digitalmars.D.announce - LDC 1.24.0-beta1
- kinke (8/8) Oct 01 2020 Glad to announce the first beta for LDC 1.24:
- Guillaume Piolat (8/16) Oct 05 2020 Thanks!
- aberba (3/11) Oct 18 2020 It would be convenient if you provided a .exe installer as well.
- Adam D. Ruppe (4/5) Oct 18 2020 You can simply unzip it and use it directly.
- aberba (4/9) Oct 18 2020 It's what I did and added to my system path...but that's if you
- Bastiaan Veelo (4/16) Oct 19 2020 I'm not suggesting that this fills the need of newbies, but there
- Adam D. Ruppe (11/13) Oct 19 2020 Nobody should ever follow those terrible instructions, they leave
- Paul Backus (5/12) Oct 19 2020 Are we looking at the same instructions? The ones I see at that
- Adam D. Ruppe (5/6) Oct 19 2020 aaaaah i mixed it up with
- notna (11/14) Oct 19 2020 use scoop for Windows package mgmt in a user context. build with
- Andre Pany (6/21) Oct 19 2020 Also Microsoft is working on a package manager which might be an
- Basile B. (3/29) Oct 20 2020 Looks a bit like "classic MS". Instead of buying something
- aberba (5/31) Oct 20 2020 Yes, I have it (winget) installed. Still, the absence of an exe
- aberba (3/18) Oct 20 2020 It's an option but doesn't fill the need for an installer. Not
- kinke (8/10) Oct 20 2020 See https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/issues/1754. I
- jmh530 (11/19) Oct 20 2020 I'm sympathetic to Ilya's concerns in that thread, but it would
- aberba (6/16) Oct 20 2020 Supposing I'm new to D, I have previous experience with
- Kagamin (4/9) Oct 23 2020 Supposedly they will want an IDE with everything included in one
- aberba (20/30) Oct 23 2020 Not saying Kinke SHOULD do it. Was rather disagreeing with the
- bachmeier (4/6) Oct 23 2020 Out of curiosity, what is the alternative message? Someone has to
- Imperatorn (4/12) Oct 23 2020 I agree with this. Not providing an installer gives the message
- starcanopy (8/21) Oct 23 2020 That's an exaggeration. Every release is accompanied by binaries
- Imperatorn (5/28) Oct 24 2020 Yes, but if you want to spread D to the world, you might have to
- Patrick Schluter (9/32) Oct 26 2020 You underestimate how spoiled windows developer are. Even these
- rikki cattermole (9/18) Oct 26 2020 Right click start menu, System -> System Info -> Advanced system
- Kagamin (4/13) Oct 26 2020 I use
- Guillaume Piolat (3/13) Oct 25 2020 How about this then?
- Imperatorn (3/17) Oct 25 2020 👍
- aberba (11/15) Oct 20 2020 From the discussions, it seems you still don't see the value of
- Johan Engelen (12/29) Oct 20 2020 Guys, all points have been made, there is no wrong and right
- jmh530 (4/18) Oct 20 2020 Someone who wants to take it on could modify the DMD one
- John Colvin (40/74) Oct 22 2020 Johan hits an important nail right on the head here.
Glad to announce the first beta for LDC 1.24: - Based on D 2.094.0+. - Support for LLVM 11. The prebuilt packages use v11.0.0-rc4+, and the x86 packages newly include the LLVM backend for AMD GPUs. Full release log and downloads: https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/releases/tag/v1.24.0-beta1 Please help test, and thanks to all contributors & sponsors!
Oct 01 2020
Guillaume Piolat <first.name gmail.com> On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 18:04:35 UTC, kinke wrote:Glad to announce the first beta for LDC 1.24: - Based on D 2.094.0+. - Support for LLVM 11. The prebuilt packages use v11.0.0-rc4+, and the x86 packages newly include the LLVM backend for AMD GPUs. Full release log and downloads: https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/releases/tag/v1.24.0-beta1 Please help test, and thanks to all contributors & sponsors!Thanks! Now supported by https://github.com/AuburnSounds/intel-intrinsics and tests pass. The new __vector conversion rules are cool and would hopefully avoid bugs. Not too sure about int being implicitly convertible to __vector(int[N]) but we also have that for static arrays it seems.
Oct 05 2020
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 18:04:35 UTC, kinke wrote:Glad to announce the first beta for LDC 1.24: - Based on D 2.094.0+. - Support for LLVM 11. The prebuilt packages use v11.0.0-rc4+, and the x86 packages newly include the LLVM backend for AMD GPUs. Full release log and downloads: https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/releases/tag/v1.24.0-beta1 Please help test, and thanks to all contributors & sponsors!It would be convenient if you provided a .exe installer as well. Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.
Oct 18 2020
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.You can simply unzip it and use it directly. That's the best way to use most D compilers actually, then any versions can live side by side without affecting each other.
Oct 18 2020
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:47:17 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:It's what I did and added to my system path...but that's if you know what you're doing. An installer just like dmd etc is what newbies are used to.Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.You can simply unzip it and use it directly. That's the best way to use most D compilers actually, then any versions can live side by side without affecting each other.
Oct 18 2020
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 23:07:26 UTC, aberba wrote:On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:47:17 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:I'm not suggesting that this fills the need of newbies, but there is this: https://dlang.org/install.html. --Bastiaan.On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:It's what I did and added to my system path...but that's if you know what you're doing. An installer just like dmd etc is what newbies are used to.Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.You can simply unzip it and use it directly. That's the best way to use most D compilers actually, then any versions can live side by side without affecting each other.
Oct 19 2020
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 13:43:14 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:I'm not suggesting that this fills the need of newbies, but there is this: https://dlang.org/install.html.Nobody should ever follow those terrible instructions, they leave you so fragile in the event of future updates, takes superuser install access, and just generally scatters crap. If anything that page should be marked like "FOR PACKAGE MAINTAINERS ONLY" (even then I wouldn't do it that way but at least that's a kinda valid use case) since no end user should ever mess with that. Just unzip it in place. Maybe add it to your PATH if that's your thing. But don't go scattering files, you'll regret it when it comes update time.
Oct 19 2020
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 13:59:42 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 13:43:14 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:Are we looking at the same instructions? The ones I see at that URL don't require superuser access and install everything to a self-contained directory in the user's $HOME. It's pretty much exactly what you recommend, with a bit of extra automation.I'm not suggesting that this fills the need of newbies, but there is this: https://dlang.org/install.html.Nobody should ever follow those terrible instructions, they leave you so fragile in the event of future updates, takes superuser install access, and just generally scatters crap.
Oct 19 2020
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 14:20:02 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:Are we looking at the same instructions?aaaaah i mixed it up with https://dlang.org/dmd-linux.html#installation in my brain without clicking the link :( sorry my bad those are ok.
Oct 19 2020
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:It would be convenient if you provided a .exe installer as well. Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.use scoop for Windows package mgmt in a user context. build with developers in mind. for installation see: https://scoop.sh/ simple as: * scoop install dmd * scoop install ldc stay always up to date: * scoop update * scoop update * ... and MUCH more, see https://github.com/lukesampson/scoop/wiki
Oct 19 2020
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:48:11 UTC, notna wrote:On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:Also Microsoft is working on a package manager which might be an option in the future https://docs.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/package-manager/ Kind regards AndreIt would be convenient if you provided a .exe installer as well. Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.use scoop for Windows package mgmt in a user context. build with developers in mind. for installation see: https://scoop.sh/ simple as: * scoop install dmd * scoop install ldc stay always up to date: * scoop update * scoop update * ... and MUCH more, see https://github.com/lukesampson/scoop/wiki
Oct 19 2020
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 20:49:14 UTC, Andre Pany wrote:On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:48:11 UTC, notna wrote:Looks a bit like "classic MS". Instead of buying something similar that exists they do their own.On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:Also Microsoft is working on a package manager which might be an option in the future https://docs.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/package-manager/ Kind regards AndreIt would be convenient if you provided a .exe installer as well. Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.use scoop for Windows package mgmt in a user context. build with developers in mind. for installation see: https://scoop.sh/ simple as: * scoop install dmd * scoop install ldc stay always up to date: * scoop update * scoop update * ... and MUCH more, see https://github.com/lukesampson/scoop/wiki
Oct 20 2020
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 20:49:14 UTC, Andre Pany wrote:On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:48:11 UTC, notna wrote:Yes, I have it (winget) installed. Still, the absence of an exe means its more convenient to just use DMD. Unfortunately some dev have decided to not get their stuff to work on DMD. DMD is an easy get-go. No thinkering needed.On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:Also Microsoft is working on a package manager which might be an option in the future https://docs.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/package-manager/ Kind regards AndreIt would be convenient if you provided a .exe installer as well. Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.use scoop for Windows package mgmt in a user context. build with developers in mind. for installation see: https://scoop.sh/ simple as: * scoop install dmd * scoop install ldc stay always up to date: * scoop update * scoop update * ... and MUCH more, see https://github.com/lukesampson/scoop/wiki
Oct 20 2020
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:48:11 UTC, notna wrote:On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 22:40:53 UTC, aberba wrote:It's an option but doesn't fill the need for an installer. Not sure why its hasn't been done.It would be convenient if you provided a .exe installer as well. Not sure what to do with the .7z file without manual tinkering.use scoop for Windows package mgmt in a user context. build with developers in mind. for installation see: https://scoop.sh/ simple as: * scoop install dmd * scoop install ldc stay always up to date: * scoop update * scoop update * ... and MUCH more, see https://github.com/lukesampson/scoop/wiki
Oct 20 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 16:08:47 UTC, aberba wrote:It's an option but doesn't fill the need for an installer. Not sure why its hasn't been done.See https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/issues/1754. I personally never download the DMD installers, only the .7z. I also don't use a global PATH set up to point to a particular LDC installation. I expect the vast majority of Windows *devs* to prefer a simple download&unpack over some installer. Those wanting to click through setup steps can use the VisualD installer with bundled LDC.
Oct 20 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 17:36:11 UTC, kinke wrote:[snip] See https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/issues/1754. I personally never download the DMD installers, only the .7z. I also don't use a global PATH set up to point to a particular LDC installation. I expect the vast majority of Windows *devs* to prefer a simple download&unpack over some installer. Those wanting to click through setup steps can use the VisualD installer with bundled LDC.I'm sympathetic to Ilya's concerns in that thread, but it would help to get empirical. What about a calculation of the number of unique downloads for DMD's Windows installer vs. those who download the .7z? The .7z probably has more downloads for CIs, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a larger share of people downloading the DMD installer than you think. I also have a PATH set up to point to a particular LDC installation that I need to update whenever I upgrade LDC. It has caused me problems in the past when I forget to change it... I don't recall ever using the VisualD installer to install LDC.
Oct 20 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 17:36:11 UTC, kinke wrote:On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 16:08:47 UTC, aberba wrote:Supposing I'm new to D, I have previous experience with LLVM-based compilers so I prefer to use LDC. How am I supposed to know what to do? Where is the information on how to get it on my system through visualD installer? The LDC experience needs some improvement here.It's an option but doesn't fill the need for an installer. Not sure why its hasn't been done.See https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/issues/1754. I personally never download the DMD installers, only the .7z. I also don't use a global PATH set up to point to a particular LDC installation. I expect the vast majority of Windows *devs* to prefer a simple download&unpack over some installer. Those wanting to click through setup steps can use the VisualD installer with bundled LDC.
Oct 20 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 20:09:58 UTC, aberba wrote:Supposing I'm new to D, I have previous experience with LLVM-based compilers so I prefer to use LDC. How am I supposed to know what to do? Where is the information on how to get it on my system through visualD installer? The LDC experience needs some improvement here.Supposedly they will want an IDE with everything included in one installer, like Visual Studio, and that's what VisualD installer apparently does.
Oct 23 2020
On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 18:01:19 UTC, Kagamin wrote:On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 20:09:58 UTC, aberba wrote:Not saying Kinke SHOULD do it. Was rather disagreeing with the idea that "developers" don't use installers. And that's a shortcoming with the LDC project...no straightforward way to set it up on Windows using an installer. If visuald supports LDC, why not point people to it. LDC at its current state is a small fraction of DMD, why? Convenience. That's the core difference. And convenience sells. And this is only a Windows problem ( started using Windows few weeks ago and now seeing devs don't provide an installer). Now someone is going to tell me as always (I think its already said) to go do it myself. I don't really see it as a priority for me ATM as I know how to do without an installer. But just know that all successful languages have Windows installers I've found the need to use or try. Those that don't are niche and not ready for mass adoption simple because it easier to use something else that hacking your way out of a first impression. Of course we have DMD. Beginners, if you want an LDC installer then "Go do it yourself". I wouldn't consider that a good message.Supposing I'm new to D, I have previous experience with LLVM-based compilers so I prefer to use LDC. How am I supposed to know what to do? Where is the information on how to get it on my system through visualD installer? The LDC experience needs some improvement here.Supposedly they will want an IDE with everything included in one installer, like Visual Studio, and that's what VisualD installer apparently does.
Oct 23 2020
On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 20:21:39 UTC, aberba wrote:Beginners, if you want an LDC installer then "Go do it yourself". I wouldn't consider that a good message.Out of curiosity, what is the alternative message? Someone has to do it. This is a volunteer project, not a business, so there's not a manager that can put a couple guys on it.
Oct 23 2020
On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 20:21:39 UTC, aberba wrote:On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 18:01:19 UTC, Kagamin wrote:I agree with this. Not providing an installer gives the message that you're not that interested in people using it. If I have the time later I can try to fix an installer.[...]Not saying Kinke SHOULD do it. Was rather disagreeing with the idea that "developers" don't use installers. And that's a shortcoming with the LDC project...no straightforward way to set it up on Windows using an installer. If visuald supports LDC, why not point people to it. [...]
Oct 23 2020
On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 22:48:33 UTC, Imperatorn wrote:On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 20:21:39 UTC, aberba wrote:That's an exaggeration. Every release is accompanied by binaries that one may easily retrieve. Setting up the dependencies is only done once, and if you're a Windows developer, such an environment most likely exists, and you'll likely only have to add the bin to your path. It's my understanding that there are few people regularly working on LDC; allocating (voluntary!) manpower to a nice but non-essential component doesn't seem wise.On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 18:01:19 UTC, Kagamin wrote:I agree with this. Not providing an installer gives the message that you're not that interested in people using it.[...]Not saying Kinke SHOULD do it. Was rather disagreeing with the idea that "developers" don't use installers. And that's a shortcoming with the LDC project...no straightforward way to set it up on Windows using an installer. If visuald supports LDC, why not point people to it. [...]
Oct 23 2020
On Saturday, 24 October 2020 at 00:00:02 UTC, starcanopy wrote:On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 22:48:33 UTC, Imperatorn wrote:Yes, but if you want to spread D to the world, you might have to lower the effort in using it as much as possible. Ok, I'm comparing to the experience of like top 20 languages, sure. But why not dream big ey? 🚀On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 20:21:39 UTC, aberba wrote:That's an exaggeration. Every release is accompanied by binaries that one may easily retrieve. Setting up the dependencies is only done once, and if you're a Windows developer, such an environment most likely exists, and you'll likely only have to add the bin to your path. It's my understanding that there are few people regularly working on LDC; allocating (voluntary!) manpower to a nice but non-essential component doesn't seem wise.On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 18:01:19 UTC, Kagamin wrote:I agree with this. Not providing an installer gives the message that you're not that interested in people using it.[...]Not saying Kinke SHOULD do it. Was rather disagreeing with the idea that "developers" don't use installers. And that's a shortcoming with the LDC project...no straightforward way to set it up on Windows using an installer. If visuald supports LDC, why not point people to it. [...]
Oct 24 2020
On Saturday, 24 October 2020 at 00:00:02 UTC, starcanopy wrote:On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 22:48:33 UTC, Imperatorn wrote:You underestimate how spoiled windows developer are. Even these simple step are completely out of character for most software on the platform. 20 years ago it wasn't a problem, now on Windows 10 it's a whole other story. How many clicks to get the dialog to set PATH? On NT4 it was 2 clicks, now on Windows 10 I still haven't figured out how to do it without searching like a madman. To make it short. The Windows platform is getting more and more hostile to manual tuning.On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 20:21:39 UTC, aberba wrote:That's an exaggeration. Every release is accompanied by binaries that one may easily retrieve. Setting up the dependencies is only done once, and if you're a Windows developer, such an environment most likely exists, and you'll likely only have to add the bin to your path. It's my understanding that there are few people regularly working on LDC; allocating (voluntary!) manpower to a nice but non-essential component doesn't seem wise.On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 18:01:19 UTC, Kagamin wrote:I agree with this. Not providing an installer gives the message that you're not that interested in people using it.[...]Not saying Kinke SHOULD do it. Was rather disagreeing with the idea that "developers" don't use installers. And that's a shortcoming with the LDC project...no straightforward way to set it up on Windows using an installer. If visuald supports LDC, why not point people to it. [...]
Oct 26 2020
On 26/10/2020 8:14 PM, Patrick Schluter wrote:You underestimate how spoiled windows developer are. Even these simple step are completely out of character for most software on the platform. 20 years ago it wasn't a problem, now on Windows 10 it's a whole other story. How many clicks to get the dialog to set PATH? On NT4 it was 2 clicks, now on Windows 10 I still haven't figured out how to do it without searching like a madman. To make it short. The Windows platform is getting more and more hostile to manual tuning.Right click start menu, System -> System Info -> Advanced system settings -> Environment variables Or: Open start menu: type "environment", select "Edit environment variables for your account" Windows is hiding stuff that the majority of users should not need to know about. But everything is easily accessible if you know what you want to do (well everything except changing updates).
Oct 26 2020
On Monday, 26 October 2020 at 07:14:55 UTC, Patrick Schluter wrote:You underestimate how spoiled windows developer are. Even these simple step are completely out of character for most software on the platform. 20 years ago it wasn't a problem, now on Windows 10 it's a whole other story. How many clicks to get the dialog to set PATH? On NT4 it was 2 clicks, now on Windows 10 I still haven't figured out how to do it without searching like a madman. To make it short. The Windows platform is getting more and more hostile to manual tuning.I use set PATH=%SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%
Oct 26 2020
On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 18:01:19 UTC, Kagamin wrote:On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 20:09:58 UTC, aberba wrote:How about this then? https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/pull/3598Supposing I'm new to D, I have previous experience with LLVM-based compilers so I prefer to use LDC. How am I supposed to know what to do? Where is the information on how to get it on my system through visualD installer? The LDC experience needs some improvement here.Supposedly they will want an IDE with everything included in one installer, like Visual Studio, and that's what VisualD installer apparently does.
Oct 25 2020
On Sunday, 25 October 2020 at 13:59:44 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:On Friday, 23 October 2020 at 18:01:19 UTC, Kagamin wrote:👍On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 20:09:58 UTC, aberba wrote:How about this then? https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/pull/3598Supposing I'm new to D, I have previous experience with LLVM-based compilers so I prefer to use LDC. How am I supposed to know what to do? Where is the information on how to get it on my system through visualD installer? The LDC experience needs some improvement here.Supposedly they will want an IDE with everything included in one installer, like Visual Studio, and that's what VisualD installer apparently does.
Oct 25 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 17:36:11 UTC, kinke wrote:On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 16:08:47 UTC, aberba wrote:From the discussions, it seems you still don't see the value of an installer...backing it with the idea that LDC is for "developers". I'm a developer myself and I use installers all the time when on Windows...there are very few people I personally know who would go for an archive file to set it up themselves. So not everyone is like you. The reason why I personally go for DMD over LDC is convenience (especially when introducing D to newbies)...even though LDC is more optimized for performance. Unless what you guys are doing is an artificial barrier to get others to not use it.It's an option but doesn't fill the need for an installer. Not sure why its hasn't been done.See https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/issues/1754.
Oct 20 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 20:21:56 UTC, aberba wrote:On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 17:36:11 UTC, kinke wrote:Guys, all points have been made, there is no wrong and right here, let's stop arguing over this. What is needed is someone who thinks it is useful to have an exe installer and wants to do the work. It cannot be done by someone who thinks it is not useful, because there are decisions to be made (like which folder to install it in, whether to overwrite old or not), that can only be made by someone who actually cares about it. There is no point in trying to convince kinke or me. I'm sure noone will be against uploading the installer exe onto github release page once it's been made and checked. -JohanOn Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 16:08:47 UTC, aberba wrote:From the discussions, it seems you still don't see the value of an installer...backing it with the idea that LDC is for "developers". I'm a developer myself and I use installers all the time when on Windows...there are very few people I personally know who would go for an archive file to set it up themselves. So not everyone is like you. The reason why I personally go for DMD over LDC is convenience (especially when introducing D to newbies)...even though LDC is more optimized for performance. Unless what you guys are doing is an artificial barrier to get others to not use it.It's an option but doesn't fill the need for an installer. Not sure why its hasn't been done.See https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/issues/1754.
Oct 20 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 21:58:16 UTC, Johan Engelen wrote:On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 20:21:56 UTC, aberba wrote:Someone who wants to take it on could modify the DMD one https://github.com/dlang/installer/blob/master/windows/ It looks like it uses NSIS.[...]Guys, all points have been made, there is no wrong and right here, let's stop arguing over this. What is needed is someone who thinks it is useful to have an exe installer and wants to do the work. It cannot be done by someone who thinks it is not useful, because there are decisions to be made (like which folder to install it in, whether to overwrite old or not), that can only be made by someone who actually cares about it. There is no point in trying to convince kinke or me. I'm sure noone will be against uploading the installer exe onto github release page once it's been made and checked. -Johan
Oct 20 2020
On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 21:58:16 UTC, Johan Engelen wrote:On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 20:21:56 UTC, aberba wrote:Johan hits an important nail right on the head here. While it is possible to design for others who are unlike you, it's much harder than designing for yourself or those who have similar values and priorities w.r.t. the thing in question. A lot of talk about "we (and by we I mean you) should do this thing I think is important" isn't pushing in the most productive direction, because _*_*_{ even if one becomes convinced that there is value in something, that does not mean one has the relevant understanding necessary for good design of that thing }_*_*_ Either the person with the problem works on understanding the tools to fix the problem, or the person with the tools works on understanding the problem. When values and "user experience" and "ease of use" are in play, I think the latter usually gets harder than normal, because understanding what will be easy or pleasing for others who are unlike us is not something everyone is good at.* This shifts the balance towards preferring the former approach where the person with the problem works towards doing at least a significant part of the design.** There will always be other considerations of course, this is just one force out of many. This is not to say that developers shouldn't be thoughtful about their users - they definitely should be - but that doing a good job of that when the users are unlike the developer is _hard_. * Perhaps in practice that ability is negatively associated with a strong sense of personal taste, e.g. great musicians writing the music _they_ want, not trying to specifically please people; the magic isn't that they understand other people, it's that their particular tastes resonate with others strongly. Maybe truly great mass-market businesses come from people who both have that magic _and_ a strong ability to experience their work from other's perspectives, the combination being rare and the ability to integrate the two effectively being even rarer (Steve Jobs comes to mind). ** Design and implementation often don't separate very cleanly in practice, so this probably means implementing it too, at least to proof-of-concept quality.On Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 17:36:11 UTC, kinke wrote:Guys, all points have been made, there is no wrong and right here, let's stop arguing over this. What is needed is someone who thinks it is useful to have an exe installer and wants to do the work. It cannot be done by someone who thinks it is not useful, because there are decisions to be made (like which folder to install it in, whether to overwrite old or not), that can only be made by someone who actually cares about it. There is no point in trying to convince kinke or me. I'm sure noone will be against uploading the installer exe onto github release page once it's been made and checked. -JohanOn Tuesday, 20 October 2020 at 16:08:47 UTC, aberba wrote:From the discussions, it seems you still don't see the value of an installer...backing it with the idea that LDC is for "developers". I'm a developer myself and I use installers all the time when on Windows...there are very few people I personally know who would go for an archive file to set it up themselves. So not everyone is like you. The reason why I personally go for DMD over LDC is convenience (especially when introducing D to newbies)...even though LDC is more optimized for performance. Unless what you guys are doing is an artificial barrier to get others to not use it.It's an option but doesn't fill the need for an installer. Not sure why its hasn't been done.See https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/issues/1754.
Oct 22 2020