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digitalmars.D.announce - DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Reddit: 
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/

Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


Andrei
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... 
I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I 
have another two or the grand to spend.

It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
wait 20 years for it.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 15:28:09 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... 
 I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I 
 have another two or the grand to spend.

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
 wait 20 years for it.


True dat. Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal 
to sell the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, 
max
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 16:19:20 UTC, John Colvin wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 15:28:09 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... 
 I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I 
 have another two or the grand to spend.

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
 wait 20 years for it.


 True dat. Combine that with good government subsidies and a 
 deal to sell the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 
 years, max


And this is in miserable, cloudy, rainy England. They must pump 
out a lot more in somewhere like California.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 16:19:20 UTC, John Colvin wrote:

 Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal to sell 
 the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, max


Aye, that's what I was hoping to get (New York State would have 
given like 50% money back).... but alas I went and bought a house 
with a west/east facing roof, and a gigantic tree due south from 
me.

The installer estimated I could still get maybe 70% of the 
system's capacity out of it, but the tax rebates get small fast 
if you go below 80%. My electric usage is small too, so the cost 
of installation adds up....

but still, it is virtually guaranteed to pay for itself over its 
lifetime and I have a good chance of turning a profit from it. 
That's so cool.

Only downside is the upfront cost, and that isn't even *that* 
bad. And I guess my equipment waiting to be installed uses a grid 
tie inverter, so if main power goes out, I'm still out, no 
independence there. But buying batteries and switches for that 
would just about double the cost, and 99% of the time, grid power 
is on anyway so just not worth it for me.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years
for
 it.


Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can 
 wait 20 years for
 it.


 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!


Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. 
The associated electrical components may break however, 
especially on some of the more complex setups.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:21:31 -0400, John Colvin  
<john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20  
 years for
 it.


 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!


 Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The  
 associated electrical components may break however, especially on some  
 of the more complex setups.


I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait  
20 years"

Solar isn't ready yet.  It's not cost effective.  But cost effectiveness  
isn't even the issue.  It's not sustainable.  You need fossil fuels to  
mine the materials, ship them, assemble the components, etc.  Until you  
can power all those things with pure solar, you are still dependent on  
fossil fuel.

I've seen all these "Solar farm" installations, and they are butt-ugly.  I  
find it ironic that we are cutting down trees to make room for these  
things...

You can save energy more cost effectively in other ways.  I have no doubt  
that solar technology will continue to innovate, but the worst thing we  
can do right now is subsidize it.  When it's ready (and it will be), it  
will succeed on its own merits.

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:21:31 -0400, John Colvin 
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you 
 can wait 20 years for
 it.


 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!


 Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic 
 AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, 
 especially on some of the more complex setups.


 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* 
 you can wait 20 years"

 Solar isn't ready yet.  It's not cost effective.  But cost 
 effectiveness isn't even the issue.  It's not sustainable.  You 
 need fossil fuels to mine the materials, ship them, assemble 
 the components, etc.  Until you can power all those things with 
 pure solar, you are still dependent on fossil fuel.

 I've seen all these "Solar farm" installations, and they are 
 butt-ugly.  I find it ironic that we are cutting down trees to 
 make room for these things...

 You can save energy more cost effectively in other ways.  I 
 have no doubt that solar technology will continue to innovate, 
 but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize it.  When 
 it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its own merits.

 -Steve


It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in 
certain circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin  
<john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:


 It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain  
 circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.


It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it to make it  
a good deal for the individual.  Would you buy it if it was full price?

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:54:34 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin 
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:


 It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in 
 certain circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.


 It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it 
 to make it a good deal for the individual.  Would you buy it if 
 it was full price?

 -Steve


Probably not. However, the subsidies have done a great deal to 
get the technology real-world testing in a variety of settings, 
as well as providing cash-flow for practical R+D, especially with 
regards to more down to earth practicalities. I would say it is - 
at the very least - not a complete waste of money for the 
tax-payer.

P.S. I'm not buying it at all, my parents did as it represented a 
much better investment than any bank accounts. In particular, the 
energy companies pay quite a high price to buy the spare energy.
Jun 11 2013
parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:51:08 -0400, John Colvin  
<john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:54:34 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin  
 <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> wrote:


 It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain  
 circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.


 It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it to make  
 it a good deal for the individual.  Would you buy it if it was full  
 price?

 -Steve


 Probably not. However, the subsidies have done a great deal to get the  
 technology real-world testing in a variety of settings, as well as  
 providing cash-flow for practical R+D, especially with regards to more  
 down to earth practicalities. I would say it is - at the very least -  
 not a complete waste of money for the tax-payer.

 P.S. I'm not buying it at all, my parents did as it represented a much  
 better investment than any bank accounts. In particular, the energy  
 companies pay quite a high price to buy the spare energy.


For my day job, our company actually does energy saving retro-fits (all  
for refrigeration, but many companies do lighting and HVAC).  It's an  
interesting business.  Typically the utility pays for most of the cost,  
and part of it is from the government, but part of it is out of  
practicality.  If they can pay you to lower your energy costs, they avoid  
having to build more power-plants because energy consumption is  
continually growing.

But from what I've seen in Solar, it's more political than practical.  Our  
paybacks without subsidizing are usually in the 2-5 year range.  And our  
equipment is guaranteed for far longer.  The incentive just makes it a  
real easy sell (usually under 2 year payback).

We also sell to large companies that have humongous coolers/freezers  
(think like home-depot sized), and these places can have less than one  
year payback *without* incentives.

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* 
 you can wait 20 years"


A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay 
for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, 
but I see it is very worth it.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:18:09 -0400, Adam D. Ruppe  
<destructionator gmail.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can  
 wait 20 years"


 A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for  
 itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it  
 is very worth it.


But the difference is, houses frequently last far more than 20 years :)

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 1:18 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20
 years"


 A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself
 compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth
it.


Rents have lagged significantly behind the cost of buying for some time, now 
(because people buy homes for speculating on real estate price increases). This 
means you are financially better off renting.

Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money isn't reliably one 
of them.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:51:53 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/11/2013 1:18 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I have to laugh at this.  "Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can  
 wait 20
 years"


 A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for  
 itself
 compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is  
 very worth it.


 Rents have lagged significantly behind the cost of buying for some time,  
 now (because people buy homes for speculating on real estate price  
 increases). This means you are financially better off renting.


Define financially better off :)

And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many  
variables to consider.

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Define financially better off :)


You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?



 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many variables
to
 consider.


I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially better than 
renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate faster than inflation 
plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing.

(A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when they make 
these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock options and bought a 
house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell it a year later because he 
couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his salary.)

I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a 6% 
commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of your 
profits right off the top.

Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:29:49 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house 
 costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There 
 goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top.


This is a peeve of mine. I don't see my house as a financial 
asset, that is I don't see it as something to sell for cash. It's 
value to me is entirely derived from me living inside it.

I saw a politician, President Obama I think, recently say "home 
values are on the rise, which gives more wealth to the middle 
class".... but is that really the case? The market value is only 
transformed into cash by a) loans, which aren't a net gain 
(excepting a lucky investment) because you have to pay them back 
or b) selling it.

...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now 
homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house will 
erase the gains you got from selling the old house! So I don't 
think raising property values makes me wealthier at all.

But I do feel the house is worth it financially because it erases 
an ongoing cost down the road. The sum of my taxes and 
homeowner's insurance are about 1/3 what I was paying in rent, so 
after the house is paid off, it is like erasing eight rent 
payments a year. It'll still take time for that to exceed the 
mortgage cost, but it eventually will, and when that happens, the 
house could have a $0 market value and that wouldn't matter to me 
because it still does what I need it to do.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 2:55 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now homeless. And
 housing prices are up, so getting a new house will erase the gains you got from
 selling the old house!


Yeah, I love that one.


 But I do feel the house is worth it financially because it erases an ongoing
 cost down the road. The sum of my taxes and homeowner's insurance are about 1/3
 what I was paying in rent,


Don't forget mortgage interest.


 so after the house is paid off, it is like erasing
 eight rent payments a year. It'll still take time for that to exceed the
 mortgage cost, but it eventually will, and when that happens, the house could
 have a $0 market value and that wouldn't matter to me because it still does
what
 I need it to do.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Jesse Phillips" <Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:55:48 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're 
 now homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house 
 will erase the gains you got from selling the old house! So I 
 don't think raising property values makes me wealthier at all.


But when housing cost goes up the government can take more from 
you on anything based on your "wealth." Just because you can't 
pay because your wealth is all chewed up in material things like 
a house, who cares!
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:36:11 -0400, Jesse Phillips  
<Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:55:48 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now  
 homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house will erase  
 the gains you got from selling the old house! So I don't think raising  
 property values makes me wealthier at all.


 But when housing cost goes up the government can take more from you on  
 anything based on your "wealth." Just because you can't pay because your  
 wealth is all chewed up in material things like a house, who cares!


In the US at least, only home sales (or transfers of ownership, like  
inheritance) are taxed.  As long as you live there, they will not (and I  
believe they cannot) tax you based on the "current value."

Property taxes are different, and you will be paying those no matter how  
you live (rent or own).

And you are allowed to transfer equity from your current home into a new  
home tax free, even if you gained, up to a certain amount.  I think there  
are limitations on how many times you can do this...

The tax system is definitely set up to favor the homeowner, not the renter.

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
parent Charles Hixson <charleshixsn earthlink.net> writes:
On 06/11/2013 08:59 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:36:11 -0400, Jesse Phillips
 <Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:55:48 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now
 homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house will
 erase the gains you got from selling the old house! So I don't think
 raising property values makes me wealthier at all.


 But when housing cost goes up the government can take more from you on
 anything based on your "wealth." Just because you can't pay because
 your wealth is all chewed up in material things like a house, who cares!


 In the US at least, only home sales (or transfers of ownership, like
 inheritance) are taxed. As long as you live there, they will not (and I
 believe they cannot) tax you based on the "current value."

 Property taxes are different, and you will be paying those no matter how
 you live (rent or own).

 And you are allowed to transfer equity from your current home into a new
 home tax free, even if you gained, up to a certain amount. I think there
 are limitations on how many times you can do this...

 The tax system is definitely set up to favor the homeowner, not the renter.

 -Steve


That's a state-by-state decision.  As to whether it's fair...I could 
make a case against either side.
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:29:49 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Define financially better off :)


 You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?



 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so 
 many variables to
 consider.


 I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is 
 financially better than renting. It's only true if real estate 
 values appreciate faster than inflation plus taxes plus real 
 estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing.

 (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains 
 taxes when they make these calculations. I know one guy who 
 cashed in his stock options and bought a house with the 
 proceeds, only to be forced to sell it a year later because he 
 couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his salary.)

 I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house 
 costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There 
 goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top.

 Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.


In my experiences renting in the UK, a lot depends on the local 
conditions.

For example, low quality housing situated near a university is a 
fantastic investment as a landlord: There is very little domestic 
demand for those properties as the academics don't want them and 
nor do the better paid admin staff, so the prices stay low. 
However, the rental demand is intense,  inexperienced and 
inflexible, keeping rents very high.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 6/11/13 5:29 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Define financially better off :)


 You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?



 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many
 variables to
 consider.


 I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially
 better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate
 faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is
 hardly a sure thing.

 (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when
 they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock
 options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell
 it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his
 salary.)

 I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a
 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of
 your profits right off the top.

 Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.


Whoa. I agree with all that, but this is well-known stuff, not obscure 
information going against common beliefs. There are a bunch of sites 
computing "buy vs rent" etc.

Andrei
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:29:45 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Define financially better off :)


 You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?


Cash is not always the only consideration.  Equity has value.  Quality of  
living has value, and can increase your financial situation.  And  
depending on how much more "moolah", it might not be worth it.  Consider  
that while you are renting, you are paying someone else's mortgage on that  
property, and at the end of the day (lease), you have nothing and they  
have a property, worth hundreds of thousands.

Whether you succeed or not depends very much on the local market.


 And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many  
 variables to
 consider.


 I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially  
 better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate  
 faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is  
 hardly a sure thing.


I never said it was *always* better, but it's not always worse either.   
Now is actually a very good time to buy, because prices are low.  A house  
is a very safe investment, if you can afford the mortgage.  Property will  
ALWAYS have value, even if almost everything else goes to shit.


 (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when  
 they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock  
 options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell  
 it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his  
 salary.)


Many people buy too much house for their salary.  It's even encouraged by  
the banks/government, it makes the government "look good" when more people  
can buy houses.  Then you get the market crash of '08.

This is actually a pretty despicable practice IMO.  Mortgages and housing  
investments are not things to take lightly, but we use "pre-approval" from  
the bank, as if the bank says "Yes, you can afford that house!" when it  
really has nothing to do with what you can afford.  And then the  
government threatened to punish banks if they did not make sure low-income  
families were approved for houses they couldn't afford.

It sounds like your friend was not in that dire of straights though, since  
he bought his house with cash.  Cash that he didn't have before.  I'm  
assuming he got most of that back (unless he was careless about his choice  
of house).  As humans, we seem to consider loss of what we didn't know we  
had worse than never having gained it.

A very interesting study posed two questions to people:

1. You are given $1000, without having done anything to earn the money.   
You then are given the option to take an additional $500 guaranteed, or a  
50/50 chance at getting $1000 more.  Which would you choose?

2. You are given $2000, without having done anything to earn the money.   
You then are given the option to lose $500 guaranteed, or a 50/50 chance  
at losing $1000.  Which would you choose?

The vast majority chooses the safe route of gaining $500 on the first  
question, but then chooses to risk $1000 on the second question because  
they HATE to simply give up $500 for sure.

Most people don't notice that both questions are EXACTLY the same.


 I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a  
 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of  
 your profits right off the top.


My profit on my first condo, which I bought in '99 and sold in '05 was  
150% of the *purchase price*.  Minus the 6% commission :)  Although, it  
was only 3% because a family friend who is a real estate agent did not  
charge me her half.  And I only had about 5% equity of the purchase price  
invested when I sold.

Of course, in '05 prices were inflated, so the house I bought with that  
money has since gone down in value.  But I'm still pretty well off because  
of my profit from the first.  And I have a very nice house, one which  
would be tough to rent at the mortgage payment I currently have.


 Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.


They can.  They don't have to go up as much as you think.  They can go  
down.  You have to be more aware of the market than with renting, that is  
for sure.  But that is true for any rent vs. buy situation when you are  
looking at a large purchase.

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:29:45 -0400, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:


 On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Define financially better off :)


 You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition?


 Cash is not always the only consideration.  Equity has value.


I know that. I took accounting, and know that any asset that can be exchanged 
for money is as good as money. Home equity can be quickly converted to cash via 
a home equity loan, or a bit more slowly by selling it.



 Property will ALWAYS have
 value, even if almost everything else goes to shit.


Unless you buy in Detroit! (And that's far from the only such example. Many 
small towns in America are like that.)



 Most people don't notice that both questions are EXACTLY the same.


Most people are math challenged. A friend of mine in the used car lot business 
told me that's how they make their money - off of people who simply don't 
understand how financing works, even when they're flatly told how it works.

Pick up a copy of the book "Influence". I bet you'll find it fascinating! I
sure 
did.
Jun 11 2013
parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:29:17 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:



 Property will ALWAYS have
 value, even if almost everything else goes to shit.


 Unless you buy in Detroit! (And that's far from the only such example.  
 Many small towns in America are like that.)


Correction, unless you BOUGHT in Detroit :)  If you buy in Detroit now,  
it's dirt cheap and you get what you pay for!

Certainly it pays to do research about the community, and not just look at  
the last year of sales.

My great uncle made his fortune during the great depression, simply  
because he owned land/property outright.  When everyone lost everything,  
so many newly homeless people needed places to stay, so he built very  
modest very cheap housing.  They were grateful to have a place to live,  
and he was able to avoid all effects from the depression because he had  
the one thing that everyone needs, and they're not making any more of :)

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 My profit on my first condo, which I bought in '99 and sold in '05 was 150% of
 the *purchase price*.  Minus the 6% commission :)  Although, it was only 3%
 because a family friend who is a real estate agent did not charge me her half.
 And I only had about 5% equity of the purchase price invested when I sold.


Consider that you rode the real estate boom using leverage. But that lever
works 
both ways, as many found out to their horror a few years later. You can lose a 
lot more than 100% of your investment when you lever.

I've ridden a couple booms successfully, too. I made the mistake of thinking 
that was business acumen. It wasn't, as I got a very rude comeuppance on the 
back slope of the boom.

I live in the land of the Microsoft zillionaires. It's fun talking to them
about 
their wealth. Most of them realize that they're worth $20m because lightning 
struck them, and behave prudently. A few delude themselves into thinking they 
are wealthy because they are business geniuses, and wind up getting reset to 
zero. Microsoft stock has been flat for 13 years now, and it isn't going to 
happen again to them.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from shooting for the stars in building their 
investments, I just want to point out that owning a home is far from the sure 
path to wealth it is too often presented as. As always, caveat emptor.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:40:29 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 My profit on my first condo, which I bought in '99 and sold in '05 was  
 150% of
 the *purchase price*.  Minus the 6% commission :)  Although, it was  
 only 3%
 because a family friend who is a real estate agent did not charge me  
 her half.
 And I only had about 5% equity of the purchase price invested when I  
 sold.


 Consider that you rode the real estate boom using leverage. But that  
 lever works both ways, as many found out to their horror a few years  
 later. You can lose a lot more than 100% of your investment when you  
 lever.


Absolutely.  But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house  
if you can pay for it.  The problem is when you buy a house that is beyond  
your means.  Which a lot of people did.


 I've ridden a couple booms successfully, too. I made the mistake of  
 thinking that was business acumen. It wasn't, as I got a very rude  
 comeuppance on the back slope of the boom.


I don't have enough history yet, but so far, my real estate moves have  
been adequate, maybe a bit fortunate.  It helps to have a friend in the  
business :)  I certainly don't profess to be a professional real-estate  
investor.  But I believe if I had chosen to rent, my current state would  
be VASTLY different than it is now now, and that wasn't exactly because of  
a bolt of lightning, it was an educated choice.

It also helps not to live on the west coast, where house prices can be  
outrageous.


 I live in the land of the Microsoft zillionaires. It's fun talking to  
 them about their wealth. Most of them realize that they're worth $20m  
 because lightning struck them, and behave prudently. A few delude  
 themselves into thinking they are wealthy because they are business  
 geniuses, and wind up getting reset to zero. Microsoft stock has been  
 flat for 13 years now, and it isn't going to happen again to them.

 I don't mean to discourage anyone from shooting for the stars in  
 building their investments, I just want to point out that owning a home  
 is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As  
 always, caveat emptor.


Home ownership for *living* in, is not for wealth.  It's for living.  You  
compare it to renting.  How much more/less does it cost to own vs. rent,  
and you have to consider the mortgage tax deduction, the property tax  
deduction, the equity you build, etc.  It's not just a direct comparison  
of payments.  This is all I'm trying to say.  It can cost more to live in  
a house payment-wise, but you can be better off financially.  It all  
depends on how much more or less it is.  And the variables are  
tremendously varied across the country and even between two adjacent towns.

Home ownership for *investment* is a completely different ballgame.   
There, you're comparing it to *not investing*, which costs you nothing :)

-Steve
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 6/11/13 11:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 I just want to point out that owning a home
 is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As
 always, caveat emptor.


I'd say it's historically about as risky as owning stocks. The main 
difference is that the house has a utility value - you can't live in a 
stock.

Andrei
Jun 12 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/12/2013 5:58 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 6/11/13 11:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 I just want to point out that owning a home
 is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As
 always, caveat emptor.


 I'd say it's historically about as risky as owning stocks. The main difference
 is that the house has a utility value - you can't live in a stock.


When you're comparing ownership to renting, the utility issue is moot.


Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you can pay 


for it.

Yes, but we are talking about the financial difference between owning vs
renting.


 it was an educated choice.


I'm not saying you're wrong, but the proof of that is if you can repeat the 
success consistently.

For example, a lot of CEOs have made fortunes for their companies by backing
the 
right horse. Sometimes, people dismiss them as just lucky, being in the right 
place at the right time and guessing the right direction. But some CEOs 
repeatedly make the right choices, and that cannot be dismissed as luck. 
Examples: Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

I also know a guy who sold everything at the 2000 peak and the 2007 peak. He 
tells me it was obvious, but I don't know anyone else who did both, although I 
know many who did one or the other.
Jun 12 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 13:20:30 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
  > But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you  
 can pay for it.

 Yes, but we are talking about the financial difference between owning vs  
 renting.


Right, but my point is, if you don't sell, there is no financial  
windfall/loss.  If you can afford to "ride out" the low period, you most  
likely will break even or make money when you do sell.  Home prices pretty  
much are consistent, and go in cycles.  Almost no houses go down to 0, and  
traditionally, the value goes up with inflation.  It's normally a pretty  
safe place to store your net worth.


  > it was an educated choice.

 I'm not saying you're wrong, but the proof of that is if you can repeat  
 the success consistently.


The funny thing is, I'm not in home ownership to make money.  I've lost  
about half of what I made on the previous sale, if I sold today.  But I  
don't care.  I just want a house to live in :)

The thing I see as a large barrier to home ownership is the down payment.   
If you can get into home ownership, at a good time when prices are low,  
then you are set pretty much forever.  But you have to have that large  
initial investment.

Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks, but you have to  
have the right goal.

-Steve
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 6:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks,


I have to strongly disagree about that. Buying/selling a stock is a mouse
click. 
Tax accounting is a one liner. Buying/selling a house is a major amount of
work. 
Heck, even once you have a deal, you have a stack of 30 or more papers you
gotta 
sign. Dealing with the taxes on it is a major amount of record keeping - 
especially if you make any capital improvements.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:33:26 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 6:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks,


 I have to strongly disagree about that. Buying/selling a stock is a  
 mouse click. Tax accounting is a one liner. Buying/selling a house is a  
 major amount of work. Heck, even once you have a deal, you have a stack  
 of 30 or more papers you gotta sign. Dealing with the taxes on it is a  
 major amount of record keeping - especially if you make any capital  
 improvements.


I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so much  
literalism here :)

-Steve
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so much
 literalism here :)


I'm going to disagree with that one, too!

Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:

1. trivial to buy and sell - a couple clicks
2. liquid - sell and get your money within minutes
3. trivial to borrow against - just write a check - no papers to sign
4. globally internationalized
5. fairly inflation proof
6. long term gains are fairly reliable
7. you can space out incremental sales in order to avoid a one-time boost into
a 
high tax bracket
8. you instantly know exactly what it's worth

A house:

1. hard to buy and sell
2. selling can easily be a year long process to get your money
3. hard to borrow against - need appraisals, approvals, piles of paperwork
4. it's literally nailed to one spot. location location location - bet wrong on 
that, and the economy will easily pass you by
5. reasonably inflation proof
6. long term gains again depend on location, location, location
7. no income averaging on a big gain
8. you never know what it's worth until you have a signed deed of sale, in
fact, 
its value can vary tremendously (+-30%) depending on who happens to be looking 
for a house like yours. Zillows has only a vague connection to reality, and is 
only really useful if you have a cookie cutter house in a cookie cutter
subdivision.

Yes, I own my home. But it blows as an easy, predictable investment.


You're not going to get a big score investing in SPY. But if you have a regular 
schedule of investing in it, over the long term, it's very very likely you'll
be 
just fine.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so  
 much
 literalism here :)


 I'm going to disagree with that one, too!

 Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:


If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm  
sure we can find some examples in your favor.  Shall I respond by  
comparing ALL POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained  
value for the last 50 years?

-Steve
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so much
 literalism here :)


 I'm going to disagree with that one, too!

 Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:


 If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm sure
 we can find some examples in your favor.  Shall I respond by comparing ALL
 POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the last 50
 years?


If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means!

BTW, SPY isn't a company. It is a tracker of the S&P 500, meaning it's 500 
stocks in one package. QQQ is the one for the Nasdaq, and DIA For the Dow 30.

http://investing.money.msn.com/investments/etf-list/?symbol=spy&ocid=qbeb

"The investment seeks to provide investment results that, before expenses, 
generally correspond to the price and yield performance of the S&P 500 Index. 
The Trust holds the Portfolio and cash and is not actively "managed" by 
traditional methods. To maintain the correspondence between the composition and 
weightings of Portfolio Securities and component stocks of the S&P 500 Index 
("Index Securities"), the Trustee adjusts the Portfolio from time to time to 
conform to periodic changes in the identity and/or relative weightings of Index 
Securities."
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
Why do those things pay dividends?
--bb


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Walter Bright
<newshound2 digitalmars.com>wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:


 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright <
 newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

  On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so
 much
 literalism here :)


 I'm going to disagree with that one, too!

 Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:


 If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm
 sure
 we can find some examples in your favor.  Shall I respond by comparing ALL
 POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the
 last 50
 years?


 If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means!

 BTW, SPY isn't a company. It is a tracker of the S&P 500, meaning it's 500
 stocks in one package. QQQ is the one for the Nasdaq, and DIA For the Dow
 30.

 http://investing.money.msn.**com/investments/etf-list/?**
 symbol=spy&ocid=qbeb<http://investing.money.msn.com/investments/etf-list/?symbol=spy&ocid=qbeb>

 "The investment seeks to provide investment results that, before expenses,
 generally correspond to the price and yield performance of the S&P 500
 Index. The Trust holds the Portfolio and cash and is not actively "managed"
 by traditional methods. To maintain the correspondence between the
 composition and weightings of Portfolio Securities and component stocks of
 the S&P 500 Index ("Index Securities"), the Trustee adjusts the Portfolio
 from time to time to conform to periodic changes in the identity and/or
 relative weightings of Index Securities."
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 1:53 PM, Bill Baxter wrote:

 Why do those things pay dividends?



S&P 500 companies pay dividends, and since you own a piece of them via SPY, you 
get paid those dividends.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:48:12 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright  
 <newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so  
 much
 literalism here :)


 I'm going to disagree with that one, too!

 Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:


 If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes  
 I'm sure
 we can find some examples in your favor.  Shall I respond by comparing  
 ALL
 POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the  
 last 50
 years?


 If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means!


I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P

-Steve
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent Bill Baxter <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
This was on NPR just this morning:
http://www.npr.org/2013/06/13/188979111/how-to-invest-in-real-estate-without-being-a-landlord
--bb


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer
<schveiguy yahoo.com>wrote:


 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:48:12 -0400, Walter Bright <
 newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

  On 6/13/2013 12:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright <
 newshound2 digitalmars.com>
 wrote:

  On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead.  Sheesh, so
 much
 literalism here :)


 I'm going to disagree with that one, too!

 Consider an S&P 500 index stock, like SPY. It's:


 If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes
 I'm sure
 we can find some examples in your favor.  Shall I respond by comparing
 ALL
 POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the
 last 50
 years?


 If you can show me an index fund on real estate, by all means!


 I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P

 -Steve
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 1:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P


Again, we were talking about the financial pros and cons of buying a house vs 
renting. The utility issue is therefore moot.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:18:58 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 1:56 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 I will when you can show me a stock you can live in :P


 Again, we were talking about the financial pros and cons of buying a  
 house vs renting. The utility issue is therefore moot.


That is where this started, but it's not what we were last discussing.   
The utility issue is not moot, it's never moot, because you have to live  
somewhere.

Unless you're lucky (?) enough to live in your parents' basement rent free.

-Steve
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 23:19:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Again, we were talking about the financial pros and cons of 
 buying a house vs renting. The utility issue is therefore moot.


The utility though is mathematically equivalent to the house 
cutting you a check each year for the difference of property 
taxes, insurance, and repairs and rent though. Which is virtually 
guaranteed to be a positive number because the landlord has to 
pay all that too, and presumably wants to turn a profit on top of 
it.

It is fair to balance that against the downsides of mortgage 
interest and equity loss, but even if we assume 100% of the 
principle is just flushed down the toilet, it is quite possible 
for the utility to still be worth it in dollar terms, especially 
over 30 or more years of living in the house.

Maybe not as big a gain as stocks or whatever, but also very low 
risk. Even safe stocks can dip right when you want to use it - 
imagine wanting to retire in 1930 - but you'll still be able to 
live in your house (and if it burns down, at least you have 
insurance so that isn't a total loss either).
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 7:14 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 The utility though is mathematically equivalent to the house cutting you a
check
 each year for the difference of property taxes, insurance, and repairs and rent
 though. Which is virtually guaranteed to be a positive number because the
 landlord has to pay all that too, and presumably wants to turn a profit on top
 of it.


Actually, real estate prices greatly outpaced the rents a few years ago, which 
is not surprisingly a strong sign of a bubble. It is not at all virtually 
guaranteed (not even remotely guaranteed) that rents will bring in more than
the 
cost of the building. (People building apartment buildings go bust all the
time.)

A landlord cannot simply charge more - he can only charge the market rate. 
Landlords will often accept a losing rent agreement just to avoid losing even 
more money with an empty unit.



 Maybe not as big a gain as stocks or whatever, but also very low risk. Even
safe
 stocks can dip right when you want to use it - imagine wanting to retire in
1930
 - but you'll still be able to live in your house (and if it burns down, at
least
 you have insurance so that isn't a total loss either).


I understand the argument, but I believe the risk is much higher than others 
perceive it to be.

Let's address the situation of having paid off the house, and owning it free
and 
clear. What it's "costing" you is the opportunity cost of the money you could 
sell the house for. If your house is worth $200,000, if you sold it and 
collected the $200,000, you could invest that money and get a return. Then, to 
do a proper comparison, you'd compare that return against the cost of renting.

Really, nothing fundamental changes once you pay off the mortgage.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 6/13/13 10:48 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
[snip]

This group is for disseminating news about D. Please do not use it for 
general and off-topic discussions, not even with the [OT] tag.


Thanks,

Andrei
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:51:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money 
 isn't reliably one of them.


I agreed with you until last year, but the very low mortgage 
interest rates and fitting in principle prepayments into my 
budget tipped me toward the other side. (Then the landlord 
jacking up the rent and giving me a bad attitude on a short 
notice inspection pushed me into calling the bank immediately - 
this is the biggest of the other advantages IMO, not having to 
deal with a landlord anymore!)

But, like with a lot of things, there's no substitute for doing 
your own math before making a decision.
Jun 11 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 2:20 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:51:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money isn't reliably one
 of them.


 I agreed with you until last year, but the very low mortgage interest rates and
 fitting in principle prepayments into my budget tipped me toward the other
side.
 (Then the landlord jacking up the rent and giving me a bad attitude on a short
 notice inspection pushed me into calling the bank immediately - this is the
 biggest of the other advantages IMO, not having to deal with a landlord
anymore!)

 But, like with a lot of things, there's no substitute for doing your own math
 before making a decision.


Yes, not having to deal with a landlord is one of the nice perques. On the
other 
hand, there's another landlord you can't get away from - the property tax
people 
and the zoning people and the permit people. You never really own it. If
there's 
an HOA, better read those covenants very, very carefully first.

I own the house I live in, I find it worthwhile for me. But I'm not under any 
delusion that it's some great financial investment. I've previously owned 4 
houses, and lost money on two of them (one of them pretty badly). If I sold my 
current one today, I'd lose a nice chunk on it.

Renting can be nice. For example, if your life circumstances change, or you
just 
want a change of scenery, you can just walk away from it.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent "bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer:


 I have no doubt that solar technology will continue to 
 innovate, but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize 
 it.  When it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its 
 own merits.


The situation is far more complex than that.

Bye,
bearophile
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years
for
 it.


 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!


 Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated
 electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex
 setups.


Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the advertisements, 
brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs.

I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the integral of the 
heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to migrate, and when it migrates
far 
enough the part fails.

PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight.

Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking.

If you're considering a PV system, I'd ask serious questions about the useful 
life of the system, and what maintenance is required (at a minimum, they'll
need 
the dirt and mold regularly cleaned off).

Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance you 
can get replacement parts for 20 years.
Jun 11 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 6/11/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance
 you
 can get replacement parts for 20 years.


I bet most companies don't even get to live 20 years. And usually the
older a product, the harder (i.e. more expensive) it is to fix it or
get spare parts (e.g. cars).
Jun 11 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 1:11 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 6/11/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance
 you
 can get replacement parts for 20 years.


 I bet most companies don't even get to live 20 years. And usually the
 older a product, the harder (i.e. more expensive) it is to fix it or
 get spare parts (e.g. cars).



Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new ones! But I think 
that's an anomaly.
Jun 11 2013
parent reply "Andrej Mitrovic" <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:47:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new 
 ones! But I think that's an anomaly.


I guess it totally depends on where you live. :)
Jun 11 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/11/2013 1:47 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:47:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new ones! But I think
 that's an anomaly.


 I guess it totally depends on where you live. :)


In the US.

For example, my daily driver is an '89 Bronco II. I can get a new radiator for 
$20, brake calipers for $80, etc. It's amazing how cheap it is to keep that old 
heap running in top condition.

Just try doing a brake job on a newer car. Ghastly prices.

For older cars, like my '72 Dodge, a vast industry has sprung up to manufacture 
replacement parts, from original to much, much improved ones. It's really
marvelous.

It is interesting how my old cars are far, far cheaper to keep running than
even 
regular maintenance on a newish one.
Jun 11 2013
parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:21:57 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 For example, my daily driver is an '89 Bronco II.


Had to look that up on wikipedia. Yikes, don't corner too fast in 
that thing, we need you alive!
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you 
 can wait 20 years for
 it.


 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!


 Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic 
 AFAIK. The associated
 electrical components may break however, especially on some of 
 the more complex
 setups.


 Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the 
 advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the 
 PVs.

 I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the 
 integral of the heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to 
 migrate, and when it migrates far enough the part fails.

 PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight.

 Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking.

 If you're considering a PV system, I'd ask serious questions 
 about the useful life of the system, and what maintenance is 
 required (at a minimum, they'll need the dirt and mold 
 regularly cleaned off).

 Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some 
 assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years.


A lot of the solar companies give great guarantees on the whole 
setup (assuming they don't go out of business of course). My 
parents have had theirs for ~5 years now with no problems at all, 
other than giving them a quick wipe once every few months and 
adjusting the angle for the seasons.
Admittedly, one has to consider that in the UK they very rarely 
get particularly hot. We also don't get particularly pronounced 
day/night temperature variation compared to some places.

There's probably some good data on the lifetimes somewhere.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you 
 can wait 20 years for
 it.


 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!


 Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic 
 AFAIK. The associated
 electrical components may break however, especially on some of 
 the more complex
 setups.


 Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the 
 advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the 
 PVs.


That's not correct. Almost all manufacturers provide a 20 or 30 
year warranty.
Warranty periods have been slowing increasing as the industry has 
gained field experience.



 I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the 
 integral of the heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to 
 migrate, and when it migrates far enough the part fails.


That's true for certain kinds of dopants (it's particularly true 
if you have copper involved), but dopant migration is not an 
issue for any commercial solar modules that I know of. (The 
situation may be different for exotic technologies). This is 
because solar cells are very simple devices, they're just 
enormous diodes.

Virtually all solar module failures in the field are caused by 
mechanical issues (bad solder joints, cracks, delamination), not 
by semiconductor degradation.



 PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight.


They do. Still not as hot as a CPU though!


 Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking.


Most of these problems were solved in the 80's.

We were continuously doing accelerated lifetime testing of our 
own modules and ones from various manufacturers. Temperature 
cycling, humidity freeze, hail impact testing (that's fun), wind 
load testing (that's really fun), etc.
For some silicon modules you can get oxygen-boron complexes 
induced by UV, which causes a slow reduction in power, but our 
modules survived 200 years equivalent UVB exposure with no 
degradation whatsoever.



 Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some 
 assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years.


That one is definitely true. Even worse is batteries for off-grid 
systems, batteries have a very short lifetime.
Jun 12 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/12/2013 1:04 AM, Don wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Note that none of the advertisements,
 brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs.


 That's not correct. Almost all manufacturers provide a 20 or 30 year warranty.
 Warranty periods have been slowing increasing as the industry has gained field
 experience.


Warranty is not the same as expected life, MTBF, etc.

Anyhow, thanks for weighing in with a great post!
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!


Here's the beauty of it though: the manufacturer offers a 25 year 
warranty! I've heard stories of PV panels from the 70's still 
working too. I betcha the lifetime depends on your local weather 
conditions and such, I know heat can damage them over time, which 
might be a positive for being here in a colder area.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent David <d dav1d.de> writes:
Am 11.06.2013 14:33, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
 
 
 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
 
 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
 
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
 
 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
 
 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
 
 
 Andrei


Regarding the IDE thing, did you ever try Kdevelop? Never crashed on me,
has syntax highlighting, really basic completion (based on already
written *words*, so really basic), but the amazing gdb integration known
from C/C++ works! Definitly worth a look.
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:33:03 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:


 Reddit: 
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
 
 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
 
 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
 
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
 
 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
 
 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
 
 
 Andrei


Torrents/links up:
http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/
Jun 11 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Juan Manuel Cabo <juanmanuel.cabo gmail.com> writes:
On 06/11/2013 09:33 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
 
 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
 
 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
 
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
 
 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
 
 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
 
 
 Andrei



Great talk!!!

Can't wait for faster CTFE, the new orange serialization
library would benefit from it.

--jm
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 06/11/2013 02:33 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


 Andrei


Nice talk.

I'd like to relativize the statement about JITing CTFE though.
This is feasible, even given issues such as global local variables. [1]

I have a byte code interpreter for most of CTFE. I have been 
unexpectedly busy lately, but hope to get my D frontend out the door in 
a more or less respectable state soon.


[1] Given that I understand the term correctly. Is this what you meant?:

int foo(int x){
   immutable globalLocal1 = 1;
   int globalLocal2 = x;
   int foo(bool first){return first?globalLocal1:globalLocal2;}
   enum y = foo(true);
   return foo(false)+y;
}
static assert(foo(2)==3);
Jun 12 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's 
not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. 
Basically just syntax highlighting. Most code editors support D these 
days. I also can't believe that just because an editor has support for D 
syntax highlighting will introduce more bugs. So is he saying that all 
editors are bad and crash?

I mostly use TextMate (Mac OS X only) when coding D. Having support for 
D certainly doesn't make it crash more. There are one or two problems 
with TextMate but that has nothing to do with D and are easily 
avoidable. It has crashed once or twice for me but not that many times 
that it's worth bring up like this.

Sublime Text is also a good text editor, available on Mac OS X, Linux 
and Windows. It's fast and stable as far as I'm aware.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 12 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a 
 lot.


 I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions 
 that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or 
 anything like that.


Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The 
point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the 
IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, 
and I'm begging the community to do something about it.
Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:31:04 UTC, Don wrote:

 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. 
 The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS 
 if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute 
 showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something 
 about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


What IDEs are crashing for you?

Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can 
imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler 
editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't 
crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't 
think it has ever crashed.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can 
 imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler 
 editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't 
 crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't 
 think it has ever crashed.


I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. Neither 
Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my smallish 
sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing 
vim or emacs :)

Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but 
that is somewhat different story.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander 
 wrote:

 Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can 
 imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler 
 editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't 
 crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't 
 think it has ever crashed.


 I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. 
 Neither Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my 
 smallish sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax 
 highlighting crashing vim or emacs :)

 Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but 
 that is somewhat different story.


Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses 
while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of 
them even have "modules of death" where just viewing the file 
will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those 
open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at 
startup...
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:

 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...


That doesn't surprise me.

I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a 
former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. 
I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it 
doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll 
through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or 
momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough.

http://www.sublimetext.com/
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:

 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing
 (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have "modules of
 death" where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky
 enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will
 crash at startup...


 That doesn't surprise me.

 I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev,
 and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it
 that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and
then
 you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or
 momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough.


Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked 
instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today, with 
machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 
second delays.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:53:38 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that 
 worked instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it 
 ironic that today, with machines 1000 times faster, some 
 vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 second delays.



about all software.

If a video game can simulate physics, render millions of 
triangles, stream multiple channels of audio, and process game 
logic and AI in under 16ms then your crappy text editor can at 
least have the decency to put a character on the screen when I 
press a key without having to wait multiple seconds.

 From a cold boot, the terminal I use, iTerm, can take upwards of 
10 seconds to start up before I can start entering commands.

People just don't care anymore.

In 1977, when Alan Kay was describing DynaBook (basically, the 
iPad) he said:

"There should be no discernible pause between cause
and effect. One of the metaphors we used when designing
such a system was that of a musical instrument, such as
a flute, which is owned by its user and responds
instantly and consistently to its owner's wishes. Imagine
the absurdity of a one-second delay between blowing a
note and hearing it!"

http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m1977001_dynamedia.pdf

35 years later and we now have the device he described, but the 
absurdity isn't imaginary.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:00:26 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 35 years later and we now have the device he described, but the 
 absurdity isn't imaginary.


The ipad amazes me. Not only is it brutally slow, but it 
crashes... a lot (the ipad 1 anyway, i've never seen the newer 
ones). Yet Apple has a reputation for quality. Maybe it is 
because their crashes just reset the device rather than giving an 
error message so people don't know whom to blame! idk.

Another slow, unstable device? The playstation 3. The games 
themselves run ok, but turning it on and switching apps on that 
home screen is just atrocious.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 11:00 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:

  From a cold boot, the terminal I use, iTerm, can take upwards of 10 seconds to
 start up before I can start entering commands.


The perennial problem with JITs.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 13/06/2013 17:53, Walter Bright wrote:

 Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked
 instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today,
 with machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to
 have 15 second delays.


We're talking about IDEs here, not mere code editors. There is a lot 
more going on in the application, much more potential functionality and 
more things for the IDE to analyze whilst the user works with the source.

That said, 15 second delays, are not acceptable, not at all!
But we are not "vendors": we're not selling a commercial product, nor a 
service, nor even are we getting paid to develop FOSS projects. This is 
something we work on our free time, and that greatly restricts the 
resources we have for that. And like Don said, in the D community 
there's still very few people working on IDEs, whereas the people and 
contributions for the compilers, Phobos and other librarys has increased 
significantly.

It may simply be that more people/contributions are necessary for a good 
level of quality be achieved/maintained.


-- 
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Peter Williams <pwil3058 bigpond.net.au> writes:
On 13/06/13 19:19, Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:

 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while
 typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even
 have "modules of death" where just viewing the file will cause a
 crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your
 default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup...


 That doesn't surprise me.

 I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former
 game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened
 binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch.
 Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at
 full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it
 highly enough.

 http://www.sublimetext.com/


Geany works well for me.  Syntax highlighting and a symbols navigation 
sidebar.  Plus there is a customizable "snippets" facility (e.g. type 
"class" hit TAB and you get the shell of a class formatted how you like 
it, etc) if you like that type of thing.

I believe that it's available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

Peter
PS On the subject of snippets, does any one know how to get a D specific 
.gitignore added to github's new repo interface?  Currently, I just ask 
for the C one but D not being in the list of offerings makes it look 
like a second class language.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:19:33 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:

 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...


 That doesn't surprise me.

 I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a 
 former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. 
 I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it 
 doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll 
 through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or 
 momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough.

 http://www.sublimetext.com/


Very good editor, but as of stability, this isn't the best? I ca, 
make it crash quite easily. However, ti is really fast, including 
recovery after crash.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:

 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...


https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/issues?state=open ;)

It does sound like a serious problem but I can hardly expect IDE 
maintainers to fix such stuff without having a bug reports.
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 12:39:49 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:

 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long 
 pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. 
 Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing 
 the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get 
 one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will 
 crash at startup...


 https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/issues?state=open ;)

 It does sound like a serious problem but I can hardly expect 
 IDE maintainers to fix such stuff without having a bug reports.


Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the 
talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than 
compiler bugs.

Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a state 
where you can just submit bug reports but keep using them. Not 
commercially.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 13:22:23 UTC, Don wrote:

 Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in 
 the talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than 
 compiler bugs.

 Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a 
 state where you can just submit bug reports but keep using 
 them. Not commercially.


I have not yet managed to watch the talk (queued!), just noticed 
the comment that got my attention :( Sorry about that. My point 
is - they are stable enough so that you may not even encounter a 
crash for months or more unless you start using on some real code 
base extensively. No way it can be improved without bug reports. 
I don't ask you to use them - just check time to time and file 
issues found. Isn't it how mainstream D development works?

The fact that Mono-D currently has _zero_ crash bugs reported & 
open is really surprising to me given comments in this thread. 
Judging by my experience Alex is a very responsive guy when it 
comes to fixing/tweaking Mono-D but he will need some details for 
sure.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 06/13/2013 06:22 AM, Don wrote:


 Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk
 is:


Judging from most of the posts on this thread, your talk was about solar 
panels. :p

Ali
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:36:11 Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 06/13/2013 06:22 AM, Don wrote:

 Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk


 

 is:


 Judging from most of the posts on this thread, your talk was about solar
 panels. :p


LOL. Yeah. That and the housing market. The actual talk has had very little 
discussion here. :(

- Jonathan M Davis
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:27:11 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :(


In my defense, Andrei did say to try to drive discussion on the 
social channels, so I posted my more on-topic comments to Reddit.
Jun 13 2013
parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 20:29:34 Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:27:11 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :(


 
 In my defense, Andrei did say to try to drive discussion on the
 social channels, so I posted my more on-topic comments to Reddit.


Well, the fact that other discussions popped up isn't necessarily a problem. 
It's just a pity that there's been so little discussion about the talk itself. 
There wasn't a ton of talk in reddit either, but there was definitely quite a 
bit more there than here. I feel particularly sorry for Stefan Rohe's talk 
though. The _only_ comment that it got on reddit was Walter's post for the 
abstract. It's gotten more discussion here though.

- Jonathan M Davis
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 13/06/2013 10:05, Don wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can imagine
 MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler editors like
 Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't crash. I've been
 using Sublime Text for years now and I don't think it has ever crashed.


 I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. Neither
 Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my smallish
 sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim
 or emacs :)

 Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but that
 is somewhat different story.


 Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while
 typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have
 "modules of death" where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If
 you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace
 file, the IDE will crash at startup...


Regarding DDT, do you mean a crash were actually the Eclipse application 
terminates? I find that highly unlikely, the whole codebase of Eclipse 
DDT is Java based so there should not be a crash like that (baring some 
old JVM bug, but even so...).

A freeze is possible, if there's some infinite loop bug, or some massive 
slowdown due to a crappy algorithm (quadratic growth or worse)

As a DDT maintaner I've never had a bug report, or even heard of such 
crashes. I can't guess people's minds..., and I skip most newsgroups 
threads if the title doesn't seem relevant. It was actually only by 
chance that I found this subthread discussing IDEs.

I have heard about long pauses and delays, that I have. It's something 
that needs to be looked at, it's a massive issue. Even so I've never had 
any concrete bug report on such performance issues. Or even someone 
mentioned a concrete file I could take a look at and see if using 
autocomplete there was slow and unresponsive.

My work on a new parser for DDT is nearly complete, a new version should 
be out soonish. And from now onwards it should be possible to tackle 
these issues.
I do agree frequent crashes and long pauses should take precedence over 
nearly all other issues.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or 
 emacs :)


The syntax highlighting has actually bogged down vim for me in 
the past. I had a file with a large array in it (hundreds of 
lines), and scrolling over those lines caused vim to stutter at 
about 1fps.
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 2:22 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:

 The syntax highlighting has actually bogged down vim for me in the past. I had
a
 file with a large array in it (hundreds of lines), and scrolling over those
 lines caused vim to stutter at about 1fps.


Back in the Bad Old DOS days, I had trouble with that with my text editor. The 
solution was to implement cooperative multitasking, where the computation of
the 
display was disconnected from the command processing. The display computation 
would regularly check to see if it was obsolete, and start over if it was. 
Command handling always preempted. It worked like a champ, making the editor 
nice and crisp.
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com>  
wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


 I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's  
 not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.


 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point  
 is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes.  
 It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the  
 community to do something about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those are  
just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply  
customisable highlighting BTW).

What are the basic features you would require of a development  
environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept  
of a text editor, such as:

- The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files  
which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to  
find/select/edit individual files

- The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing  
"dmd ..." or similar.

...

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Colin Grogan" <grogan.colin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don 
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
 wrote:

 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D 
 a lot.


 I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions 
 that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring 
 or anything like that.


 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. 
 The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS 
 if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute 
 showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something 
 about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, 
 those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly 
 flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW).

 What are the basic features you would require of a development 
 environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the 
 basic concept of a text editor, such as:

 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source 
 files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it 
 easier to find/select/edit individual files

 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" 
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.

 ...

 R


How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub?

I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I 
imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan <grogan.colin gmail.com>  
wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don  
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


 I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's  
 not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like  
 that.


 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The  
 point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE  
 crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm  
 begging the community to do something about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those are  
 just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply  
 customisable highlighting BTW).

 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic  
 concept of a text editor, such as:

 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files  
 which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to  
 find/select/edit individual files

 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"  
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.

 ...

 R


 How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub?

 I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine  
 it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...


Or, a plugin for an existing editor.
Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way.

All good ideas.

What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements  
beyond stability, in other words trying to define the goal posts to work  
towards.

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:35:08 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan 
 <grogan.colin gmail.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don 
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
 wrote:

 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help 
 D a lot.


 I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions 
 that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring 
 or anything like that.


 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right 
 now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY 
 WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an 
 absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do 
 something about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, 
 those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly 
 flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW).

 What are the basic features you would require of a 
 development environment, I am thinking of features which go 
 beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as:

 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of 
 source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to 
 make it easier to find/select/edit individual files

 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like 
 "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar.

 ...

 R


 How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub?

 I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, 
 I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...


 Or, a plugin for an existing editor.
 Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a 
 certain way.

 All good ideas.

 What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal 
 requirements beyond stability,


Must not be worse than Notepad. <g>
I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at 
this point.
I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line 
guy.

D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or 
three working on IDEs. We need a couple more.
And that's really all I'm saying.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 1:12 PM, Don wrote:

 Must not be worse than Notepad. <g>


May I present MicroEmacs:

https://github.com/DigitalMars/med
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 22:42, Walter Bright wrote:


 May I present MicroEmacs:

 https://github.com/DigitalMars/med


Only Linux and Windows support?

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 11:40 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-06-13 22:42, Walter Bright wrote:


 May I present MicroEmacs:

 https://github.com/DigitalMars/med


 Only Linux and Windows support?


Others are trivially added if anyone cares.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 22:12, Don wrote:


 Must not be worse than Notepad. <g>
 I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this point.
 I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy.


Give Sublime a try.


 D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three
 working on IDEs. We need a couple more.
 And that's really all I'm saying.


I agree.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 21:12:31 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com>  
wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:35:08 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan  
 <grogan.colin gmail.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don  
 <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Reddit:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/


 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter:  
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.


 I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that  
 he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything  
 like that.


 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The  
 point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the  
 IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper,  
 and I'm begging the community to do something about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those  
 are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and  
 simply customisable highlighting BTW).

 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic  
 concept of a text editor, such as:

 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files  
 which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to  
 find/select/edit individual files

 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"  
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.

 ...

 R


 How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub?

 I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I  
 imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...


 Or, a plugin for an existing editor.
 Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain  
 way.

 All good ideas.

 What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements  
 beyond stability,


 Must not be worse than Notepad. <g>
 I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this  
 point.


Ok.. but that doesn't give ppl anything to aim for as a starting point..


 I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy.


So you write all your code using "copy con"?  :p  So, you use vi?


 D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three  
 working on IDEs. We need a couple more.
 And that's really all I'm saying.


Valid point, but to get more people interested I think we need a concrete  
goal and/or a list of faults with the existing competition.

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 What are the basic features you would require of a development environment,
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 What are the basic features you would require of a development 
 environment,






didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if 
not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of 
you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or 
remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels 
like trying to do web browsing via the command line.

Intellisense is a definite must, and proper intellisense, i.e. 
actually shows me what members a variable has, and not just some 
crappy lookup in the current file for potential members. Needs to 
work with templates, macros etc. as well.

"Go to definition" and "Find all references" are must haves as 
well. Again, they need to work properly, not just some half-assed 
grep script that throws up lots of false positives. Again, needs 
to work with templates, macros, etc.

Basically, if the intellisense doesn't use a complete parser and 
semantic analyser then it probably isn't up to scratch.
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 21:39:17 Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 What are the basic features you would require of a development
 environment,


 



 

 didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if
 not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of
 you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or
 remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels
 like trying to do web browsing via the command line.


The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in 
that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical 
debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical 
debuggers out of the water in terms of power.

It would probably be best if the two could be properly combined so that all of 
stuff that does better graphically is done in a proper graphical debugger, but 
you have a command-line interface integrated into it for the more advanced 
stuff. You can at least sort of get that with some front-ends to gdb, but their 
graphical portion is never as good as it should be IMHO. Visual Studio 
definitely wins in that area.

- Jonathan M Davis
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly 
 interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant 
 in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to 
 blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.


What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?

Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for 
advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced 
stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does 
(printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary 
types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data 
breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.)
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent reply Johannes Pfau <nospam example.com> writes:
Am Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:30:24 +0200
schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly 
 interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant 
 in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to 
 blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.


 
 What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?


Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers? I found
this quite useful when debugging unit test failures related to floating
point code in gdc. info float shows the contents of the floating point
stack, status register and control register.

I know gdb is scriptable with python but I never used that.
Batch execution of commands is especially nice when used with dustmite
(https://github.com/CyberShadow/DustMite/wiki/Detecting-a-specific-segfault).
Jun 13 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-14 07:48, Johannes Pfau wrote:


 Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers? I found
 this quite useful when debugging unit test failures related to floating
 point code in gdc. info float shows the contents of the floating point
 stack, status register and control register.

 I know gdb is scriptable with python but I never used that.
 Batch execution of commands is especially nice when used with dustmite
 (https://github.com/CyberShadow/DustMite/wiki/Detecting-a-specific-segfault).


LLDB is pretty advanced as well. The biggest benefit there is the 
integration with the compiler. I've watched some of the WWDC videos and 
you can do pretty cool stuff.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 05:48:17 UTC, Johannes Pfau wrote:

 Am Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:30:24 +0200
 schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:

 What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?


 Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers?


Yes, Debug->Windows->Registers. A window with all the register 
values in it.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 22:30:25 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
 wrote:

 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are 
 fairly interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant 
 in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends 
 to blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.


 What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?

 Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for 
 advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced 
 stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does 
 (printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary 
 types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data 
 breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.)


The only thing that GDB can do that Visual Studio does not offer 
is a REPL like environment for C and C++ code. Visual Studio 
immediate window only supports managed languages properly.

Everything else, VS wins hands down, specially when debugging 
data structures (thanks to visualizers) or 
multithreading/parallel code.

--
Paulo
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 22:30:25 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't?

 Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for 
 advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced 
 stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does 
 (printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary 
 types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data 
 breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.)


Does Visual Studio debugger have some sort of scripts/macros? 
When I was in a small kernel dev related team, we had a lot of 
own utility macros for gdb to help debug kernel core dumps, 
especially for messy cases like stack corruption.
Jun 14 2013
parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:55 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 Does Visual Studio debugger have some sort of scripts/macros? 
 When I was in a small kernel dev related team, we had a lot of 
 own utility macros for gdb to help debug kernel core dumps, 
 especially for messy cases like stack corruption.


Yeah, you can script VS, although I haven't used it.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 22:18, Jonathan M Davis wrote:


 The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in
 that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical
 debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical
 debuggers out of the water in terms of power.

 It would probably be best if the two could be properly combined so that all of
 stuff that does better graphically is done in a proper graphical debugger, but
 you have a command-line interface integrated into it for the more advanced
 stuff. You can at least sort of get that with some front-ends to gdb, but their
 graphical portion is never as good as it should be IMHO. Visual Studio
 definitely wins in that area.


All graphical debuggers I have used (Eclipse, Xcode) are using GDB or 
LLDB as a backend. They all provide a command line for entering commands 
directly.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 21:39, Peter Alexander wrote:



 Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has,
 but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you
 don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using
 gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the
 command line.


LLDB uses a far more consistent and logical structured commands than 
GDB. Although it doesn't support D.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:39:17 +0100, Peter Alexander  
<peter.alexander.au gmail.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment,






 Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has,  
 but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you  
 don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using  
 gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the  
 command line.


Agreed 100% - totally forgot about integrated debugging it's probably my  



 Intellisense is a definite must, and proper intellisense, i.e. actually  
 shows me what members a variable has, and not just some crappy lookup in  
 the current file for potential members. Needs to work with templates,  
 macros etc. as well.


Meh, I could go either way on this, provided I have..


 "Go to definition" and "Find all references" are must haves as well.  
 Again, they need to work properly, not just some half-assed grep script  
 that throws up lots of false positives. Again, needs to work with  
 templates, macros, etc.




R

-- 
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Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:49:09 +0100, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote:

 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment,





I could go either way with intellisense.  Sometimes I need a hand  
remembering what I'm doing, but mostly I'm just fine.  What bugs me more  
is using an editor with no F1 -> go to documentation for this function or  
no F12 -> take me to the definition of this symbol.  Those are invaluable  
- providing the help system doesn't take 10 years to load I'm looking at  
you (all versions of MSVC post 6).

R

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Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100
"Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> wrote:

 
 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those
 are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and
 simply customisable highlighting BTW).
 
 What are the basic features you would require of a development  
 environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic
 concept of a text editor, such as:
 
 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source
 files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier
 to find/select/edit individual files
 
 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.
 


I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my development for
the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting
editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, and
"click an error to jump to it's line in the source". And I've never had
it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of resources,
ever.

(It also supports ctags, although I've never used it.)
Jun 14 2013
next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 22:35:02 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100
 "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> wrote:

 
 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, 
 those
 are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly 
 flexibly and
 simply customisable highlighting BTW).
 
 What are the basic features you would require of a development
  environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the 
 basic
 concept of a text editor, such as:
 
 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source
 files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it 
 easier
 to find/select/edit individual files
 
 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.
 


 I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my 
 development for
 the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting
 editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, 
 and
 "click an error to jump to it's line in the source". And I've 
 never had
 it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of 
 resources,
 ever.

 (It also supports ctags, although I've never used it.)


Geany is also nice. It's slightly more IDE-like than the above 
but is still very lightweight and simple.
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 23:34:56 +0100, Nick Sabalausky  
<SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:


 On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100
 "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> wrote:

 I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those
 are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and
 simply customisable highlighting BTW).

 What are the basic features you would require of a development
 environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic
 concept of a text editor, such as:

 - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source
 files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier
 to find/select/edit individual files

 - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile"
 executing "dmd ..." or similar.


 I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my development for
 the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting
 editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, and
 "click an error to jump to it's line in the source". And I've never had
 it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of resources,
 ever.


Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a  
parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO.

R

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Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 17 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-17 10:39, Regan Heath wrote:


 Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a
 parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO.


I have that in TextMate :)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 17 2013
parent Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Jacob Carlborg, el 17 de June a las 12:42 me escribiste:

 On 2013-06-17 10:39, Regan Heath wrote:
 

Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a
parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO.


 
 I have that in TextMate :)


Same in VIM.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can try the best you can
If you try the best you can
The best you can is good enough
Jun 17 2013
prev sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 23:34:56 +0100, Nick Sabalausky  
<SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:

 "click an error to jump to it's line in the source".


Is there a hotkey for this? .. it's little things like having a  
configurable hotkey (so I can make it F4 like in MSVC that make or break a  
new IDE/editor IMO).

R

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Jun 17 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 09:31, Don wrote:


 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point
 is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes.
 It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the
 community to do something about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


We have no chance of fixing anything if you don't tell us which IDE's 
are crashing.

Have you used Sublime, does that crash?

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Jacob Carlborg, el 13 de June a las 13:07 me escribiste:

 On 2013-06-13 09:31, Don wrote:
 

Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point
is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes.
It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the
community to do something about it.
Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


 
 We have no chance of fixing anything if you don't tell us which
 IDE's are crashing.


I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call
an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany moderately
successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC,
the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files
(files that made the IDE crash consistently).

I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are
quite behind (at least in Linux).

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TIGRE SE COMIO A EMPLEADO DE CIRCO: DETUVIERON A DUEÑO Y DOMADOR
	-- Crónica TV
Jun 13 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote:


 I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call
 an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany moderately
 successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC,
 the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files
 (files that made the IDE crash consistently).

 I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are
 quite behind (at least in Linux).


I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want 
codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just 
wants something better than Notepad that is stable. If that's your 
requirements then you don't need an IDE, just an editor with syntax 
highlighting for D.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 13 2013
parent reply "Don" <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote:


 I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you 
 typically call
 an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany 
 moderately
 successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono 
 plugins. IIRC,
 the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and 
 death-files
 (files that made the IDE crash consistently).

 I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but 
 IDEs are
 quite behind (at least in Linux).


 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want 
 codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said 
 he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable.


I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are 
consistently misunderstanding me.

The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong 
with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they 
don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem 
is much more severe:
  Mono-D is not as good as Notepad.
  EclipseD is not as good as Notepad.
Because they are unstable.
Jun 14 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote:

 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't 
 want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he 
 said he just wants something better than Notepad that is 
 stable.


 I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are 
 consistently misunderstanding me.

 The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong 
 with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they 
 don't have good refactoring support or something. But the 
 problem is much more severe:
  Mono-D is not as good as Notepad.
  EclipseD is not as good as Notepad.
 Because they are unstable.


What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want 
refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not 
just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable?

That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so 
that they could suggest stable editors that had those features. 
If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are 
not good choices.
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:05:27 Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote:

 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't
 want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he
 said he just wants something better than Notepad that is
 stable.


 
 I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are
 consistently misunderstanding me.
 
 The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong
 with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they
 don't have good refactoring support or something. But the
 
 problem is much more severe:
  Mono-D is not as good as Notepad.
  EclipseD is not as good as Notepad.
 
 Because they are unstable.


 
 What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want
 refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not
 just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable?
 
 That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so
 that they could suggest stable editors that had those features.
 If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are
 not good choices.


I don't think that it's that he doesn't want them. It's that they don't matter 
until the IDE is stable enough that it doesn't crash. If it crashes, it 
doesn't matter what else it can do. But once it's stable enough that it 
doesn't crash and you can actually use it, _then_ you can discuss what other 
cool features it should have. Until then, it's worse than notepad.

- Jonathan M Davis
Jun 14 2013
parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:51:57 +0100, Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com>  
wrote:


 On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:05:27 Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote:

 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't
 want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he
 said he just wants something better than Notepad that is
 stable.


 I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are
 consistently misunderstanding me.

 The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong
 with D's IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they
 don't have good refactoring support or something. But the

 problem is much more severe:
  Mono-D is not as good as Notepad.
  EclipseD is not as good as Notepad.

 Because they are unstable.


 What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want
 refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not
 just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable?

 That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so
 that they could suggest stable editors that had those features.
 If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are
 not good choices.


 I don't think that it's that he doesn't want them. It's that they don't  
 matter
 until the IDE is stable enough that it doesn't crash. If it crashes, it
 doesn't matter what else it can do. But once it's stable enough that it
 doesn't crash and you can actually use it, _then_ you can discuss what  
 other
 cool features it should have. Until then, it's worse than notepad.


I understood (t)his point the first time he made it.

Lets assume we're in the development team for Notepad and we're trying to  
make it into the best D IDE in town.  Lets assume stability is a solved  
problem.  What's the next feature we work on?

That's the Q we/I want answered so someone out there on the ether can  
either suggest an editor that meets the criteria or someone will be  
inspired to write one.

R

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Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Regan Heath" <regan netmail.co.nz> writes:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:40:40 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash nospam.com>  
wrote:


 On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote:


 I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically  
 call
 an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany  
 moderately
 successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC,
 the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files
 (files that made the IDE crash consistently).

 I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are
 quite behind (at least in Linux).


 I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want  
 codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just  
 wants something better than Notepad that is stable.


 I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently  
 misunderstanding me.

 The question in the talk was along the lines of "what's wrong with D's  
 IDEs". And people expected the problem was that they don't have good  
 refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe:
   Mono-D is not as good as Notepad.
   EclipseD is not as good as Notepad.
 Because they are unstable.


Notepad++ is better than notepad:
http://notepad-plus-plus.org/download/v6.3.3.html

Windows only tho I'm afraid.

R

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Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 14/06/2013 08:40, Don wrote:

   EclipseD is not as good as Notepad.
 Because they are unstable.


Just so we are absolutely clear, are you a talking about the current DDT 
project: http://code.google.com/p/ddt/ (formerly known as Mmrnmhrm)
or EclipseD: http://www.dsource.org/projects/eclipsed which was formerly 
know as DDT, but is an *ancient* project, it was abandoned even before 
Descent and Mmrnmhrm came out.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Jun 14 2013
prev sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <code klickverbot.at> writes:
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:31:04 UTC, Don wrote:

 Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. 
 The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS 
 if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute 
 showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something 
 about it.
 Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.


Link to bug reports?
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Szymon Gatner" <noemail gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 12:33:03 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Reddit: 
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/

 Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237

 Twitter: 
 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785

 Facebook: 
 https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181

 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY

 Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a 
 lot.


 Andrei


Awesome talk, really inspiring. Great to see a D a success in 
commercial environment. I would love to make a switch to D 
already (from C++), learning it now, following all the updates 
and waiting for ARM support. Can't wait! I mean it, I actually 
miss not being able to switch now :P
Jun 13 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
Have finally watched it. Great talk and good jokes! :)

One topic I'd like to hear more about is memory management 
techniques. It was told that only very small amount of garbage is 
generated and managed by GC, most code avoids heap allocations at 
all. Is this somehow enforced (tooling, code review, etc.) or 
simply judged by a common sense? Is keeping such restriction 
easier in D1 than in D2?
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Dicebot, el 14 de June a las 09:46 me escribiste:

 Have finally watched it. Great talk and good jokes! :)
 
 One topic I'd like to hear more about is memory management
 techniques. It was told that only very small amount of garbage is
 generated and managed by GC, most code avoids heap allocations at
 all. Is this somehow enforced (tooling, code review, etc.) or simply
 judged by a common sense?


I would say is enforced by reality. If we have a "leak" we find out
sooner than later. Of course, having that experience people is extra
careful when coding now about those issues. We are starting to implement
code review as the team gets bigger, which also help to detect these
problems earlier.


 Is keeping such restriction easier in D1 than in D2?


Yes, but is because of Tango, not D1. Almost every function that needs
to allocate takes an optional buffer to work on (and for the ones that
didn't we wrote replacements that used this scheme). That makes the
programmer automatically aware of this buffer reusing. I think, same as
Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to completely avoid
phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation.

We even sometimes reuse exceptions to avoid allocating when something
throws.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Todos en el mundo somos grasas, no hago distinción de sexo y raza, sólo
que algunos lo disfrutan y otros no pueden evitarlo.
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-14 15:37, Leandro Lucarella wrote:


 I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to
completely avoid
 phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation.


Tango is available for D2 as well :)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 14 2013
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <luca llucax.com.ar> writes:
Jacob Carlborg, el 14 de June a las 16:18 me escribiste:

 On 2013-06-14 15:37, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
 

I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to
completely avoid
phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation.


 
 Tango is available for D2 as well :)


Yes, I know. BTW, how many people is using it (if any)? If some could
share the experience it would be appreciated.

But anyway, the point is, it would be nice to be able to use the
standard library and it would be nice if the standard library could
cover the use case of people that can afford to have a lot of heap
activity. It doesn't seem to be a very specific use case, at least not
for commercial use, at least is the impression I got in the conference.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CHINO ATRAPA COTORRAS
	-- Crónica TV
Jun 14 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-06-14 23:09, Leandro Lucarella wrote:


 Yes, I know. BTW, how many people is using it (if any)? If some could
 share the experience it would be appreciated.


I use it :). My experience so far is if you don't take advantage of 
these buffers it can be a bit annoying. The reason is that most 
functions either return T[] or const(T)[]. If you use "string" in the 
rest of your code you cannot easily store a returned value to a "string" 
variable. I guess some of those could be fixed by returning inout(T)[] 
instead.

Otherwise I think it's working good.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 15 2013
prev sibling parent "Joakim" <joakim airpost.net> writes:
Great talk, good to see someone talking about their real-world 
experience with D and Don kept it entertaining.

A quibble though: the title is horrible, as the talk has very 
little to do with metaprogramming, and those who aren't 
interested in the current title will just skip the talk.

A better, more accurate title and description might take it from 
the fourth-most viewed video to the most popular video, of those 
released so far.
Jun 14 2013