g>.

 But seriously, if you use non-8 character tabs, the code won't print 
 without
 using a special print program (when I want to print code, I don't want to
 look up the printer driver and try to figure out what arcane way to reset
 the tab stops, print, then set it back, I just want to print it), it 
 won't
 look right in the source level debugger, it won't work as <pre></pre> in
 html pages, it won't 'type' to the screen on command prompt, etc. I don't
 want to run it through a perl script just so I can look at it. Non-8 tabs
 always going to be out of step with the way everything works. The code 
 will
 always format like **** when emailed to someone who can't print it 
 without
 special settings, etc. It might be fine for closely held source, but for
 widely distributed source, tabs need to kowtow to the default on 
 practically
 every piece of hardware and software that displays ascii text.

 I know lots of code editors that have soft tab settings. But as soon as 
 you
 leave that environment, every other program or hardware that displays 
 text
 will go awry with the result.

 Distributed source code should be context-free, i.e. it shouldn't need to
 come with an external set of instructions saying what format it is in. 
 And
 nobody ever bothers giving such instructions, so the inevitable result is
 the code looks like **** when brought up in an editor.


I don't think I understand the problem here.. I use MSVC, I set my tabs to 
4 spaces, meaning that when I press TAB it inserts the \t char into my 
source file and displays it as 4 spaces.

So if I open my source in notepad it reads \t and displays it as 8 spaces.

It does not look like **** it looks fine, it simply has more horizontal 
space.

 From what you're saying if I print it in MSVC it will look like it does in 
notepad? or are you saying something else?

If I need something in the code to line up under all situations i.e. 
comments on table columns etc, I will use spaces. I know for a fact that a 
space will take up 1 characters worth of space all the time, everywhere.

What I *never* do is use both spaces AND tabs on one line, as this will 
never look right except under the same conditions as I wrote it.

This is assuming they don't display it using non fixed-width fonts, in 
which case it doesn't matter what you do it won't line up, ever.

Regan

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 13 2004
next sibling parent reply "Matthew" <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> writes:
"Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
news:opr9kj2ig85a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:05:32 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

 "Ant" <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> wrote in message
 news:pan.2004.06.14.02.07.52.929078 yahoo.ca...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:

 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser




 printer,

 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab




 stops

 wired in <g>.


 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.
 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


 I use microEmacs. Tabs are fixed at 8 <g>.

 But seriously, if you use non-8 character tabs, the code won't print
 without
 using a special print program (when I want to print code, I don't want to
 look up the printer driver and try to figure out what arcane way to reset
 the tab stops, print, then set it back, I just want to print it), it
 won't
 look right in the source level debugger, it won't work as <pre></pre> in
 html pages, it won't 'type' to the screen on command prompt, etc. I don't
 want to run it through a perl script just so I can look at it. Non-8 tabs
 always going to be out of step with the way everything works. The code
 will
 always format like **** when emailed to someone who can't print it
 without
 special settings, etc. It might be fine for closely held source, but for
 widely distributed source, tabs need to kowtow to the default on
 practically
 every piece of hardware and software that displays ascii text.

 I know lots of code editors that have soft tab settings. But as soon as
 you
 leave that environment, every other program or hardware that displays
 text
 will go awry with the result.

 Distributed source code should be context-free, i.e. it shouldn't need to
 come with an external set of instructions saying what format it is in.
 And
 nobody ever bothers giving such instructions, so the inevitable result is
 the code looks like **** when brought up in an editor.


 I don't think I understand the problem here.. I use MSVC, I set my tabs to
 4 spaces, meaning that when I press TAB it inserts the \t char into my
 source file and displays it as 4 spaces.

 So if I open my source in notepad it reads \t and displays it as 8 spaces.

 It does not look like **** it looks fine, it simply has more horizontal
 space.

  From what you're saying if I print it in MSVC it will look like it does in
 notepad? or are you saying something else?

 If I need something in the code to line up under all situations i.e.
 comments on table columns etc, I will use spaces. I know for a fact that a
 space will take up 1 characters worth of space all the time, everywhere.

 What I *never* do is use both spaces AND tabs on one line, as this will
 never look right except under the same conditions as I wrote it.

 This is assuming they don't display it using non fixed-width fonts, in
 which case it doesn't matter what you do it won't line up, ever.


Walter uses an indentation scheme that I'm familiar with via (g)vim. Basically,
if the indent is odd (i.e. 1st, 3rd, 5th), then the editor inserts 4 spaces. For
even indents (2nd, 4th, etc.) then it inserts a single hard tab. Since such
editors use tabstop=8, it all looks dandy. Also, any device which does not
redefine the tabstop from 8 will also display correctly. That's the source of
Walter's talking about printers, etc.

The problem is that the choice of 8 spaces per tabstop is one of those horrible
decisions we're perpetually stuck with. Many editors have provided the ability
to
redefine the tabstop from 8 to a smaller value. This is most often 4, but I've
seen 3, 2, 1 and even 5! Anyway, whatever the size, these programs are all,
strictly, wrong. So Walter is quite correct that he's correct. <g>

However, most of us use such "wrong" editors, and so when one opens up a
4(space)/8(tab) document with, say, 4 spaces, the indentation is shot to hell,
and the code looks RS.

Since vim allows you to elect to use all spaces, rather than mixed space+tab,
and
makes backspace still act as if you've deleted a tab (rather than needing to do
three more backspaces, like you do in some other dumb ass editors), I cannot
believe emacs does not have the same facility. Therefore, it would cost Walter
nothing to change to all spaces, and would mean that anyone - either D-philes
like us, or "not so sure"s - looking at the code would see all the high quality
splendour that is big-W's codified splendour.

Failing that, he could attain the same spell-binding of his readers by just
including an untabification step in the release of Phobos. Again, virtually no
effort, and a manifest gain.
Jun 13 2004
parent reply Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:31:45 +1000, Matthew 
<admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> wrote:

 "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
 news:opr9kj2ig85a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:05:32 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

 "Ant" <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> wrote in message
 news:pan.2004.06.14.02.07.52.929078 yahoo.ca...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:

 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser




 printer,

 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character 






 tab

 stops

 wired in <g>.


 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.
 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


 I use microEmacs. Tabs are fixed at 8 <g>.

 But seriously, if you use non-8 character tabs, the code won't print
 without
 using a special print program (when I want to print code, I don't 


 want to

 look up the printer driver and try to figure out what arcane way to 


 reset

 the tab stops, print, then set it back, I just want to print it), it
 won't
 look right in the source level debugger, it won't work as <pre></pre> 


 in

 html pages, it won't 'type' to the screen on command prompt, etc. I 


 don't

 want to run it through a perl script just so I can look at it. Non-8 


 tabs

 always going to be out of step with the way everything works. The code
 will
 always format like **** when emailed to someone who can't print it
 without
 special settings, etc. It might be fine for closely held source, but 


 for

 widely distributed source, tabs need to kowtow to the default on
 practically
 every piece of hardware and software that displays ascii text.

 I know lots of code editors that have soft tab settings. But as soon 


 as

 you
 leave that environment, every other program or hardware that displays
 text
 will go awry with the result.

 Distributed source code should be context-free, i.e. it shouldn't 


 need to

 come with an external set of instructions saying what format it is in.
 And
 nobody ever bothers giving such instructions, so the inevitable 


 result is

 the code looks like **** when brought up in an editor.


 I don't think I understand the problem here.. I use MSVC, I set my tabs 
 to
 4 spaces, meaning that when I press TAB it inserts the \t char into my
 source file and displays it as 4 spaces.

 So if I open my source in notepad it reads \t and displays it as 8 
 spaces.

 It does not look like **** it looks fine, it simply has more horizontal
 space.

  From what you're saying if I print it in MSVC it will look like it 
 does in
 notepad? or are you saying something else?

 If I need something in the code to line up under all situations i.e.
 comments on table columns etc, I will use spaces. I know for a fact 
 that a
 space will take up 1 characters worth of space all the time, everywhere.

 What I *never* do is use both spaces AND tabs on one line, as this will
 never look right except under the same conditions as I wrote it.

 This is assuming they don't display it using non fixed-width fonts, in
 which case it doesn't matter what you do it won't line up, ever.


 Walter uses an indentation scheme that I'm familiar with via (g)vim. 
 Basically,
 if the indent is odd (i.e. 1st, 3rd, 5th), then the editor inserts 4 
 spaces. For
 even indents (2nd, 4th, etc.) then it inserts a single hard tab.


So you're saying it mixes spaces and tabs on a single line? i.e.

     I pressed tab once
\tI pressed tab twice
\t    I pressed tab 3 times
\t\tI pressed tab 4 times
\t\t    I pressed tab 5 times

yes?

If so, yuck! no wonder there is a problem! What crack addled chimpanzee 
decided that was a good idea??!


 Since such
 editors use tabstop=8, it all looks dandy. Also, any device which does 
 not
 redefine the tabstop from 8 will also display correctly. That's the 
 source of
 Walter's talking about printers, etc.


So you cannot tell a printer to use a different tabstop?


 The problem is that the choice of 8 spaces per tabstop is one of those 
 horrible
 decisions we're perpetually stuck with.


Hindsight is 20-20.


 Many editors have provided the ability to
 redefine the tabstop from 8 to a smaller value. This is most often 4, 
 but I've
 seen 3, 2, 1 and even 5! Anyway, whatever the size, these programs are 
 all,
 strictly, wrong. So Walter is quite correct that he's correct. <g>


These programs are only strictly wrong if they are supposed to be WYSIWYG 
editors. If not, then there is nothing wrong with displaying a tab as 4 
spaces, and saving it in the file as a single tab.

I prefer WYTIWYG (what you type is what you get) and I'll display it 
however you tell me to editors.


 However, most of us use such "wrong" editors, and so when one opens up a
 4(space)/8(tab) document with, say, 4 spaces, the indentation is shot to 
 hell,
 and the code looks RS.


Indeed.


 Since vim allows you to elect to use all spaces, rather than mixed 
 space+tab, and
 makes backspace still act as if you've deleted a tab (rather than 
 needing to do
 three more backspaces, like you do in some other dumb ass editors), I 
 cannot
 believe emacs does not have the same facility. Therefore, it would cost 
 Walter
 nothing to change to all spaces, and would mean that anyone - either 
 D-philes
 like us, or "not so sure"s - looking at the code would see all the high 
 quality
 splendour that is big-W's codified splendour.


LOL. flattery will get you no-where methinks.


 Failing that, he could attain the same spell-binding of his readers by 
 just
 including an untabification step in the release of Phobos. Again, 
 virtually no
 effort, and a manifest gain.


Either soln sounds good.. Walter?

Regan.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 13 2004
next sibling parent reply "Matthew" <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> writes:
"Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
news:opr9klqrto5a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:31:45 +1000, Matthew
 <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> wrote:

 "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
 news:opr9kj2ig85a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:05:32 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

 "Ant" <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> wrote in message
 news:pan.2004.06.14.02.07.52.929078 yahoo.ca...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:

 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser




 printer,

 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character






 tab

 stops

 wired in <g>.


 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.
 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


 I use microEmacs. Tabs are fixed at 8 <g>.

 But seriously, if you use non-8 character tabs, the code won't print
 without
 using a special print program (when I want to print code, I don't


 want to

 look up the printer driver and try to figure out what arcane way to


 reset

 the tab stops, print, then set it back, I just want to print it), it
 won't
 look right in the source level debugger, it won't work as <pre></pre>


 in

 html pages, it won't 'type' to the screen on command prompt, etc. I


 don't

 want to run it through a perl script just so I can look at it. Non-8


 tabs

 always going to be out of step with the way everything works. The code
 will
 always format like **** when emailed to someone who can't print it
 without
 special settings, etc. It might be fine for closely held source, but


 for

 widely distributed source, tabs need to kowtow to the default on
 practically
 every piece of hardware and software that displays ascii text.

 I know lots of code editors that have soft tab settings. But as soon


 as

 you
 leave that environment, every other program or hardware that displays
 text
 will go awry with the result.

 Distributed source code should be context-free, i.e. it shouldn't


 need to

 come with an external set of instructions saying what format it is in.
 And
 nobody ever bothers giving such instructions, so the inevitable


 result is

 the code looks like **** when brought up in an editor.


 I don't think I understand the problem here.. I use MSVC, I set my tabs
 to
 4 spaces, meaning that when I press TAB it inserts the \t char into my
 source file and displays it as 4 spaces.

 So if I open my source in notepad it reads \t and displays it as 8
 spaces.

 It does not look like **** it looks fine, it simply has more horizontal
 space.

  From what you're saying if I print it in MSVC it will look like it
 does in
 notepad? or are you saying something else?

 If I need something in the code to line up under all situations i.e.
 comments on table columns etc, I will use spaces. I know for a fact
 that a
 space will take up 1 characters worth of space all the time, everywhere.

 What I *never* do is use both spaces AND tabs on one line, as this will
 never look right except under the same conditions as I wrote it.

 This is assuming they don't display it using non fixed-width fonts, in
 which case it doesn't matter what you do it won't line up, ever.


 Walter uses an indentation scheme that I'm familiar with via (g)vim.
 Basically,
 if the indent is odd (i.e. 1st, 3rd, 5th), then the editor inserts 4
 spaces. For
 even indents (2nd, 4th, etc.) then it inserts a single hard tab.


 So you're saying it mixes spaces and tabs on a single line? i.e.

      I pressed tab once
 \tI pressed tab twice
 \t    I pressed tab 3 times
 \t\tI pressed tab 4 times
 \t\t    I pressed tab 5 times

 yes?


If, translating your invisible spaces for ., you mean

....I pressed tab once
\tI pressed tab twice
\t....I pressed tab 3 times
\t\tI pressed tab 4 times
\t\t....I pressed tab 5 times

then yes


 If so, yuck! no wonder there is a problem! What crack addled chimpanzee
 decided that was a good idea??!


LOL!!!

That's a fantastic one. I must remember that. <G>

I've been meaning to put up a web page with "SE Abuses" for ages. I think you've
inspired me to put it on again. Or maybe we can just pick the juciest for an
Appendix in the D book? :)


 Since such
 editors use tabstop=8, it all looks dandy. Also, any device which does
 not
 redefine the tabstop from 8 will also display correctly. That's the
 source of
 Walter's talking about printers, etc.


 So you cannot tell a printer to use a different tabstop?


I imagine you can, but that's not the point. In this regard, Walter has a good
point. It's just his remedy that I don't like


 The problem is that the choice of 8 spaces per tabstop is one of those
 horrible
 decisions we're perpetually stuck with.


 Hindsight is 20-20.


:)


 Many editors have provided the ability to
 redefine the tabstop from 8 to a smaller value. This is most often 4,
 but I've
 seen 3, 2, 1 and even 5! Anyway, whatever the size, these programs are
 all,
 strictly, wrong. So Walter is quite correct that he's correct. <g>


 These programs are only strictly wrong if they are supposed to be WYSIWYG
 editors. If not, then there is nothing wrong with displaying a tab as 4
 spaces, and saving it in the file as a single tab.

 I prefer WYTIWYG (what you type is what you get) and I'll display it
 however you tell me to editors.


 However, most of us use such "wrong" editors, and so when one opens up a
 4(space)/8(tab) document with, say, 4 spaces, the indentation is shot to
 hell,
 and the code looks RS.


 Indeed.


 Since vim allows you to elect to use all spaces, rather than mixed
 space+tab, and
 makes backspace still act as if you've deleted a tab (rather than
 needing to do
 three more backspaces, like you do in some other dumb ass editors), I
 cannot
 believe emacs does not have the same facility. Therefore, it would cost
 Walter
 nothing to change to all spaces, and would mean that anyone - either
 D-philes
 like us, or "not so sure"s - looking at the code would see all the high
 quality
 splendour that is big-W's codified splendour.


 LOL. flattery will get you no-where methinks.


And sarcasm will get me the door! But sarcasm flows in the veins of Englishmen.
I
constantly forget to put in the requisite ";)" and it gets me in all kind of
trouble. (I recently offended just about every giant of the C++ with my, ahem,
ahem, "wit". That was not a pleasant exercise in genuflectory recanting.
Thankfully most of the D ng grok that I talk crap most of the time and ignore
it.
You're all more like my wife than you'd imagine ...)

Anyway, Walter knows that I think his code looks like it's as rough as a
badger's
arse, but that I also acknowledge that he has the upperhand in the argument,
given the fact that the stuff he does with it damned impressive. I reckon I'm
pretty typical as a developer in thinking everyone else's style is intolerably
ugly. Several times in the past I've been instrumental in writing coding
standards for clients - I have my mature concessional head on at such times <g>
-
and it's always the source of huge controversy. It's kind of amusing that
there's
always more attention, and _much_ more heat, on the coding standards than on the
source control standards, or release procedures. Fools are we all. :)


 Failing that, he could attain the same spell-binding of his readers by
 just
 including an untabification step in the release of Phobos. Again,
 virtually no
 effort, and a manifest gain.


 Either soln sounds good.. Walter?

 Regan.

 -- 
 Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 13 2004
next sibling parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Matthew" <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> wrote in message
news:cajh25$2p8d$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I reckon I'm
 pretty typical as a developer in thinking everyone else's style is


intolerably

 ugly.


Yup. That's the norm.


 Several times in the past I've been instrumental in writing coding
 standards for clients - I have my mature concessional head on at such


times <g> -

 and it's always the source of huge controversy. It's kind of amusing that


there's

 always more attention, and _much_ more heat, on the coding standards than


on the

 source control standards, or release procedures. Fools are we all. :)


I have engaged in this discussion primarilly tongue-in-cheek, in case nobody
noticed <g>.
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:36:45 +1000, Matthew 
<admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> wrote:

 Walter uses an indentation scheme that I'm familiar with via (g)vim.
 Basically,
 if the indent is odd (i.e. 1st, 3rd, 5th), then the editor inserts 4
 spaces. For
 even indents (2nd, 4th, etc.) then it inserts a single hard tab.


 So you're saying it mixes spaces and tabs on a single line? i.e.

      I pressed tab once
 \tI pressed tab twice
 \t    I pressed tab 3 times
 \t\tI pressed tab 4 times
 \t\t    I pressed tab 5 times

 yes?


 If, translating your invisible spaces for ., you mean

 ....I pressed tab once
 \tI pressed tab twice
 \t....I pressed tab 3 times
 \t\tI pressed tab 4 times
 \t\t....I pressed tab 5 times

 then yes


Yep, that is what I mean't.


 If so, yuck! no wonder there is a problem! What crack addled chimpanzee
 decided that was a good idea??!


 LOL!!!

 That's a fantastic one. I must remember that. <G>


It's one of my favourites.. I have some others, but they're not really for 
public consumption.


 I've been meaning to put up a web page with "SE Abuses" for ages. I 
 think you've
 inspired me to put it on again. Or maybe we can just pick the juciest 
 for an
 Appendix in the D book? :)


"SE Abuses" == ?

Regan

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
news:opr9klqrto5a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 If so, yuck! no wonder there is a problem! What crack addled chimpanzee
 decided that was a good idea??!


[Raising hand]

-- crack addled chimpanzee

P.S. Adding a tab-to-space converter for release raises the spectre of
having same-only-different versions of the source, something that isn't
worth it.

P.P.S. "So you cannot tell a printer to use a different tabstop?" Sure I
can. If I can find where I put the documention on it. And for my source
debugger, and Explorer, and the command prompt, and the linux printer
driver, and on and on, and for everyone else who wants to look at the code
as well. No thanks. Switching tab stops is like using a Dvorak keyboard.
Sure, qwerty sucks, but it sucks worse to be unable to type on any keyboard
but your own - and like your friend will let you install a Dvorak driver on
his laptop so you can check your email <g>.
Jun 13 2004
next sibling parent reply "Matthew" <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:cajhs4$2qca$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
 news:opr9klqrto5a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 If so, yuck! no wonder there is a problem! What crack addled chimpanzee
 decided that was a good idea??!


 [Raising hand]

 -- crack addled chimpanzee

 P.S. Adding a tab-to-space converter for release raises the spectre of
 having same-only-different versions of the source, something that isn't
 worth it.

 P.P.S. "So you cannot tell a printer to use a different tabstop?" Sure I
 can. If I can find where I put the documention on it. And for my source
 debugger, and Explorer, and the command prompt, and the linux printer
 driver, and on and on, and for everyone else who wants to look at the code
 as well. No thanks. Switching tab stops is like using a Dvorak keyboard.
 Sure, qwerty sucks, but it sucks worse to be unable to type on any keyboard
 but your own - and like your friend will let you install a Dvorak driver on
 his laptop so you can check your email <g>.


Isn't that exactly the point? Qwerty sucks. You think that all-spaces sucks. But
it's the only way to get unambiguous and maximal compatiblity.

Anyway, I'm wiling away too much time on an issue I don't actually care about.
(Fancy that!?). So I'll shut up. As the signature says ...


-- 
Matthew Wilson

Author: "Imperfect C++", Addison-Wesley, 2004
    (http://www.imperfectcplusplus.com)
Contributing editor, C/C++ Users Journal
    (http://www.synesis.com.au/articles.html#columns)
STLSoft moderator
    (http://www.stlsoft.org)

" I fold like a cheap hooker who got hit in the stomach by a fat guy with sores
on his face" -- Joey

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jun 13 2004
parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Tabs in source code is evil (IMNSHO).

Lars Ivar Igesund
Jun 14 2004
next sibling parent reply stonecobra <scott stonecobra.com> writes:
Caring about this issue is evil, IMHO.  Whoever wrote the code wrote the 
code, you are welcome to write code the way you do.  Code talks...

My, what a lovely bikeshed you have :)

Can we worry about D here, instead of coding standards?  Even if Walter 
were to untabify, he would untabify at 8 spaces per tab, which all of 
you would dislike.  Why not just live with the code that was written for 
you?

Scott

Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 Tabs in source code is evil (IMNSHO).
 
 Lars Ivar Igesund
Jun 14 2004
next sibling parent reply "Matthew" <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> writes:
"stonecobra" <scott stonecobra.com> wrote in message
news:cakh8a$1b5u$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Caring about this issue is evil, IMHO.  Whoever wrote the code wrote the
 code, you are welcome to write code the way you do.  Code talks...


... and?


 My, what a lovely bikeshed you have :)


Over my head.


 Can we worry about D here, instead of coding standards?


Not caring about coding standards at all. Caring about how D looks, both to
people that need to use it on a day to day basis but already like it, and to
people who may have reasons to look for things to criticise in it.


  Even if Walter
 were to untabify, he would untabify at 8 spaces per tab, which all of
 you would dislike.


You've clearly not understood the issue. If he untabified at 8sp per tab, we
would be very happy indeed.


 Why not just live with the code that was written for
 you?


We will, whether it looks nice and is readily comprehended or not. I raised the
issue to ease the task, in a small way, for many people. Cumulatively there will
be a lot of time spent arsing around trying to get the D sources into a form
that
is readable. Almost all of that time will be better spent writing D libraries,
or
D programs.

Or do you not think readibility is a factor in understanding?
Jun 14 2004
parent reply stonecobra <scott stonecobra.com> writes:
Matthew wrote:


 "stonecobra" <scott stonecobra.com> wrote in message
 news:cakh8a$1b5u$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 

Caring about this issue is evil, IMHO.  Whoever wrote the code wrote the
code, you are welcome to write code the way you do.  Code talks...


 
 
 ... and?


bull%$&* (all posts on this subject) walks.


 
 

My, what a lovely bikeshed you have :)


 
 
 Over my head.


http://www.unixguide.net/freebsd/faq/16.19.shtml


 
 

Can we worry about D here, instead of coding standards?


 
 
 Not caring about coding standards at all. Caring about how D looks, both to
 people that need to use it on a day to day basis but already like it, and to
 people who may have reasons to look for things to criticise in it.


How is this not a coding standard?


 
 

 Even if Walter
were to untabify, he would untabify at 8 spaces per tab, which all of
you would dislike.


 
 
 You've clearly not understood the issue. If he untabified at 8sp per tab, we
 would be very happy indeed.


I do understand the issue, but the people with 4 spaces/tab editors that 
use tabs to code with will be unhappy because the code is indented too much.


 
 

Why not just live with the code that was written for
you?


 
 
 We will, whether it looks nice and is readily comprehended or not. I raised the
 issue to ease the task, in a small way, for many people. Cumulatively there
will
 be a lot of time spent arsing around trying to get the D sources into a form
that
 is readable. Almost all of that time will be better spent writing D libraries,
or
 D programs.
 
 Or do you not think readibility is a factor in understanding?


I do think readability is a factor in understanding, which is why I 
prefer the VisualBasic way, where the editor re-writes every line of 
code to comply to a readability standard, whether you like it or not. 
But I am not going to tell people how to code to some common readability 
standard, especially when they are clearly against it and unlikely to 
change.  Hence the bikeshed comment.

I apologize everyone, this will be my last post on the subject of tabs 
and spaces.

Scott Sanders
Jun 14 2004
next sibling parent Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <cakqm0$1pmr$1 digitaldaemon.com>, stonecobra says...

http://www.unixguide.net/freebsd/faq/16.19.shtml


You're right, but this is the 3rd or 4th time this subject comes up
and only people with the wrong idea speak up. This time I thought
I could strait things up ;)

however Matthew and Walter are right. on shared projects a minimum set of
rules is beneficial.

for example:
Linux contributions should use 8 spaces tabs (and 25x80) and they explain why:
With 8 spaces tabs you will notice when or code is getting too complex.

Ant
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"stonecobra" <scott stonecobra.com> wrote in message
news:cakqm0$1pmr$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 http://www.unixguide.net/freebsd/faq/16.19.shtml


Thanks for the spot on target reference. I read Parkinson's books as a kid,
but I'd forgotten that one.
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:25:12 -0700, stonecobra <scott stonecobra.com> 
wrote:

 Even if Walter
 were to untabify, he would untabify at 8 spaces per tab, which all of
 you would dislike.



 You've clearly not understood the issue. If he untabified at 8sp per 
 tab, we
 would be very happy indeed.


 I do understand the issue, but the people with 4 spaces/tab editors that 
 use tabs to code with will be unhappy because the code is indented too 
 much.


You do, this is exactly my point also.


 Why not just live with the code that was written for
 you?



 We will, whether it looks nice and is readily comprehended or not. I 
 raised the
 issue to ease the task, in a small way, for many people. Cumulatively 
 there will
 be a lot of time spent arsing around trying to get the D sources into a 
 form that
 is readable. Almost all of that time will be better spent writing D 
 libraries, or
 D programs.

 Or do you not think readibility is a factor in understanding?


 I do think readability is a factor in understanding, which is why I 
 prefer the VisualBasic way, where the editor re-writes every line of 
 code to comply to a readability standard, whether you like it or not.


Sorry, this is evil, evil, and a 3rd time evil.

The same was done in Frontpage the html editor, the problem with it was, 
that it got re-written to use MS only methods which do not work in other 
web servers.

And it removed all my cgi replaceable tokens.

So it was basically useless.

So I use TextPad.


 But I am not going to tell people how to code to some common readability 
 standard, especially when they are clearly against it and unlikely to 
 change.  Hence the bikeshed comment.

 I apologize everyone, this will be my last post on the subject of tabs 
 and spaces.


Don't appologise, your opinion is valid.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling parent "Matthew" <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> writes:
 Even if Walter
were to untabify, he would untabify at 8 spaces per tab, which all of
you would dislike.



 You've clearly not understood the issue. If he untabified at 8sp per tab, we
 would be very happy indeed.


 I do understand the issue, but the people with 4 spaces/tab editors that
 use tabs to code with will be unhappy because the code is indented too much.


Wrong. Go back to the earlier post describing the indentation scheme, and work
it
out again.


Why not just live with the code that was written for
you?



 We will, whether it looks nice and is readily comprehended or not. I raised




the

 issue to ease the task, in a small way, for many people. Cumulatively there




will

 be a lot of time spent arsing around trying to get the D sources into a form




that

 is readable. Almost all of that time will be better spent writing D




libraries, or

 D programs.

 Or do you not think readibility is a factor in understanding?


 I do think readability is a factor in understanding, which is why I
 prefer the VisualBasic way, where the editor re-writes every line of
 code to comply to a readability standard, whether you like it or not.
 But I am not going to tell people how to code to some common readability
 standard, especially when they are clearly against it and unlikely to
 change.  Hence the bikeshed comment.

 I apologize everyone, this will be my last post on the subject of tabs
 and spaces.


I shall try and emulate your reticence. ;)
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:44:14 -0700, stonecobra <scott stonecobra.com> 
wrote:

 Caring about this issue is evil, IMHO.  Whoever wrote the code wrote the 
 code, you are welcome to write code the way you do.  Code talks...

 My, what a lovely bikeshed you have :)

 Can we worry about D here, instead of coding standards?  Even if Walter 
 were to untabify, he would untabify at 8 spaces per tab, which all of 
 you would dislike.


Un-tabbifying is not the soln, using \t instead of 4 spaces is. If you 
have \t then your editor can decide how to display it. If you have \t you 
can easily convert every odd one into 4 spaces to print it, etc..


 Why not just live with the code that was written for you?


Sure, but, it'd be nice to be able to read it as well.

Regan

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:05:32 +0100, Lars Ivar Igesund 
<larsivar igesund.net> wrote:

 Tabs in source code is evil (IMNSHO).


IMHO they're better than spaces.

Regan

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:52:23 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com> 
wrote:

 "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
 news:opr9klqrto5a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 If so, yuck! no wonder there is a problem! What crack addled chimpanzee
 decided that was a good idea??!


 [Raising hand]

 -- crack addled chimpanzee


:)


 P.S. Adding a tab-to-space converter for release raises the spectre of
 having same-only-different versions of the source, something that isn't
 worth it.


I agree.


 P.P.S. "So you cannot tell a printer to use a different tabstop?" Sure I
 can. If I can find where I put the documention on it. And for my source
 debugger, and Explorer, and the command prompt, and the linux printer
 driver, and on and on, and for everyone else who wants to look at the 
 code
 as well. No thanks. Switching tab stops is like using a Dvorak keyboard.
 Sure, qwerty sucks, but it sucks worse to be unable to type on any 
 keyboard
 but your own - and like your friend will let you install a Dvorak driver 
 on
 his laptop so you can check your email <g>.


Sad but true.

So basically you should give up your 'dvorak' text editor and use a broken 
one like the rest of us?

IMO not mixing tabs and spaces, and using an editor that displays tabs as 
x spaces gives you the most flexibility, and everyone else the most 
flexibility, to be honest how often do you print source code?

Representing a tab as 4 spaces in one instance and as a \t in the other 
just seems wrong to me. It's a gut reaction.

Regan.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
news:opr9kj2ig85a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 What I *never* do is use both spaces AND tabs on one line, as this will
 never look right except under the same conditions as I wrote it.


Despite most programmers mixing the two (including me), your technique only
works for leading tabs. Using tabs to line up, say, right hand comments (a
common style) fails even if you eshew spaces.
Jun 13 2004
parent reply Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:34:15 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com> 
wrote:

 "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
 news:opr9kj2ig85a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 What I *never* do is use both spaces AND tabs on one line, as this will
 never look right except under the same conditions as I wrote it.


 Despite most programmers mixing the two (including me), your technique 
 only
 works for leading tabs. Using tabs to line up, say, right hand comments 
 (a
 common style) fails even if you eshew spaces.


You've got me backwards.. I specifically said I use spaces to line things 
up.

Regan.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
news:opr9lt690b5a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:34:15 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

 "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> wrote in message
 news:opr9kj2ig85a2sq9 digitalmars.com...

 What I *never* do is use both spaces AND tabs on one line, as this will
 never look right except under the same conditions as I wrote it.


 Despite most programmers mixing the two (including me), your technique
 only
 works for leading tabs. Using tabs to line up, say, right hand comments
 (a
 common style) fails even if you eshew spaces.


 You've got me backwards.. I specifically said I use spaces to line things
 up.


Ok, my mistake.
Jun 15 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Matthew" <admin stlsoft.dot.dot.dot.dot.org> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:cajbos$2ggr$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Ant" <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> wrote in message
 news:pan.2004.06.14.02.07.52.929078 yahoo.ca...

 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:

 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser




 printer,

 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab




 stops

 wired in <g>.


 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.
 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


 I use microEmacs. Tabs are fixed at 8 <g>.

 But seriously, if you use non-8 character tabs, the code won't print without
 using a special print program (when I want to print code, I don't want to
 look up the printer driver and try to figure out what arcane way to reset
 the tab stops, print, then set it back, I just want to print it), it won't
 look right in the source level debugger, it won't work as <pre></pre> in
 html pages, it won't 'type' to the screen on command prompt, etc. I don't
 want to run it through a perl script just so I can look at it. Non-8 tabs
 always going to be out of step with the way everything works. The code will
 always format like **** when emailed to someone who can't print it without
 special settings, etc. It might be fine for closely held source, but for
 widely distributed source, tabs need to kowtow to the default on practically
 every piece of hardware and software that displays ascii text.

 I know lots of code editors that have soft tab settings. But as soon as you
 leave that environment, every other program or hardware that displays text
 will go awry with the result.

 Distributed source code should be context-free, i.e. it shouldn't need to
 come with an external set of instructions saying what format it is in. And
 nobody ever bothers giving such instructions, so the inevitable result is
 the code looks like **** when brought up in an editor.


Aren't you just backing up my argument that you untabify your source before
bundling. As it stands, it's not context-free, since it assumes tabstops are 8.

There's no good saying that others are wrong, since there's a proliferation of
editors that use soft tabs, set to the "scientifically optimal" 4. If you want
your code to appear correctly irrespective of context, it needs to be
untabified.

Otherwise, you're going to look like Betamax, and everyone else'll be seeing
your
code through the eyes of VHS.

Of course, I could just remember to untabify (with -t8) the DMD source every
time
I download. But I already think it's amazing quality, it's others you should be
concerned with. =P
Jun 13 2004
parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Matthew wrote:

<snip>

 Aren't you just backing up my argument that you untabify your source 
 before bundling. As it stands, it's not context-free, since it 
 assumes tabstops are 8.
 
 There's no good saying that others are wrong, since there's a 
 proliferation of editors that use soft tabs, set to the 
 "scientifically optimal" 4. If you want your code to appear correctly 
 irrespective of context, it needs to be untabified.


<snip>

Yes, most coding environments do seem to be set to a tab size of 4.

Indeed, I would somehow doubt there to be any universal standard here. 
If anything, then I guess someone decided 8 would be a good number for 
his/her/its purposes, and various people followed suit.  OTOH, 
programmers felt that 8 was too wide, and the 4-space tab caught on in 
that community.  I don't know about the old Fortraners, when they had to 
indent every statement by 8 chars anyway....

There are three options being discussed here...

1. Tabs only
Pros:
- disk space efficient
- easy and painless to type
- when viewed in an editor with customisable tab sizes, appears at the 
size the user finds most comfortable
Cons:
- when viewed at bigger tab size, long, deeply indented lines are more 
likely to fall off the screen

2. Spaces only
Pros:
- consistent display
- some editors can auto-convert tabs to spaces, making this form easy to 
produce
- layout preserved in situations where tab chars may not be 
transmitted/rendered properly
Cons:
- take up more disk space
- tedious to type in primitive editors (e.g. Notepad)
- harder to maintain by others who prefer tabs, if their tab width is 
different (e.g. two-space indentation seems to tend to come out of Emacs 
users....)

3. Tabs with space half-indentation
Pros:
- finer, more 'comfortable' indentation than some tab width hard-coded 
in certain contexts
- less tedious than all-space indenting in Notepad
- slightly more compact on disk than all-space indenting
Cons:
- looks a mess/hard to follow in environments having different tab width

OK, so option 2 has the most cons, but the first is fairly minor and the 
rest are somewhat dependent on other factors.  And I imagine most 
programmers don't edit their code in Notepad, which isn't very suited to 
  the task anyway.  The con of 1 isn't all that serious when you 
consider that people aren't all going to be viewing at the same window 
width anyway.  OTOH, when I try to maintain code written in technique 3, 
I invariably find myself 'tidying' the indentation so that it makes 
sense in my comfort settings.

NTS, I prefer 1, and tend to release code with the tabs still in place. 
  But if I'm putting code on a web page, then I change them to spaces. 
When posting code to a newsgroup I don't seem to be consistent, and I'm 
not sure how different newsreaders handle tab chars....

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the 
unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment.  Please keep 
replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Jun 14 2004
parent reply Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:17:26 +0100, Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> 
wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 <snip>

 Aren't you just backing up my argument that you untabify your source 
 before bundling. As it stands, it's not context-free, since it assumes 
 tabstops are 8.

 There's no good saying that others are wrong, since there's a 
 proliferation of editors that use soft tabs, set to the "scientifically 
 optimal" 4. If you want your code to appear correctly irrespective of 
 context, it needs to be untabified.


 <snip>

 Yes, most coding environments do seem to be set to a tab size of 4.

 Indeed, I would somehow doubt there to be any universal standard here. 
 If anything, then I guess someone decided 8 would be a good number for 
 his/her/its purposes, and various people followed suit.  OTOH, 
 programmers felt that 8 was too wide, and the 4-space tab caught on in 
 that community.  I don't know about the old Fortraners, when they had to 
 indent every statement by 8 chars anyway....

 There are three options being discussed here...

 1. Tabs only
 Pros:
 - disk space efficient
 - easy and painless to type
 - when viewed in an editor with customisable tab sizes, appears at the 
 size the user finds most comfortable
 Cons:
 - when viewed at bigger tab size, long, deeply indented lines are more 
 likely to fall off the screen

 2. Spaces only
 Pros:
 - consistent display
 - some editors can auto-convert tabs to spaces, making this form easy to 
 produce


or anyone can, trivially, with a small program.


 - layout preserved in situations where tab chars may not be 
 transmitted/rendered properly
 Cons:
 - take up more disk space
 - tedious to type in primitive editors (e.g. Notepad)
 - harder to maintain by others who prefer tabs, if their tab width is 
 different (e.g. two-space indentation seems to tend to come out of Emacs 
 users....)

 3. Tabs with space half-indentation
 Pros:
 - finer, more 'comfortable' indentation than some tab width hard-coded 
 in certain contexts


do you mean "in an editor with hard coded tabstops of 8 spaces it looks 
nicer than tabs does"?


 - less tedious than all-space indenting in Notepad


this is also a con, if you re-word it as..
  - slightly more tedious than all-tab indenting in notepad.


 - slightly more compact on disk than all-space indenting


this is also a con, if you re-word it as..
  - slightly less compact on disk than all-tab indenting.


 Cons:
 - looks a mess/hard to follow in environments having different tab width



These lists are excellent.

It's important to nore that if "tabs only" is used it does not mean you 
cannot use spaces where you want/need to. I do this in msdev to align 
specific things like comments on columns to a static array of data etc. 
They stay aligned regardless of the tabstop as I do not mix spaces and 
tabs in doing it.


 OK, so option 2 has the most cons, but the first is fairly minor and the 
 rest are somewhat dependent on other factors.  And I imagine most 
 programmers don't edit their code in Notepad, which isn't very suited to 
   the task anyway.  The con of 1 isn't all that serious when you 
 consider that people aren't all going to be viewing at the same window 
 width anyway.  OTOH, when I try to maintain code written in technique 3, 
 I invariably find myself 'tidying' the indentation so that it makes 
 sense in my comfort settings.

 NTS, I prefer 1, and tend to release code with the tabs still in place.


This is my preference also.


   But if I'm putting code on a web page, then I change them to spaces. 
 When posting code to a newsgroup I don't seem to be consistent, and I'm 
 not sure how different newsreaders handle tab chars...


Regan.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Regan Heath wrote:

<snip>

 2. Spaces only
 Pros:
 - consistent display
 - some editors can auto-convert tabs to spaces, making this form easy 
 to produce


 
 or anyone can, trivially, with a small program.


Well, there are plenty of programs out there that aren't small.  D is 
supposed to be suited to million-line projects according to the docs.


 - layout preserved in situations where tab chars may not be 
 transmitted/rendered properly
 Cons:
 - take up more disk space
 - tedious to type in primitive editors (e.g. Notepad)
 - harder to maintain by others who prefer tabs, if their tab width is 
 different (e.g. two-space indentation seems to tend to come out of 
 Emacs users....)

 3. Tabs with space half-indentation
 Pros:
 - finer, more 'comfortable' indentation than some tab width hard-coded 
 in certain contexts


 
 do you mean "in an editor with hard coded tabstops of 8 spaces it looks 
 nicer than tabs does"?


Yes.  But also situations where code is merely displayed and/or 
transmitted, rather than edited, under the same constraint.


 - less tedious than all-space indenting in Notepad


 
 this is also a con, if you re-word it as..
  - slightly more tedious than all-tab indenting in notepad.
 

 - slightly more compact on disk than all-space indenting


 
 this is also a con, if you re-word it as..
  - slightly less compact on disk than all-tab indenting.


Yes, I was kind of thinking that myself.  I guess that, on average, the 
number of spaces would outweigh the halving of the number of tab 
characters....

<snip>

 It's important to nore that if "tabs only" is used it does not mean you 
 cannot use spaces where you want/need to. I do this in msdev to align 
 specific things like comments on columns to a static array of data etc. 
 They stay aligned regardless of the tabstop as I do not mix spaces and 
 tabs in doing it.


<snip>

Yes, there's giving code a tabular layout.  And boxed comments.  Not to 
mention my tendency to indent subsequent lines of a statement by 2 spaces.

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the 
unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment.  Please keep 
replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Jun 15 2004
parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:54:28 +0100, Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> 
wrote:

 Regan Heath wrote:

 <snip>

 2. Spaces only
 Pros:
 - consistent display
 - some editors can auto-convert tabs to spaces, making this form easy 
 to produce


 or anyone can, trivially, with a small program.


 Well, there are plenty of programs out there that aren't small.  D is 
 supposed to be suited to million-line projects according to the docs.


I think you have missunderstood. What I mean't here was that even if your 
editor couldn't convert it (tabs to spaces), you could write an app to do 
it for you. Thus you could produce an all spaces form easily.


 - layout preserved in situations where tab chars may not be 
 transmitted/rendered properly
 Cons:
 - take up more disk space
 - tedious to type in primitive editors (e.g. Notepad)
 - harder to maintain by others who prefer tabs, if their tab width is 
 different (e.g. two-space indentation seems to tend to come out of 
 Emacs users....)

 3. Tabs with space half-indentation
 Pros:
 - finer, more 'comfortable' indentation than some tab width hard-coded 
 in certain contexts


 do you mean "in an editor with hard coded tabstops of 8 spaces it looks 
 nicer than tabs does"?


 Yes.  But also situations where code is merely displayed and/or 
 transmitted, rather than edited, under the same constraint.


True. This is Walters main argument for this tab/space style I believe.


 - less tedious than all-space indenting in Notepad


 this is also a con, if you re-word it as..
  - slightly more tedious than all-tab indenting in notepad.


 - slightly more compact on disk than all-space indenting


 this is also a con, if you re-word it as..
  - slightly less compact on disk than all-tab indenting.


 Yes, I was kind of thinking that myself.  I guess that, on average, the 
 number of spaces would outweigh the halving of the number of tab 
 characters....

 <snip>

 It's important to nore that if "tabs only" is used it does not mean you 
 cannot use spaces where you want/need to. I do this in msdev to align 
 specific things like comments on columns to a static array of data etc. 
 They stay aligned regardless of the tabstop as I do not mix spaces and 
 tabs in doing it.


 <snip>

 Yes, there's giving code a tabular layout.  And boxed comments.  Not to 
 mention my tendency to indent subsequent lines of a statement by 2 
 spaces.


This would be my preffered coding style also.

Regan.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 15 2004
prev sibling parent reply Derek <derek psyc.ward> writes:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:07:52 -0400, Ant wrote:


 On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:47:21 -0700, Walter wrote:
 

 
 "Ant" <Ant_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:caihjb$1714$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 In article <caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every




 TTY

I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops




 at

8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.
Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 
 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser printer,
 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab stops
 wired in <g>.


 
 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)
 
 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.


Hmmm...actually I don't. I never use them anymore. Haven't for many, many
years now. The SPACE character is a fixed width but the TAB is variable,
depending on many factors. The default is nearly always 8 spaces, but as
that can be changed by nearly every (modern) editor and printing program, I
gave up trying to keep code lined up using tabs.



 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


The editors I use (EmEditor and Code-genie) automatically insert the right
number of spaces when I press the TAB key. 

Oh well, its good to have a variety of opinions. Keeps the mind active.

-- 
Derek
Melbourne, Australia
Jun 14 2004
parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:43:41 +1000, Derek <derek psyc.ward> wrote:

 "Ant" <Ant_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:caihjb$1714$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 In article <caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the 


 DOS

command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, 


 every


 TTY

I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab 


 stops


 at

8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be 


 abandoned.

Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


 you are stuck in the past, sorry.


 Sorry, I'm using the latest Microsoft Explorer, the latest HP laser 
 printer,
 the latest Windows XP, and Red Hat Linux 9. All have 8 character tab 
 stops
 wired in <g>.


 They are also living in the past ;)
 printer? printer? who prints things anymore? that's 20th century ;)

 But, that list doesn't contain a code editor.
 All posters on this thread use tabs.


 Hmmm...actually I don't. I never use them anymore. Haven't for many, many
 years now. The SPACE character is a fixed width but the TAB is variable,
 depending on many factors. The default is nearly always 8 spaces, but as
 that can be changed by nearly every (modern) editor and printing 
 program, I
 gave up trying to keep code lined up using tabs.


I see what you're saying.. what were you trying to line up?

I use tabs, and my code lines up all the time regardless of the tabstop 
used. The reason it lines up is that I never mix tabs and spaces. I can 
send someone an example if they want, it might help show what I mean.

In the somewhat rare event that I need to line something up with something 
else specifically i.e. comments on static table data,  I use spaces so 
that it will always line up no matter what tabstop is used.


 inclusive the original poster that asked for spaces!
 all of them redefine the tab stops.


 The editors I use (EmEditor and Code-genie) automatically insert the 
 right
 number of spaces when I press the TAB key.

 Oh well, its good to have a variety of opinions. Keeps the mind active.


We're spoilt for choice.

Regan

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 14 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent "The Dr ... who?" <thedr who.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "The Dr ... who?" <thedr who.com> wrote in message
 news:cagnmh$1md2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a PITA


 when

 viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have


 been set

 to another tab setting.


 Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
 command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every TTY
 I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops at
 8.


Well, yeah, we know, but ...


 Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.


... they are out there, and they are legion, and your code looks crapola in
them.


 Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


as above


 Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't


 change to

 just spaces only?


 Habit <g>.


Sure. My habit is to use hard tabs, with tabstops set at four. But before I
release stuff I run scripts - http://synsoft.org/perl.html; the tabstop can be
set with -t<tabstop> - to untabify everything en masse. It's a 0.1% effort
thing.
Jun 13 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Vathix" <vathixSpamFix dprogramming.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "The Dr ... who?" <thedr who.com> wrote in message
 news:cagnmh$1md2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a




PITA

 when

 viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have


 been set

 to another tab setting.


 Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
 command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every


TTY

 I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops


at

 8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.
 Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


 Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't


 change to

 just spaces only?


 Habit <g>.


I like having my tab width set to 3 spaces. I can see more code on the
screen horizontally and still see the indentation well. I think that tabs
should be used for indentation and spaces used for alignment, so that it
looks fine to everyone's settings.
Jun 13 2004
parent Regan Heath <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:49:00 -0400, Vathix 
<vathixSpamFix dprogramming.com> wrote:

 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:caiaqb$ti1$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "The Dr ... who?" <thedr who.com> wrote in message
 news:cagnmh$1md2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a




 PITA

 when

 viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which 


 have
 been set

 to another tab setting.


 Printers, the linux command prompt, the windows command prompt, the DOS
 command prompt, the RT-11 command prompt, TOPS-10 command prompt, every


 TTY

 I've used from ASR-33 to VT-100, html browsers, etc., all have tab stops


 at

 8. Programs that default to anything other than 8 should be abandoned.
 Programs that allow tab stops to be customized should be flogged.


 Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't


 change to

 just spaces only?


 Habit <g>.


 I like having my tab width set to 3 spaces. I can see more code on the
 screen horizontally and still see the indentation well. I think that tabs
 should be used for indentation and spaces used for alignment, so that it
 looks fine to everyone's settings.


I agree. I use a tab width of 4 for the same reasons.

If you convert tabs to spaces then I cannot choose how to view your code, 
I am stuck viewing it how you want it.

If you want something to be aligned regardless of tab sizes, then use 
spaces.

If the code editor does not use a fixed width font, then all bets are off 
anyway where alignment is concerned.

Regan

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Jun 13 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <cagnmh$1md2$1 digitaldaemon.com>, The Dr ... who? says...

Walter

I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a PITA when
viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have been set
to another tab setting.

Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't change to
just spaces only?


I would say use tabs only.

If tabs and spaces are not mixed you'll have no problems.
there are some disadvantages on using spaces for indentation.
if tabs only are used you can set the indentation width to whatever you like.

just to let every body know that tabs are better then spaces for indentation
people migth have the wrong impression after your post.

if Walter decides phobos must have indentation with spaces we all loose
(but it's a small thing).

Ant
Jun 13 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent Andy Friesen <andy ikagames.com> writes:
The Dr ... who? wrote:

 I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a PITA when
 viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have been
set
 to another tab setting.
 
 Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't change to
 just spaces only?


It's things like these that keep me from ever using hard tabs for 
anything, particularly in Python where the actual meaning of the code 
will get slaughtered along with the pretty formatting if anything should 
go awry. :)

  -- andy
Jun 13 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Stephen Waits <steve waits.net> writes:
Oh no.. a holy war has ensued.

There's a braindead simple solution to this.  Here it is:

FOLLOW THESE RULES:
===================
1. USE TABS FOR INDENTATION
2. USE SPACES FOR ALIGNMENT


Follow those two rules and everyone will be happy when they view your 
code, regardless of their chosen tab display size (2, 3, 4, 8, ...).

I've trained my team to work like this.  It's painless, and every guy is 
happy, AND our code looks great.

--Steve
Jun 15 2004
parent Stephen Waits <steve waits.net> writes:
Stephen Waits wrote:


 FOLLOW THESE RULES:
 ===================
 1. USE TABS FOR INDENTATION
 2. USE SPACES FOR ALIGNMENT


Following up with an example (printf call intentionally contrived):

void func()
{
	int   x;         // x-value
	float y = 0.0f;  // y-value

	printf(
	       "x = %d, y = %f\n",
	       x, y
	      );
}

And here it is again, substitute tab characters with '^' and space 
characters with '_'.

void_func()
{
^int___x;_________//_x-value
^float_y_=_0.0f;__//_y-value

^printf(
^_______"x_=_%d,_y_=_%f\n",
^_______x,_y
^______);
}


Such a simple solution.  Easy to do, produces great looking code.

--Steve
Jun 15 2004
prev sibling parent Brad Anderson <brad sankaty.dot.com> writes:
After reading the posts in this thread, I've come to the only logical 
conclusion one can make.  You guys need better recreational pharmaceuticals.

BA


The Dr ... who? wrote:

 Walter
 
 I get your tab scheme - Vim's softtabs / smarttabs - but it's just a PITA when
 viewed with any other tools whose default tabs are not 8, or which have been
set
 to another tab setting.
 
 Is there a good reason why you (and anyone writing for Phobos) can't change to
 just spaces only?
Jun 18 2004