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digitalmars.D.announce - Is D programming friendly for beginners?

reply Fidele <fidele gmail.com> writes:
I want to start learning D programming language it looks 
interesting
Mar 04
next sibling parent Sergey <kornburn yandex.ru> writes:
On Monday, 4 March 2024 at 13:37:53 UTC, Fidele wrote:

 I want to start learning D programming language it looks 
 interesting


Please use "Learn" Group of the forum, this part of the forum for 
Announcements.

Here are some useful links:
* Tour - https://tour.dlang.org
* Online Book - http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html
* Other materials in Wiki - 
https://wiki.dlang.org/The_D_Programming_Language
Mar 04
prev sibling next sibling parent evilrat <evilrat666 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 March 2024 at 13:37:53 UTC, Fidele wrote:

 I want to start learning D programming language it looks 
 interesting


Answering thread question:

It can be complicated, D has a lot of features and mastering it 
will take quite a lot of time.

Since D is statically typed compiled system programming language 
it is still will be harder to grasp than say Python.

The core language is pretty neat and shouldn't cause much 
trouble, by core here I mean basic templates, basic mixins, basic 
classes and operator overloading, version conditioning and such.

Ranges and the standard library approach to 
"Design-by-Introspection" will definitely require some time to 
get used to, so expect to dive into std sources a lot for real 
world examples.

Advanced templates is still not as hard as C++ though, and there 
is no some of the more quirks that C++ has.

Few things to avoid until you absolutely know what you are doing 
is  nogc and betterC.

There is also a "system" part in it that ultimately will require 
you to understand what is actually a executable file and what is 
a linker, knowing how to use debuggers, etc...


Finally, D is flexible enough to delay touching some of those 
features until you are ready, and unlike practically any other 
language it doesn't forces any philosophy or zen or whatever 
ideology on you.

Before you started though - note that D is not considered 
"enterprisey" enough language so don't expect your favorite 
JetBrains IDE or other fancy tooling, the debuggers are just 
minimally working, and generally any other ecosystem tools (if 
any) too.
This means you have to understand more about how these things 
works and this may add extra complexity and make you think the 
whole language is not there yet.
Mar 04
prev sibling next sibling parent thinkunix <thinkunix zoho.com> writes:
Fidele via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:

 I want to start learning D programming language it looks interesting


Get familiar with https://dlang.org/ web site, you'll use it a lot.
Do the Tour, https://tour.dlang.org/

Books, full list here:  https://wiki.dlang.org/Books
I would recommend starting with these.  I found them easy to read
and they just make sense.
* Learning D by Mike Parker and
* Programming in D by Ali Çehreli

I also highly recommend Mike Shah's video series available on youtube
and on his web site:
https://courses.mshah.io/courses/d-language-dlang-programming

The advantages of Mike Shah's site are:
* no youtube distractions
* you can track your progress
* it's FREE!

You can get started with just a text editor and one of the D compilers.

Lastly, as others mentioned, get on the D-Learn mailing list, or use
the forum https://forum.dlang.org/ instead of D-announce.
Lurk for a while.  Read and try some of the code snippets you see go by.
It will help you understand the language.

Welcome to D!
scot
Mar 05
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Doigt <labog outlook.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 March 2024 at 13:37:53 UTC, Fidele wrote:

 I want to start learning D programming language it looks 
 interesting


Depends what you mean by "beginner". If you've never programmed 
before and D is your first language, then the answer is a 
definite no.
Mar 11
parent reply Bastiaan Veelo <Bastiaan Veelo.net> writes:
On Monday, 11 March 2024 at 12:30:10 UTC, Doigt wrote:

 On Monday, 4 March 2024 at 13:37:53 UTC, Fidele wrote:

 I want to start learning D programming language it looks 
 interesting


 Depends what you mean by "beginner". If you've never programmed 
 before and D is your first language, then the answer is a 
 definite no.


Why definitely not?

https://youtu.be/V2YwTIIMEeU?si=j3cQzzN4jsUQrN9C&t=682

-- Bastiaan.
Mar 12
parent reply Mike Shah <mshah.475 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 14:03:30 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:

 On Monday, 11 March 2024 at 12:30:10 UTC, Doigt wrote:

 On Monday, 4 March 2024 at 13:37:53 UTC, Fidele wrote:

 I want to start learning D programming language it looks 
 interesting


 Depends what you mean by "beginner". If you've never 
 programmed before and D is your first language, then the 
 answer is a definite no.


 Why definitely not?

 https://youtu.be/V2YwTIIMEeU?si=j3cQzzN4jsUQrN9C&t=682

 -- Bastiaan.


I really think D would be a wonderful first language. 🙂 Fast 
feedback, no need to manage memory, and easy to use built-in data 
structures would make for a nice intro course.
Mar 12
parent reply matheus. <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 14:52:32 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:

 ...
 I really think D would be a wonderful first language. 🙂 Fast 
 feedback, no need to manage memory, and easy to use built-in 
 data structures would make for a nice intro course.


If you say that D would be a good language to learn in lieu 
C++/Rust I'd agree, but as a First Language neither one would be 
my choice.

Most here already program and know things, but as a first 
language forget, at least where and when I did college (Already 
knowing how to program), most people were lost with all the 
concepts of C++ for example.

Bitwise shifts like << >> and the same operators being used in 
cin/cout may be OK for most people already in programming and 
using shell, but for those learning was a hell.

Matheus.
Mar 12
next sibling parent reply Mike Shah <mshah.475 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 16:20:29 UTC, matheus. wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 14:52:32 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:

 ...
 I really think D would be a wonderful first language. 🙂 Fast 
 feedback, no need to manage memory, and easy to use built-in 
 data structures would make for a nice intro course.


 If you say that D would be a good language to learn in lieu 
 C++/Rust I'd agree, but as a First Language neither one would 
 be my choice.

 Most here already program and know things, but as a first 
 language forget, at least where and when I did college (Already 
 knowing how to program), most people were lost with all the 
 concepts of C++ for example.

 Bitwise shifts like << >> and the same operators being used in 
 cin/cout may be OK for most people already in programming and 
 using shell, but for those learning was a hell.

 Matheus.


I agree (and I've made my case from my DConf talk with some data) 
D is much more productive than C++ for students (especially in 
the scope of a quarter or semester long course).

I probably would recommend in the general case that someone who 
wants to try programming to start with Python or JavaScript -- 
purely because the start up cost is smaller, and the vast amount 
of packages let beginners do something interesting quickly.

That said, in a university curriculum (where students have 
multiple semesters), D could prove nice as an intro language as 
it has the ability to scale up in difficulty over time. I think D 
is friendly enough that it would not immediately turn away 
beginners from computer science programs (But ultimately Python 
probably wins for now in this category).

As a note, the 'which language is best for CS 1' debate has long 
been debated -- but at least in a school setting, I've found the 
quality/enthusiasm/encouragement of the teacher to be the most 
important aspect regardless of language choice.
Mar 12
parent reply Lance Bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 17:03:42 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:


 As a note, the 'which language is best for CS 1' debate has 
 long been debated -- but at least in a school setting, I've 
 found the quality/enthusiasm/encouragement of the teacher to be 
 the most important aspect regardless of language choice.


As someone that's been teaching beginners to program at a 
university for a long time (but not in a CS department) I've come 
to see the choice of language as largely unimportant. You have to 
decide what you want to teach them and then eliminate the 
languages that aren't suitable. D is one of many languages that 
would work with the right content. Other languages, like C++, add 
unnecessary overhead and thus should not be used.

It's often said "X is a complicated language" but that's the 
wrong way to look at it. You're teaching a set of programming 
concepts, not a language. The question is how well a particular 
language works for learning those concepts.
Mar 12
next sibling parent reply M.M. <matus email.cz> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 18:03:43 UTC, Lance Bachmeier wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 17:03:42 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:


 As a note, the 'which language is best for CS 1' debate has 
 long been debated -- but at least in a school setting, I've 
 found the quality/enthusiasm/encouragement of the teacher to 
 be the most important aspect regardless of language choice.


 As someone that's been teaching beginners to program at a 
 university for a long time (but not in a CS department) I've 
 come to see the choice of language as largely unimportant. You 
 have to decide what you want to teach them and then eliminate 
 the languages that aren't suitable. D is one of many languages 
 that would work with the right content. Other languages, like 
 C++, add unnecessary overhead and thus should not be used.

 It's often said "X is a complicated language" but that's the 
 wrong way to look at it. You're teaching a set of programming 
 concepts, not a language. The question is how well a particular 
 language works for learning those concepts.


I was always wondering about this debate on a suitable "first" 
programming language in a CS curriculum. I largely observe one 
dividing point: to start with a strongly-typed language or not. 
(After that, it probably does not matter so much which language 
is chosen; alas, it should be available on Windows, Linux, and 
Mac OS). Do you observe similar sentiment in the discussions in 
the university settings?
Mar 12
parent bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 19:07:25 UTC, M.M. wrote:


 I was always wondering about this debate on a suitable "first" 
 programming language in a CS curriculum. I largely observe one 
 dividing point: to start with a strongly-typed language or not. 
 (After that, it probably does not matter so much which language 
 is chosen; alas, it should be available on Windows, Linux, and 
 Mac OS). Do you observe similar sentiment in the discussions in 
 the university settings?


I'm not a CS person so I'll have to defer to others (their needs 
are very different). My grad students are doing more complicated 
programming for data analysis and simulation. I focus on 
recursion and using a functional programming approach, because 
that simplifies things so much for these types of problems. All I 
need is a language that supports that.
Mar 13
prev sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh qfbox.info> writes:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 06:03:43PM +0000, Lance Bachmeier via
Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 17:03:42 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:
 

 As a note, the 'which language is best for CS 1' debate has long
 been debated -- but at least in a school setting, I've found the
 quality/enthusiasm/encouragement of the teacher to be the most
 important aspect regardless of language choice.


 
 As someone that's been teaching beginners to program at a university
 for a long time (but not in a CS department) I've come to see the
 choice of language as largely unimportant. You have to decide what you
 want to teach them and then eliminate the languages that aren't
 suitable. D is one of many languages that would work with the right
 content. Other languages, like C++, add unnecessary overhead and thus
 should not be used.
 
 It's often said "X is a complicated language" but that's the wrong way
 to look at it. You're teaching a set of programming concepts, not a
 language.  The question is how well a particular language works for
 learning those concepts.


I don't know how CS programs are carried out these days, but back when I
was in university, the choice of language is largely irrelevant, because
the whole point of a programming course isn't to teach you a specific
language, but to teach you the *principles* that underlie programming in
general. There are really only a small handful of different paradigms
that you need to learn; once you learned the principles behind them,
they can be applied to any language out there.  You wouldn't need anyone
to teach you a new language then; you could just learn it yourself by
applying these same principles.

The rest, as they say, is just details. ;-)


T

-- 
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and
Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- Anonymous
Mar 12
parent Andrea Fontana <nospam example.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 19:12:03 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I don't know how CS programs are carried out these days, but 
 back when I was in university, the choice of language is 
 largely irrelevant, because the whole point of a programming 
 course isn't to teach you a specific language, but to teach you 
 the *principles* that underlie programming in general. There 
 are really only a small handful of different paradigms that you 
 need to learn; once you learned the principles behind them, 
 they can be applied to any language out there.  You wouldn't 
 need anyone to teach you a new language then; you could just 
 learn it yourself by applying these same principles.

 The rest, as they say, is just details. ;-)


 T


I agree.

Andrea
Mar 12
prev sibling parent reply Meta <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 16:20:29 UTC, matheus. wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 14:52:32 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:

 ...
 I really think D would be a wonderful first language. 🙂 Fast 
 feedback, no need to manage memory, and easy to use built-in 
 data structures would make for a nice intro course.


 If you say that D would be a good language to learn in lieu 
 C++/Rust I'd agree, but as a First Language neither one would 
 be my choice.

 Most here already program and know things, but as a first 
 language forget, at least where and when I did college (Already 
 knowing how to program), most people were lost with all the 
 concepts of C++ for example.

 Bitwise shifts like << >> and the same operators being used in 
 cin/cout may be OK for most people already in programming and 
 using shell, but for those learning was a hell.

 Matheus.


I think it really depends on the person. My first language was 
C++, which was absolute hell to learn as a complete beginner to 
programming, but I really wanted to learn a language with 
low-level capabilities that could also do gamedev. Learning C++ 
as my first language was incredibly difficult, but it also made 
the programming parts of my CS degree a breeze - especially 
courses like machine level programming. Nobody else in the class 
even understood what a pointer was for the first couple weeks.
Mar 12
next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh qfbox.info> writes:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 08:40:49PM +0000, Meta via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
[...]

 I think it really depends on the person. My first language was C++, which
 was absolute hell to learn as a complete beginner to programming, but I
 really wanted to learn a language with low-level capabilities that could
 also do gamedev. Learning C++ as my first language was incredibly difficult,
 but it also made the programming parts of my CS degree a breeze - especially
 courses like machine level programming. Nobody else in the class even
 understood what a pointer was for the first couple weeks.


	People who are more than casually interested in computers should
	have at least some idea of what the underlying hardware is like.
	Otherwise the programs they write will be pretty weird.
	-- D. Knuth

;-)


T

-- 
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Mar 12
prev sibling parent reply Mike Shah <mshah.475 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 20:40:49 UTC, Meta wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 16:20:29 UTC, matheus. wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 14:52:32 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:

 ...
 I really think D would be a wonderful first language. 🙂 Fast 
 feedback, no need to manage memory, and easy to use built-in 
 data structures would make for a nice intro course.


 If you say that D would be a good language to learn in lieu 
 C++/Rust I'd agree, but as a First Language neither one would 
 be my choice.

 Most here already program and know things, but as a first 
 language forget, at least where and when I did college 
 (Already knowing how to program), most people were lost with 
 all the concepts of C++ for example.

 Bitwise shifts like << >> and the same operators being used in 
 cin/cout may be OK for most people already in programming and 
 using shell, but for those learning was a hell.

 Matheus.


 I think it really depends on the person. My first language was 
 C++, which was absolute hell to learn as a complete beginner to 
 programming, but I really wanted to learn a language with 
 low-level capabilities that could also do gamedev. Learning C++ 
 as my first language was incredibly difficult, but it also made 
 the programming parts of my CS degree a breeze - especially 
 courses like machine level programming. Nobody else in the 
 class even understood what a pointer was for the first couple 
 weeks.


I've been at institutions where C++ is the first language and for 
most folks who were sure they wanted to do programming it was a 
fine enough language (when taught with care) to teach. In fact, 
it benefited me (and other instructors) quite a bit when I saw 
those students later and taught them computer graphics (usually 
taught in C++ to prepare them for job market).

For folks who were not sure if they wanted to study computer 
science, unfortunately they were scared away as they thought this 
was the only path for programming (i.e. C++, assembly, etc.). For 
this reason, a language that is gentler (e.g. Python, JavaScript, 
or I also suspect a large subset of D) would all have been better 
choices. More universities these days are offering courses with 
gentler options (e.g. Programming for non-majors) which usually 
take this approach to more slowly ramp students up -- which I 
think is a good thing to have these offerings. And then later on 
in the program, these students can learn the good stuff (i.e. 
systems, compilers, graphics, etc. :) )
Mar 12
parent M.M. <matus email.cz> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 22:27:11 UTC, Mike Shah wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 20:40:49 UTC, Meta wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 March 2024 at 16:20:29 UTC, matheus. wrote:

 [...]


 I think it really depends on the person. My first language was 
 C++, which was absolute hell to learn as a complete beginner 
 to programming, but I really wanted to learn a language with 
 low-level capabilities that could also do gamedev. Learning 
 C++ as my first language was incredibly difficult, but it also 
 made the programming parts of my CS degree a breeze - 
 especially courses like machine level programming. Nobody else 
 in the class even understood what a pointer was for the first 
 couple weeks.


 I've been at institutions where C++ is the first language and 
 for most folks who were sure they wanted to do programming it 
 was a fine enough language (when taught with care) to teach. In 
 fact, it benefited me (and other instructors) quite a bit when 
 I saw those students later and taught them computer graphics 
 (usually taught in C++ to prepare them for job market).

 For folks who were not sure if they wanted to study computer 
 science, unfortunately they were scared away as they thought 
 this was the only path for programming (i.e. C++, assembly, 
 etc.). For this reason, a language that is gentler (e.g. 
 Python, JavaScript, or I also suspect a large subset of D) 
 would all have been better choices. More universities these 
 days are offering courses with gentler options (e.g. 
 Programming for non-majors) which usually take this approach to 
 more slowly ramp students up -- which I think is a good thing 
 to have these offerings. And then later on in the program, 
 these students can learn the good stuff (i.e. systems, 
 compilers, graphics, etc. :) )


I understand that outside of CS, something like Python is a fine 
choice, hiding many low-level details. But within a 
CS-curriculum, one needs to come beyond basics-of-programming to 
something like efficient algorithm-design-and-data-structures; 
isn't a typed language better here? (Like the quote of Knuth 
says: if you do not understand the hardware behind, your programs 
will look weird. I have observed this a lot with current 
data-science students, which use a map/dictionary for everything, 
largely ignoring the existence of arrays).
Mar 13
prev sibling next sibling parent Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Monday, 4 March 2024 at 13:37:53 UTC, Fidele wrote:

 I want to start learning D programming language it looks 
 interesting


The free digital book from Ali, is written to fit your need:

https://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html
Mar 13
prev sibling next sibling parent Quirin Schroll <qs.il.paperinik gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 March 2024 at 13:37:53 UTC, Fidele wrote:

 Is D programming friendly for beginners?


Only if you use ` safe` on your `main` function and essentially 
everywhere except templates (those infer ` safe` and you should 
let them do that). ` system` is an expert tool, unfortunately, 
it’s the default. Unless you use ` safe`, it is actually easy to 
accidentally corrupt memory. For short, ` safe` disallows any 
operation that could introduce undefined behavior, in particular 
memory corruption.

There are so-called preview switches on the compiler. Those 
enable latest features or bugfixes that are incompatible with the 
old langue state. If a preview feature is deemed ready for 
production, it’ll become active by default. IMO, the following 
preview switches should be enabled:
* `-preview=dip1000` This allows more operations in ` safe` code, 
but error messages can become more cryptic. E.g., pre-DIP1000, 
taking the address of a local variable was illegal and with 
DIP1000, it’s allowed under certain circumstances, but when it’s 
not okay, the error message isn’t simply “you can’t do that”. It 
will become the default at some point, so it might be worth to 
learn its semantics from the beginning.
* `-preview=dip1008` Allows allocating `Error` objects in ` nogc` 
code. Makes ` nogc` code more useful.
* `-preview=fieldwise` Must have. Fixes auto-generated 
comparisons for structs.
* `-preview=fixAliasThis` Fixes lookup of `alias this` constructs.
* `-preview=nosharedaccess` Must have. Fixes `shared`, which can 
be unsafe otherwise.
* `-preview=in` Makes the parameter storage class `in` actually 
useful. Note: This is dangerous without ` safe`. Under the 
preview switch, `in` makes strong guarantees, but without 
` safe`, it is assumed, but not checked, if the guarantees truly 
hold. With ` safe`, however, they are checked and it’s fool-proof.
* `-preview=inclusiveincontracts` Must have. Fixes function 
contracts.
* `-preview=fixImmutableConv` Must have. Fixes various conversion 
issues in the type system.

Not actively recommended, but not actively harmful either:
* `-preview=bitfields` Unclear if it’s going to stay.
* `-preview=systemVariables` Primarily relevant if you write 
` system` code. First learn the language. (No harm if enabled.)

Recommended to stay away from:
* `-preview=rvaluerefparam` Don’t use it. It’s never going to be 
the default and likely will be removed in the future in favor of 
something else.

The reason I’m advocating preview switches is because as a 
learner, you’re likely not writing production code that’s going 
to stay, but throwaway code for the purpose of you gaining 
knowledge of the language.
Jul 23
prev sibling parent reply Matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
I work at home, but once I was at the office and I saw someone 
literally copying a SO answer direct to the project, and many 
times I saw code there were literally copied as is, I could tell 
because the way it was written, language etc. One of the cases 
was a LIB in Oracle to read JSON, it came with all the flaws you 
would expected, and the limitation of 32767 characters.

The other day I saw a video of C++ (I think it was from Jason 
Tyler or a name like that), showing some code generated by AI, 
and he said it was very clever.

Now I wonder about the future in this area... I mean for some 
will be a matter of copying from SO or AI. =]

Matheus.
Jul 24
next sibling parent Abdulhaq <alynch4048 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2024 at 15:02:04 UTC, Matheus wrote:

 I work at home, but once I was at the office and I saw someone 
 literally copying a SO answer direct to the project, and many 
 times I saw code there were literally copied as is, I could 
 tell because the way it was written, language etc. One of the 
 cases was a LIB in Oracle to read JSON, it came with all the 
 flaws you would expected, and the limitation of 32767 
 characters.

 The other day I saw a video of C++ (I think it was from Jason 
 Tyler or a name like that), showing some code generated by AI, 
 and he said it was very clever.

 Now I wonder about the future in this area... I mean for some 
 will be a matter of copying from SO or AI. =]

 Matheus.


AI will generate answers and then post them on the internet. Then 
AI will read the answers it sees on the internet, to reprogram 
itself.

AI will eat itself.
Jul 24
prev sibling parent aberba <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2024 at 15:02:04 UTC, Matheus wrote:

 I work at home, but once I was at the office and I saw someone 
 literally copying a SO answer direct to the project, and many 
 times I saw code there were literally copied as is, I could 
 tell because the way it was written, language etc. One of the 
 cases was a LIB in Oracle to read JSON, it came with all the 
 flaws you would expected, and the limitation of 32767 
 characters.

 The other day I saw a video of C++ (I think it was from Jason 
 Tyler or a name like that), showing some code generated by AI, 
 and he said it was very clever.

 Now I wonder about the future in this area... I mean for some 
 will be a matter of copying from SO or AI. =]

 Matheus.


I was stubborn about adopting AI is my workflow but I tried 
recently and I'm a bit productive overall. Once you have a good 
experience with a language and understanding the domain, AI is a 
helpful assistant in research and prototyping code that might 
eventually be refined for production.

It important however to know when you the suggestions are wrong, 
hence they need to gain some experience.

You should try. I recently tried a little D coding using chatgpt, 
wasn't bad considering there's not a lot of D code out there. 
It's very very good with JavaScript though.

I see AI being a very good tool for learning, research and 
prototyping.
Jul 25