www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D.announce - no frames

reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Improvement? Keep it?

www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
Aug 21 2005
next sibling parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:23:22 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>  
wrote:


 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


I'm still seeing frames (meaning I have 2 menus).

The downside to not having the menu in a frame is that when you scroll the  
page you scroll the menu. Thus was born that abomination "the floating  
menu".

Regan
Aug 21 2005
parent Don Clugston <dac nospam.com.au> writes:
Regan Heath wrote:

 On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:23:22 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>  
 wrote:
 

 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


 
 
 I'm still seeing frames (meaning I have 2 menus).
 
 The downside to not having the menu in a frame is that when you scroll 
 the  page you scroll the menu. Thus was born that abomination "the 
 floating  menu".
 
 Regan


Regan,
It's only index.html that is still a frame.
  try
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/lex.html

Actually, the thing I really dislike about frames is when you link to an 
external site, eg the 'D links' page.

Huge improvement, IMHO.
I like it.
Aug 21 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:23:22 -0700, Walter wrote:


 Improvement? Keep it?
 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


Yes an improvement, though I didn't have a problem with frames. It looks
cleaner, neater and pleasant. The thing I still miss is a decent index for
each of the sections "Language" and "Phobos". Especially for Phobos as
often I want to look up the details of a something and all I know is its
name (or near enough) but not sure which module its in. 

I suppose someone can write a quick program to read all the phobos files
and generate some HTML as an index. 

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
22/08/2005 4:38:50 PM
Aug 21 2005
next sibling parent zwang <nehzgnaw gmail.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:23:22 -0700, Walter wrote:
 
 

Improvement? Keep it?

www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


 
 
 Yes an improvement, though I didn't have a problem with frames. It looks
 cleaner, neater and pleasant. The thing I still miss is a decent index for
 each of the sections "Language" and "Phobos". Especially for Phobos as
 often I want to look up the details of a something and all I know is its
 name (or near enough) but not sure which module its in. 
 
 I suppose someone can write a quick program to read all the phobos files
 and generate some HTML as an index. 
 


I often run into the same situation. Without an index, I have to grep.
Aug 21 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Derek Parnell" <derek psych.ward> wrote in message
news:w8hyxgsmjwsw.1ppqyva5z35bq$.dlg 40tude.net...

 I suppose someone can write a quick program to read all the phobos files
 and generate some HTML as an index.


Want to take a whack at it? It could be done as a melding of wc and the html
preprocessor.
Aug 22 2005
parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:04:48 -0700, Walter wrote:


 "Derek Parnell" <derek psych.ward> wrote in message
 news:w8hyxgsmjwsw.1ppqyva5z35bq$.dlg 40tude.net...

 I suppose someone can write a quick program to read all the phobos files
 and generate some HTML as an index.


 
 Want to take a whack at it? It could be done as a melding of wc and the html
 preprocessor.


Actually I've already started on something. It's a little more generic in
that it will read a set of HTML files and produce a 'significant' word
index for the whole set. 

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
22/08/2005 6:35:45 PM
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent "ElfQT" <dethjunk yahoo.com> writes:
 I suppose someone can write a quick program to read all the phobos files
 and generate some HTML as an index.


Why not D/phobos/any other libs use something similar to "XML Comment" (Try

(Means a standardized and unambiguous way to comment on class, methods,
parameters and more.)
Help generation is much simpler then (and also, it would be really a big
thing, to use a (future) editor, where phobos (or other) calasses and
function information just pops up...)
Pretty pretty please...

ElfQT
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:23:22 -0700, Walter wrote:
 

 Improvement? Keep it?

 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


 
 Yes an improvement, though I didn't have a problem with frames. It looks
 cleaner, neater and pleasant.


<snip>

But still laden with the flaws I pointed out before from here on:

http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?digitalmars.D/23990

Not to mention inconsistent fonts, an empty std_base64.html and still 
more pages that have been left out of the conversion:

- the techtips pages (which are in www.digitalmars.com/techtips not 
www.digitalmars.com/d but are clearly D-oriented - so what's supposed to 
happen here?)
- dnews.html
- builtin.html
- newsgroup archives

That reminds me Derek - you were going have a go at tidying up the 
pages.  How far have you got with it?

Stewart.

-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- a->--- UB  P+ L E  W++  N+++ o K- w++  O? M V? PS- PE- Y? 
PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on 
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Aug 23 2005
parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:09:17 +0100, Stewart Gordon wrote:


 That reminds me Derek - you were going have a go at tidying up the 
 pages.  How far have you got with it?


I had a go at it but it's a lot of work patching things up like that. I
must of got rid of my efforts because I can't locate them now.

It needed a good revamp with CSS usage. It would be best (read:
economically) done with some form of generator that holds the content and
is applied over some template system. 

I've just about finished the automatic indexing tool, just some tidying up
to do now.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
24/08/2005 12:54:30 AM
Aug 23 2005
next sibling parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:09:17 +0100, Stewart Gordon wrote:
 

 That reminds me Derek - you were going have a go at tidying up the 
 pages.  How far have you got with it?


 
 I had a go at it but it's a lot of work patching things up like that. I 
 must of got rid of my efforts because I can't locate them now.
 
 It needed a good revamp with CSS usage. It would be best (read: 
 economically) done with some form of generator that holds the content and 
 is applied over some template system.


Do you mean a tool to compile HTML files from some source documentation 
format?  I'm not sure this is necessary.  HTML isn't that complicated. 
But maybe if we feel the need, something like this could be done at a 
later stage.

If you don't want to do it anymore, I'll give it a go.  Here's an idea: 
I'll take one of the pages home to work on, write a stylesheet and then 
post the result here.  When this is done, if it's OK with everyone then 
we can work on getting the others converted.


 I've just about finished the automatic indexing tool, just some tidying up 
 to do now.


Excellent!

Stewart.

-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- a->--- UB  P+ L E  W++  N+++ o K- w++  O? M V? PS- PE- Y? 
PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on 
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Aug 23 2005
parent reply Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
<snip>

 If you don't want to do it anymore, I'll give it a go.  Here's an idea: 
 I'll take one of the pages home to work on, write a stylesheet and then 
 post the result here.  When this is done, if it's OK with everyone then 
 we can work on getting the others converted.


<snip>

Attached is what I've ended up with.

Changes implemented:

- Cleaned up markup in the navigation header and sidebar a bit.  This 
should be replicated on all pages, with only the content of the sidebar 
below the <hr> varying from section to section.  Used <ul> rather than 

bullet shape/size in CSS, but I'm not sure what it is.

- Enclosed all paragraphs in <p> tags, and got rid of the misplaced ones.

- Replaced tables used to delimit code with simple <pre>, using CSS to 
format.

- Removed indentation of whole portions of code (and added a bit of 
indentation in the stylesheet), and replaced tab characters used to lay 
out code with spaces.

- Tried to tweak code comments so that line lengths are within the 
800x600 settings of my Windows box.  Almost succeeded but not quite.

- Run through spellchecker.  Not that there was much to fix on this 
particular page, but there's certainly plenty on others.

Open issues:

- What maximum line length should we adhere to for the code examples on 
the site?

- I haven't as yet got rid of all the presentational HTML markup, but at 
least what remains is more run of the mill.  Like using a table to lay 
out the page, and the frequency of <b> and <i> tags - we could replace 
some of them with something more logical, but others are harder to deal 
with short of wordier <span> elements.

Stewart.

-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- a->--- UB  P+ L E  W++  N+++ o K- w++  O? M V? PS- PE- Y? 
PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on 
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Aug 24 2005
next sibling parent Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:
<snip>

 Attached is what I've ended up with.


Oops, I meant to run it through the validator before posting it!  The 
only errors were three instances of <h3> improperly nested inside <a>. 
But it's simple to fix

     <h3><a name="typedef">Type Defining</a></h3>

and now the page is valid HTML.

Stewart.

-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- a->--- UB  P+ L E  W++  N+++ o K- w++  O? M V? PS- PE- Y? 
PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on 
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Aug 24 2005
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

D Programming Language - DeclarationsThanks, I've incorporated many of =

although the font winds up the same size as in the old scheme, it takes =
up much more vertical space. Perhaps this is correctible with the style =
sheet, but I don't know how.
Aug 24 2005
parent Brad Anderson <brad dsource.dot.org> writes:
Walter wrote:

 Thanks, I've incorporated many of your fixes. I balked at the

 the same size as in the old scheme, it takes up much more vertical
 space. Perhaps this is correctible with the style sheet, but I don't
 know how.


http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_list.asp
Aug 26 2005
prev sibling parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Derek Parnell" <derek psych.ward> wrote in message
news:qwaaf2ne46kc.1az2ivuqb6rt0$.dlg 40tude.net...

 It needed a good revamp with CSS usage. It would be best (read:
 economically) done with some form of generator that holds the content and
 is applied over some template system.


Currently, the pages *are* generated using a simple text macro preprocessor
I wrote. It sure makes it a heck of a lot easier to manage hundreds of
pages.
Aug 23 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent John Demme <me teqdruid.com> writes:
Improvement.  Keep it.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:23:22 -0700, Walter wrote:


 Improvement? Keep it?
 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent "Uwe Salomon" <post uwesalomon.de> writes:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:23:22 +0200, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>  
wrote:


 Improvement? Keep it?


Yes, very good!

Ciao
uwe
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Dejan Lekic <leka entropy.tmok.com> writes:
Mr. Bright,
IMHO You should redesign DM website according to design provided by Trevor
Parscal (he submitted it few months ago). - It was really superior design I
think. He also said he would volunteer to help You with it, but looks like
nothing happened. I know Mr. Parscall and all I can say is that he's very
skillfull guy (artist, musician, developer...).
I think no-frames version would be nice for search engines - so the best
would be to have both of them, and let visitor chose which one (s)he would
use.

Kind regards

Dejan

-- 
...........
Dejan Lekic
  http://dejan.lekic.org
Aug 22 2005
next sibling parent reply "Uwe Salomon" <post uwesalomon.de> writes:
 Mr. Bright,
 IMHO You should redesign DM website according to design provided by  
 Trevor
 Parscal (he submitted it few months ago). - It was really superior  
 design I
 think. He also said he would volunteer to help You with it, but looks  
 like
 nothing happened. I know Mr. Parscall and all I can say is that he's very
 skillfull guy (artist, musician, developer...).
 I think no-frames version would be nice for search engines - so the best
 would be to have both of them, and let visitor chose which one (s)he  
 would
 use.


I think it is not so much the design that needs to be changed, but the  
*content*. As far as i remember, some people said that they want a more  
detailed/complete Phobos documentation, some inconsistencies in the specs  
fixed etc. Discussing the style over and over again is a waste of time in  
my opinion. The design is ok now, that's it. And 2 versions == more work.

Ciao
uwe
Aug 22 2005
parent Dejan Lekic <leka entropy.tmok.com> writes:
Sure, but if someone as skillfull as Trevor offers to do the job all by
himself - why not? I think he could easily adopt all current content to new
design. And someone else could do maybe this what you asid above - better
documentation etc. Parscal made good template - web-application should
simply use it, that is all.

-- 
...........
Dejan Lekic
  http://dejan.lekic.org
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Dejan Lekic" <leka entropy.tmok.com> wrote in message
news:dec3e1$2kbk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Mr. Bright,
 IMHO You should redesign DM website according to design provided by Trevor
 Parscal (he submitted it few months ago). - It was really superior design


I

 think. He also said he would volunteer to help You with it, but looks like
 nothing happened. I know Mr. Parscall and all I can say is that he's very
 skillfull guy (artist, musician, developer...).
 I think no-frames version would be nice for search engines - so the best
 would be to have both of them, and let visitor chose which one (s)he would
 use.


Trevor's web site design is really nice. The problem is, well, it's a lot of
work to redo the web site.
Aug 22 2005
parent "Ben Hinkle" <ben.hinkle gmail.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:ded4n0$idd$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "Dejan Lekic" <leka entropy.tmok.com> wrote in message
 news:dec3e1$2kbk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Mr. Bright,
 IMHO You should redesign DM website according to design provided by 
 Trevor
 Parscal (he submitted it few months ago). - It was really superior design


 I

 think. He also said he would volunteer to help You with it, but looks 
 like
 nothing happened. I know Mr. Parscall and all I can say is that he's very
 skillfull guy (artist, musician, developer...).
 I think no-frames version would be nice for search engines - so the best
 would be to have both of them, and let visitor chose which one (s)he 
 would
 use.


 Trevor's web site design is really nice. The problem is, well, it's a lot 
 of
 work to redo the web site.


Work that presumably you don't have to do all yourself. I guess it depends 
on who would end up owning things like copyrights and if anyone would 
volunteer to make a website and give the copyright over to digitalmars (or 
to whomever or whatever would end up owning the copyrights).
Maybe someone should pump some life back into www.opend.org. That web page 
is copyrighted by "The OpenD Team" - not that I know who that is. There's 
plenty of people in the community who I bet could make some pretty spiffy 
content.
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
No. The frames was MUCH better in my opinion. Now you have to hit back everytime
you go to a page. The cool thing is that it is more organized. But maybe
something like msdn? Frames + folding menu?
If you keep it note this - http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html and
[...]/lex.html/phobos.html/comparison.html are different. The top line is
different and the padding is different.

In article <debngi$29kg$2 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Improvement? Keep it?

www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent pragma <pragma_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <debngi$29kg$2 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Improvement? Keep it?

www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


Walter, this is a huge improvment.  The site feels much less clustrophobic and
more usable now.

- EricAnderton at yahoo
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent Hasan Aljudy <hasan.aljudy gmail.com> writes:
Walter wrote:

 Improvement? Keep it?
 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
 
 


Definitely, this is tons better.

Keep it (as opposed to return to frames), but I personally still prefer 
Trevor Pascal's design.
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:debngi$29kg$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 Improvement? Keep it?


Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site, it's 
also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ded3u7$hkf$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,


No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.


 it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.


The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for navigation,
and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very difficult
for him to navigate.

The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly from,
say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.

Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that is
fixable without using frames?
Aug 22 2005
next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:ded7rb$lc4$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.


Yeah, I really shouldn't be one to talk either ;)  But if you're going to 
make a good impression for D, I'd really recommend getting a better design 
for the site.


 The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for 
 navigation,
 and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
 old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very difficult
 for him to navigate.

 The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly from,
 say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.


I've always liked frames; they're great for separating the index from the 
page content.  Though the problems you've mentioned are all very real ones.


 Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that is
 fixable without using frames?


I'm not sure.  My biggest beef with it is when you go to a long page, and 
scroll to the bottom, but if you want to get to another page, you have to 
scroll all the way back up to the top.  That, and the contents don't really 
stand out; they've got the same boring white background and are separated 
from the content by a thin black line.

Also - I noticed you put the _moduleDtor() call in the D for Win32 section, 
but the DLLs section is missing the _moduleDtor() in the DllMain() example. 
:)
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling parent reply zwang <nehzgnaw gmail.com> writes:
Walter wrote:

 "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
 news:ded3u7$hkf$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 

Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,


 
 
 No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.
 
 

it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.


 
 
 The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for navigation,


Sun's JDK online documentation uses frames;
Microsoft's MSDN documentation uses frames;
...and many more.


 and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
 old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very difficult
 for him to navigate.
 
 The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly from,
 say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.
 
 Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that is
 fixable without using frames?
Aug 22 2005
parent reply AJG <AJG nospam.com> writes:
Hi,

zwang wrote:

 Walter wrote:
 

 "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
 news:ded3u7$hkf$1 digitaldaemon.com...


 Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,




 No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.



 it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.




 The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for 
 navigation,


 
 
 Sun's JDK online documentation uses frames;
 Microsoft's MSDN documentation uses frames;
 ...and many more.


I can't speak for the Sun site, but the MSDN navigation menu is a 
god-forsaken creature best banished to the pits of hell. It's slow, 
clumsy, overly complex, convoluted, deeply-nested, and is known to crash 
IE. Worst of all, it uses frames, which are downright sinful by 
themselves. Avoid such design at _all_ costs.

That's not to say the _content_ of MSDN is bad. In fact, not at all. 
It's navigation menu that is its Achille's Heel.

Anyway, if you want an example of a superbly useful nav menu, take a 
look at the ubiquituous IMDB:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0060666/combined

The PHP sites are also very nice in terms of navigation and search.


 

 and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
 old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very difficult
 for him to navigate.

 The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly from,
 say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.

 Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that is
 fixable without using frames?




Cheers,
--AJG.
Aug 22 2005
next sibling parent J C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
In article <dee448$1sh0$1 digitaldaemon.com>, AJG says...

Hi,

zwang wrote:

 Walter wrote:
 

 "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
 news:ded3u7$hkf$1 digitaldaemon.com...


 Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,




 No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.



 it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.




 The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for 
 navigation,


 
 
 Sun's JDK online documentation uses frames;
 Microsoft's MSDN documentation uses frames;
 ...and many more.


I can't speak for the Sun site, but the MSDN navigation menu is a 
god-forsaken creature best banished to the pits of hell. It's slow, 
clumsy, overly complex, convoluted, deeply-nested, and is known to crash 
IE. Worst of all, it uses frames, which are downright sinful by 
themselves. Avoid such design at _all_ costs.

That's not to say the _content_ of MSDN is bad. In fact, not at all. 
It's navigation menu that is its Achille's Heel.


I absolutely agree. MSDN's navigation and slow and cumbersome. MSDN's content is
good.

jcc7
Aug 23 2005
prev sibling parent "Ameer Armaly" <ameer_armaly hotmail.com> writes:
"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:dee448$1sh0$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Hi,

 zwang wrote:

 Walter wrote:


 "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
 news:ded3u7$hkf$1 digitaldaemon.com...


 Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,




 No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.



 it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.




 The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for 
 navigation,



 Sun's JDK online documentation uses frames;
 Microsoft's MSDN documentation uses frames;
 ...and many more.


 I can't speak for the Sun site, but the MSDN navigation menu is a 
 god-forsaken creature best banished to the pits of hell. It's slow, 
 clumsy, overly complex, convoluted, deeply-nested, and is known to crash 
 IE. Worst of all, it uses frames, which are downright sinful by 
 themselves. Avoid such design at _all_ costs.


I agree entirely-it's way overdone.

 That's not to say the _content_ of MSDN is bad. In fact, not at all. It's 
 navigation menu that is its Achille's Heel.

 Anyway, if you want an example of a superbly useful nav menu, take a look 
 at the ubiquituous IMDB:

 http://imdb.com/title/tt0060666/combined

 The PHP sites are also very nice in terms of navigation and search.


 and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
 old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very 
 difficult
 for him to navigate.

 The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly 
 from,
 say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.

 Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that 
 is
 fixable without using frames?




 Cheers,
 --AJG.
Aug 23 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Walter wrote:


 Improvement? Keep it?
 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


I like it.

Lars Ivar Igesund
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Carlos Smith" <c_____.s____ sympatico.ca> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:debngi$29kg$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 Improvement? Keep it?


Yes, Yes.

Some reasons why:

  http://www.search-marketing.info/traps/frames.htm
  http://karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=2
  http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
  http://www.htmlite.com/SD002.php
  http://www.discountdomainsuk.com/articles_archived/9/688/1

http://azenomei.knuffel.net/~rhialto/banned_from_www.polderland.nl/frames-ar
e-bad.html
  http://www.netlawblog.com/archives/000167.html
  http://www.iso.port.ac.uk/~mike/whynoframes.html
  http://www.weballey.net/frames/badthings.html
  http://www.ecr.mu.oz.au/help/web/tips.html

  etc...
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Carlos Smith" <c_____.s____ sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:ded8jg$lvk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Some reasons why:

   http://www.search-marketing.info/traps/frames.htm
   http://karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=2
   http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
   http://www.htmlite.com/SD002.php
   http://www.discountdomainsuk.com/articles_archived/9/688/1


http://azenomei.knuffel.net/~rhialto/banned_from_www.polderland.nl/frames-ar

 e-bad.html
   http://www.netlawblog.com/archives/000167.html
   http://www.iso.port.ac.uk/~mike/whynoframes.html
   http://www.weballey.net/frames/badthings.html
   http://www.ecr.mu.oz.au/help/web/tips.html

   etc...


I think the point is made <g>.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Regan Heath" <regan netwin.co.nz> writes:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:36:59 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>  
wrote:

 "Carlos Smith" <c_____.s____ sympatico.ca> wrote in message
 news:ded8jg$lvk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Some reasons why:

   http://www.search-marketing.info/traps/frames.htm
   http://karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=2
   http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
   http://www.htmlite.com/SD002.php
   http://www.discountdomainsuk.com/articles_archived/9/688/1


 http://azenomei.knuffel.net/~rhialto/banned_from_www.polderland.nl/frames-ar

 e-bad.html
   http://www.netlawblog.com/archives/000167.html
   http://www.iso.port.ac.uk/~mike/whynoframes.html
   http://www.weballey.net/frames/badthings.html
   http://www.ecr.mu.oz.au/help/web/tips.html

   etc...


 I think the point is made <g>.


Yes.. except.. the original problem that 'frames' solve, if badly,  
remains. It is mentioned in the 2nd link, I quote...

"Introduced by Netscape in 1996, frames were introduced as a (seemingly)  
creative solution to a common concern. When a user scrolls a page to view  
more content, the navigational items are taken out of view as well. The  
solution? Separate the content from the navigation so that the navigation  
is always visible and usable for the visitor."

So, while I agree: "frames are not the solution" where does that leave  
you? Do you simply ensure your users never need to scroll your pages? do  
you add a floating menu? (hell no, IMO) what is the solution?

Regan
Aug 22 2005
next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:30:56 +1200, Regan Heath wrote:


[snip]
 

 Yes.. except.. the original problem that 'frames' solve, if badly,  
 remains.


[snip]


 So, while I agree: "frames are not the solution" where does that leave  
 you? Do you simply ensure your users never need to scroll your pages? do  
 you add a floating menu? (hell no, IMO) what is the solution?


How about having smaller pages. Just limit a page to some context info at
the top and one topic/aspect in the main body with the frame-less
navigation info at the side. In other words, if scrolling is an issue,
lessen the need to scroll.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
23/08/2005 7:52:14 AM
Aug 22 2005
parent zwang <nehzgnaw gmail.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:30:56 +1200, Regan Heath wrote:
 
 
 [snip]
  
 

Yes.. except.. the original problem that 'frames' solve, if badly,  
remains.


 
 
 [snip]
 
 

So, while I agree: "frames are not the solution" where does that leave  
you? Do you simply ensure your users never need to scroll your pages? do  
you add a floating menu? (hell no, IMO) what is the solution?


 
 
 How about having smaller pages. Just limit a page to some context info at
 the top and one topic/aspect in the main body with the frame-less
 navigation info at the side. In other words, if scrolling is an issue,
 lessen the need to scroll.
 


Here comes another problem: visitors have to click more links than necessary.
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent James Dunne <james.jdunne gmail.com> writes:
In article <opsvxe9ue123k2f5 nrage.netwin.co.nz>, Regan Heath says...

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:36:59 -0700, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>  
wrote:

 "Carlos Smith" <c_____.s____ sympatico.ca> wrote in message
 news:ded8jg$lvk$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Some reasons why:

   http://www.search-marketing.info/traps/frames.htm
   http://karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=2
   http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
   http://www.htmlite.com/SD002.php
   http://www.discountdomainsuk.com/articles_archived/9/688/1


 http://azenomei.knuffel.net/~rhialto/banned_from_www.polderland.nl/frames-ar

 e-bad.html
   http://www.netlawblog.com/archives/000167.html
   http://www.iso.port.ac.uk/~mike/whynoframes.html
   http://www.weballey.net/frames/badthings.html
   http://www.ecr.mu.oz.au/help/web/tips.html

   etc...


 I think the point is made <g>.


Yes.. except.. the original problem that 'frames' solve, if badly,  
remains. It is mentioned in the 2nd link, I quote...

"Introduced by Netscape in 1996, frames were introduced as a (seemingly)  
creative solution to a common concern. When a user scrolls a page to view  
more content, the navigational items are taken out of view as well. The  
solution? Separate the content from the navigation so that the navigation  
is always visible and usable for the visitor."



So, while I agree: "frames are not the solution" where does that leave  
you? Do you simply ensure your users never need to scroll your pages? do  
you add a floating menu? (hell no, IMO) what is the solution?

Regan


The solution is to redesign this bobawful pile of crap we call the web.  HTML
and HTTP have ruined the world and have stunted progress.  No, I won't tell you
what I *really* think ;)

Regards,
James Dunne
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling parent reply AJG <AJG nospam.com> writes:
Hi,


 Yes.. except.. the original problem that 'frames' solve, if badly,  
 remains. It is mentioned in the 2nd link, I quote...
 
 "Introduced by Netscape in 1996, frames were introduced as a 
 (seemingly)  creative solution to a common concern. When a user scrolls 
 a page to view  more content, the navigational items are taken out of 
 view as well. The  solution? Separate the content from the navigation so 
 that the navigation  is always visible and usable for the visitor."
 
 So, while I agree: "frames are not the solution" where does that leave  
 you? Do you simply ensure your users never need to scroll your pages? 
 do  you add a floating menu? (hell no, IMO) what is the solution?
 
 Regan


Personally, given the new design, I don't think the navigation menu is 
an issue. IMHO, the "scrolling problem" is overrated. Maybe it's because 
I have a really fast, adaptive acceleration scroll wheel ;).

Having said that, before some ungodly javascript floating hack is 
introduced to create the effect of a fixed menu, please consider using 
the official solution, which is CSS.

Here's a simple example:

http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar

Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found 
here:

http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning

Enjoy,
--AJG.
Aug 22 2005
next sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message
news:deduje$1mca$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Having said that, before some ungodly javascript floating hack is
 introduced to create the effect of a fixed menu, please consider using
 the official solution, which is CSS.

 Here's a simple example:

 http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar

 Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found
 here:

 http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning


That looks pretty good.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:dee1ij$1pi2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message
 news:deduje$1mca$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Having said that, before some ungodly javascript floating hack is
 introduced to create the effect of a fixed menu, please consider using
 the official solution, which is CSS.

 Here's a simple example:

 http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar

 Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found
 here:

 http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning


 That looks pretty good.


Oh darn, there is a problem with it - if the left-sidebar is taller than the
screen. It can't be scrolled!
Aug 22 2005
parent "Ilya Zaitseff" <sark7 mail333.com> writes:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:15:54 +1100, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>  
wrote:


 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:dee1ij$1pi2$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message
 news:deduje$1mca$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Having said that, before some ungodly javascript floating hack is
 introduced to create the effect of a fixed menu, please consider using
 the official solution, which is CSS.

 Here's a simple example:

 http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar

 Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be  


 found

 here:

 http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning


 That looks pretty good.


 Oh darn, there is a problem with it - if the left-sidebar is taller than  
 the
 screen. It can't be scrolled!


Such behaviour is completely controlled by overflow:hidden CSS option.
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:deduje$1mca$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Here's a simple example:

 http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar


That looks _very_ good.  I'd really like that.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:dee2dn$1qgc$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message 
 news:deduje$1mca$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Here's a simple example:

 http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar


 That looks _very_ good.  I'd really like that.


I've been implementing this layout in my site, and it's working wonderfully! 
I makes for very clean-looking HTML, and it's great that all the pages are 
consistent.  Only problem I have with it is that I have to copy the code for 
the header and nav bar to each page, so if I want to change something in the 
nav bar, I have to go through each page and change it; but I'm sure I'm 
doing something wrong there.
Aug 23 2005
next sibling parent reply AJG <AJG_member pathlink.com> writes:
Hi,

Jarrett Billingsley says...

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:dee2dn$1qgc$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 "AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message 
 news:deduje$1mca$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Here's a simple example:

 http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar


 That looks _very_ good.  I'd really like that.


I've been implementing this layout in my site, and it's working wonderfully! 
I makes for very clean-looking HTML, and it's great that all the pages are 
consistent.  Only problem I have with it is that I have to copy the code for 
the header and nav bar to each page, so if I want to change something in the 
nav bar, I have to go through each page and change it; but I'm sure I'm 
doing something wrong there. 


What you need, my man, is a little dynamic magic. What kind of server setup are
you running?

The simplest solution to your dilemma is SSI (server-side includes). This is a
very straightforward way of including content from one file into many other
files.

So you would have:

~/nav.inc.html = contains navigation code.
~/index.shtml  = contains index page.
~/page1.shtml  = some other page.

Then, in index.shtml and page1.shtml (and every other page you want the nav menu
to appear in), you would INCLUDE nav.inc.html.

The canonical way to do this is with the following:

<!--#include file="nav.inc.html" -->

For that to work, your server must support SSI, and the _container_ page must be
named with a .shtml extension. The _included_ page can have any extension,
unless it, too, has SSI in it, in which case it must also be .shtml.

----------

More elaborate solutions exist using Perl or PHP or even Apache magic, but I
think the simplest, quickest one is SSI. Let me know if it works out for you.

Cheers,
--AJG.
Aug 23 2005
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"AJG" <AJG_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:defm1k$1hfo$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 What you need, my man, is a little dynamic magic. What kind of server 
 setup are
 you running?

 The simplest solution to your dilemma is SSI (server-side includes). This 
 is a
 very straightforward way of including content from one file into many 
 other
 files.

 So you would have:

 ~/nav.inc.html = contains navigation code.
 ~/index.shtml  = contains index page.
 ~/page1.shtml  = some other page.

 Then, in index.shtml and page1.shtml (and every other page you want the 
 nav menu
 to appear in), you would INCLUDE nav.inc.html.

 The canonical way to do this is with the following:

 <!--#include file="nav.inc.html" -->

 For that to work, your server must support SSI, and the _container_ page 
 must be
 named with a .shtml extension. The _included_ page can have any extension,
 unless it, too, has SSI in it, in which case it must also be .shtml.


That sounds like a good idea.  I'll have to check out if my server supports 
SSI.  Thanks for the suggestion!


 More elaborate solutions exist using Perl or PHP or even Apache magic, but 
 I
 think the simplest, quickest one is SSI. Let me know if it works out for 
 you.


Yeah, I really don't know anything about either, but I'm pretty sure my 
server supports PHP.  Maybe I'll look into that once I start with my web 
design class :)
Aug 24 2005
next sibling parent Chris Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 Yeah, I really don't know anything about either, but I'm pretty sure my
 server supports PHP.  Maybe I'll look into that once I start with my web
 design class :)


While I am a big advocate of PHP, if all you want is to include snippets then
your best 
bet would probably be SSI if its available.  Generally speaking the following
SSI snip:


















Is equivelant to the following PHP snip:






















-- Chris S
PS - For complex dynamic pages, PHP is a god. ;)
Aug 24 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent pragma <pragma_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <deiers$ijj$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Jarrett Billingsley says...

Yeah, I really don't know anything about either, but I'm pretty sure my 
server supports PHP.  Maybe I'll look into that once I start with my web 
design class :) 


Here's your 30-second crash-course in how to aggregate files in PHP:

index.php:

<html><body>
<? include("hello.php"); ?>
</body></html>


hello.php:

<p>Hello world!</p>

In a nutshell: anything in between the <? and ?> tokens is PHP code.  The
include() function is just one of many in the PHP runtime/platform, and does
what you'd expect.

- EricAnderton at yahoo
Aug 24 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:deiers$ijj$1 digitaldaemon.com...

Thanks to both Chris Sauls and pragma!  I'll try those out and see which one 
I like better.
Aug 25 2005
parent pragma <pragma_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <dekfea$1i4t$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Jarrett Billingsley says...

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:deiers$ijj$1 digitaldaemon.com...

Thanks to both Chris Sauls and pragma!  I'll try those out and see which one 
I like better. 


They're basically the same, with one exception.  The 'require' function will
barf if the targeted file isn't present, while 'include' will be a little more
forgiving.  Just experiment a little and I'm sure you'll get it.

Also, keep in mind that you can use relative paths for both functions (eg.
"../index.php" or "./scripts/foobar.php").

PHP Documentation:

http://us2.php.net/manual/en/function.include.php
http://us2.php.net/manual/en/function.require.php

- EricAnderton at yahoo
Aug 25 2005
prev sibling parent James Dunne <james.jdunne gmail.com> writes:
In article <deiers$ijj$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Jarrett Billingsley says...

"AJG" <AJG_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:defm1k$1hfo$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 What you need, my man, is a little dynamic magic. What kind of server 
 setup are
 you running?

 The simplest solution to your dilemma is SSI (server-side includes). This 
 is a
 very straightforward way of including content from one file into many 
 other
 files.

 So you would have:

 ~/nav.inc.html = contains navigation code.
 ~/index.shtml  = contains index page.
 ~/page1.shtml  = some other page.

 Then, in index.shtml and page1.shtml (and every other page you want the 
 nav menu
 to appear in), you would INCLUDE nav.inc.html.

 The canonical way to do this is with the following:

 <!--#include file="nav.inc.html" -->

 For that to work, your server must support SSI, and the _container_ page 
 must be
 named with a .shtml extension. The _included_ page can have any extension,
 unless it, too, has SSI in it, in which case it must also be .shtml.


That sounds like a good idea.  I'll have to check out if my server supports 
SSI.  Thanks for the suggestion!


It should... Apache 2.0.54 is your server, and I think by default SSI is
enabled.  I haven't tested it.  If you wish to use it, try it out and let me
know if it works.  If it doesn't, I'll dig deeper and fix it.


 More elaborate solutions exist using Perl or PHP or even Apache magic, but 
 I
 think the simplest, quickest one is SSI. Let me know if it works out for 
 you.


Yeah, I really don't know anything about either, but I'm pretty sure my 
server supports PHP.  Maybe I'll look into that once I start with my web 
design class :) 


Yes, you have PHP 5.0.4 installed.  Any extra PHP modules you need can be easily
installed.

Regards,
James Dunne
Aug 26 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Hasan Aljudy <hasan.aljudy gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message 
 news:dee2dn$1qgc$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 

"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:deduje$1mca$1 digitaldaemon.com...


Here's a simple example:

http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar


That looks _very_ good.  I'd really like that.


 
 
 I've been implementing this layout in my site, and it's working wonderfully! 
 I makes for very clean-looking HTML, and it's great that all the pages are 
 consistent.  Only problem I have with it is that I have to copy the code for 
 the header and nav bar to each page, so if I want to change something in the 
 nav bar, I have to go through each page and change it; but I'm sure I'm 
 doing something wrong there. 
 
 


yea, you're missing something:
pull out all the "style" definitions to a .css file, then include it in 
your html.

I'm not sure about the details, but I think:
<head>
<!-- what ever you want to put ... -->
<link href="style.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
</head>
Aug 23 2005
parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Hasan Aljudy" <hasan.aljudy gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:defrh3$1uf6$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 yea, you're missing something:
 pull out all the "style" definitions to a .css file, then include it in 
 your html.

 I'm not sure about the details, but I think:
 <head>
 <!-- what ever you want to put ... -->
 <link href="style.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
 </head>


Oh yeah, that's what I'm doing already; it's just that it's a bit of a pain 
to have to copy the:

<div id="header>
    blah blah blah
</div>

<div id="sidebar">
    links to stuff
</div>

Into every page, if it's going to be exactly the same on every page.  What 
AJG suggested with SSI sounds like what I'm aiming for.
Aug 24 2005
prev sibling parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:deffus$17g8$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Only problem I have with it is that I have to copy the code for
 the header and nav bar to each page, so if I want to change something in


the

 nav bar, I have to go through each page and change it; but I'm sure I'm
 doing something wrong there.


I use a simple macro text preprocessor.
Aug 23 2005
prev sibling parent reply Hasan Aljudy <hasan.aljudy gmail.com> writes:
AJG wrote:

 Hi,


[snip]

 please consider using 
 the official solution, which is CSS.
 
 Here's a simple example:
 
 http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar
 
 Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found 
 here:
 
 http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning
 
 Enjoy,
 --AJG.


That's brilliant!!
Aug 22 2005
parent "ElfQT" <dethjunk yahoo.com> writes:
In case if any of you interested in html/css,
and in case didn't know that site before:

http://www.csszengarden.com/

"A demonstration of what can be accomplished visually through CSS-based
design."

ElfQT
Aug 23 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
Umm...

<td valign="top" bgcolor="eeeeee" nowrap>

I guess you were going to say "#eeeeee"?

And about frames:
Frames were designed to minimize traffic. They really makes sense when you 
have complex index part and dynamic content part.
Just to minimize entropy and air pollution for such cases.

Andrew.
Aug 22 2005
parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
news:ded95j$mfh$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Umm...

 <td valign="top" bgcolor="eeeeee" nowrap>

 I guess you were going to say "#eeeeee"?


eeeeeek!


 And about frames:
 Frames were designed to minimize traffic. They really makes sense when you
 have complex index part and dynamic content part.
 Just to minimize entropy and air pollution for such cases.


I know. But they're dead.
Aug 22 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply AJG <AJG nospam.com> writes:
Hi,

Walter wrote:

 Improvement? Keep it?
 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


As I mentioned before with the phobos docs, the frameless navigation is 
a huge improvement. Great job! The site feels more modern now, and is 
much more usable. This is particularly true for search engines and 
bookmarks.

I have an idea for searching which is quite simple and doesn't involve 
any heavy lifting. See, the problem right now is that searching, which 
is done through Google, lumps together docs and messages.

With that setup, it's very hard to find the official information. Hence 
my suggestion: What about moving either the docs or the newsgroup to 
another root at the domain level?

For instance:

www.digitalmars.com/d/docs/...
and
www.digitalmars.com/d/newsgroup/...
and
www.digitalmars.com/d/archive/...

That way, when searching with google, you can use

KEYWORDS ... site:digitalmars.com

to locate pages within:

1) Just the docs (/d/docs/).
2) Just the messages (/d/archive/).
3) Everything related to D (/d/).
4) All of DigitalMars (/).

Moreover, this could be extended to work with sub-categories. For 
example, you could separate the spec proper:

www.digitalmars.com/d/docs/spec/... (arrays, functions, etc...)
from phobos:
www.digitalmars.com/d/docs/phobos/std/...
www.digitalmars.com/d/docs/phobos/etc/...

Which would allow even further specificity when searching. The best part 
of this is that it is all done through google. No need to implement 
anything server-side, and no need to index pages.

Just move the pages to the correct location. In fact, a custom search 
page could be used that prettifies the whole ordeal for non-googlers.

I could put together this page if people support the idea.

What do you think?

Cheers,
--AJG.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dedsd4$1jig$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 What do you think?


The problem is it will break existing links to those pages.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply AJG <AJG nospam.com> writes:
Hi,

Walter says...

"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dedsd4$1jig$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 What do you think?


The problem is it will break existing links to those pages.


Ah. But is this really a big concern? Specially given that _with_ the 
frames, bookmarks didn't work properly.

If this is really a problem, there is still a fairly simple solution:
First, copy pages to their new, canonical locations.

Second, in the old pages, nuke the content and simply leave a stub which 
should contain 2 things:

1) A tag to make the search engines forget it.
<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow,noarchive">

This way searching the way I previously described would still work.

2) A redirect to the actual page.

This way there's no need for duplicate content and it avoids staleness.

Eventually, these stubs can be removed as people update their links.

Thoughts?

I think harnessing google is the best option. They specialize in 
searching and indexing web pages, and they know what they're doing. Why 
not put that to good use?

Cheers,
--AJG.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
I agree totally. I'll work on it.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply AJG <AJG nospam.com> writes:
Walter wrote:

 I agree totally. I'll work on it.


Awesome.
--AJG.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message
news:deeb3g$27o1$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 Walter wrote:

 I agree totally. I'll work on it.


 Awesome.
 --AJG.


The phobos stuff is done. It only awaits google to reindex it before the
search works.
Aug 22 2005
parent reply AJG <AJG_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <deeevd$2bgr$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

"AJG" <AJG nospam.com> wrote in message
news:deeb3g$27o1$2 digitaldaemon.com...

 Walter wrote:

 I agree totally. I'll work on it.


 Awesome.
 --AJG.


The phobos stuff is done. It only awaits google to reindex it before the
search works.


Great work! What about moving the spec itself into a /d/spec/ or a /d/lang/
directory? That would finally untie it from the archives.

Cheers,
--AJG.







 Aug 23 2005



  parent  "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com>  writes:


"AJG" <AJG_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:defm8j$1if5$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Great work! What about moving the spec itself into a /d/spec/ or a


/d/lang/

 directory? That would finally untie it from the archives.


Yes, I should do that too.



 Aug 23 2005



prev sibling next sibling parent reply J C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com>  writes:


In article <debngi$29kg$2 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Improvement? Keep it?


Yes. And yes. I think it's a great improvement.


www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


By the way, I think you forgot to add the sidebar to the glossary:
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/glossary.html

jcc7



 Aug 23 2005



  parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com>  writes:


"J C Calvarese" <technocrat7 gmail.com> wrote in message
news:deenko$2oaq$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 By the way, I think you forgot to add the sidebar to the glossary:
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/glossary.html


Fixed.



 Aug 23 2005



  parent reply clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com>  writes:


Walter wrote:

 "J C Calvarese" <technocrat7 gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:deenko$2oaq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 

By the way, I think you forgot to add the sidebar to the glossary:
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/glossary.html


 
 
 Fixed.
 
 


I think techtips has the same problem:

http://www.digitalmars.com/techtips/index.html



 Aug 23 2005



  parent  "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com>  writes:


"clayasaurus" <clayasaurus gmail.com> wrote in message
news:defb5q$u4v$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 I think techtips has the same problem:
 http://www.digitalmars.com/techtips/index.html


True, I just haven't done that directory yet.



 Aug 23 2005



prev sibling next sibling parent  David L. Davis <SpottedTiger yahoo.com>  writes:


In article <debngi$29kg$2 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Improvement? Keep it?

www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


Walter, the no frames does look cleaner, but I must admit that it does seem a
little bit harder now to navigate around in...which I'm sure I'll adjust to it.
But it feels strange to post a message in the web interface, and to be left with
no link back to forum. Currently, I think this may lead to some mistaken double
posting...from yours truly, and others.

After posting, all you're left with is:
---------------------------------------
Posting - Please wait...

Article Posted

Copyright Newsguy News Service
---------------------------------------

Please place a link that'll put one back into the forum, or better yet, back to
the list of forums. <g>

Thanks,
David L.

P.S. Feeling a little like E.T. right now, and all I need is a link to the forum
homepage. :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dare to reach for the Stars...Dare to Dream, Build, and Achieve!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

MKoD: http://spottedtiger.tripod.com/D_Language/D_Main_XP.html



 Aug 23 2005



prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org>  writes:


Walter,

You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html

In short:

border=1 cellpadding=8 cellspacing=0 -> border="1" cellpadding="8" 
cellspacing="0"
nowrap> -> nowrap="nowrap">
onFocus -> onfocus
{this.value="";}'> -> {this.value="";}' />
value="www.digitalmars.com"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com" />
value="www.digitalmars.com/d"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com/d" />
value="google-search"> -> value="google-search" />
value="Go"> -> value="Go" />
<hr><br> -> <hr /><br />
<br> -> <br /> (lots of times)
</td></table> -> </td></tr></table>

I wish I had time to put into this myself - suggestions, comments other 
than validation, javascript code to highlight code snippets (assuming 
any of it would be worthwhile), but I don't just now...

-[Unknown]


 Improvement? Keep it?
 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
 
 





 Aug 23 2005



 next sibling parent reply AJG <AJG_member pathlink.com>  writes:


In article <deh146$13ar$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Unknown W. Brackets says...

Walter,

You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


What is this "transitional" you speak of? 

;)

--AJG.
/1.1 Freak.



 Aug 23 2005



  parent  "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org>  writes:


Also known as "supporting browsers other than Deer Park and Internet 
Explorer 7".

-[Unknown]



 In article <deh146$13ar$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Unknown W. Brackets says...
 

Walter,

You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html


 
 
 What is this "transitional" you speak of? 
 
 ;)
 
 --AJG.
 /1.1 Freak.
 
 





 Aug 24 2005



prev sibling  parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com>  writes:


Ok, but why does it need to be XHTML rather than HTML?

"Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> wrote in message
news:deh146$13ar$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Walter,

 You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.


http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/i
ndex.html

 In short:

 border=1 cellpadding=8 cellspacing=0 -> border="1" cellpadding="8"
 cellspacing="0"
 nowrap> -> nowrap="nowrap">
 onFocus -> onfocus
 {this.value="";}'> -> {this.value="";}' />
 value="www.digitalmars.com"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com" />
 value="www.digitalmars.com/d"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com/d" />
 value="google-search"> -> value="google-search" />
 value="Go"> -> value="Go" />
 <hr><br> -> <hr /><br />
 <br> -> <br /> (lots of times)
 </td></table> -> </td></tr></table>

 I wish I had time to put into this myself - suggestions, comments other
 than validation, javascript code to highlight code snippets (assuming
 any of it would be worthwhile), but I don't just now...

 -[Unknown]


 Improvement? Keep it?

 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html







 Aug 24 2005



 next sibling parent  AJG <AJG_member pathlink.com>  writes:


Hi,

In article <deim31$uon$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...

Ok, but why does it need to be XHTML rather than HTML?


Truthfully, it doesn't have to be. HTML 4.01 is a perfectly fine, complete
specification that is widely-supported. However, I think XHTML is by and large
"the future," and it _might_ be a good idea to move in that direction.

In addition, XHTML tends to have greater semantic value for the web, because it
more cleanly separates visual/audial data ("presentation") from the actual
information ("content").

Of course, a pragmatist seldom cares about these ideals; if this conversion
would require a large effort, I don't know if it'd be worth it. At the same
time, I do think the pages should at least validate properly.

My 2 cents, tax-deductible.
--AJG.


"Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> wrote in message
news:deh146$13ar$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Walter,

 You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.


http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/i
ndex.html

 In short:

 border=1 cellpadding=8 cellspacing=0 -> border="1" cellpadding="8"
 cellspacing="0"
 nowrap> -> nowrap="nowrap">
 onFocus -> onfocus
 {this.value="";}'> -> {this.value="";}' />
 value="www.digitalmars.com"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com" />
 value="www.digitalmars.com/d"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com/d" />
 value="google-search"> -> value="google-search" />
 value="Go"> -> value="Go" />
 <hr><br> -> <hr /><br />
 <br> -> <br /> (lots of times)
 </td></table> -> </td></tr></table>

 I wish I had time to put into this myself - suggestions, comments other
 than validation, javascript code to highlight code snippets (assuming
 any of it would be worthwhile), but I don't just now...

 -[Unknown]


 Improvement? Keep it?

 www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html









 Aug 24 2005



prev sibling  parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org>  writes:


Philosophy aside, because it *says* it's XHTML:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" 
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html lang="en" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

Validating against HTML 4:

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html&doctype=HTML%204.01%20Transitional

Which is basically just the /> and the xmlns.

-[Unknown]



 Ok, but why does it need to be XHTML rather than HTML?





 Aug 24 2005



  parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com>  writes:


That's what I get for cutting and pasting the line from an example. What
should it say to be HTML 4?

"Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown simplemachines.org> wrote in message
news:dejbff$1sf3$1 digitaldaemon.com...

 Philosophy aside, because it *says* it's XHTML:

 <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
 "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
 <html lang="en" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

 Validating against HTML 4:


http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/i
ndex.html&doctype=HTML%204.01%20Transitional

 Which is basically just the /> and the xmlns.

 -[Unknown]



 Ok, but why does it need to be XHTML rather than HTML?







 Aug 24 2005



  parent reply Chris Sauls <ibisbasenji gmail.com>  writes:


Walter wrote:

 That's what I get for cutting and pasting the line from an example. What
 should it say to be HTML 4?


This is what you want:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>

-- Chris Sauls



 Aug 24 2005



  parent  "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com>  writes:


Got it, thanks!



 Aug 25 2005



prev sibling  parent  Dejan Lekic <leka entropy.tmok.com>  writes:


It is certainly better than previous. :)

-- 
...........
Dejan Lekic
  http://dejan.lekic.org
  



 Aug 24 2005