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digitalmars.D.announce - Entice Designer 0.8.2 release

reply "Chris Miller" <chris dprogramming.com> writes:
Entice Designer is moving towards becoming an IDE, as well as a GUI  
builder, in version 0.8.2. Now has multiple file management with file list  
and simple compile command. Note that this is just the beginning; expect  
more to follow!

For a list of features, screenshots and installer and zip downloads, visit  
http://www.dprogramming.com/entice.php

Major changes in version 0.8.2:
* Added ability to open multiple files.
* Plugin support with SDK and examples (early C interface).
* Toolbox disappears when not needed; increases code area.
* Added option to use spaces instead of tab characters for indentation.
* Added simplistic project and compile functionality.
* Bugs fixed.

http://www.dprogramming.com/entice.php


Notes:

The compile command is just an early placeholder, actually implemented as  
a plugin. Expect this feature to be replaced and improved. This plugin's  
source is also available.

The plugin interface is quite unfriendly because it is an early,  
unfinished design with C compatibility in mind. There will probably be a  
nice D wrapper for it in the future. There is at least some documentation  
for it and examples.

I have actually switched to Entice as my primary D editor now! This should  
ensure stability and force me to adhere to the quality and feature set I  
expect and desire from an editor.

As always, I'm open to suggestions. Feel free to contact me here, by  
e-mail, forum or IRC.

Also, a minor DFL update was released yesterday.

- Chris
Apr 20 2007
next sibling parent Manfred Nowak <svv1999 hotmail.com> writes:
Chris Miller wrote


 Entice Designer is moving towards becoming an IDE, as well as a GUI  
 builder


Great. I like your style.

-manfred
Apr 20 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent freeagle <dalibor.free gmail.com> writes:
I wasnt following DFL's nor Entice's development much, but I have to say 
it looks very good promissing. Keep up the good work! And Linux support 
would be really nice.... ;)

freeagle
Apr 21 2007
prev sibling parent reply Charlie <charlie.fats gmail.com> writes:
DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
work.  I look forward to using it in an upcoming commercial project!

( Also do you have plans to make the property control on the right side 
of Entice a component ? )

Thanks,
Charlie

Chris Miller wrote:

 Entice Designer is moving towards becoming an IDE, as well as a GUI 
 builder, in version 0.8.2. Now has multiple file management with file 
 list and simple compile command. Note that this is just the beginning; 
 expect more to follow!
 
 For a list of features, screenshots and installer and zip downloads, 
 visit http://www.dprogramming.com/entice.php
 
 Major changes in version 0.8.2:
 * Added ability to open multiple files.
 * Plugin support with SDK and examples (early C interface).
 * Toolbox disappears when not needed; increases code area.
 * Added option to use spaces instead of tab characters for indentation.
 * Added simplistic project and compile functionality.
 * Bugs fixed.
 
 http://www.dprogramming.com/entice.php
 
 
 Notes:
 
 The compile command is just an early placeholder, actually implemented 
 as a plugin. Expect this feature to be replaced and improved. This 
 plugin's source is also available.
 
 The plugin interface is quite unfriendly because it is an early, 
 unfinished design with C compatibility in mind. There will probably be a 
 nice D wrapper for it in the future. There is at least some 
 documentation for it and examples.
 
 I have actually switched to Entice as my primary D editor now! This 
 should ensure stability and force me to adhere to the quality and 
 feature set I expect and desire from an editor.
 
 As always, I'm open to suggestions. Feel free to contact me here, by 
 e-mail, forum or IRC.
 
 Also, a minor DFL update was released yesterday.
 
 - Chris
Apr 22 2007
parent reply freeagle <dalibor.free gmail.com> writes:
Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, 
and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much 
attention.

freeagle
Apr 22 2007
next sibling parent reply Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 
 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, 
 and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much 
 attention.
 
 freeagle


Well, it does have a dsource forum 
(http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=39), but lack of exposure 
  might be part of its under-appreciation.

Also, I can't think of any other big projects that use DFL (other than 
Entice, of course) to add to its buzz. DWT 
(http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt) has Poseidon 
(http://www.dsource.org/projects/poseidon) and rulesPlayer 
(http://www.dsource.org/projects/rulesplayer). And now Tioport 
(http://www.dsource.org/projects/tioport) is even been used to 
automatically create a DWT port. And Icequake uses DWT, too 
(http://iqk.sourceforge.net/).

But I agree that DFL is really cool. I haven't used DWT any yet (even 
though it's been in development for years, I haven't been in the mood to 
try it yet), but I have used DFL some and Entice is especially awesome!

If it were cross-platform, we might be able to get Walter is endorse it 
as the official GUI instead of DWT. ;)

-- 
jcc7
Apr 22 2007
next sibling parent Lectus <lectus lectus.com> writes:
DFL is the best GUI toolkit for D.
And Entice is becoming a full featured IDE for D.
DFL/Entice are easy and powerful.
Do I need to say more?
If DFL becomes multi-platform it really should be the default GUI toolkit for D.

Thank you miller[] for your nice work!
The D community is happy to have a nice coder as you.
Apr 22 2007
prev sibling parent Clay Smith <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, 
 and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive 
 much attention.

 freeagle


 
 Well, it does have a dsource forum 
 (http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=39), but lack of exposure 
  might be part of its under-appreciation.
 
 Also, I can't think of any other big projects that use DFL (other than 
 Entice, of course) to add to its buzz. DWT 
 (http://www.dsource.org/projects/dwt) has Poseidon 
 (http://www.dsource.org/projects/poseidon) and rulesPlayer 
 (http://www.dsource.org/projects/rulesplayer). And now Tioport 
 (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tioport) is even been used to 
 automatically create a DWT port. And Icequake uses DWT, too 
 (http://iqk.sourceforge.net/).
 
 But I agree that DFL is really cool. I haven't used DWT any yet (even 
 though it's been in development for years, I haven't been in the mood to 
 try it yet), but I have used DFL some and Entice is especially awesome!
 
 If it were cross-platform, we might be able to get Walter is endorse it 
 as the official GUI instead of DWT. ;)
 


I would like to see it cross platform, if possible. I think that would 
add a lot of new users to that project.

~ Clay
Apr 22 2007
prev sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 
 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, 
 and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much 
 attention.


It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's 
Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a 
Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my 
own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days 
with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the 
ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really 
gave DFL a second look.

--bb
Apr 22 2007
next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, 
 and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive 
 much attention.


 
 It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's 
 Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a 
 Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my 
 own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days 
 with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the 
 ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really 
 gave DFL a second look.
 
 --bb


Wait, is DFL closed source?  I couldn't find the source anywhere.  That 
might be another reason for lack of popularity.

--bb
Apr 22 2007
parent Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece
 of work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at
 www.dprogramming.com. I'm not saying there's anything bad about it,
 but I think that first, and probably the last, stop for any beginning
 D programmer is www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming
 don't receive much attention.


 It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's
 Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm
 a Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value
 my own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these
 days with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value
 the ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never
 really gave DFL a second look.

 --bb


 
 Wait, is DFL closed source?  I couldn't find the source anywhere.  That
 might be another reason for lack of popularity.
 
 --bb


DFL is most definitely open source.  I know, because I've modified it a
few times.

	-- Daniel

-- 
int getRandomNumber()
{
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
}

http://xkcd.com/

v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D
i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/
Apr 22 2007
prev sibling parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
Are even programmers against vista?
Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
can't be shown in general commercials, right?

No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I get 
my new computer.

http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry
DirectX 10 , software sound approach

I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of it 
to switch?


"Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> wrote in message 
news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1 digitalmars.com...

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and 
 probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much 
 attention.


 It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's 
 Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a 
 Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my 
 own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days 
 with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the 
 ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really 
 gave DFL a second look.

 --bb
Apr 23 2007
next sibling parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?
 
 No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I get 
 my new computer.
 
 http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry
 DirectX 10 , software sound approach
 
 I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of it 
 to switch?
 
 
 "Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> wrote in message 
 news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1 digitalmars.com...

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and 
 probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much 
 attention.


 It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's 
 Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a 
 Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my 
 own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days 
 with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the 
 ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really 
 gave DFL a second look.

 --bb 




Warning: rant follows.
Summary: Vista sucks.

I don't know about Bill, but I'm never going to be installing Vista for
a lot of reasons.

First of all is the DRM crap they've loaded the OS with.  MS has been
pushing DRM more and more over the last few years, but this is going too
far.  I absolutely refuse to support anything designed specifically to
take away control over my own machine (also a reason why I will never
buy a Mac so long as they have TPM chips in them).  See
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

Let's also not forget that their shiny new DRM garbage also means all
the cool stuff my Creative sound card does is worthless.

Second is the fact that Vista is more bloated than Mr. Creosote[1] from
The Meaning of Life.  Even if you turn off all the shiny flashy
bling-bling, it still sucks down resources for them.  I neither want nor
need all this garbage; I suffer more than enough aggravation from XP's
"features" to want to have to deal with even more crap.

Small example: whenever a system-tray "bubble" pops up, it locks the
task bar in the shown position, and you can't get it to go away until
you actually click on the icon that showed the bubble.  I mean, what was
the point of putting a close button on the bubble if it's going to
pester you until you click on it anyway?!

Also, as a programmer, I'm seriously pissed off with the new stuff in
Vista.  I mean, first they bring out .NET with SWForms, then almost
immediately deprecate it for WPF.  How long before they bring out
something else new that I need to re-learn?  Bugger it; I'm sticking to
cross platform toolkits from now on, no exceptions.

Finally is the fact that anything Vista can do, Linux can already do,
and do it better.  I mean, the marketing push for Vista has been "The
Wow starts Now": have you ever seen Beryl?  That thing completely blows
Vista and OSX out of the water in terms of how shiny it is.

Basically, I'm just completely fed up with Microsoft both as a user and
as a developer.  Both myself and my parents been paying the MS tax and
fighting Windows for over a decade now, and we're not playing their game
any more.  Screw 'em.

	-- Daniel

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Creosote

-- 
int getRandomNumber()
{
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
}

http://xkcd.com/

v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D
i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/
Apr 23 2007
next sibling parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
I'm not sure this is the best place, my fault...

And I was thinking about writing a big reply, but as this is not the place 
:D

DRM doesn't bother me really, I won't use it unless I really need to buy 
media which uses it. (I'll even pay for it, I don't care about the extra 
100?euro)
I need Photoshop CS3, stopping me to talk like I know anything about Linux 
:D (except that its colour management isn't all that)

I didn't hear anything about drm being the cause of crappy creative drivers, 
I thought it was this:
http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html

DirectX 10 is really great and it really seems to be made for the hardware 
iso the other way around.
I think http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=146749 gives really 
good examples of the same new approach.
(Its an interesting talk in itself although being a tad long ;)
These small differences are really hard to see and extremely hard to 
market...
Like HyperThreading: Its not always faster and even slower at times, but 
talking about system responsiveness it beats a single core without a doubt.

I didn't know where to move this discussion. But I would like to know the 
ideas of those who know more than me...
The choice of OS is important enough.


"Daniel Keep" <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:f0k65t$2evs$1 digitalmars.com...

 Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?

 No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I 
 get
 my new computer.

 http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry
 DirectX 10 , software sound approach

 I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of 
 it
 to switch?


 "Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> wrote in message
 news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1 digitalmars.com...

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of
 work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com.
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, 
 and
 probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much
 attention.


 It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's
 Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a
 Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my
 own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days
 with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the
 ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really
 gave DFL a second look.

 --bb




 Warning: rant follows.
 Summary: Vista sucks.

 I don't know about Bill, but I'm never going to be installing Vista for
 a lot of reasons.

 First of all is the DRM crap they've loaded the OS with.  MS has been
 pushing DRM more and more over the last few years, but this is going too
 far.  I absolutely refuse to support anything designed specifically to
 take away control over my own machine (also a reason why I will never
 buy a Mac so long as they have TPM chips in them).  See
 http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

 Let's also not forget that their shiny new DRM garbage also means all
 the cool stuff my Creative sound card does is worthless.

 Second is the fact that Vista is more bloated than Mr. Creosote[1] from
 The Meaning of Life.  Even if you turn off all the shiny flashy
 bling-bling, it still sucks down resources for them.  I neither want nor
 need all this garbage; I suffer more than enough aggravation from XP's
 "features" to want to have to deal with even more crap.

 Small example: whenever a system-tray "bubble" pops up, it locks the
 task bar in the shown position, and you can't get it to go away until
 you actually click on the icon that showed the bubble.  I mean, what was
 the point of putting a close button on the bubble if it's going to
 pester you until you click on it anyway?!

 Also, as a programmer, I'm seriously pissed off with the new stuff in
 Vista.  I mean, first they bring out .NET with SWForms, then almost
 immediately deprecate it for WPF.  How long before they bring out
 something else new that I need to re-learn?  Bugger it; I'm sticking to
 cross platform toolkits from now on, no exceptions.

 Finally is the fact that anything Vista can do, Linux can already do,
 and do it better.  I mean, the marketing push for Vista has been "The
 Wow starts Now": have you ever seen Beryl?  That thing completely blows
 Vista and OSX out of the water in terms of how shiny it is.

 Basically, I'm just completely fed up with Microsoft both as a user and
 as a developer.  Both myself and my parents been paying the MS tax and
 fighting Windows for over a decade now, and we're not playing their game
 any more.  Screw 'em.

 -- Daniel

 [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Creosote

 -- 
 int getRandomNumber()
 {
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
 }

 http://xkcd.com/

 v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D
 i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/
Apr 23 2007
parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 I didn't hear anything about drm being the cause of crappy creative drivers, 
 I thought it was this:
 http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html


Basically, MS changed the whole audio stack over to software-only and
just uses the soundcard as a DAC *because* of the DRM stuff.  DRM isn't
the technical reason why soundcard's got demoted, but it *is* the
motivation.


 DirectX 10 is really great and it really seems to be made for the hardware 
 iso the other way around.
 I think http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=146749 gives really 
 good examples of the same new approach.
 (Its an interesting talk in itself although being a tad long ;)
 These small differences are really hard to see and extremely hard to 
 market...
 Like HyperThreading: Its not always faster and even slower at times, but 
 talking about system responsiveness it beats a single core without a doubt.


Yeah, but if I write for DX10, it runs on... Vista.  Only.  Not even XP.
  When I found out that Alan Wake was Vista only, I was *seriously*
pissed off.  I was *really* looking forward to that after Max Payne 1
and 2.  I'm not going to forgive Microsoft for that one easily.

As for development, I think I'll just wait for OpenGL 3.0 (I think it's
3.0) which will run on pretty much everything, and IIRC be pretty damn
close to DX10 anyway.  And anything that doesn't run OpenGL will
probably run ES :P


 I didn't know where to move this discussion. But I would like to know the 
 ideas of those who know more than me...
 The choice of OS is important enough.


Yeah; threads on these NGs tend to get off track sometimes.  Maybe we
should just make a digitalmars.D.offtopic group :P

	-- Daniel

-- 
int getRandomNumber()
{
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
}

http://xkcd.com/

v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D
i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/
Apr 23 2007
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+spam com.gmail> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 
 Saaa wrote:

 I didn't hear anything about drm being the cause of crappy creative drivers, 
 I thought it was this:
 http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html


 
 Basically, MS changed the whole audio stack over to software-only and
 just uses the soundcard as a DAC *because* of the DRM stuff.  DRM isn't
 the technical reason why soundcard's got demoted, but it *is* the
 motivation.
 

 DirectX 10 is really great and it really seems to be made for the hardware 
 iso the other way around.
 I think http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=146749 gives really 
 good examples of the same new approach.
 (Its an interesting talk in itself although being a tad long ;)
 These small differences are really hard to see and extremely hard to 
 market...
 Like HyperThreading: Its not always faster and even slower at times, but 
 talking about system responsiveness it beats a single core without a doubt.


 
 Yeah, but if I write for DX10, it runs on... Vista.  Only.  Not even XP.
   When I found out that Alan Wake was Vista only, I was *seriously*
 pissed off.  I was *really* looking forward to that after Max Payne 1
 and 2.  I'm not going to forgive Microsoft for that one easily.
 
 As for development, I think I'll just wait for OpenGL 3.0 (I think it's
 3.0) which will run on pretty much everything, and IIRC be pretty damn
 close to DX10 anyway.  And anything that doesn't run OpenGL will
 probably run ES :P
 

 I didn't know where to move this discussion. But I would like to know the 
 ideas of those who know more than me...
 The choice of OS is important enough.


 
 Yeah; threads on these NGs tend to get off track sometimes.  Maybe we
 should just make a digitalmars.D.offtopic group :P
 
 	-- Daniel
 


What?? Say it ain't so :(
The Max Payne series were (are!) awesome games!

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
Apr 24 2007
parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Daniel Keep wrote:

 ...
 Yeah, but if I write for DX10, it runs on... Vista.  Only.  Not even XP.
   When I found out that Alan Wake was Vista only, I was *seriously*
 pissed off.  I was *really* looking forward to that after Max Payne 1
 and 2.  I'm not going to forgive Microsoft for that one easily.
 ...


 
 What?? Say it ain't so :(
 The Max Payne series were (are!) awesome games!


It's so.  I feel your pain, believe me.

	-- Daniel

-- 
int getRandomNumber()
{
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
}

http://xkcd.com/

v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D
i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/
Apr 24 2007
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+spam com.gmail> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Daniel Keep wrote:

 ...
 Yeah, but if I write for DX10, it runs on... Vista.  Only.  Not even XP.
   When I found out that Alan Wake was Vista only, I was *seriously*
 pissed off.  I was *really* looking forward to that after Max Payne 1
 and 2.  I'm not going to forgive Microsoft for that one easily.
 ...


 What?? Say it ain't so :(
 The Max Payne series were (are!) awesome games!


 
 It's so.  I feel your pain, believe me.
 
 	-- Daniel
 


And no amount of painkillers can disable it. xD

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
Apr 25 2007
parent "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
A few posts down there might be an answer :D
Apr 25 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 
 Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?

 No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I get 
 my new computer.

 http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry
 DirectX 10 , software sound approach

 I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of it 
 to switch?


 "Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> wrote in message 
 news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1 digitalmars.com...

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and 
 probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much 
 attention.


 It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's 
 Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a 
 Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my 
 own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days 
 with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the 
 ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really 
 gave DFL a second look.

 --bb 




 
 Warning: rant follows.
 Summary: Vista sucks.
 
 I don't know about Bill, but I'm never going to be installing Vista for
 a lot of reasons.


I'm not nearly as opposed to Vista as you seem to be, but I will say I 
run XP with the "Classic Theme" because I'm not really into glitzy title 
bars sucking up all my resources and draining my battery life.

I don't know much about the DRM stuff in Vista, but all the buzz is that 
it's terrible and going to eat your babies.  I don't know about that, 
but it's pretty clear that at best it does *nothing* to make my 
experience as a user better.

But the thing that really pissed me off about Vista was their 
announcement early on that OpenGL was going to be a second class 
citizen.  Apparently it's been fixed due to the *vehement* complaints 
from users and vendors alike.  But that's the kind of crap Microsoft is 
always trying to pull.  They were telling everyone "So sorry, but it's 
technically impossible for OpenGL to work the way it does in XP.  Please 
use DX10 from now on." Apparently it wasn't as impossible as they 
claimed, and I'm still wary.

--bb
Apr 23 2007
parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
 But the thing that really pissed me off about Vista was their announcement 
 early on that OpenGL was going to be a second class citizen.  Apparently 
 it's been fixed due to the *vehement* complaints from users and vendors 
 alike.  But that's the kind of crap Microsoft is always trying to pull. 
 They were telling everyone "So sorry, but it's technically impossible for 
 OpenGL to work the way it does in XP.  Please use DX10 from now on." 
 Apparently it wasn't as impossible as they claimed, and I'm still wary.


This isn't really true, it went like this:

Microsoft says it will implement it ui in dx10, thus making it impossible to 
directly support OpenGL in a window.
Media hears about this and claims microsoft will drop OpenGL support.
OpenGL would be supported like wine handles dx  from the beginning: Its not 
an emulator :D
So yes it is technically impossible to let OpenGl work in a window like in 
xp.
Apr 24 2007
parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 But the thing that really pissed me off about Vista was their announcement 
 early on that OpenGL was going to be a second class citizen.  Apparently 
 it's been fixed due to the *vehement* complaints from users and vendors 
 alike.  But that's the kind of crap Microsoft is always trying to pull. 
 They were telling everyone "So sorry, but it's technically impossible for 
 OpenGL to work the way it does in XP.  Please use DX10 from now on." 
 Apparently it wasn't as impossible as they claimed, and I'm still wary.


 
 This isn't really true, it went like this:
 
 Microsoft says it will implement it ui in dx10, thus making it impossible to 
 directly support OpenGL in a window.
 Media hears about this and claims microsoft will drop OpenGL support.
 OpenGL would be supported like wine handles dx  from the beginning: Its not 
 an emulator :D
 So yes it is technically impossible to let OpenGl work in a window like in 
 xp. 


Except from what I understand, ultimately they got it so it _does_ work 
in a window just like it does in XP:

Found this from a quick search:
http://blogs.msdn.com/winperf/archive/2007/04/04/opengl-and-windows-vista.aspx
"""
Another thing that has left a lot of people confused has been around 
OpenGL applications and how they work with the new desktop composition 
system, called DWM. DWM is implemented using Direct3D 9, and as such it 
was originally thought that OpenGL applications could not interoperate 
with DWM and DWM would need to shut down in the presence of an OpenGL 
application. This is not the case. Windows Vista provides a mechanism 
for hardware vendors to use to integrate an OpenGL application with DWM, 
which acts in the exact same manner as D3D9 and GDI integration with DWM 
via shared surfaces (a new feature of WDDM).
"""

So in the end it sounds like all's right with the world.  Except this 
lingering bad taste in my mouth.  Even if they didn't do it this time, 
it shows that Microsoft is willing to make OpenGL (and by extension any 
not-invented-here API) a 2nd class citizen at the drop of a hat.

--bb
Apr 24 2007
parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
 Except from what I understand, ultimately they got it so it _does_ work in 
 a window just like it does in XP:

 Found this from a quick search:
 http://blogs.msdn.com/winperf/archive/2007/04/04/opengl-and-windows-vista.aspx
 """
 Another thing that has left a lot of people confused has been around 
 OpenGL applications and how they work with the new desktop composition 
 system, called DWM. DWM is implemented using Direct3D 9, and as such it 
 was originally thought that OpenGL applications could not interoperate 
 with DWM and DWM would need to shut down in the presence of an OpenGL 
 application. This is not the case. Windows Vista provides a mechanism for 
 hardware vendors to use to integrate an OpenGL application with DWM, which 
 acts in the exact same manner as D3D9 and GDI integration with DWM via 
 shared surfaces (a new feature of WDDM).
 """

 So in the end it sounds like all's right with the world.  Except this 
 lingering bad taste in my mouth.  Even if they didn't do it this time, it 
 shows that Microsoft is willing to make OpenGL (and by extension any 
 not-invented-here API) a 2nd class citizen at the drop of a hat.

 --bb


That it lingers a bitter taste in your mouth is a good example of how 
microsoft is looked at :)
How does 'making everything work nicely even though they didn't have to' 
make you think they were willing to make OpenGL a 2th class citizen?
The whole confusion started when microsoft announced the use of dx10 for the 
ui and people expecting they would probably drop OpenGL as this seemed the 
easiest option for microsoft.
You can't expect them to use OpenGL as obviously microsoft thinks dx10 is 
best..
And in the end it still doesn't work like in XP: it is like wine does dx: 
translating all calls.
Apr 24 2007
next sibling parent Don Clugston <dac nospam.com.au> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 Except from what I understand, ultimately they got it so it _does_ work in 
 a window just like it does in XP:

 Found this from a quick search:
 http://blogs.msdn.com/winperf/archive/2007/04/04/opengl-and-windows-vista.aspx
 """
 Another thing that has left a lot of people confused has been around 
 OpenGL applications and how they work with the new desktop composition 
 system, called DWM. DWM is implemented using Direct3D 9, and as such it 
 was originally thought that OpenGL applications could not interoperate 
 with DWM and DWM would need to shut down in the presence of an OpenGL 
 application. This is not the case. Windows Vista provides a mechanism for 
 hardware vendors to use to integrate an OpenGL application with DWM, which 
 acts in the exact same manner as D3D9 and GDI integration with DWM via 
 shared surfaces (a new feature of WDDM).
 """

 So in the end it sounds like all's right with the world.  Except this 
 lingering bad taste in my mouth.  Even if they didn't do it this time, it 
 shows that Microsoft is willing to make OpenGL (and by extension any 
 not-invented-here API) a 2nd class citizen at the drop of a hat.

 --bb


 
 That it lingers a bitter taste in your mouth is a good example of how 
 microsoft is looked at :)
 How does 'making everything work nicely even though they didn't have to' 
 make you think they were willing to make OpenGL a 2th class citizen?


I think exactly because "they didn't have to". Their OS monopoly gives 
them enormous power -- why *should* they make everything work nicely? 
OpenGL has one of the biggest lobby groups of anything which could be 
affected.
See how they almost disabled support for 80-bit floating point in Win64; 
it's only because of Walter that it stayed. They were ready to deny 
access to the hardware.
Are there any similar-sized monopolies of 'essential services' with so 
much freedom? (Imagine if there were rumours that your electricity 
supplier was considering moving to 68Hz. 10% of all electrical products 
would stop working!) The fact that it's plausible that OpenGL could 
become a second-class citizen is quite scary.
Apr 24 2007
prev sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron71 yahoo.com> writes:
Saaa wrote:



 How does 'making everything work nicely even though they didn't have to' 
 make you think they were willing to make OpenGL a 2th class citizen?
 The whole confusion started when microsoft announced the use of dx10 for the 
 ui and people expecting they would probably drop OpenGL as this seemed the 
 easiest option for microsoft.


The problem was that they initially said that Windowed OpenGL apps would 
automatically cause Aeroglass (or whatever they call it) to be shutoff 
upon launching. This caused a stir among OpenGL developers (and there 
was a lot of misinformation and speculation in the beginning) because 
they would be the ones getting support calls from clueless users ("Why 
does your app break Windows?") There was never any concern about OpenGL 
being dropped. All of this is well documented in a lengthy forum 
discussion at opengl.org.



 And in the end it still doesn't work like in XP: it is like wine does dx: 
 translating all calls.


That's just the stock drivers. Windows XP and earlier shipped with a 
software OpenGL driver that implemented version 1.1 of the 
specification. On machines with broken graphics card drivers (or no 
graphics card), this is the version that is loaded. Vista offers the 
same version as well as a new driver that implements the 1.4 spec (with 
no, or limited, extensions) and is implemented on top of DirectX. 
However, graphics card vendors supply drivers that provide raw OpenGL 
access so that apps can take full advantage of all of the latest OpenGL 
features and not worry about a DX translation layer.

So in practice, the majority of OpenGL applications will be running on 
OEM drivers and not the MS driver. Unfortunately, the driver 
architecture of Vista is supposedly a PITA to work with. It took NVIDIA 
several tries to get it right and AFAIK ATI is still having difficulties 
with buggy drivers. I've also seen evidence that, except for some 
popular applications that MS special-cased, many OpenGL games and other 
apps suffer a performance hit on Vista compared to XP. This might change 
as the graphics card vendors enhance their Vista drivers, but it isn't 
going to happen overnight.

The audio situation is atrocious as well. Any old apps you have that use 
DirectAudio/Sound/Music will no longer have functioning EAX or hardware 
acceleration. As far as games go, that's a lot of titles.

There's a lot to dislike in Vista. I personally won't be downgrading to 
it. When XP is no longer supported and becomes a PITA to use, I'll be 
making a more permanent move to Linux. I don't want draconian 
anti-piracy and security measures forced down my throat, nor do I want 
to upgrade my hardware just for an OS. I'll also be primarily targeting 
Mac and Linux for my software development. I don't need the support 
headaches that will inevitably come from non-tech savvy users when they 
see scary dialog boxes pop up and get the impression that my 
applications are spyware. Or when they are running buggy graphics 
drivers that they haven't updated since they first installed Vista.

If you're happy with Vista, more power to you. I have nothing against 
MS, but Vista is pile of crap.
Apr 24 2007
parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:37:39 +0900, Mike Parker wrote:


 Saaa wrote:
 
 

 How does 'making everything work nicely even though they didn't have to' 
 make you think they were willing to make OpenGL a 2th class citizen?
 The whole confusion started when microsoft announced the use of dx10 for the 
 ui and people expecting they would probably drop OpenGL as this seemed the 
 easiest option for microsoft.


 
 The problem was that they initially said that Windowed OpenGL apps would 
 automatically cause Aeroglass (or whatever they call it) to be shutoff 
 upon launching. This caused a stir among OpenGL developers (and there 
 was a lot of misinformation and speculation in the beginning) because 
 they would be the ones getting support calls from clueless users ("Why 
 does your app break Windows?") There was never any concern about OpenGL 
 being dropped. All of this is well documented in a lengthy forum 
 discussion at opengl.org.
 
 

 And in the end it still doesn't work like in XP: it is like wine does dx: 
 translating all calls.


 
 That's just the stock drivers. Windows XP and earlier shipped with a 
 software OpenGL driver that implemented version 1.1 of the 
 specification. On machines with broken graphics card drivers (or no 
 graphics card), this is the version that is loaded. Vista offers the 
 same version as well as a new driver that implements the 1.4 spec (with 
 no, or limited, extensions) and is implemented on top of DirectX. 
 However, graphics card vendors supply drivers that provide raw OpenGL 
 access so that apps can take full advantage of all of the latest OpenGL 
 features and not worry about a DX translation layer.
 
 So in practice, the majority of OpenGL applications will be running on 
 OEM drivers and not the MS driver. Unfortunately, the driver 
 architecture of Vista is supposedly a PITA to work with. It took NVIDIA 
 several tries to get it right and AFAIK ATI is still having difficulties 
 with buggy drivers. I've also seen evidence that, except for some 
 popular applications that MS special-cased, many OpenGL games and other 
 apps suffer a performance hit on Vista compared to XP. This might change 
 as the graphics card vendors enhance their Vista drivers, but it isn't 
 going to happen overnight.
 
 The audio situation is atrocious as well. Any old apps you have that use 
 DirectAudio/Sound/Music will no longer have functioning EAX or hardware 
 acceleration. As far as games go, that's a lot of titles.
 
 There's a lot to dislike in Vista. I personally won't be downgrading to 
 it. When XP is no longer supported and becomes a PITA to use, I'll be 
 making a more permanent move to Linux. I don't want draconian 
 anti-piracy and security measures forced down my throat, nor do I want 
 to upgrade my hardware just for an OS. I'll also be primarily targeting 
 Mac and Linux for my software development. I don't need the support 
 headaches that will inevitably come from non-tech savvy users when they 
 see scary dialog boxes pop up and get the impression that my 
 applications are spyware. Or when they are running buggy graphics 
 drivers that they haven't updated since they first installed Vista.
 
 If you're happy with Vista, more power to you. I have nothing against 
 MS, but Vista is pile of crap.



Whaaa?  Did I hear Mike Parker say that he will move to Linux?!  Wow! 
Never thought I'd hear that.  :-)

-JJR
Apr 24 2007
parent Mike Parker <aldacron71 yahoo.com> writes:
John Reimer wrote:


 
 Whaaa?  Did I hear Mike Parker say that he will move to Linux?!  Wow! 
 Never thought I'd hear that.  :-)


Yeah, neither did he :) Vista and Ubuntu changed my mind.
Apr 24 2007
prev sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 
 Also, as a programmer, I'm seriously pissed off with the new stuff in
 Vista.  I mean, first they bring out .NET with SWForms, then almost
 immediately deprecate it for WPF.  How long before they bring out
 something else new that I need to re-learn?  Bugger it; I'm sticking to
 cross platform toolkits from now on, no exceptions.


But Microsoft has always done this.  It's one reason my Win32 apps look 
like Unix apps at the code level.  I have no interest in chasing 
technologies that will be obsolete six months later.


 Finally is the fact that anything Vista can do, Linux can already do,
 and do it better.  I mean, the marketing push for Vista has been "The
 Wow starts Now": have you ever seen Beryl?  That thing completely blows
 Vista and OSX out of the water in terms of how shiny it is.


Ubuntu is fantastic.  The only reason I still use Windows at all is for 
game playing and the fact that I hate dual booting.  But I don't have 
any plans to upgrade past XP.  From here I'll either get a mac or 
install Linux.


Sean
Apr 24 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jari-Matti_M=E4kel=E4?= <jmjmak utu.fi.invalid> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?


No, but please don't think you can force people to think the same way as
you do.

There are several reasons not to always use the newest version of
Windows. Maybe the biggest (from the developer POV) are compatibility
issues. People start to develop Vista-only apps with the new shiny dev
tools. Simply great, now everyone has to convert.

Sure it has interesting 'features' like Aero (which is a bad joke
compared to Beryl), but you know, some people really don't appreciate
the arbitrary limits the OS introduces - like maximum number of network
sessions < n (where n is a relatively small number, forcing you to buy
the most expensive Vista version if you do networking stuff), picture
quality of video clips on non-HDCP displays is max a x b pixels. Then it
phones home, forces to register new hardware, forces to use WMP, WMA,
standards-wise retarded IE7, etc.

Now if you think these are features, please take a look at any other OS
out there. Maybe you will notice the feeling that you're not being held
hostage anymore.
Apr 24 2007
parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
"Jari-Matti Mäkelä" <jmjmak utu.fi.invalid> wrote in message 
news:f0klls$7e2$1 digitalmars.com...

 Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?


 No, but please don't think you can force people to think the same way as
 you do.


Is this about me or about microsoft?
If this is about me: well in a discussion you hope to force, others to think 
like you or adapt to their better thoughts, by arguments.
If its not directed to me: ignore that sentence :D


 There are several reasons not to always use the newest version of
 Windows. Maybe the biggest (from the developer POV) are compatibility
 issues. People start to develop Vista-only apps with the new shiny dev
 tools. Simply great, now everyone has to convert.


This even happens in ubuntu: some apps are supported, the rest ake alot of 
effort to get to work.
Somebody makes choises including develepors and as vista breaks 
compatibility with previous windows
(like for fthe first time for real) this is going to happen yes. But most 
non-3d apps have the tag: (98)/2k/xp/vista

 Sure it has interesting 'features' like Aero (which is a bad joke
 compared to Beryl), but you know, some people really don't appreciate


You understand that aero was the one feature which is easy to market and 
thus not one the features I was talking about :D

 the arbitrary limits the OS introduces - like maximum number of network
 sessions < n (where n is a relatively small number, forcing you to buy
 the most expensive Vista version if you do networking stuff), picture


Marketing yes.

 quality of video clips on non-HDCP displays is max a x b pixels. Then it


Only if you buy drm protected media, which I won't.

 phones home, forces to register new hardware, forces to use WMP, WMA,


I don't like the phones home part and I hope there is an VistaAntiSpy.

 standards-wise retarded IE7, etc.


This is not true, the forcing part. Neelie won't allow this :D


 Now if you think these are features, please take a look at any other OS
 out there. Maybe you will notice the feeling that you're not being held
 hostage anymore.


It is mostly the lack of support by other apps that's holding me back. There 
is atm no good alternative for office, excel and Photoshop.
I don't care whose fault this is, I need to use these apps and XP is for now 
my os.
I like the research Microsoft did which are expressed in Vista (look for 
instance in the video I mentioned earlier).
I also like the open source concept and by using windows I can use allot 
opensource programs.
(next to the os itself and Photoshop and office everything is opensource)
But after an enthusiastic start with ubuntu I had some annoyances with it 
(which I should report somewhere)
and getting to know a new os as well as windows just takes allot of 
effort(because it is new).
Apr 24 2007
parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jari-Matti_M=E4kel=E4?= <jmjmak utu.fi.invalid> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 "Jari-Matti Mäkelä" <jmjmak utu.fi.invalid> wrote in message 
 news:f0klls$7e2$1 digitalmars.com...

 Saaa wrote:





 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?


 No, but please don't think you can force people to think the same way as
 you do.





 Is this about me or about microsoft?
 If this is about me: well in a discussion you hope to force, others to think 
 like you or adapt to their better thoughts, by arguments.
 If its not directed to me: ignore that sentence :D


Both -- no, you were not. :) I just wanted to point out some people
think they can force others. I have strong opinions about free software,
yes. But you can freely ignore my posts, I just gave some food for
thought. I've used Linux exclusively for several years. Everything new
MS creates just causes me more work since none of that new is ever
compatible with other systems. I think that is a valid reason to dismiss it.


 There are several reasons not to always use the newest version of
 Windows. Maybe the biggest (from the developer POV) are compatibility
 issues. People start to develop Vista-only apps with the new shiny dev
 tools. Simply great, now everyone has to convert.





 This even happens in ubuntu: some apps are supported, the rest ake alot of 
 effort to get to work.
 Somebody makes choises including develepors and as vista breaks 
 compatibility with previous windows
 (like for fthe first time for real) this is going to happen yes. But most 
 non-3d apps have the tag: (98)/2k/xp/vista


But in the open source world you are allowed to choose. Canonical isn't
deliberately forcing people to convert to Ubuntu 7.04. The newest
development tools they offer produce working binaries for old and other
distros as well.


 Sure it has interesting 'features' like Aero (which is a bad joke
 compared to Beryl), but you know, some people really don't appreciate


 You understand that aero was the one feature which is easy to market and 
 thus not one the features I was talking about :D


Sure, but there are/could be also alternatives whose management is more
willing to co-operate with 3rd parties. I haven't checked, but I think
e.g. transactional ntfs and the semantic desktop project (not yet in
Vista I think) are one of those new features that are not possible to
implement in other OSes without reverse engineering. What about dx10
api? Again, there are cross platform alternatives.


 quality of video clips on non-HDCP displays is max a x b pixels. Then it


 Only if you buy drm protected media, which I won't.


Well, why the heck should I pay for this then.


 It is mostly the lack of support by other apps that's holding me back. There 
 is atm no good alternative for office, excel and Photoshop.
 I don't care whose fault this is, I need to use these apps and XP is for now 
 my os.


You can run office, excel and photoshop without any problems on linux or
mac, try crossover. Wine is also getting there step by step.


 I also like the open source concept and by using windows I can use allot 
 opensource programs.
 (next to the os itself and Photoshop and office everything is opensource)


They all work on older Windowses as well.
Apr 24 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?


It isn't necessary.  The only notable feature over XP is DX10.  But 
performance is abysmal, partially because of immature drivers and 
partially (it seems) because of DRM enforcement (read reviews that 
discuss file copying across drives or across the network).  And I object 
to the DRM features on purely idealistic grounds.


 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?


Please name one.  I'll admit that as a programmer I like some of the new 
API features they've added, but at the same time, I can't use them 
because Vista is too new.


Sean
Apr 24 2007
parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
"Sean Kelly" <sean f4.ca> wrote in message 
news:f0l19u$qso$1 digitalmars.com...

 Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?


 It isn't necessary.  The only notable feature over XP is DX10.  But 
 performance is abysmal, partially because of immature drivers and 
 partially (it seems) because of DRM enforcement (read reviews that discuss 
 file copying across drives or across the network).  And I object to the 
 DRM features on purely idealistic grounds.


 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?


 Please name one.  I'll admit that as a programmer I like some of the new 
 API features they've added, but at the same time, I can't use them because 
 Vista is too new.


 Sean


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_and_safety_features_new_to_Windows_Vista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_features_new_to_Windows_Vista

Compared with XP it is a lot safer and as I made clear before, I need a 
windows system.
But as another post says it cripples file copying which really is an 
argument for me not to upgrade.
Also, as long as the drivers are crap I wont.
The font which is made for readability on low dpi does interest me, together 
with the upgraded hinting (see video)
I've never worked with Vista, I have with Ubuntu. Before using ubuntu I 
thought I might be swayed and at least wanted to install it on my parents 
computer, but I wasn't really satisfied with compatibility of software(which 
isn't listed as ubuntu'safe'?) and the explorer was kinda not really 
user-friendly for me :) (and then there is the drag drop which won't bring a 
window to front when I have something hanging above it and the dead keys 
(which I had to enable) which keeps on bleeping when I hit ' + t in "don't" 
and last my videocard wasn't supported, my screen didn't want to go to 
100Hz, and colour management is crap)
But then again I need Photoshop :D
I'm thinking about helping ubuntu thou, my first would be to let beryl show 
system info on its background :)
Apr 24 2007
next sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Saaa wrote:

 "Sean Kelly" <sean f4.ca> wrote in message 
 news:f0l19u$qso$1 digitalmars.com...

 Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?


 It isn't necessary.  The only notable feature over XP is DX10.  But 
 performance is abysmal, partially because of immature drivers and 
 partially (it seems) because of DRM enforcement (read reviews that discuss 
 file copying across drives or across the network).  And I object to the 
 DRM features on purely idealistic grounds.


 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?


 Please name one.  I'll admit that as a programmer I like some of the new 
 API features they've added, but at the same time, I can't use them because 
 Vista is too new.


 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_and_safety_features_new_to_Windows_Vista


I evaluated the code security features in .NET ages ago, and I'm pretty 
sure these are the features Vista uses for all code.  It's a nice idea, 
but the administrative features are incomprehensibly complex, and the 
security features can actually be overridden at the code level.  In 
short, I don't have any interest in this.  For the rest, I'd prefer just 
using some firewall software, etc.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_features_new_to_Windows_Vista


I'm actually very encouraged (and surprised) that Vista bundles Interix 
by default, since Microsoft dropped support for it a few years ago. 
Perhaps this means it has gained new life and will get the attention it 
needs.  However, Interix has always been available as a separate 
download, so this isn't a reason to upgrade to Vista.  As for the rest, 
I suppose it's useful for corporate installations, but I don't have any 
use for group policies, etc, at home.

So some of these are good features in general, but they either aren't 
features I care about or they are available for XP as well.  This is 
actually a good thing, since I don't want to upgrade my OS anyway :-)


Sean
Apr 24 2007
parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
I'll wait and see how good dx10 and the removal of the hardware sound layer 
works..
I think that in combo with aero and the new colour management its worth the 
switch for me.
It could and should be a lot faster than xp for games at least ;)


 So some of these are good features in general, but they either aren't 
 features I care about or they are available for XP as well.  This is 
 actually a good thing, since I don't want to upgrade my OS anyway :-)


 Sean
Apr 24 2007
parent "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39095

:D:D
Apr 24 2007
prev sibling parent reply Jan Claeys <usenet janc.be> writes:
Op Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:19:00 +0200
schreef "Saaa" <empty needmail.com>:


 I've never worked with Vista, I have with Ubuntu. Before using ubuntu
 I thought I might be swayed and at least wanted to install it on my
 parents computer, but I wasn't really satisfied with compatibility of
 software(which isn't listed as ubuntu'safe'?)


What exactly do you mean with that?


 and the explorer was kinda not really user-friendly for me :)


I quite like it most of the time, but there are other file managers
available if you prefer them...  :)


 (and then there is the drag drop which won't bring a window to front
 when I have something hanging above it


IIRC there are settings for such things "somewhere".


 and the dead keys (which I had to enable) which keeps on bleeping
 when I hit ' + t in "don't"


That's your punishment for turning normal keys into dead keys...   ;-P

If your keyboard layout doesn't have dedicated dead keys, it's probably
better to use a compose key (enable it in the keyboard configuration)
and/or AltGr (or AltGr-emulation on right Alt) to enter accented
letters.

E.g., by default my Belgian keyboard has <'> (single quote mark), <=E2=80=
=99>
(single closing quote mark) and <=C2=B4> (acute accent), with the last 2
accessible through AltGr, and only the "accent" one being a dead key...


 and last my videocard wasn't supported, my screen didn't want to go
 to 100Hz,


Even if it doesn't work out-of-the-box, I would be surprised if it
really would not be possible to force it.  :)


 and colour management is crap)


That depends on the application, e.g. Scribus and some other
applications have good colour management (through liblcms).


--=20
JanC
Apr 30 2007
parent reply "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
 I've never worked with Vista, I have with Ubuntu. Before using ubuntu
 I thought I might be swayed and at least wanted to install it on my
 parents computer, but I wasn't really satisfied with compatibility of
 software(which isn't listed as ubuntu'safe'?)


What exactly do you mean with that?
+the ones with the ubuntu icon in front. Installing one without it would for 
instance have  freakishly small fonts


 and the explorer was kinda not really user-friendly for me :)


I quite like it most of the time, but there are other file managers
available if you prefer them...  :)
+I didn't like that I couldn't select multiple file with the mouse because I 
had no space to start my rectangle
+you could only start below all the lines


 (and then there is the drag drop which won't bring a window to front
 when I have something hanging above it


IIRC there are settings for such things "somewhere".
+I did find the option to bring windows up front after some time
+but thats not what I meant


 and the dead keys (which I had to enable) which keeps on bleeping
 when I hit ' + t in "don't"


That's your punishment for turning normal keys into dead keys...   ;-P
+Why can't it just enter the ' iso the bleep? (like in windows)
+'Why don't you parté'  <--no bleeps nor compose keys needed, only the '

If your keyboard layout doesn't have dedicated dead keys, it's probably
better to use a compose key (enable it in the keyboard configuration)
and/or AltGr (or AltGr-emulation on right Alt) to enter accented
letters.
+compose keys sounds like more trouble, but then again I don't really know 
what they are :D

E.g., by default my Belgian keyboard has <'> (single quote mark), <'>
(single closing quote mark) and <´> (acute accent), with the last 2
accessible through AltGr, and only the "accent" one being a dead key...


 and last my videocard wasn't supported, my screen didn't want to go
 to 100Hz,


Even if it doesn't work out-of-the-box, I would be surprised if it
really would not be possible to force it.  :)
+Well my videocard really did not work.. after a few blue screens I gave up 
(had my time better to spend:)
+and I saw that my error wasn't uncommon (can't remember it though: 
something with X being from a different version or something)
+I added the refreshrates, but somehow it didn't let me go beyond 85Hz


 and colour management is crap)


That depends on the application, e.g. Scribus and some other
applications have good colour management (through liblcms).
+I meant fullscreen colour managment, the thing you save with jpeg files for 
instance
+but maybe you meant the same.. I dunno :D


-- 
JanC
May 01 2007
parent reply Jan Claeys <usenet janc.be> writes:
Op Tue, 1 May 2007 11:29:07 +0200
schreef "Saaa" <empty needmail.com>:


 I've never worked with Vista, I have with Ubuntu. Before using
 ubuntu I thought I might be swayed and at least wanted to install
 it on my parents computer, but I wasn't really satisfied with
 compatibility of software(which isn't listed as ubuntu'safe'?)


=20
 What exactly do you mean with that?



 +the ones with the ubuntu icon in front. Installing one without it
 would for instance have  freakishly small fonts


That was probably a Qt application.  There is a Qt configuration tool
somewhere that allows you to change the Qt default font size.

Qt is/includes a GUI programming framework comparable to Gtk (the
standard Ubuntu GUI uses Gtk).



 and the explorer was kinda not really user-friendly for me :)





 +I didn't like that I couldn't select multiple file with the mouse
 because I had no space to start my rectangle
 +you could only start below all the lines


You can use Ctrl+Click and/or Shift+Click instead.



 (and then there is the drag drop which won't bring a window to front
 when I have something hanging above it


=20
 IIRC there are settings for such things "somewhere".



 +I did find the option to bring windows up front after some time
 +but thats not what I meant


If that helps somewhat, windows come to the front if you hover over
their "button" in the Window list at the bottom of the screen.

=20

 and the dead keys (which I had to enable) which keeps on bleeping
 when I hit ' + t in "don't"


=20
 That's your punishment for turning normal keys into dead keys...   ;-P



 +Why can't it just enter the ' iso the bleep? (like in windows)
 +'Why don't you part=C3=A9'  <--no bleeps nor compose keys needed, only
 the '


I think it's maybe possible to do that, but it would require creating a
new keymap for your keyboard layout (possibly by extending an existing
keymap for your keyboard).

=20

 If your keyboard layout doesn't have dedicated dead keys, it's
 probably better to use a compose key (enable it in the keyboard
 configuration) and/or AltGr (or AltGr-emulation on right Alt) to
 enter accented letters.



 +compose keys sounds like more trouble, but then again I don't really
 know what they are :D


AltGr is less trouble than compose keys, but I have no idea if that's
supported in one of the existing keymaps for your keyboard layout.



 +Well my videocard really did not work.. after a few blue screens I
 gave up (had my time better to spend:)
 +and I saw that my error wasn't uncommon (can't remember it though:=20
 something with X being from a different version or something)
 +I added the refreshrates, but somehow it didn't let me go beyond 85Hz


Did you install any graphics drivers that didn't come from the Ubuntu
repositories?



 and colour management is crap)


=20
 That depends on the application, e.g. Scribus and some other
 applications have good colour management (through liblcms).



 +I meant fullscreen colour managment, the thing you save with jpeg
 files for instance
 +but maybe you meant the same.. I dunno :D


If you mean .ics profiles and related things, then yes that's what I
mean.   :)


--=20
JanC
May 05 2007
parent "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:
 +I didn't like that I couldn't select multiple file with the mouse
 because I had no space to start my rectangle
 +you could only start below all the lines



You can use Ctrl+Click and/or Shift+Click instead.


Can't use my keyboard form my bed :D



 (and then there is the drag drop which won't bring a window to front
 when I have something hanging above it


 IIRC there are settings for such things "somewhere".



 +I did find the option to bring windows up front after some time
 +but thats not what I meant



If that helps somewhat, windows come to the front if you hover over
their "button" in the Window list at the bottom of the screen.


That didn't work as it was the first thing I thought should have worked .. 
but maybe this is solved with the new release.


I think it's maybe possible to do that, but it would require creating a
new keymap for your keyboard layout (possibly by extending an existing
keymap for your keyboard).


Not in my time :D


AltGr is less trouble than compose keys, but I have no idea if that's
supported in one of the existing keymaps for your keyboard layout.


I think a beep should be avoided at all times, let the system think of what 
I wanted.


Did you install any graphics drivers that didn't come from the Ubuntu
repositories?


No, should I have? (I have no clue as to where to find those )


If you mean .ics profiles and related things, then yes that's what I
mean.   :)


I'll look into that.
I'll try it all again within the new release in the next few weeks.
May 09 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Charlie <charlie.fats gmail.com> writes:
I had Vista pre-installed on my new lenovo laptop and absolutely could 
not stand it.  I'm mostly OS neutral, I like XP and Ubuntu , but Vista 
is absolutely god awful, I had to jump through so many hoops to get it 
configured, and now instead of configuration files the have *registry 
patches* , good lord!

I have a core duo 2 and Vista ran so slow, it literally took over 5 
minutes to boot up.

And besides eye candy it has no new features that would make it more 
productive.

I uninstalled Vista and installed kubuntu, and could not be happier. 
Its quick, its pretty, and insanely productive.

I remember trying to install Slackware 3.0 pre 21st century from a set 
of floppies and totally trashing the family computer - they wouldn't let 
me touch it after that.  Linux now is a one click install, with most 
drivers detected automatically.  Everything on my laptop, sound - 
wireless card - ethernet , worked out of the box.

Charlie




Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?
 
 No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I get 
 my new computer.
 
 http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry
 DirectX 10 , software sound approach
 
 I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of it 
 to switch?
 
 
 "Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> wrote in message 
 news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1 digitalmars.com...

 freeagle wrote:

 Charlie wrote:

 DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of 
 work.


 I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. 
 I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and 
 probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is 
 www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much 
 attention.


 It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's 
 Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a 
 Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my 
 own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days 
 with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the 
 ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really 
 gave DFL a second look.

 --bb
Apr 24 2007
parent "Rioshin an'Harthen" <rharth75 hotmail.com> writes:
"Charlie" <charlie.fats gmail.com> kirjoitti viestissä 
news:462E12D8.7020406 gmail.com...

I had Vista pre-installed on my new lenovo laptop and absolutely could not 
stand it.  I'm mostly OS neutral, I like XP and Ubuntu , but Vista is 
absolutely god awful, I had to jump through so many hoops to get it 
configured, and now instead of configuration files the have *registry 
patches* , good lord!

 I have a core duo 2 and Vista ran so slow, it literally took over 5 
 minutes to boot up.


Comparing my computers, a P4 3.0GHz (not dual-core but hyper-threading)
with 1GB of memory running XP Pro SP2 and my C2D E6400 with 2GB
memory running Vista Ultimate, I've found that the newer computer is
decidedly faster in booting up and in general running of the operating 
system,
as well. (My third computer (a Celeron) is running Fedora, so I know the
Linux world, too.)


 And besides eye candy it has no new features that would make it more 
 productive.


But it does increase security rather considerably when compared to XP:
using XP, you almost had to use accounts with administrative privileges,
while Vista can be used with a limited account. It's like having to log in
as root to use the OS compared to using su or sudo.

Also, the Vista firewall is by far better than the XP one - basically, with
Vista you can manage running a third-party virus scanner, while with XP
you really need the third-party firewall, as well.
Apr 25 2007
prev sibling parent reply Mark Wrenn <mark-nospam binarytheory.com> writes:
I find this whole Vista vs XP thing interesting.

The truth is I don't think Vista has any really compelling features.  So 
people (some? most?) aren't willing to go through the hardware upgrade 
pain or the learning curve.  If Vista just had some really compelling 
thing about it - like better paging, better performance, easier to use, 
something - then people would upgrade.  The switch from Win98 to XP was 
compelling.  XP was much better.

Reminds me of the D vs. C++ (your favorite language here) discussions.

None us want to upgrade / change unless there's something really 
compelling about the change.  It's a given that we're all D fans here. 
But the average guy...what does he think?

Mark


Saaa wrote:

 Are even programmers against vista?
 Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
 You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting 
 can't be shown in general commercials, right?
 


<snip>
Apr 24 2007
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Mark Wrenn wrote:

 
 None us want to upgrade / change unless there's something really 
 compelling about the change.  It's a given that we're all D fans here. 
 But the average guy...what does he think?


The average guy will get Vista on his next Dell but isn't likely to go 
out and purchase an upgrade on his own.  Vista is expensive, and 
upgrading Windows is a fairly involved process.  If geeks can't think of 
a good reason to go through all that expense and trouble, I doubt the 
average guy can either.


Sean
Apr 24 2007
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Sean,


 Mark Wrenn wrote:
 

 None us want to upgrade / change unless there's something really
 compelling about the change.  It's a given that we're all D fans
 here. But the average guy...what does he think?
 


 The average guy will get Vista on his next Dell but isn't likely to go
 out and purchase an upgrade on his own.  Vista is expensive, and
 upgrading Windows is a fairly involved process.  If geeks can't think
 of a good reason to go through all that expense and trouble, I doubt
 the average guy can either.
 
 Sean
 


If the average guy  is anything like me he will get Vista on his next PC 
and go out an "buy" a copy of XP to get that POS OS/resource hog off his 
system. Or maybe he will just dump it for Linux.
Apr 24 2007