• Mike Parker (453/453) Dec 12 The D Language Foundation's monthly meeting for July 2024 took
• matheus (9/10) Dec 13 Hi Mike, first of all thanks for the write-up.
• Mike Parker (8/20) Dec 13 I've finished the first drafts of the August and September
• matheus (3/29) Dec 14 Awesome and thanks again.
• max haughton (3/9) Dec 13 It should be merged. Things rotting in PRs is absolutely

Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:

The D Language Foundation's monthly meeting for July 2024 took 
place on Friday the 12th. It lasted a little over an hour.



The following people attended:

* Aya
* Walter Bright
* Rikki Cattermole
* Timon Gehr
* Dennis Korpel
* Mathias Lang
* Mike Parker
* Steven Schveighoffer
* Adam Wilson





The meeting got off to an impromptu start. Walter, Rikki, and I 
arrived several minutes early and started chatting. At some 
point, the conversation turned to Walter's bitfields proposal. It 
continued as I started recording just before the scheduled start 
time and the others started coming in. When Timon raised his hand 
to comment, I said that this may as well be the first agenda item.

The recording begins with Walter and Rikki debating something 
about crossing storage unit boundaries, with Rikki saying it was 
needed and Walter saying it wasn't. I don't have the full context 
on that, though. Just after that, I said that I was curious about 
how often we'd really need to interface with C bitfields from D. 
In the popular C libraries I'd maintained bindings for over the 
years, there was only one that used bitfields. I just ignored 
them, but they were using `uint` so, according to Walter, that 
meant they should work out of the box. Even so, how often would 
we need to worry about it?

Walter said they were needed in the D compiler. GDC and LDC were 
hybrid C++ and D programs that couldn't use bitfields now. I said 
that was fine. We could do whatever needed to be done in the 
compiler. What I was wondering was how often we would need to use 
bitfields in the wild. If it wasn't very often, then requiring 
`extern(C)` to use the C compiler layout for mixed language code 
and defining our own layout otherwise might be a worthwhile 
compromise.

Walter said a more interesting question would be how often 
bitfields must conform to an externally imposed layout. He said 
that was almost never. The classic case was a hardware register. 
But then the hardware register was on your computer and the C 
compiler was on your computer, so it would do what the C compiler 
did.

Rikki said he'd dealt with it far more often with file formats 
and networking than when interfacing with C. It was just normal 
in those contexts. Walter asked if Rikki used file formats with 
bitfields in them. Rikki said yes, they were pretty common. 
Walter asked how C interfaced with that. Rikki said by doing it 
manually. Walter said, "Exactly!"

Timon said Walter was basically advocating for not using 
bitfields. If he didn't want people to use the feature, he 
shouldn't give it a nice syntax. That was just a bad design. 
Walter said they would have to disagree on that. Timon asked if 
it was a good design to create something that shouldn't be used 
but had a better syntax than the thing that should be used. In 
that case, yes, he would agree to disagree.

Walter said he wanted to be able to use bitfields in the D 
frontend. Timon said he should be allowed to and it should have 
nice syntax. He agreed with those constraints. He didn't agree 
that we should just copy the C thing into D. He also thought that 
if you defined it on the D side, and you defined the C side and 
it looked the same, then they should match. He wasn't against 
this.

Walter said they agreed on that point at least. If it looked the 
same in D and C but did something different, that was going to be 
completely unexpected and would potentially be a memory 
corruption error. However, it was documented that D bitfields 
would match the layout of the associated C compiler.

If you were using another C compiler on the same platform that 
didn't match the associated C compiler, then there could be no 
guarantees on the C side that the layouts would match. On POSIX 
and Mac, he'd never seen a C compiler that didn't match what all 
the other compilers did on those platforms, because that would be 
madness.

The only place he'd seen differences was on Windows. The 
Microsoft compiler did it one way and the GCC ports did it the 
GCC way. He thought that was an unfortunate decision, but there 
was nothing he could do about it. The Digital Mars C compiler 
layout was designed to match Microsoft's. And Microsoft's layout 
was designed to match what the other C compilers did in the olden 
days on x86.

He said the people writing C compilers weren't crazy, and they 
didn't do perverse things just because the standard let them. 
They followed the herd because they wanted people to use their 
compilers and didn't want to upset their users. So the only place 
this had been a problem was between Microsoft and GCC on Windows, 
where he'd seen people complain about bitfields and other subtle 
differences between them.

Rikki said he had proposed another solution: an attribute. The 
default would still match the C compiler, and that was fine, but 
then people who wanted an out would have one with a UDA.

Walter said the UDA was a good idea, but he thought doing manual 
alignment as he had proposed in the forums was a better one. It 
was simple and instantly understandable when you looked at it. 
There was no confusion about what was happening and it worked. He 
didn't know of a case where he couldn't make it work. You just 
lined things up before the bitfield. You could match any layout 
you wanted by changing how you laid things out. He did that to 
avoid normal member alignment problems. He'd either add or remove 
padding fields to make it work so he could avoid having to fiddle 
with alignment attributes.

I said that my one argument against this was that a lot of our 
user base, younger people coming into D these days, just 
generally weren't aware of this kind of thing. They weren't 
coming from a background where they needed to know these things. 

something else that wasn't C. Experience with that kind of 
knowledge about layouts just wasn't there. That would be a big 
hurdle for them, and I thought we should keep that in mind.

Walter said that was a great point. But as he'd mentioned on the 
forums, that could happen now even without bitfields. Structs had 
alignment differences between C compilers, and you had to deal 
with that at some point. I said that very rarely came up in my 
experience. Walter said that came up for him all the time.

He said there was also byte ordering. Was it Big Endian or Little 
Endian? He didn't think anyone was making a Big Endian machine 
anymore, but that was a big deal. That was what the `bswap` 
hardware instruction was for. Rikki said Big Endian was still 
used in networking and wasn't going away anytime soon. Walter 
agreed.

Steve said Walter was kind of correct in that if you had to deal 
with it, then you would just have to learn how to deal with it. 
If the layout were important to you, then you'd learn how it 
worked. And if you didn't care, you'd be able to use bitfields 
just fine. If you weren't trying to match a specific layout, then 
it didn't matter.

His problem was that it was just confusing. If you did want to 
know how to do the layout, then you needed to understand all 
these arcane rules and which C compiler was being used. It wasn't 
obvious why something was laid out in a specific way.

Walter asked what kind of naive users would add attributes to 
their bitfields to match a certain layout. It wouldn't occur to 
them that they needed to do it. Steve said the naive user wasn't 
going to care. They weren't going to be doing layout things. If 
they did want to match what a C header did, then they'd type in 
whatever was there and it should just work. Walter said it 
*would* work.

Steve said yes, that was the whole point. D was matching the C 
layout, so it would work. But if you were trying to match a 
layout that was in a protocol spec or something, the spec 
wouldn't say "use an int here" or "use a long there". It would 
just say "use this many bits". So now you had to figure out how 
to make the bits line up.

Walter said the beauty of that was that if it ended up being 
misaligned, you'd find out immediately. It wouldn't work. Steve 
said then you wouldn't know why. Walter said you would. He'd 
conformed to external layouts before, and the first thing he did 
was test to see that it worked.

Steve said you wouldn't know how to fix it. Say you needed to 
align something to 64 bits, so you used a `long` and it didn't 
work. What then?

Walter said he'd be happy to add a description of how to do 
manual alignment to the bitfields documentation. Then anyone 
reading would see a section that said, "If you need to conform to 
an external layout, here's how".

Timon said he shouldn't need to figure out how to do the layouts 
on the platforms he cared about. It was unnecessary work. He 
worried that people who saw the shiny bitfields would assume they 
behaved the same way everywhere, would do something that wasn't 
sane, and then a problem would crop up in one of his 
dependencies. He would have to fork the dependency to make it 
work on the platforms he cared about because they differed from 
the platforms the other person cared about.

Walter said if you were using code from somebody else who made it 
work by using alignments or manually adding padding, then it 
would work on your system, too. Timon said he understood that. He 
was talking about two separate people working on two separate 
dependencies, and one of them screwed up on Windows because they 
only cared about Linux. He had Windows users, and now it was his 
problem.

Walter said that would be true even with a struct layout that 
wasn't anticipated for the system you were building the same code 
on. Timon agreed but said that was much less common. Walter said 
if you switched between `-m32` and `-m64`, your struct layouts 
would differ. That was true on every compiler he'd ever tried it 
on.

Timon agreed, but by doing things in a sane way, you'd never run 
into this. We should just enforce sanity. He didn't see why this 
was so controversial.

Walter said it was controversial because if you wanted the 
default in D to do something different than what the C compiler 
did, it would be surprising to the user. A few people shook their 
heads, including Timon and Steve. Walter said he saw they 
disagreed with him, but he would be surprised if it happened to 
him.

Steve said he disagreed that this was their position. Walter said 
he didn't see how it wasn't their position. The default behavior 
should match the associated C compiler and do the same thing. It 
was the same with structs now. If you had a struct in C and 
wanted to use it in D, you could do that because it matched the 
associated C compiler. Steve said that was his position as well.

Adam said he wanted to back up the point I'd made about new users 

they called "flags". It was just an enum that you'd stick what 
we'd call a UDA onto, and then you could do bitfield operations 
on it. People generally didn't have a problem with it. There was 
a little bit of documentation on it, but requiring an attribute 
to change the layout of an enum wasn't asking a whole lot. Even 
people coming to D would understand that a bitfield was something 
special to which they'd have to attach an attribute.

Rikki said Nim had three modes for bitfields. One matched the C 
compiler, one was the packed thing that we wanted to do, and the 
third was it could do whatever it wanted. That was working for 
them. He said Rust was getting bitfields as well. He thought they 
weren't always going to use the C layout for them.

Walter said the original design for D was that the compiler could 
reorder struct members any way it wanted. He'd been specifically 
thinking about reordering to eliminate packing holes and things 
like that. It soon became obvious that it was just a bad idea. So 
he'd implemented it the way C did it and he was done. He'd never 
had a single complaint about field alignment in the D compiler. 
Not one. And the alignment did change things.

Another reason he'd abandoned reordering was that he'd realized 
that people sometimes ordered fields in certain ways for caching. 
They wanted their most used field in the hottest part of the 
cache. You wanted to group together the stuff you used regularly 
and put the rest somewhere else. In that case, you didn't want 
the compiler reordering it. If somebody carefully laid out a 
struct in C, and then the D compiler came along and reordered it, 
that wouldn't go over very well.

At this point, I said we should table this discussion. We had two 
scheduled agenda items to get to, and this one had taken up a 
significant chunk of time.

(__NOTE__: In a planning session in May, we had agreed that 
Walter should make some changes to the bitfields DIP, after which 
it would be okay to move forward for a verdict from Átila. Walter 
did make some changes to it, but has put it on the agenda for the 
December meeting for further discussion.)



Rikki said he had a DIP in development which covered the basics 
of matching a type. It was three weeks in and was ready for a 
pull request. He said he'd give it another week if anyone wanted 
to have a look and comment. He said there was something iffy 
about how he was supporting `static if`, but it was ready to go.

Second, he talked about [his proposal for a "memberof" 
operator](https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/16161). It had a 
problem regarding argument-to-parameter matching, something that 
Walter had voiced strong opinions about in the past. That had 
come up again [in the form of type inference in the DIP Ideas 
forum](https://forum.dlang.org/thread/zbugncpaooowjsxldzue forum.dlang.org).
Rikki said he was blocked on that and wanted Walter to make a decision about a
way forward if there was one.

Walter asked Rikki to write it up so he could fully understand 
it. Rikki said he'd simplify it: it was a simple rewrite to 
`context.identifier`. Walter said he would have to look into it 
and study it. He wasn't that good at thinking on his feet about 
something he wasn't using. Rikki said it was already implemented. 
Walter asked him to share the PR link and asked if there was any 
documentation for it. Rikki said there were comments. Walter 
asked if he could also do a changelog entry. Rikki said he would.

Rikki said the main problem with parameter/argument matching was 
that it had to call into semantic for verification because he 
didn't see another way to do it. He needed to know if it would 
have to be rewritten to avoid calling into semantic. Walter said 
he understood the question but he didn't understand the problem.

Rikki said that as a feature, it could be extended out to 
identity types and a bunch of cool stuff. It would be nice to 
have. Over the years, a frequent request was to be able to say, 
"Here's my identifier, here's an enum, get the member for me so 
that I don't have to write out the enum".

Walter said he would need an explanation of the feature and what 
it was for because he didn't know. Since it was something he 
wasn't familiar with, he couldn't have an opinion on it right now.

Rikki said that was good. He added that it wasn't just blocking 
sumtypes, it was also blocking [value type 
exceptions](https://github.com/rikkimax/DIPs/blob/value_type_exceptions
DIPs/DIP1xxx-RC.md) because they needed a zero-size value type to be returned.
It was in a register. That was how you got zero-size exception support. Walter
said he didn't know what a "zero-size exception" was. Rikki said it was from
one of the C++ proposals.

Walter said that C++ had gone so far off the deep end that he was 
very wary of doing anything just because C++ was doing it. Rikki 
said it was their family of sumtype-based exception handling. It 
was all kind of the same thing, just different names. He was 
pretty sure that for D we would only need to do what he had 
designed.

Steve asked if there was an article or video that explained 
sumtype exceptions so that we could understand them. Rikki said 
he'd written a DIP. Steve said he didn't need a DIP. He was 
asking about something for the layman user. How would they use it 
and how would it work? Rikki started to explain what it was 
about, but Steve said he was asking for something to look at 
outside of the meeting, not to talk about right now.

Walter asked if Rikki was talking about throwing a sumtype value. 
Rikki said it was a struct, not a sumtype. It was a sumtype under 
the hood. Walter said D didn't throw structs. Rikki said under a 
new mechanism it could. It wouldn't be calling out to the runtime 
exception mechanism. It would all be through the return of the 
function. It would just do it very nicely and hook into try/catch 
and throw.

Walter said he wanted to reduce the amount of complexity in 
try/catch and throw, not add value types to it. Rikki said it was 
a completely different mechanism, something we'd been talking 
about for ages. Walter said he was going to have to see a 
document on this. C++'s ability to throw values had been a 
gigantic design mistake.

Rikki said that was completely different. Mathias suggested that 
the value type was just an implementation detail. Rikki said it 
sort of was. It would throw your struct. The implementation 
detail was that sometimes it would actually be returned from the 
function in addition to the return type that you would specify.

Walter said he didn't understand how this had anything to do with 
exceptions. Rikki said it used the same syntax and was called an 
exception, but was a completely different mechanism.

Walter said this was obviously a complicated thing and he could 
not say it was a great idea or a bad idea or anything in between 
without taking the time to study its design. He said we could 
argue about bitfields all day because he knew it well. He didn't 
know anything about this.

Timon said he was pretty sure that Walter had suggested something 
like this before in the newsgroups. He expected Walter just 
didn't understand what Rikki was referring to. Walter said that 
might be entirely true.

Dennis asked if the idea was that you'd be returning a 
traditional error code, but in this case, the compiler would 
rewrite throw and catch to check the error code. Mathias said 
that was his understanding, too. Rikki said you could pass 
whatever user data you wanted.

Walter asked why you couldn't just use return, then. Dennis said 
you could forget to check it. It was also error-prone. Walter 
said okay, he just needed more information. He couldn't figure it 
out and think about it with just a conversation. He asked Rikki 
to please write a document, then he would study it and get back 
to him.

Mathias asked if we did that without using the exception ABI, 
wouldn't it break the ability to use exceptions between D and 
C++? Rikki said it wouldn't. One was a class which used the 
existing mechanism, one was a struct which didn't.

Walter said he'd given up on catching C++ exceptions in D on 
Windows. It was undocumented by Microsoft and too complicated, so 
he'd just abandoned it. It worked on 32-bit Windows because it 
was documented. Mircrosoft claimed they had documented it for 
64-bit, too, but they hadn't. It was a giant mess. He would have 
to spend a great deal of time reverse engineering it, and he 
didn't want to spend the time on it. So D had its own exception 
handling mechanism on 64-bit Windows.



Aya said she'd been wondering if it were possible for the 
language to return a variable-sized stack allocation from a 
function right now. Walter said it was not. Aya thought we should 
have some syntactic sugar for it. There was a way to do it, but 
it was clunky.

Walter said that normally when you returned variable-sized 
things, you did it by reference. Aya said you would have to 
allocate at the call site and pass the function a pointer to the 
memory for it to populate. That would effectively be a stack 
return.

Walter said that would work, but another thing was that we didn't 
want to step away from the C ABI. He'd tried that before with D 
and it had been a disaster. We had to conform to the C ABI 
because not only did everybody follow it, the debugger wouldn't 
work with anything but the C standard ABI. Even though the 
documentation said it would, it would not. Apparently, no one 
ever tested the debugger with a non-C calling convention. 
Inventing our own would not work.

However, the C ABI did say that if you were passing a large 
struct, a pointer to it would be passed instead and then the code 
generator would fill it in. That was just a variation on the idea 
of return by reference.

Aya said she was thinking about smaller allocations in general. 
It was possible to call a function that returned the size of the 
allocation. Then maybe you'd need to store what you were going to 
allocate in intermediate storage, which then would need to be 
allocated. So you would either need to allocate twice anyway or 
call twice all of the logic that determined the size of the 
return value. Her main thought was that she didn't know if there 
was a nice way to simplify it.

Walter said it would have to be done by reference one way or 
another. Aya agreed.

Timon said this was just the named return value optimization for 
a type with `sizeof` that was a dynamic value. He thought it 
would be a nice thing to have, but a bit tricky to build.

Aya said she'd also been thinking about struct interfaces. I 
mentioned Atila's library. Mathias asked why Aya couldn't use 
classes. Walter connected that back to the variable-sized 
allocations, saying that classes were variable-sized objects 
passed by reference. Maybe Aya could think about using classes to 
implement the idea.

Aya said the problem was when you had a very small struct you 
wanted to have an interface for and a lot of small structs. You'd 
just have a lot of small classes implementing the same interface 
with lots of heap allocations and fragmentation for no reason.

Walter suggested using COM classes. They were simpler and 
smaller. Aya asked if they were portable. Walter said they were. 
They were meant to match the COM interface in Windows. The 
compiler support was there. The smallest COM object only 
consisted of a pointer. Googling would turn up an explanation of 
them. They were pretty clever and a nice feature. Aya said she 
would look into it.

While the rest of us discussed the next agenda item, Aya did some 
searching about COM, so we came back to her.

She asked if `IUnknown` was required to work with COM interfaces. 
Walter said it was. Aya said that was behind a 
`version(Windows)`. Walter said we could remove it. Rikki said it 
could be used without `IUknown`. It could work with anything.

Adam said several things in D were improperly versioned to 
Windows, so it shouldn't be taken as gospel. He'd encountered it 
with ODBC support, something he'd been using on Linux. In those 
cases, it should be okay to just PR it away. He could guarantee 
that COM worked on Linux and on Mac. It was just a C ABI thing.

Walter noted that Microsoft's COM interface relied on the 
existance of the functions `QueryInterface`, `Add`, and 
`Release`. If you didn't inherit from `IUnknown`, you wouldn't 
get those. Adam said that was correct. You could do it without 
those, but you'd have to recreate the functionality.

Dennis said that Vladimir had wanted to expose some Windows 
bitmap-related structs, and as he recalled Walter and Jonathan 
had been opposed to it because it would be a bug to import 
Windows stuff on non-Windows. Adam said in this case COM itself 
was not Windows-specific. Walter brought up the GUID thing in COM 
and thought that was Windows-specific.

Adam said that was true. The struct itself could probably be 
exposed because there was nothing specific to Windows in that. 
Walter said you would need a way to get a GUID. Adam asked if we 
could use UUID and use Microsoft's methodology. Walter said yes, 
but something would have to be done to make that work.

Adam said his general point was that COM was just a C ABI trick. 
Windows had a bunch of support for it that probably wasn't 
available elsewhere. If we wanted to make the effort to recreate 
it in our own environment, that might work. He thought we didn't 
need the interface query part of it.

After this, there was a bit of discussion to clarify some 
confusion Aya had about the spec. In the end, she said she was 
good.



Walter said he'd been working on two things.

First, we'd had two major requests to get move constructors 
working, so it was a priority. He would divide his time between 
move constructors and ARM code generation. Weka had wanted the 
feature for a long time. They were a major user, so we needed to 
work on it.

Second, the PR for the ARM backend was a diff of over 5000 LOC 
and was practically unreviewable. He'd talked with Dennis about 
merging it even though it wasn't yet a functioning backend. He 
continually rebased it, but it was hard for anyone to follow his 
progress because he kept adding to this gigantic PR. He thought 
it would be better if it were mainlined.

Walter said that Dennis had brought up testing it. Running it 
through the test suite would not work, because the test suite 
required a fully functioning compiler. Adding an ARM target to 
the test suite would probably be necessary in the future. He 
didn't know how that might work. He didn't know much about how 
the test suite was set up.

Rikki said as long as the ARM backend wasn't exposed and none of 
the pathways were called into, then merge it. Walter said he'd 
put it behind a switch and he didn't think it would affect 
anyone's code. Rikki said he should document the switch, but 
otherwise it sounded fine to merge.



Before we left, I gave an update on the planning for DConf '24 
and some potential hiccups (which thankfully didn't come to 
pass), and Rikki said that he and Steve had been looking into how 
other languages handled coroutines and had concluded that 
stackless was the way to go. Then we called it.

Our next monthly meeting took place on August 9th at 15:00 UTC.

If you have something you'd like to discuss with us in one of our 
monthly meetings, feel free to reach out to me and let me know.

matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:

On Thursday, 12 December 2024 at 08:31:00 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 ...

Hi Mike, first of all thanks for the write-up.

Second I have a suggestion, could you please write what happened 
on last meeting first and fill the gap later?

Since some of the things that happened 4-5 months ago may have 
changed already or was reevaluated etc. And it's better to know 
what just happened for everyone to know what expect in the future.

Thanks,

Matheus.

Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:

On Friday, 13 December 2024 at 21:02:37 UTC, matheus wrote:
 On Thursday, 12 December 2024 at 08:31:00 UTC, Mike Parker 
 wrote:
 ...

 Hi Mike, first of all thanks for the write-up.

 Second I have a suggestion, could you please write what 
 happened on last meeting first and fill the gap later?

 Since some of the things that happened 4-5 months ago may have 
 changed already or was reevaluated etc. And it's better to know 
 what just happened for everyone to know what expect in the 
 future.

 Thanks,

 Matheus.

I've finished the first drafts of the August and September 
meetings and started on October. You'll be up to date in the next 
couple of weeks,

I fell behind last year when I prioritized the DConf videos over 
the meeting summaries and never took the time to catch back up. 
But soon I'll be back on my intended schedule of posting each 
summary 3-4 weeks after the meeting, just before the next one.

matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:

On Saturday, 14 December 2024 at 02:24:05 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 On Friday, 13 December 2024 at 21:02:37 UTC, matheus wrote:
 On Thursday, 12 December 2024 at 08:31:00 UTC, Mike Parker 
 wrote:
 ...

 Hi Mike, first of all thanks for the write-up.

 Second I have a suggestion, could you please write what 
 happened on last meeting first and fill the gap later?

 Since some of the things that happened 4-5 months ago may have 
 changed already or was reevaluated etc. And it's better to 
 know what just happened for everyone to know what expect in 
 the future.

 Thanks,

 Matheus.

 I've finished the first drafts of the August and September 
 meetings and started on October. You'll be up to date in the 
 next couple of weeks,

 I fell behind last year when I prioritized the DConf videos 
 over the meeting summaries and never took the time to catch 
 back up. But soon I'll be back on my intended schedule of 
 posting each summary 3-4 weeks after the meeting, just before 
 the next one.

Awesome and thanks again.

Matheus.

max haughton <maxhaton gmail.com> writes:

On Thursday, 12 December 2024 at 08:31:00 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 Second, the PR for the ARM backend was a diff of over 5000 LOC 
 and was practically unreviewable. He'd talked with Dennis about 
 merging it even though it wasn't yet a functioning backend. He 
 continually rebased it, but it was hard for anyone to follow 
 his progress because he kept adding to this gigantic PR. He 
 thought it would be better if it were mainlined.

It should be merged. Things rotting in PRs is absolutely 
disastrous.