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digitalmars.D.announce - D Language Foundation October 2025 Quarterly Meeting Summary

reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
The D Language Foundation’s quarterly meeting for October 2025 
took place on Friday the 3rd. It lasted about fifty minutes.

Our quarterly meetings are where representatives from businesses 
big and small can bring us their most pressing D issues, status 
reports on their use of D, and so on.



The following people attended the meeting:

* Walter Bright (DLF)
* Luís Ferreira (Weka)
* Martin Kinkelin (LDC/Symmetry)
* Dennis Korpel (DLF/SARC)
* Mathias Lang (DLF/Symmetry)
* Mike Parker (DLF)
* Carsten Rasmussen (Decard)
* Bastiaan Veelo (SARC)





Bastiaan said SARC had no major news to report. They were looking 
forward to a new release, and there had been no major setbacks. I 
joked that this might be the first time he had shown up with 
nothing for us. He agreed that maybe it was.



Luís said that at DConf, people had suggested Weka try the new 
GC. They still had not had a chance to upgrade the compiler far 
enough to test it, but it was something they very much wanted to 
do.

The main issue for them was on the LDC side. Some of Weka's 
binaries, especially their unit test binaries, were so large that 
they exceeded four gigabytes. At that point, the linker started 
complaining about overflowing relocation address space. As he 
understood it, the relocation addresses were signed 32-bit 
values, so once the binary got past that size, the relocations 
overflowed.

Walter asked how they were managing to get a multi-gigabyte 
amount of code in the first place. Luís said part of it was that 
they kept a lot of static data in the binary. Some of it was 
configuration-related, and some of it was for arrays where they 
liked to have precomputed values. They also used a great many 
templates. In the unit tests especially, those symbols took up a 
lot of space. One workaround they had already used was converting 
some of the static data into runtime-initialized variables, since 
performance did not matter much for unit tests.

Walter said that if the arrays were that large, then the program 
could just load them after startup rather than baking them into 
the binary, and he suggested they also look into why they were 
using so many templates. Luís replied that a lot of those 
templates came from their upgrade and downgrade infrastructure, 
which they had presented at DConf. He agreed there were things 
they could improve on their side and stressed that not all of 
this was the compiler’s fault.

Walter asked whether this was happening in a 32-bit or 64-bit 
compile. Luís said it was 64-bit, but the relocations were still 
signed 32-bit. He had tried moving to 64-bit relocations in LDC 
but had not managed it.

Luís then brought up a second issue. Weka wanted to move away 
from statically linking everything and start using dynamic 
linkage instead, but they had run into a lot of problems there as 
well. He expected that once they got further into that 
transition, they would start filing bug reports. One example he 
had already seen was that export did not work properly together 
with `-fvisibility=hidden`. He thought this was probably 
LDC-specific, though he wasn't sure whether there was an 
equivalent DMD-side mechanism for the same thing. He had noticed 
cases where compiler-generated symbols, such as postblits, 
weren't being marked for export, which meant they weren't 
exported from the shared library.

I asked whether he already had a bug report for that second 
issue. He said yes, there were two bug reports related to export 
not working properly, but he didn't have them handy. I told him 
to send them to me and I would forward them on to Dennis and 
Nick. He added that Ilya might also have some other issues to 
raise, as he was working on a new build system. Weka were 
integrating Bazel and had run into some issues there, though Luís 
was not sure of the details.



Carsten said Decard were building and testing a larger network 
and trying to push throughput higher. The issues they were 
dealing with were not really anything for us to solve. They were 
just having some problems they didn't fully understand yet, and 
as part of that they were writing a new network in D. They wanted 
communication across several hundred nodes, and what they 
currently had was not enough for that.

I asked whether there was anything blocking them or any issue to 
report. Carsten said no. They were happy with D and had no 
problems with it at the moment.



When I asked Dennis whether he had anything work-related to 
report from SARC or the DLF side, he had nothing from work.

On the DLF side, he said that he had finally managed to build the 
2.112 beta and upload it, so the files were now present on the 
pre-releases download page. What still remained was updating the 
changelog, the website, and the announcement.

He said there had also been a tagging issue that Bastiaan had 
spotted involving dub. The tag still appeared to come from May, 
and Dennis wasn't sure whether the tag was wrong, the build was 
wrong, or both. He needed to look into that.

Bastiaan said that from what he could see, the build appeared to 
be shipping the latest commit from dub, but when the version was 
printed it still showed the old tag from May. In practical terms, 
that probably didn't matter much, because the latest stable 
version was what should be shipping anyway. Dennis said that on 
the one hand that was good news, but on the other hand it meant 
something weird was going on in the build process, because in his 
mental model the build should have been built from the tag.

Eventually, he planned to move away from the current janky local 
workflow and transition the build process to GitHub workflows. 
His goal was to get GitHub Actions building the release artifacts 
and gradually smooth out the process, since at the moment the 
most annoying part was simply getting things built at all.

That led into a discussion about code signing. I asked whether, 
since he was moving things over to GitHub Actions, he would want 
to get the build process settled first before looking into code 
signing. Dennis said probably yes. He also still needed to 
investigate macOS code signing, which Luna had offered to help 
with, and was not even sure yet whether that could be done on 
GitHub or if it would still require a local VirtualBox setup.

Walter said it was a terrible look for us when people clicked the 
download link and got a warning that the file was unsigned and 
should be used at their own risk. He understood that the release 
process was complicated, but asked whether we could at least fix 
the certification problem. He asked what it would cost us to get 
a certificate.

Dennis said he had briefly looked at SSL.com. A one-year license 
there appeared to cost about $120, and if you bought more years 
up front, the annual price dropped. Walter asked if that was per 
executable, and Dennis said no, he thought it was per license and 
could be used on as many things as needed.

Walter asked if Dennis could just buy the license and be 
reimbursed. He told him to get the ten-year option. He said he 
had been afraid it might cost thousands of dollars, but at only a 
few hundred dollars, it was a no-brainer and something we should 
obviously do.

I noted we'd had one that Iain had signed us up for, but then the 
price had become much too expensive. I was sure he'd looked into 
other options, but ultimately didn't choose one because none of 
them were easy to integrate into the current release process.

Bastiaan said they had implemented code signing at work a few 
years ago and that it had been non-trivial and quite a pain. Part 
of the trouble was that the company selling them the service had 
not been allowed to explain how to automate it. The apparent 
intention was that signing should remain a manual step, almost 
like a physical signature. He said that in practice it was now 
integrated into their build infrastructure, but it involved a 
physical dongle that had to be plugged in somewhere. Because of 
that, he wasn't sure how well it would fit with GitLab- or 
GitHub-hosted workflows. He suggested Dennis could ask someone at 
SARC about what they had ended up using.

Martin said that, as far as integration with the release process 
was concerned, the short of it was that we'd have to install the 
GitHub Actions runner on a separate machine with a dongle, create 
a registration token to freely register the runner with the 
repository, and then we could have a CI job that would download 
the generated artifacts, sign those on our runner on the machine 
with our dongle, and then upload them.

I said this wasn't going to get solved in a weekend. I repeated 
my suggestion that we let Dennis get the refactored release 
process in place first instead of adding additional complications 
to the existing one. Walter said okay, but he was worried that 
this was a very bad look for us.

(__UPDATE__: We've since had discussions about signing. After the 
most recent email thread, Adam Wilson is looking into getting us 
set up to sign via Azure.)



Mathias said that if we could make `-checkaction=context` work, 
and ideally make it the default at least in unit test mode, that 
would make everyone’s life easier.

When Carsten said he didn't understand what that was, Mathias 
explained that it was the thing that told you what expression had 
actually failed in an assert. Instead of only getting an 
assertion failure, it could tell you that this value had been 
compared against that value and the comparison had failed. The 
last time he'd checked, there had still been linker errors. They 
were hard to solve because they appeared at a different stage, 
but he still thought making it the default, at least in unit test 
mode, would be a very good move for D because it would provide a 
much better user experience when running unit tests.

Carsten said it wasn't a good idea to run threaded tests in unit 
tests. It didn't seem to isolate correctly, which was why they 
did not run threaded tests that way at Decard.

Dennis thought there had been a move to make 
`-checkaction=context` the default, but that had been blocked 
because there were still bugs in the lowering. In some cases it 
caused errors that didn't exist without it. He had run into one 
related to scope slices some time ago. He wasn't sure what the 
current state of that was, but said it still needed some work.

Martin came into the meeting then. Mathias said Martin would 
agree with him about making `-checkaction=context` the default in 
unit test mode.

Martin said he did agree, but that came with the existing problem 
around template instantiations, so he'd have to think about it. 
He mentioned the workaround currently used for BetterC to enforce 
template emission and said maybe something like that could help, 
but he was worried because it still didn't work in quite a few 
cases. If it only failed in one case out of a million, that might 
be acceptable, but as things stood he was cautious.



Regarding work, Martin said he unfortunately was not using much D 
for Symmetry at the moment because priorities for him had shifted 
toward Python. Still, he did have one important thing to report, 
and that was the status of the new GC.

He explained that the GC, originally Amaury's work for SDC and 
then taken on by Steven to port to the symgc dub package, had 
been integrated directly into Symmetry’s LDC fork. In their case, 
using the symgc package as a separate dependency wasn't 
attractive because they had many executables, dozens of test 
runners, shared libraries, and so on. Pulling the package into 
each one explicitly would have been ugly, so they had baked it 
directly into the runtime and made it register automatically.

With the latest symgc 0.9.6 release, it now even defaulted to the 
new collector rather than requiring an explicit opt-in. Their 
main Symmetry product had already been switched over to use it by 
default after several months of testing with people opting in 
first. They hadn't seen any real issues during those months, and 
the results had been very strong. Peak Resident Set Size (RSS) 
was down by at least half, and in some cases by as much as 
two-thirds. He said that in their environment it was now 
production-ready, and they were shipping it.

At the moment they supported Linux and Windows on x86_64 only. He 
thought AArch64 support had also gone into the latest 
incarnation, perhaps Linux-only for now, but macOS was still 
missing and that was a bigger piece of work. The long-term plan 
was to get it working more broadly on AArch64 across platforms, 
hopefully including Windows.

Beyond that, Martin said he hadn't had much time lately to work 
deeply on LDC-related things, but there was one improvement he 
wanted to get out in the not-too-distant future. He wasn't yet 
sure what the exact plan was for 2.112 or whether the stable 
branch would remain as it was or master would be merged back into 
stable again, but he said one recent development was that LDC now 
had a new contributor who had been helping with a major 
refactoring of the configuration system.

He couldn't recall the person’s name off the top of his head, but 
said he was Romanian and had been helping primarily with 
configuration work, especially making separate builds of the 
runtime and compiler easier, including cross-compilation of the 
compiler itself. The old single ldc2.conf file in the etc 
directory was being replaced in spirit by a configuration 
directory model, similar to the old SysV style on Linux with 
numbered files. The old single-file setup would still be 
supported, but the new design would make it easier to inject new 
configuration fragments or override specific settings without 
touching the original file.

The main goal was better support for multiple targets. LDC had 
long had implicit cross-compilation capability, and they wanted 
to make that more accessible to users. Rather than editing the 
full config file by hand, future tooling should let someone do 
something like call a command for a target such as Windows x64 
and have the appropriate prebuilt DRuntime and Phobos downloaded, 
installed, and configured automatically. Then cross-compilation 
could be done directly with the compiler or with dub using the 
appropriate target option. He said that was the main recent area 
of work on LDC.

Luís asked what kind of RSS reduction they had actually seen with 
the new GC. Martin said that as a general rule of thumb, it was 
around 50%, and in their tests they had seen fairly consistent 
reductions in the 50-60% range. In some cases, projects that had 
once peaked at more than 130 GB of RSS had dropped by about 60%. 
In a few workloads they had also seen runtime improvements, but 
he noted that performance varied more than memory usage did.

Luís said that although Weka mostly used fibers rather than many 
threads, the memory reduction alone would be extremely valuable 
to them. Some customers ran thousands of nodes, so lowering RSS 
per node was really important. They had management nodes that 
used gRPC and JSONValue, where some calls created a lot of GC 
allocations. The memory was probably very fragmented. He thought 
they could probably benefit quite a lot from the new collector.

He brought up another issue he'd forgotten about earlier, 
connected to Weka’s new build system. They generated header-only 
output from D files as a way of tracking dependencies, but 
`-deps` was crashing, so they could only use `-makedeps`. They 
needed a way to generate headers without also forcing code 
generation. Right now, even for header-only output, the compiler 
still had to go through code generation, and he thought there 
should be a simple flag to say "only generate headers". He 
believed Ilya had a proposal to implement that.

Martin said that at Symmetry they used Reggae for their builds, 
wrapping a very large collection of dub packages and projects. 
They relied on `-makedeps` automatically during normal 
compilation and fed that into Ninja, which then updated its own 
dependency database. He thought that was the preferable general 
direction because it gave them the dependency graph for free as 
part of normal code generation.

 From his point of view, `-makedeps` should already be complete in 
terms of imports. Whatever file was imported as part of 
compilation should show up there, including DRuntime, Phobos, and 
imported C files. So he didn't really see a need to move from 
`-makedeps` to `-deps` in order to get a more complete graph. If 
`-deps` gave some additional information, that was fine, but 
`-makedeps` should at least already be complete.

Luís clarified that they did use `-makedeps` now, but had wanted 
`-deps` because it provided more information. What they were 
really after was the extra semantic information. The problem was 
that when they tried to use `-deps`, the compiler got into a loop 
and crashed.

He said they had also run into issues with generated headers 
mixing up public and private visibility, so things that were 
supposed to be public sometimes showed up as private in the 
generated header. He wasn't sure whether the right direction was 
to improve header generation or just avoid it and rely on 
`-makedeps`. He needed to understand the system better.

Carsten said that when they had used `-deps` or `-makedeps` at 
work, it had missed some imports. In particular, if there was a 
local import inside a function, it hadn't always picked that up. 
Martin said that if the compiler actually used that import during 
code generation, then it should show up. If it didn't, then the 
compiler had apparently decided it wasn't needed. Carsten said 
that sometimes they simply stopped using it and ended up making 
manual dependencies instead.

Luís said that one of the things Weka were doing wrong was how 
they compiled unit tests. Their unit test binaries were very 
large in part because when they compiled unit tests, they 
compiled the unit tests of all dependencies as well. That meant 
they were dragging in many unit tests that were never actually 
used. Part of the reason for that was that they used 
`version(unittest)` in ordinary code, which changed the ABI 
between unit test and non-unit test builds. He called that a 
really bad practice, but said getting people to stop doing it was 
a challenge.



Walter said that signing the releases had been his main concern. 
His other big topic was AArch64, which was a long sequence of 
taking a few steps forward only to trip over the next thing. He 
said he had hoped he could get away without building a `memcpy` 
into the compiler, but it turned out he really did need one. So 
he had looked up the most efficient instructions on Godbolt and 
was in the middle of building that into the code generator. That 
was what he had been working on the night before until he got too 
tired and went to bed. His immediate plan was to finish that and 
then move on to whatever the next problem turned out to be.

Still, nothing insurmountable had appeared so far. The worst 
problem had been around fixups, because every memory model and 
every platform seemed to invent its own magical, undocumented 
scheme for fixups and thread-local storage. He was baffled by how 
completely different all of them were. Since there was no real 
documentation, what he ended up doing was writing code, compiling 
it, disassembling it, seeing which fixups were being used for 
which storage classes, and wiring support in by hand.

He said some TLS references went through three indirections, some 
through two, some through one, and there was no rhyme or reason 
to any of it. He grumbled in particular about macOS and AArch64 
inventing their own completely different and undocumented schemes 
instead of following existing standards. He said varargs were 
also implemented differently on every platform, CPU, and memory 
model, and complained that macOS had even decided not to follow 
the standard for varargs, while also adding a large warning 
saying you could not just write standard C code and use their 
scheme.

In the end, he said it was a grinding process. There was really 
nothing anyone could do to help, and he just had to keep his head 
down and push through all the undocumented details one by one.



Our next meeting was the monthly meeting the following week. The 
next quarterly meeting took place on January 9th, 2026.

If you are running or working for a business using D, large or 
small, and would like to join our quarterly meetings periodically 
or regularly to share your problems or experiences, please let me 
know.
Mar 13
next sibling parent reply "Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole" <richard cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 14/03/2026 1:43 AM, Mike Parker wrote:

 Luís then brought up a second issue. Weka wanted to move away from 
 statically linking everything and start using dynamic linkage instead, 
 but they had run into a lot of problems there as well. He expected that 
 once they got further into that transition, they would start filing bug 
 reports. One example he had already seen was that export did not work 
 properly together with |-fvisibility=hidden|. He thought this was 
 probably LDC-specific, though he wasn't sure whether there was an 
 equivalent DMD-side mechanism for the same thing. He had noticed cases 
 where compiler-generated symbols, such as postblits, weren't being 
 marked for export, which meant they weren't exported from the shared 
 library.
 
 I asked whether he already had a bug report for that second issue. He 
 said yes, there were two bug reports related to export not working 
 properly, but he didn't have them handy. I told him to send them to me 
 and I would forward them on to Dennis and Nick. He added that Ilya might 
 also have some other issues to raise, as he was working on a new build 
 system. Weka were integrating Bazel and had run into some issues there, 
 though Luís was not sure of the details.



https://github.com/dlang/DIPs/blob/master/DIPs/other/DIP1045.md

The only thing that was approved was -extI which is now implemented.

This was one of the things featured in the DIP.
Mar 13
parent "Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole" <richard cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 14/03/2026 1:52 AM, Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:

 On 14/03/2026 1:43 AM, Mike Parker wrote:

 Luís then brought up a second issue. Weka wanted to move away from 
 statically linking everything and start using dynamic linkage instead, 
 but they had run into a lot of problems there as well. He expected 
 that once they got further into that transition, they would start 
 filing bug reports. One example he had already seen was that export 
 did not work properly together with |-fvisibility=hidden|. He thought 
 this was probably LDC-specific, though he wasn't sure whether there 
 was an equivalent DMD-side mechanism for the same thing. He had 
 noticed cases where compiler-generated symbols, such as postblits, 
 weren't being marked for export, which meant they weren't exported 
 from the shared library.

 I asked whether he already had a bug report for that second issue. He 
 said yes, there were two bug reports related to export not working 
 properly, but he didn't have them handy. I told him to send them to me 
 and I would forward them on to Dennis and Nick. He added that Ilya 
 might also have some other issues to raise, as he was working on a new 
 build system. Weka were integrating Bazel and had run into some issues 
 there, though Luís was not sure of the details.


 
 
 https://github.com/dlang/DIPs/blob/master/DIPs/other/DIP1045.md
 
 The only thing that was approved was -extI which is now implemented.
 
 This was one of the things featured in the DIP.
 The main issue for them was on the LDC side. Some of Weka's binaries, 


especially their unit test binaries, were so large that they exceeded 
four gigabytes. At that point, the linker started complaining about 
overflowing relocation address space. As he understood it, the 
relocation addresses were signed 32-bit values, so once the binary got 
past that size, the relocations overflowed.

For anyone who may be hitting this, try setting the code model to medium.

For ldc you can do this with: ``--code-model=medium``
That'll change it to 64bit relative addresses and may solve it.
Mar 13
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Serg Gini <kornburn yandex.ru> writes:
On Friday, 13 March 2026 at 12:43:23 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 The D Language Foundation’s quarterly meeting for October 2025 
 took place on Friday the 3rd. It lasted about fifty minutes.

 Our quarterly meetings are where representatives from 
 businesses big and small can bring us their most pressing D 
 issues, status reports on their use of D, and so on.



 The following people attended the meeting:

 * Walter Bright (DLF)
 * Luís Ferreira (Weka)
 * Martin Kinkelin (LDC/Symmetry)
 * Dennis Korpel (DLF/SARC)
 * Mathias Lang (DLF/Symmetry)
 * Mike Parker (DLF)
 * Carsten Rasmussen (Decard)
 * Bastiaan Veelo (SARC)


No Funkwerk?
Mar 13
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 March 2026 at 13:07:24 UTC, Serg Gini wrote:


 No Funkwerk?


I would have bet that you'd focus on Martin using Python.

October 3 is a German holiday.
Mar 13
parent Serg Gini <kornburn yandex.ru> writes:
On Friday, 13 March 2026 at 13:18:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote

 I would have bet that you'd focus on Martin using Python.


I skimmed the post, but this one immediately caught my attention 
:) Python is definitely the king <3


 October 3 is a German holiday.


Oh ok. As I was wondering, as some old-time D users from there 
moved to Java/Python as well
Mar 13
prev sibling parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 13 March 2026 at 12:43:23 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Mathias said that if we could make `-checkaction=context` work, 
 and ideally make it the default at least in unit test mode, 
 that would make everyone’s life easier.


This is the default in opend and it seems to be quite successful 
as such. You need to compile everything with it so it is 
consistent to avoid the linker errors, but switching to default 
helps with that.


 Rather than editing the full config file by hand, future 
 tooling should let someone do something like call a command for 
 a target such as Windows x64 and have the appropriate prebuilt 
 DRuntime and Phobos downloaded, installed, and configured 
 automatically.


OpenD shipped this as well a year before this meeting took place:

https://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-arsd/Blog.Posted_2024_10_25.html#xpack-win64
Mar 13