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digitalmars.D.announce - New language based on D

reply Dibyendu Majumdar <d.majumdar gmail.com> writes:
I am starting a project to create a new language based on D.

The name I have chosen is Laser-D.
It is supposed to be Lesser D - rather than Better C. This 
follows from my post about better branding for Better-C.

The project will basically be about turning off certain features 
in D - the language will have better C option baked in. I do not 
intend to make any changes to D itself other than turning off 
features.

The main effort will be update documentation that accurately 
reflects what works in the language. So there will be a new 
language reference.

The project will be hosted at https://github.com/laser-d

I hope to start creating content soon.

Regards
Dibyendu
Nov 12 2020
next sibling parent reply Faux Amis <faux amis.com> writes:
On 2020-11-12 16:08, Dibyendu Majumdar wrote:

 I am starting a project to create a new language based on D.
 
 The name I have chosen is Laser-D.
 It is supposed to be Lesser D - rather than Better C. This follows from 
 my post about better branding for Better-C.
 
 The project will basically be about turning off certain features in D - 
 the language will have better C option baked in. I do not intend to make 
 any changes to D itself other than turning off features.
 
 The main effort will be update documentation that accurately reflects 
 what works in the language. So there will be a new language reference.
 
 The project will be hosted at https://github.com/laser-d
 
 I hope to start creating content soon.
 
 Regards
 Dibyendu


I was thinking about something similar: Basic-D, a subset of D which 
would be a perfect starting language with appropriate docs and tutorials.

Maybe these type of subset languages could be integrated in the D frontpage.
Nov 12 2020
next sibling parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:28:44 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:


 Maybe these type of subset languages could be integrated in the 
 D frontpage.


I hope not. That would create lots of problems:

- There are multiple versions of the language.
- What happens when a version dies? What do you tell the 
developers (perhaps even businesses) that relied on a version 
they downloaded from the official homepage that now have a dead 
version?
- What if a developer makes weird changes (like removing int, 
which would still be a subset) or goes Windows-only because of 
the burden maintaining for multiple OSes? Is that something that 
should be promoted on the official homepage?

These are just the problems that immediately come to mind. I'm 
sure there are others. Open source is wonderful because it lets 
things like this happen. That doesn't mean we want to promote 
them on dlang.org.
Nov 12 2020
next sibling parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 19:00:51 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:28:44 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:


 Maybe these type of subset languages could be integrated in 
 the D frontpage.


 I hope not. That would create lots of problems:

 - There are multiple versions of the language.


That is already the case though. If you only use gdc or ldc, then 
you get access to features that wont compile with dmd.
Nov 13 2020
prev sibling parent Faux Amis <faux amis.com> writes:
On 2020-11-12 20:00, bachmeier wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:28:44 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:
 

 Maybe these type of subset languages could be integrated in the D 
 frontpage.


 
 I hope not. That would create lots of problems:
 
 - There are multiple versions of the language.
 - What happens when a version dies? What do you tell the developers 
 (perhaps even businesses) that relied on a version they downloaded from 
 the official homepage that now have a dead version?
 - What if a developer makes weird changes (like removing int, which 
 would still be a subset) or goes Windows-only because of the burden 
 maintaining for multiple OSes? Is that something that should be promoted 
 on the official homepage?
 
 These are just the problems that immediately come to mind. I'm sure 
 there are others. Open source is wonderful because it lets things like 
 this happen. That doesn't mean we want to promote them on dlang.org.


I wasn't clear before. The subset I was thinking about would only be 
supervisual; the basic-D documentation and tutorials would only touch 
those parts that would be part of the basic-D version. The underlying 
compiler would just be the normal dmd compiler, nothing changed.

I thik that within D there is a nice novice language lurking, but it is 
hidden by all the complex parts.
Nov 18 2020
prev sibling parent reply Dibyendu Majumdar <d.majumdar gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:28:44 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:


 I was thinking about something similar: Basic-D, a subset of D 
 which would be a perfect starting language with appropriate 
 docs and tutorials.

 Maybe these type of subset languages could be integrated in the 
 D frontpage.


I think it is too early for that as my project is not yet 
started, and it may not have any traction. I believe that if I 
can create solid documentation then it might make a difference 
but we will see.

Fortunately or not - I have limited time - so I won't be making 
changes to D other than very simple patches to switch off some 
things. I simply cannot afford to spend time on maintaining a 
different code base. My main focus will be to create 
documentation.

I can probably do one thing - guarantee that the new language is 
a proper subset of D and that any code in laser-D is guaranteed 
to build with dmd, ldc, gdc.
Nov 13 2020
next sibling parent reply Paul Backus <snarwin gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 12:25:48 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
wrote:

 Fortunately or not - I have limited time - so I won't be making 
 changes to D other than very simple patches to switch off some 
 things. I simply cannot afford to spend time on maintaining a 
 different code base. My main focus will be to create 
 documentation.

 I can probably do one thing - guarantee that the new language 
 is a proper subset of D and that any code in laser-D is 
 guaranteed to build with dmd, ldc, gdc.


It sounds like maybe your time would be better spent improving 
the official D documentation to say which features and libraries 
are compatible with betterC and which are not.
Nov 13 2020
parent reply Dibyendu Majumdar <d.majumdar gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 13:41:50 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:

 It sounds like maybe your time would be better spent improving 
 the official D documentation to say which features and 
 libraries are compatible with betterC and which are not.


Not really. It is a waste of time trying to do that.
Nov 13 2020
parent reply Paul Backus <snarwin gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 15:22:03 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
wrote:

 On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 13:41:50 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:

 It sounds like maybe your time would be better spent improving 
 the official D documentation to say which features and 
 libraries are compatible with betterC and which are not.


 Not really. It is a waste of time trying to do that.


Why is it a waste of time? If I understand your proposal 
correctly, you will be doing more or less the same work either 
way--that is, figuring out which features and libraries still 
work with certain language features disabled. The only difference 
is whether you write up your results in a separate document, or 
incorporate them into the official documentation.
Nov 13 2020
parent Dibyendu Majumdar <d.majumdar gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 16:18:32 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:

 Why is it a waste of time? If I understand your proposal 
 correctly, you will be doing more or less the same work either 
 way--that is, figuring out which features and libraries still 
 work with certain language features disabled. The only 
 difference is whether you write up your results in a separate 
 document, or incorporate them into the official documentation.


For several reasons.

My goal is to create good docs without being constrained by 
existing docs (I will of course reuse what I can).

I have little time so I need to make most efficient use of it - 
and not get bogged down by discussions, arguments, process.

I think it is almost certain that Laser-D docs will not fit into 
the D docs model. Because my goal is make Laser-D attractive, and 
that means stripping out anything that will not work in Laser-D.
Nov 13 2020
prev sibling parent reply dangbinghoo <dangbinghoo gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 12:25:48 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:28:44 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:


 [...]


 I think it is too early for that as my project is not yet 
 started, and it may not have any traction. I believe that if I 
 can create solid documentation then it might make a difference 
 but we will see.

 Fortunately or not - I have limited time - so I won't be making 
 changes to D other than very simple patches to switch off some 
 things. I simply cannot afford to spend time on maintaining a 
 different code base. My main focus will be to create 
 documentation.

 I can probably do one thing - guarantee that the new language 
 is a proper subset of D and that any code in laser-D is 
 guaranteed to build with dmd, ldc, gdc.


people want betterC, and if we can add Interface to current D's 
(betterC) struct (which works like Rust's trait), it would be 
more attractive! ^_^

----
binghoo dang
Nov 16 2020
next sibling parent Dibyendu Majumdar <d.majumdar gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2020 at 05:50:27 UTC, dangbinghoo wrote:


 people want betterC, and if we can add Interface to current D's 
 (betterC) struct (which works like Rust's trait), it would be 
 more attractive! ^_^


Yes, right now Better C is not a match for Rust because Rust has 
traits and algebraic types which are really important ways to 
improve on C.

I am not sure if I will be able to solve this as I do not want to 
make changes that would be incompatible with D.
Nov 17 2020
prev sibling parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2020 at 05:50:27 UTC, dangbinghoo wrote:

 On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 12:25:48 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
 wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:28:44 UTC, Faux Amis wrote:


 [...]


 I think it is too early for that as my project is not yet 
 started, and it may not have any traction. I believe that if I 
 can create solid documentation then it might make a difference 
 but we will see.

 Fortunately or not - I have limited time - so I won't be 
 making changes to D other than very simple patches to switch 
 off some things. I simply cannot afford to spend time on 
 maintaining a different code base. My main focus will be to 
 create documentation.

 I can probably do one thing - guarantee that the new language 
 is a proper subset of D and that any code in laser-D is 
 guaranteed to build with dmd, ldc, gdc.


 people want betterC, and if we can add Interface to current D's 
 (betterC) struct (which works like Rust's trait), it would be 
 more attractive! ^_^

 ----
 binghoo dang


You might find Atila Neves's tardy [1] or Jean-Louis Leroy's open 
methods [2] libraries interesting. I don't know if they work with 
betterC though.


[1] https://github.com/atilaneves/tardy
[2] https://github.com/jll63/openmethods.d
Nov 17 2020
parent reply dangbinghoo <dangbinghoo gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2020 at 13:12:04 UTC, jmh530 wrote:

 On Tuesday, 17 November 2020 at 05:50:27 UTC, dangbinghoo wrote:

 On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 12:25:48 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
 wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:28:44 UTC, Faux Amis 
 wrote:


 [...]


 I think it is too early for that as my project is not yet 
 started, and it may not have any traction. I believe that if 
 I can create solid documentation then it might make a 
 difference but we will see.

 Fortunately or not - I have limited time - so I won't be 
 making changes to D other than very simple patches to switch 
 off some things. I simply cannot afford to spend time on 
 maintaining a different code base. My main focus will be to 
 create documentation.

 I can probably do one thing - guarantee that the new language 
 is a proper subset of D and that any code in laser-D is 
 guaranteed to build with dmd, ldc, gdc.


 people want betterC, and if we can add Interface to current 
 D's (betterC) struct (which works like Rust's trait), it would 
 be more attractive! ^_^

 ----
 binghoo dang


 You might find Atila Neves's tardy [1] or Jean-Louis Leroy's 
 open methods [2] libraries interesting. I don't know if they 
 work with betterC though.


 [1] https://github.com/atilaneves/tardy
 [2] https://github.com/jll63/openmethods.d


it seems that tardy is more close to this topic. and open-methods 
is dispatching system for 'Normal D'. and both of them uses 
keyword `interface`, and "Interfaces describe a list of functions 
that a class that inherits from the interface must implement". 
shows these may not work with betterC.

thanks!
----
binghoo dang
Nov 17 2020
parent Nick Treleaven <nick geany.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 18 November 2020 at 00:58:40 UTC, dangbinghoo wrote:

 both of them uses keyword `interface`, and "Interfaces describe 
 a list of functions that a class that inherits from the 
 interface must implement". shows these may not work with 
 betterC.


Pretty sure tardy only uses an interface definition for compile 
time introspection (probably the same goes for open-methods). The 
instance of Polymorphic doesn't convert to any interface type or 
Object.
Nov 25 2020
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jack <jckj33 gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:08:55 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
wrote:

 I am starting a project to create a new language based on D.

 The name I have chosen is Laser-D.
 It is supposed to be Lesser D - rather than Better C. This 
 follows from my post about better branding for Better-C.

 The project will basically be about turning off certain 
 features in D - the language will have better C option baked 
 in. I do not intend to make any changes to D itself other than 
 turning off features.

 The main effort will be update documentation that accurately 
 reflects what works in the language. So there will be a new 
 language reference.

 The project will be hosted at https://github.com/laser-d

 I hope to start creating content soon.

 Regards
 Dibyendu


Where are you going to use this subset? embedded systems? 
desktop? are you going to cut features only not change anything 
else?
Nov 14 2020
parent Dibyendu Majumdar <d.majumdar gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 14 November 2020 at 16:03:31 UTC, Jack wrote:

  are you going to cut features only not change anything else?


Indeed. Less is sometimes more.
Nov 14 2020
prev sibling parent reply Dibyendu Majumdar <mobile majumdar.org.uk> writes:
On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:08:55 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
wrote:

 I am starting a project to create a new language based on D.

 The name I have chosen is Laser-D.
 It is supposed to be Lesser D - rather than Better C. This 
 follows from my post about better branding for Better-C.


Started working on docs. It will take sometime to cover 
everything I need to cover, but in the meantime if anyone cares 
to provide feedback that would be very welcome!

https://laser-d.github.io/

Sources are at:

https://github.com/laser-d/laser-d-docs/edit/main/src/laser-d.rst

It is being written in reStructuredText.
Nov 15 2020
parent Imperatorn <johan_forsberg_86 hotmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 15 November 2020 at 18:22:06 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar 
wrote:

 On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:08:55 UTC, Dibyendu 
 Majumdar wrote:

 I am starting a project to create a new language based on D.

 The name I have chosen is Laser-D.
 It is supposed to be Lesser D - rather than Better C. This 
 follows from my post about better branding for Better-C.


 Started working on docs. It will take sometime to cover 
 everything I need to cover, but in the meantime if anyone cares 
 to provide feedback that would be very welcome!

 https://laser-d.github.io/

 Sources are at:

 https://github.com/laser-d/laser-d-docs/edit/main/src/laser-d.rst

 It is being written in reStructuredText.


Nice initiative
Nov 25 2020