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digitalmars.D.announce - Tango heap is dangerous

reply Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

DO NOT USE IT.

It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common 
and hard to track circumstances.
Oct 14 2008
next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:

 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common and
 hard to track circumstances.


Wow.  You know, this is *so* convincing.  Yes, you *must* be Christopher Wright.
Oct 14 2008
parent reply Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:

 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common and
 hard to track circumstances.


 
 Wow.  You know, this is *so* convincing.  Yes, you *must* be Christopher
Wright.


I am, in fact. Do you want me to commit this message to my project on 
dsource?
Oct 14 2008
next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com>
 wrote:

 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common
 and
 hard to track circumstances.


 Wow.  You know, this is *so* convincing.  Yes, you *must* be Christopher
 Wright.


 I am, in fact. Do you want me to commit this message to my project on
 dsource?


It seems terribly out-of-character for you, and with no leadup to the
discussion, actual facts, or way of knowing that it actually _is_ you,
I think you can understand my doubt!
Oct 14 2008
prev sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Jarrett Billingsley
<jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com>
 wrote:

 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common
 and
 hard to track circumstances.


 Wow.  You know, this is *so* convincing.  Yes, you *must* be Christopher
 Wright.


 I am, in fact. Do you want me to commit this message to my project on
 dsource?


 It seems terribly out-of-character for you, and with no leadup to the
 discussion, actual facts, or way of knowing that it actually _is_ you,
 I think you can understand my doubt!


I apologize for my confusion.  This thread seemed out of the blue but
it wasn't, though its being on a different group with a different
title from the original thread did little to indicate that it was a
continuation.  Given the lack of context, I was under the impression
that you were implying that you wrote Tango's heap *allocator* and not
its heap *container*, which sounded a bit more severe than the actual
issue at hand.
Oct 14 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Jarrett Billingsley
<jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:

 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common and
 hard to track circumstances.


 Wow.  You know, this is *so* convincing.  Yes, you *must* be Christopher
Wright.


I mean, dhasenan.
Oct 14 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Denis Koroskin" <2korden gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:56:57 +0400, Christopher Wright  
<dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:


 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common  
 and hard to track circumstances.


*LOL*! Why not just fix the bug and announce it so that everyone who uses  
it would update thier Tango revision?
Besides, how long ago did you submit your code? I doubt that anyone is  
already using it in some serious project (there was no release since then,  
if I am not mistaken).
Oct 14 2008
next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Denis Koroskin <2korden gmail.com> wrote:

 On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:56:57 +0400, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com>
 wrote:


 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common
 and hard to track circumstances.


 *LOL*! Why not just fix the bug and announce it so that everyone who uses it
 would update thier Tango revision?
 Besides, how long ago did you submit your code? I doubt that anyone is
 already using it in some serious project (there was no release since then,
 if I am not mistaken).


You honestly fell for it?
Oct 14 2008
prev sibling parent Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Denis Koroskin wrote:

 On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:56:57 +0400, Christopher Wright 
 <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:
 

 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively 
 common and hard to track circumstances.


 
 *LOL*! Why not just fix the bug and announce it so that everyone who 
 uses it would update thier Tango revision?


The way I wrote it did not contain any such bug.


 Besides, how long ago did you submit your code? I doubt that anyone is 
 already using it in some serious project (there was no release since 
 then, if I am not mistaken).


I'm just angry about my inability to change anything in Tango. I've 
managed to get one bug fixed after providing a patch. But I've asked for 
a one word change and had it denied after arguing about it for a week 
and providing about half a dozen use cases. Denied with some irrelevant 
explanation ("You're asking for struct interfaces, really" -- except I 
provided five use cases that that wouldn't solve). I've submitted a 
couple other things with code attached, and they got ignored.

I'm hoping that this gets taken care of. I'm not sure it will. But at 
least if I make a bloody row about it, it has a chance.
Oct 14 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
Christopher Wright wrote:

 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.
 
 DO NOT USE IT.
 
 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common 
 and hard to track circumstances.


It's a bit off-topic, but tango.core.Array has heap operations as well, 
assuming you're willing to live with an array backing your heap.


Sean
Oct 14 2008
prev sibling parent reply "Tim M" <a b.com> writes:
I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete with  
web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find that  
http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and replaced  
with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the past. If all  
this was on a forum we would not have to worry about identity stealing.

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:56:57 +1300, Christopher Wright  
<dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:


 Hi! I wrote Tango's heap implementation.

 DO NOT USE IT.

 It contains a bug that will result in data loss under relatively common  
 and hard to track circumstances.
Oct 14 2008
next sibling parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Hello tim,


 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.
 



I hear you.  The dwt project is really a special case.  It moved back to 
the newsgroup because that is where most of the D community discussion resides, 
and dwt was considered an important asset to the language; furthermore the 
newsgroup had been created a couple years prior for specific dwt GUI
discussions. 
 Keeping it's existance outside the newsgroup would have pulled it away from 
the central hub of D language activity and compromised publicity.  Having 
both active would have doubled the managment and support for DWT.  But
otherwise, 
I agree that a forum system is much easier to moderate and manage.

There's been a few people who have argued, like you, that newsgroups are 
passe; yet there appears to be at least an equal number that believe the 
"outdated" news system are still superior to the forum systems we have today.

As for identity stealing being possible in a newsgroup, I suppose that doesn't 
necessarily have to be so.  I assume a PGP key of some sort would solve that 
problem.  Some here have resorted to that.  Other's don't bother or care 
to reveal there identity.

-JJR
Oct 14 2008
prev sibling parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to tim,


 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.
 


FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that includes 
just dropping using whatever the forums is about.

If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.

If tango had a NG, in all likely hood, I'd be using it right now (I don't 
for that and other reasons).
Oct 14 2008
next sibling parent reply Robert Kosek <robert.kosek thewickedflea.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that 
 includes just dropping using whatever the forums is about.
 
 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.


Pardon my curiosity, but why?  What do you have against forums?  I 
prefer forums to newsgroups because they're simpler to use, in my 
opinion, and if someone is a jerk they can actually be banned.  The 
thing I like is that I can run a full text search on the forum and get 
results faster than I can download all 14,000 headers to one of the 
groups here.

Be warned, if you attribute the reason to the attitudes of people on 
forums then I'll turn it back at you: I find the same thing at 
newsgroups and usenet. ;-)

Regards,
Robert
Oct 15 2008
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Robert,


 BCS wrote:
 

 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that
 includes just dropping using whatever the forums is about.
 
 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.
 


 Pardon my curiosity, but why?  What do you have against forums?  I
 prefer forums to newsgroups because they're simpler to use, in my
 opinion, and if someone is a jerk they can actually be banned.  The
 thing I like is that I can run a full text search on the forum and get
 results faster than I can download all 14,000 headers to one of the
 groups here.
 
 Be warned, if you attribute the reason to the attitudes of people on
 forums then I'll turn it back at you: I find the same thing at
 newsgroups and usenet. ;-)
 
 Regards,
 Robert


- offline access
- lower bandwidth concerns (after I download stuff I have it "forever")
- lower "visual overhead" (cleaner interface etc)
- threads vs. big long list
- no clicking refresh to see if anything new is posted
- more options on the interface/app

I'll grant that Google does a faster job of searching but can also throw 
in all kinds of other junk. My current NG app does just fine in searching 
and sorting.

re people's attitudes: that has nothing to do with it. And NNTP can do
authentication 
and IIRC Walter has more than once turned down requests to switch it on.
Oct 15 2008
prev sibling parent reply "Chris R. Miller" <lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to tim,

 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.


 
 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that 
 includes just dropping using whatever the forums is about.
 
 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.
 
 If tango had a NG, in all likely hood, I'd be using it right now (I 
 don't for that and other reasons).


What about mailing lists, such as Google Groups?  They allow you to 
treat it as a forum or as a mailing list.
Oct 15 2008
next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Chris R. Miller
<lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> wrote:

 BCS wrote:

 Reply to tim,

 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.


 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that includes
 just dropping using whatever the forums is about.

 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.

 If tango had a NG, in all likely hood, I'd be using it right now (I don't
 for that and other reasons).


 What about mailing lists, such as Google Groups?  They allow you to treat it
 as a forum or as a mailing list.


GG will not index news.digitalmars.com.  I guess there aren't enough D
users at Google to make them care.
Oct 15 2008
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 GG will not index news.digitalmars.com.


I'm glad they don't. We've had very little trouble with spam. Using 
"uncool" software like newsgroups means we fly under the radar. The 
people who want to be here have no trouble finding it, and the spammers 
overlook it.

Google does index the Digital Mars newsgroup archives, which does 
include 100% of the n.g. posts, but since it is a custom thing that I 
wrote no automated spammer tools recognize it for what it is.

I don't care to add registration for the n.g. because it drives away 
people. There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I 
just tire of the registration process, wait for the email, respond to 
the email, complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I 
haven't used elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin 
every time I wipe my cookies, etc. Bah.
Oct 15 2008
next sibling parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Walter,


 There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I
 just tire of the registration process, wait for the email, respond to
 the email, complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I
 haven't used elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin
 every time I wipe my cookies, etc. Bah.
 


I use Password Gorilla to keep track of my passwords and use uuidgen to make 
them. Using GUIDs is a bit hard to remember but I figure they will be even 
harder to crack!

http://www.fpx.de/fp/Software/Gorilla/
Oct 15 2008
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Walter,
 

 There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I
 just tire of the registration process, wait for the email, respond to
 the email, complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I
 haven't used elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin
 every time I wipe my cookies, etc. Bah.


 
 I use Password Gorilla to keep track of my passwords and use uuidgen to 
 make them. Using GUIDs is a bit hard to remember but I figure they will 
 be even harder to crack!
 
 http://www.fpx.de/fp/Software/Gorilla/


I don't use things like that because then all my passwords are 
compromised if I just lose that one password. If I use different 
nicks/passwords for every account, there is no vector from one to the 
next. Each can only be compromised independently.
Oct 15 2008
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Walter,


 BCS wrote:
 

 Reply to Walter,
 

 There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I
 just tire of the registration process, wait for the email, respond
 to
 the email, complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I
 haven't used elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin
 every time I wipe my cookies, etc. Bah.


 I use Password Gorilla to keep track of my passwords and use uuidgen
 to make them. Using GUIDs is a bit hard to remember but I figure they
 will be even harder to crack!
 
 http://www.fpx.de/fp/Software/Gorilla/
 


 I don't use things like that because then all my passwords are
 compromised if I just lose that one password. If I use different
 nicks/passwords for every account, there is no vector from one to the
 next. Each can only be compromised independently.
 


The only copy of the password archive is on my own system. If they can get 
to that, then they can get to my browsers's password cache so it no worse 
than that. It's better because I can move it easier when I rebuild my system.
Oct 15 2008
next sibling parent Sascha Katzner <sorry.no spam.invalid> writes:
BCS wrote:

 The only copy of the password archive is on my own system. If they can 
 get to that, then they can get to my browsers's password cache so it no 
 worse than that. It's better because I can move it easier when I rebuild 
 my system.


Do yourself a favor and make a backup! Trust me it is not funny to loose 
all of your passwords in one fell swoop because a stupid hard disk dies.

Funny note: If you loose your Hotmail password they offer to send you 
your password to your Hotmail account... You have to love those people 
working at M$. :(

LLAP,
Sascha
Oct 15 2008
prev sibling parent Chad J <gamerchad __spam.is.bad__gmail.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Walter,
 

 BCS wrote:


 Reply to Walter,


 There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I
 just tire of the registration process, wait for the email, respond
 to
 the email, complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I
 haven't used elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin
 every time I wipe my cookies, etc. Bah.


 I use Password Gorilla to keep track of my passwords and use uuidgen
 to make them. Using GUIDs is a bit hard to remember but I figure they
 will be even harder to crack!

 http://www.fpx.de/fp/Software/Gorilla/


 I don't use things like that because then all my passwords are
 compromised if I just lose that one password. If I use different
 nicks/passwords for every account, there is no vector from one to the
 next. Each can only be compromised independently.


 
 The only copy of the password archive is on my own system. If they can 
 get to that, then they can get to my browsers's password cache so it no 
 worse than that. It's better because I can move it easier when I rebuild 
 my system.
 
 


USB Flash drives are REALLY useful for this.
They are (1) seldom connected to the internet or any network and (2) 
easy to back up (just buy a few and occasionally copy the contents).

This way if someone compromises my computer, they will have to be 
waiting for me to access my passwords before they even have a chance at 
it.  And that's if they even recognize what I am doing.  I suppose 
keyloggers are a threat here, but if you get successfully keylogged, 
well, you're done anyways.  (And you get to laugh if the keylogger 
forgets to listen for copy-paste events.)

The other way someone could obtain my passwords is to physically steal 
them from me.  This might be problematic if I am careless and leave a 
flash drive somewhere (yeah, happened once, no theft though afaik), 
which is why I encrypt the passwords with a master password.  If that's 
too weak, I believe there are solutions that provide plausible 
deniability.  Throw a bunch of music/anime/whatever on the drive and 
viola, no one would suspect a thing.  Also, important passwords like 
bank accounts and such can be changed in such a situation.

I often have stupidly long passwords with strange characters in them and 
the such.

It'd be interesting if anyone can find other flaws in this setup.  I've 
yet to hear of anyone else doing this, oddly enough.

Works well for flash drives:
http://keepass.info/

- Chad
Oct 16 2008
prev sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Walter,
 

 There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I
 just tire of the registration process, wait for the email, respond to
 the email, complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I
 haven't used elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin
 every time I wipe my cookies, etc. Bah.


 
 I use Password Gorilla to keep track of my passwords and use uuidgen to 
 make them. Using GUIDs is a bit hard to remember but I figure they will 
 be even harder to crack!
 
 http://www.fpx.de/fp/Software/Gorilla/


Password Safe is quite nice as well.


Sean
Oct 15 2008
prev sibling parent reply =?iso-8859-1?Q?Robert_M=2E_M=FCnch?= <robert.muench robertmuench.de> writes:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:22:37 +0200, Walter Bright  
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 [...]
 There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I just tire  
 of the registration process, wait for the email, respond to the email,  
 complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I haven't used  
 elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin every time I wipe  
 my cookies, etc. Bah.


I totally agree!! Web-Forums are a step back in time (bad useage pattern  
only "modern" cosmetics), they are one of those things absolutly not  
necessary. Newsgroups are simple to use, fast, and I can handle them all  
with one client.

Maybe it's a sign of quality if the community uses newsgroups or  
web-forums ;-)

-- 
Robert M. Münch
Management & IT Freelancer
http://www.robertmuench.de
Oct 16 2008
next sibling parent reply "David Wilson" <dw botanicus.net> writes:
Would it be too much to ask for people to *stop* *having*
*conversations* on the *announce* group? :)


David.

2008/10/16 Robert M. M=FCnch <robert.muench robertmuench.de>:

 On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:22:37 +0200, Walter Bright
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 [...]
 There are a lot of sites I would post to, but don't, because I just tire
 of the registration process, wait for the email, respond to the email,
 complete the registration, come up with a nick/password I haven't used
 elsewhere, try to remember that nick/password, relogin every time I wipe=




 my

 cookies, etc. Bah.


 I totally agree!! Web-Forums are a step back in time (bad useage pattern
 only "modern" cosmetics), they are one of those things absolutly not
 necessary. Newsgroups are simple to use, fast, and I can handle them all
 with one client.

 Maybe it's a sign of quality if the community uses newsgroups or web-foru=


ms

 ;-)

 --
 Robert M. M=FCnch
 Management & IT Freelancer
 http://www.robertmuench.de
Oct 16 2008
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"David Wilson" <dw botanicus.net> wrote in message 
news:mailman.142.1224175522.3087.digitalmars-d-announce puremagic.com...

 Would it be too much to ask for people to *stop* *having*
 *conversations* on the *announce* group? :)


Would it be too much to ask people to stop top-posting? ;)

But anyway, I think it's pretty well understood that the announcements are 
just the top-level posts. Nobody's going to make an announcement further 
down the tree unless they don't want it to really be much of an 
"announcement". And it seems silly for something that starts on one group to 
suddenly switch over to a different group for its own discussion.
Oct 16 2008
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Robert M. Münch wrote:

 I totally agree!! Web-Forums are a step back in time (bad useage pattern 
 only "modern" cosmetics), they are one of those things absolutly not 
 necessary. Newsgroups are simple to use, fast, and I can handle them all 
 with one client.


I also tire of the avatars people use, and the great deal of vertical 
screen real estate a single message takes up. It's also hard to follow 
threads, as everything gets linearized. Worst, it's hard to tell what 
messages you've read and what you haven't. I really like with n.g. I can 
see at a glance what's new, and what I haven't read yet. I can also tag 
particular postings with color for my own reasons. Forum software seems 
oriented towards glitter rather than functionality.

The reddit forum software is the best, but it still stinks as it's very 
hard to go back to a page and see what is new since you last looked at it.

To be fair, with n.g. the backquoting is often excessive.
Oct 16 2008
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:gd84oj$85u$1 digitalmars.com...

 Robert M. Münch wrote:

 I totally agree!! Web-Forums are a step back in time (bad useage pattern 
 only "modern" cosmetics), they are one of those things absolutly not 
 necessary. Newsgroups are simple to use, fast, and I can handle them all 
 with one client.


 I also tire of the avatars people use, and the great deal of vertical 
 screen real estate a single message takes up. It's also hard to follow 
 threads, as everything gets linearized. Worst, it's hard to tell what 
 messages you've read and what you haven't. I really like with n.g. I can 
 see at a glance what's new, and what I haven't read yet. I can also tag 
 particular postings with color for my own reasons. Forum software seems 
 oriented towards glitter rather than functionality.


None of that is anything that's inherent to web forums. There's nothing 
preventing a web forum from not suffering from any of that. Many of those 
things, including "what you've read or not read" are things I've seen web 
forums not have any problem with.

Though I admit, in the time I've been using this newsgroup I've come to 
prefer newsgoups for many of the reasons people have mentioned, and for the 
same resons I prefer a real email client over webmail (whenever I'm at my 
own computer, anyway). The only thing that really bothers me about 
newsgroups is when websites aren't clear about the name of their newsgroup 
server. The newsgroup name is always mentioned, but the server name 
sometimes gets glossed over, so you have to guess.
Oct 16 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:37 AM, Jarrett Billingsley
<jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote:

 On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Chris R. Miller
 <lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> wrote:

 BCS wrote:

 Reply to tim,

 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.


 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that includes
 just dropping using whatever the forums is about.

 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.

 If tango had a NG, in all likely hood, I'd be using it right now (I don't
 for that and other reasons).


 What about mailing lists, such as Google Groups?  They allow you to treat it
 as a forum or as a mailing list.


 GG will not index news.digitalmars.com.  I guess there aren't enough D
 users at Google to make them care.


GG also has groups hosted on Google's servers.  I think that may be
more what the OP was saying.

There is a D group there already, but only spammers post to it.

--bb
Oct 15 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Jarrett Billingsley
<jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote:

 On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Chris R. Miller
 <lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> wrote:

 BCS wrote:

 Reply to tim,

 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.


 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that includes
 just dropping using whatever the forums is about.

 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.

 If tango had a NG, in all likely hood, I'd be using it right now (I don't
 for that and other reasons).


 What about mailing lists, such as Google Groups?  They allow you to treat it
 as a forum or as a mailing list.


 GG will not index news.digitalmars.com.  I guess there aren't enough D
 users at Google to make them care.


And it still doesn't solve the identity issue.
Oct 15 2008
next sibling parent reply "Chris R. Miller" <lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Jarrett Billingsley
 <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> wrote:

 On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Chris R. Miller
 <lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> wrote:

 BCS wrote:

 Reply to tim,

 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.


 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that includes
 just dropping using whatever the forums is about.

 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.

 If tango had a NG, in all likely hood, I'd be using it right now (I don't
 for that and other reasons).


 What about mailing lists, such as Google Groups?  They allow you to treat it
 as a forum or as a mailing list.


 GG will not index news.digitalmars.com.  I guess there aren't enough D
 users at Google to make them care.


 
 And it still doesn't solve the identity issue.


As an admin at the Linux Users Group on Google Groups I've banned tons 
of spammers.  Google Groups has excellent access control features.

I was more suggesting (since some were implicitly suggesting a migration 
to a forum) that we consider a Google Group as well.  I prefer mailing 
lists since I love having all my discussion media in my inbox.  Running 
'round the web and checking a dozen forums doesn't rub me the right way. 
  With the NG I can use Thunderbird to access it, which is great.  But 
Apple Mail doesn't have an NG interface, which sucks, but I'll get over it.

With a Google Group you can subscribe either as a web forum (no email) 
or as a mailing list (email messages), so it has the best of both forums 
and the NG IMHO.  The NG's great feature being that you can use 
Thunderbird or another NG client to access the NG like you would you email.

I'm just tossing the idea around, I'm not directly advocating a change - 
I don't care enough to attach my name to a ballot or anything.
Oct 15 2008
parent "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Chris R. Miller
<lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> wrote:
 I prefer mailing lists

 since I love having all my discussion media in my inbox.  Running 'round the
 web and checking a dozen forums doesn't rub me the right way.  With the NG I
 can use Thunderbird to access it, which is great.  But Apple Mail doesn't
 have an NG interface, which sucks, but I'll get over it.


For mailing list lovers, in case you weren't aware:

   http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo

--bb
Oct 15 2008
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 And it still doesn't solve the identity issue.


I don't think it's a problem that needs solving.
Oct 15 2008
parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Hello Walter,


 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 

 And it still doesn't solve the identity issue.
 


 I don't think it's a problem that needs solving.
 



Well, this group already has suffered from several cases of identity abuse 
(including sock puppetry): you can't deny that as an issue.  I think that's 
why the identity problem was brought up.  I know you feel anonymous posting 
is fine: perhaps that's what you meant by this not being "a problem that 
needs solving".  

I assume nntp authentication could help minimize such a problem for those 
that want to remain anonymous... or, for those users that don't mind
identifying 
themselves, I suppose digital signing is an option.

-JJR
Oct 15 2008
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Chris R. Miller" <lordsauronthegreat gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:gd5c52$18ti$1 digitalmars.com...

 BCS wrote:

 Reply to tim,

 I usually complain about news groups. I think they are so obsolete
 with  web message boards aka forums. I was really annoyied to find
 that  http://dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1 was closed down and
 replaced  with a newsgroup here. It's a major step BACKWARDS into the
 past. If all  this was on a forum we would not have to worry about
 identity stealing.


 FWIW: I *never* use forums if I have /any/ other choice. And that 
 includes just dropping using whatever the forums is about.

 If D only had a forum, in all likely hood, I would not use D.

 If tango had a NG, in all likely hood, I'd be using it right now (I don't 
 for that and other reasons).


 What about mailing lists, such as Google Groups?  They allow you to treat 
 it as a forum or as a mailing list.


I truly hate mailing lists.

- Your email address is often posted on the web archive, and you can't 
always opt-out of that posting, nor can you just use junk like "a a.a". 
Granted it's often in an obfuscated format, but it's usually such a simple 
and standardized "obfuscation" that any spambot could be modified to account 
for it in about two minutes.

- Impossible to do tree-views without resorting to tactics that would be 
email-client-specific.

- Have to bother with registration. A mailing list could be made to allow 
anon-posting, but that would be a bigger spam magnet than what at least this 
newsgroup seems to be. A web forum could allow anon-posting with a CAPTCHA, 
but I've never seem a mailing list do that (though it could be possible 
through a web interface to the mailing list). And I'm not certain, but I'd 
imagine you could probably make unauthorized posts by simply spoofing an 
email address that's already registered (and obtainable from the archives), 
instead of having to find a password or forum software exploit.

- Web archives (if available) aren't always up-to-date enough for web-forum 
or newsgroup-style lurking.

- Like newsgroups, and unlike web forums, there's no distributed state for 
"Which messages have I read" (Well, unless you use IMAP).
Oct 16 2008