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digitalmars.D - You too can work on D for iOS

reply Dan Olson <gorox comcast.net> writes:
Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own
iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode.

http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/

-- 
Dan
Jun 11 2015
next sibling parent Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/11/15 10:13 PM, Dan Olson wrote:

 Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own
 iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode.

 http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/


Very cool. I let my developer license expire because I haven't done any 
real iOS work in over a year. But this is nice for tinkering. When you 
are ready to submit to the app store, you can pay for the license :)

-Steve
Jun 11 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Joakim" <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote:

 Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your 
 own
 iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to run 
 Xcode.

 http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/


Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain 
available outside OS X.  The Android toolchain is available for 
all three major desktop platforms.  Still, good that at least you 
don't have to pay now.
Jun 11 2015
next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 03:47:48 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain 
 available outside OS X.


This _is_ Apple that we're talking about here.

- Jonathan M Davis
Jun 11 2015
prev sibling parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote:

 Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own
 iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode.

 http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/


 Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available
 outside OS X.  The Android toolchain is available for all three major
 desktop platforms.  Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now.


You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using 
objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store 
without Xcode.

Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other platforms -- 
it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very easy for 
them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, so the 
incentive to support other platforms isn't really there.

At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They are good 
systems to use.

The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500 
new, and you get Xcode free.

-Steve
Jun 11 2015
next sibling parent reply "Mattcoder" <stop mail.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs 
 $500 new, and you get Xcode free.


I don't want to be that guy but living in Brazil that Mac Mini 
(Yosemite) costs 6x more in here. I mean it can be more cheap to 
travel to U.S. and buy one there and go back than buying directly 
in here.

Matheus.
Jun 11 2015
parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 1:00 AM, Mattcoder wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 I don't want to be that guy but living in Brazil that Mac Mini
 (Yosemite) costs 6x more in here. I mean it can be more cheap to travel
 to U.S. and buy one there and go back than buying directly in here.


That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more expensive!

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:00:17 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 On 6/12/15 1:00 AM, Mattcoder wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
 wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini 
 costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 I don't want to be that guy but living in Brazil that Mac Mini
 (Yosemite) costs 6x more in here. I mean it can be more cheap 
 to travel
 to U.S. and buy one there and go back than buying directly in 
 here.


 That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more 
 expensive!

 -Steve


it's often referred to as 'brazil cost,' it gets rather political.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent "Mattcoder" <stop spam.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:00:17 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 ...
 That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more 
 expensive!


Import taxes and currency (Brazilian $ 3.20 = U$ 1.00).

Welcome to the jungle! :)

Matheus.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are 
laptops, with screen and battery and everything.
Jun 11 2015
next sibling parent reply Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are
 laptops, with screen and battery and everything.


In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the kind you get 
from Apply directly) is ~ $4000.
For in store top of the line not fully upgraded it is about $3000.

Mac Mini ~$1000.

Well and truly above exchange rate.
Jun 11 2015
parent reply "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini 
 costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And 
 those are
 laptops, with screen and battery and everything.


 In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the kind 
 you get from Apply directly) is ~ $4000.


Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD 
without a screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro?


 Mac Mini ~$1000.


I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores 1.4Ghz.

A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD  is 1775USD and still only *2* 
cores?

I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux.
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent reply "rsw0x" <anonymous anonymous.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:43:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini 
 costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And 
 those are
 laptops, with screen and battery and everything.


 In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the 
 kind you get from Apply directly) is ~ $4000.


 Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD 
 without a screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro?


 Mac Mini ~$1000.


 I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores 1.4Ghz.

 A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD  is 1775USD and still only 
 *2* cores?

 I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux.


even in USA their prices are ridiculous

for example, the $999 hidpi monitor they sell on their site? you 
can buy the same exact monitor for ~$250 on ebay directly from 
the korean manufacturer. I own one, it looks identical to the 
apple one.
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:46:19 UTC, rsw0x wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:43:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole 
 wrote:

 [...]


 Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD 
 without a screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro?


 [...]


 I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores 1.4Ghz.

 A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD  is 1775USD and still only 
 *2* cores?

 I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux.


 even in USA their prices are ridiculous

 for example, the $999 hidpi monitor they sell on their site? 
 you can buy the same exact monitor for ~$250 on ebay directly 
 from the korean manufacturer. I own one, it looks identical to 
 the apple one.


Funnily enough, I bought my macbook pro because it was 
significantly cheaper than anything comparable the competition 
had to offer.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 08:46:19 UTC, rsw0x wrote:

 for example, the $999 hidpi monitor they sell on their site? 
 you can buy the same exact monitor for ~$250 on ebay directly 
 from the korean manufacturer. I own one, it looks identical to 
 the apple one.


I'm not surprised! I bet they saw too many developers buying 
4-core minis and no screen and thought:  "hey, let's force devs 
to buy our 4-core iMacs, then we get to sell a screen too!". And 
I have to admit, if I _had_ to buy an iMac I'd be tempted to 
consider the retina version.

But I think I'll just pass on an upgrade and make my next machine 
a 6+ core Linux box with a clang cross compiler and shared 
filesystem. I don't really mind using makefiles that much.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 12/06/2015 8:43 p.m., "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= 
<ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang gmail.com>" wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 06:50:01 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 On 12/06/2015 6:45 p.m., Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are
 laptops, with screen and battery and everything.


 In New Zealand a fully upgraded top of the line model (the kind you
 get from Apply directly) is ~ $4000.


 Hm, in Norway the 12core version fully upgraded is 11354USD without a
 screen… Are you sure you looked at Mac Pro?


My bad, Mac Book Pro. Very similar name.


 Mac Mini ~$1000.


 I get 695USD with no keyboard for 2 cores 1.4Ghz.

 A 3Ghz mac mini/16GB RAM/256GB SSD  is 1775USD and still only *2* cores?

 I'd rather buy a used 4-core mac mini or go Linux.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 2:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are
 laptops, with screen and battery and everything.


If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you, 
you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you 
need. That was part of my point.

If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on iOS, I 
think you probably have other objections besides that. It's OK, iOS 
development is not everyone's cup of tea.

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:03:59 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important 
 to you, you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get 
 the tools you need. That was part of my point.

 If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on 
 iOS, I think you probably have other objections besides that. 
 It's OK, iOS development is not everyone's cup of tea.


Woah now, that's an overly broad statement and carries some 
assumptions. $160 is my mom's MONTHLY salary over here.
Jun 12 2015
parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 8:07 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:03:59 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you,
 you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you
 need. That was part of my point.

 If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on iOS, I
 think you probably have other objections besides that. It's OK, iOS
 development is not everyone's cup of tea.


 Woah now, that's an overly broad statement and carries some assumptions.
 $160 is my mom's MONTHLY salary over here.


Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able 
to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it? Perhaps that's 
not possible in your country, I don't really have an answer for that.

I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap 
enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying a 
mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost 
doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible 
without it. Sorry if it came off sounding arrogant or insensitive.

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and 
 were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth 
 it?


10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?


 I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they 
 are cheap enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your 
 investment in buying a mac increases your income significantly 
 (as it did for me), the cost doesn't matter. It's an enabler 
 for things that just aren't possible without it.


I guess that explains why so many programs with the same 
functionality are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. 
Open-source software development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a 
negative net gain.
Jun 12 2015
parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able
 to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it?


 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?


OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an 
iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than 
10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth 
investing in, no?


 I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap
 enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying
 a mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost
 doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible
 without it.


 I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality
 are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software
 development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.


I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on one 
platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free for 
your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives.

And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify 
buying a computer of any kind. That's not what I was saying.

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:42:37 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
 wrote:

 Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and 
 were able
 to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it?


 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?


 OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can 
 make as an iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can 
 make much more than 10x $160 per month. But if it increases 
 your salary, it's worth investing in, no?


You said 10x salary increase, not 10x return on investment. I 
won't argue with that. But just owning a piece of hardware isn't 
going to *multiply* your existing income.


 I guess that explains why so many programs with the same 
 functionality
 are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source 
 software
 development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.


 I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge 
 money on one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps 
 from Apple are free for your Mac. Those that aren't generally 
 have free alternatives.


Last time I looked there was a pretty big difference in the 
diversity and availability of 3rd-party software. Which makes 
sense considering also the much smaller user market share.


 And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't 
 justify buying a computer of any kind.


What?

Here's the problem: if I own a PC, I can install Windows, Linux, 
FreeBSD etc. on it with no problems, or I can run any in a VM. I 
can do neither with OS X, I have to buy overpriced hardware from 
Apple to do that.
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:47:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 [...]


I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with 
this thread.
Jun 12 2015
parent "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:48:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:47:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
 wrote:

 [...]


 I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done 
 with this thread.


fedora > debian
vim > emacs
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 8:47 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:42:37 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able
 to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it?


 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?


 OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an
 iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than
 10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth
 investing in, no?


 You said 10x salary increase, not 10x return on investment.


I said 10x because your mom's salary was the same as the difference 
between Nick's laptop and a Mac mini. What a crazy equation :)

In any case, it's just the $160/month salary I was talking about.


 I won't
 argue with that. But just owning a piece of hardware isn't going to
 *multiply* your existing income.


It definitely increased my income. How much depends on how much your 
income was before. If it's > cost of the system, then I would say it's 
worth it. I guess I look at things differently.


 I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality
 are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software
 development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.


 I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on
 one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free
 for your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives.


 Last time I looked there was a pretty big difference in the diversity
 and availability of 3rd-party software. Which makes sense considering
 also the much smaller user market share.


I haven't had a problem yet finding software that does what I need in Macos.


 And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify
 buying a computer of any kind.


 What?


The equation is:

salary(currentEquipment) < salary(currentEquipment + newEqupiment) - 
costOfNewEquipment

If your salary increase for adding new equipment, whatever it is, is 
negative, then the salary increase can't be a justifying factor for 
purchasing the new equipment.


 Here's the problem: if I own a PC, I can install Windows, Linux, FreeBSD
 etc. on it with no problems, or I can run any in a VM. I can do neither
 with OS X, I have to buy overpriced hardware from Apple to do that.


Again, if the fact that the hardware is overpriced is a potential 
deal-breaker, then it isn't for you. Don't run OSX if you don't want to. 
Don't write code for iOS if you don't want to. If you do want to, and 
you intend to use it to increase your income, then the "overpriced" 
hardware is worth it. That's ALL I'm saying.

On 6/12/15 8:48 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with this
 thread.


Well, OK then. I didn't know it was a holy war :)

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/12/2015 08:03 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On 6/12/15 2:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are
 laptops, with screen and battery and everything.


 If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you,
 you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you
 need. That was part of my point.


It was late and I (mis?)interpreted your statement as "Macs are 
inexpensive these days". I was only making a counterargument to that.

I'm not saying it can't be worthwhile investment in certain cases. If I 
had a mobile program out that was doing well on some other platform (ex 
Android), I'd certainly pony up for the various iOS costs-of-entry.

But it *is* still a much higher cost-of-entry for most people (since 
most people aren't already on OSX) than for the other mobile platforms.

It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on 
what's now being called "side-loading" (or as I've called it since the 
1980's, "Running my own freaking software on my own freaking machine"). 
Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard (last I 
checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to, but 
there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily geared 
towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only tools).
Jun 12 2015
parent reply "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 19:36:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a 
 bit on what's now being called "side-loading" (or as I've 
 called it since the 1980's, "Running my own freaking software 
 on my own freaking machine"). Now it appears MS has dropped to 
 last place in that regard (last I checked, they kinda let you 
 do it, moreso than Apple used to, but there's still some goofy 
 restrictions and it appeared primarily geared towards 
 corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only tools).


it will never cease to amaze me that people are paying for things 
they don't even own.

If you can't modify something, you don't own it - you're leasing 
it.
Jun 12 2015
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/12/2015 03:46 PM, weaselcat wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 19:36:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on
 what's now being called "side-loading" (or as I've called it since the
 1980's, "Running my own freaking software on my own freaking
 machine"). Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard
 (last I checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to,
 but there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily
 geared towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only
 tools).


 it will never cease to amaze me that people are paying for things they
 don't even own.

 If you can't modify something, you don't own it - you're leasing it.


Yea. Problem is, there isn't much choice. If you need mobile internet 
access, then you can't vote with your wallet because they ALL do it.

I really wish PalmOS was still around. Those were well-designed, 
practical, easy-to-use AND non-Orwellian. Version 6 in particular was 
looking really nice. But Xerox's patent trolls forced Palm to botch up 
the Graffiti system, and then the device manufacturers effectively 
killed PalmOS 6 because they refused to make anything but iOS clones 
('cause that's where the "buzz" was), hence the WebOS debacle. And 
that's how we got where we are today. :(
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote:

 Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install 
 your own
 iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to 
 run Xcode.

 http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/


 Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain 
 available
 outside OS X.  The Android toolchain is available for all 
 three major
 desktop platforms.  Still, good that at least you don't have 
 to pay now.


 You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using 
 objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app 
 store without Xcode.

 Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other 
 platforms -- it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes 
 things very easy for them support-wise, and people still line 
 up to get iPhones, so the incentive to support other platforms 
 isn't really there.

 At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They 
 are good systems to use.

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs 
 $500 new, and you get Xcode free.

 -Steve


The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with 
around 1000€ for many university degrees.

You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac.

--
Paulo
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent reply "Adrian Matoga" <epi atari8.info> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 07:36:51 UTC, Paulo  Pinto wrote:

 The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with 
 around 1000€ for many university degrees.

 You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac.

 --
 Paulo


I remember I saw almost every student at IST with a Mac, and
when everyone started to talk about the crisis, people were like
"uhm, well, we can't now afford to replace our Macs with new ones
every year, only every other year maybe".
Jun 12 2015
parent "Paulo Pinto " <pjmlp progtools.com> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 07:57:27 UTC, Adrian Matoga wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 07:36:51 UTC, Paulo  Pinto wrote:

 The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with 
 around 1000€ for many university degrees.

 You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac.

 --
 Paulo


 I remember I saw almost every student at IST with a Mac, and
 when everyone started to talk about the crisis, people were like
 "uhm, well, we can't now afford to replace our Macs with new 
 ones
 every year, only every other year maybe".


IST is one of the best  universities  in the country.

The majority  of the students are from middle, upper, claases. 
Although  there are also exceptions, of course.

Also many that do buy one, do so with a 3 -5 year long leasing.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 3:36 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote:

 Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own
 iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode.

 http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/


 Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available
 outside OS X.  The Android toolchain is available for all three major
 desktop platforms.  Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now.


 You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using
 objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store
 without Xcode.

 Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other platforms --
 it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very easy for
 them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, so the
 incentive to support other platforms isn't really there.

 At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They are good
 systems to use.

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with around
 1000€ for many university degrees.

 You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac.



Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my 
macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it 
since doing iOS work.

If you want to make minimum wage, I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent reply "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I 
 bought my macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 
 50x that with it since doing iOS work.


You don't find it odd that my 2012 mac mini is faster than 
similarly priced macs today?

What kind of apps do you make, it would be fun to have a look at 
them :)
Jun 12 2015
parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 8:07 AM, "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= 
<ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang gmail.com>" wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my
 macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it
 since doing iOS work.


 You don't find it odd that my 2012 mac mini is faster than similarly
 priced macs today?


I do find it odd! Generally apple lowers their prices periodically for 
their newer versions, and the new stuff is usually faster.

But, they do typically take away higher options for older models. For 
instance, the iPhones when they become the cheaper option, they limit 
the memory to 8 or 16GB.

Looking at wikipedia, I see they don't offer a quad-core for the 2014 
version as a base option (and they went from i7 to i5!), that's a shame.

Also, not upgradeable RAM... I take it back. Don't buy one of these :) 
Buy a used 2012 version instead! That's a significant downgrade, I don't 
know who's deciding these things, but that's definitely a failure.


 What kind of apps do you make, it would be fun to have a look at them :)


This is the app I worked on for 2 years (under contract): 
http://www.replaylocker.com/ I only worked with the iOS version, not the 
android version (which is a hand-ported clone of the iOS).

I also wrote all the server code (C++ unfortunately, but you can 
definitely see my D roots in it :), which ran on an ARM based SBC. It 
was a pretty neat project, lots of networking challenges.

There used to be demos to download so you could see how the system works 
without actually being in a location that supported it, but I think they 
took those down to save on bandwidth. So if you install the app, you 
likely will be disappointed :)

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
parent "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:34:06 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 Also, not upgradeable RAM... I take it back. Don't buy one of 
 these :) Buy a used 2012 version instead! That's a significant 
 downgrade, I don't know who's deciding these things, but that's 
 definitely a failure.


Yeah, buy used, refurbished or just look for ways to upgrade 
parts seems like a good idea these days. Maybe companies like 
Apple and Microsoft just need control freaks like Jobs and Gates 
to keep things focused?

I wonder if they had problems making MacPro earn back R&D and saw 
iOS dev accounts making purchases of the 4-core minis. That could 
explain this "rational business decision" at the cost of bad PR 
with developers.

In my country the mid-end MacPro (6 cores 3.5Ghz) is at 5164USD, 
but a store bought Haswell CPU 6 cores 3.3Ghz is at 477USD. That 
does not add up!

By building my own I'd probably save over 60% for my use 
(compiling) .


 This is the app I worked on for 2 years (under contract): 
 http://www.replaylocker.com/ I only worked with the iOS 
 version, not the android version (which is a hand-ported clone 
 of the iOS).


That's pretty cool! Of course, if you have a contract with a 
solid entity you can also invest with a light heart :-).

Investing in your own ideas in order to make money back on the 
app-store with no contract is a very risky investment though.


 bandwidth. So if you install the app, you likely will be 
 disappointed :)


Ah, but the website explains it pretty well. Looks like a very 
nice project to get involved with. Of course, next time you'll 
get to push harder for D since it has better C++ interop now. :)
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
wrote:

 On 6/12/15 3:36 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer 
 wrote:

 On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote:

 On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote:

 Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install 
 your own
 iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to 
 run Xcode.

 http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/


 Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain 
 available
 outside OS X.  The Android toolchain is available for all 
 three major
 desktop platforms.  Still, good that at least you don't have 
 to pay now.


 You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using
 objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the 
 app store
 without Xcode.

 Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other 
 platforms --
 it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very 
 easy for
 them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, 
 so the
 incentive to support other platforms isn't really there.

 At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They 
 are good
 systems to use.

 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini 
 costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


 The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with 
 around
 1000€ for many university degrees.

 You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac.



 Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I 
 bought my macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 
 50x that with it since doing iOS work.

 If you want to make minimum wage, I can guess you shouldn't buy 
 a mac :)

 -Steve


Which wouldn't happen in Portugal, where it is easier to see 
someone on the street with Android, WP, feature phone than iOS.

While most handsets are bought with pre-paid cards, iPhone 
requires a contract.

Before Apple was reborn, buying a Mac meant having to travel to 
Porto or Lisbon and get one there, with leasing. Same thing to 
get them repaired.

My university in Lisbon (UNL) was the first time I got to see LCs 
live, even then only used by administrative personal and one room 
for students with around 10 of them.

Everywhere else on the campus there were DG/UX, Aix terminals and 
PCs available.

Nowadays you can get them everywhere at a big surface, but for 
most families still means making use of 3 - 5 years leasing, 
given the average salaries and life cost.

--
Paulo
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one.


Fixed.


 If you want to make minimum wage,


You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower 
once in a while.


[...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)


In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards here.

The correct order is:

1: Obtain $
2: THEN Spend $
3: GOTO 1

Notice how the loop can only be primed with "Obtain", not "Spend shit 
you don't fucking even have".
Jun 12 2015
parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 6/12/15 3:44 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one.


 Fixed.


 If you want to make minimum wage,


 You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower
 once in a while.


Gladly, it's nice outside today!


 [...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)


 In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards here.

 The correct order is:

 1: Obtain $
 2: THEN Spend $
 3: GOTO 1

 Notice how the loop can only be primed with "Obtain", not "Spend shit
 you don't fucking even have".


Are you fucking kidding me? People who work minimum wage jobs have 
iPhones. They have credit cards. If someone has the ability to make 
above minimum wage, and all they have to do is finance the purchase of a 
mac, if they don't do it, then they have their priorities messed up.

Note, I don't think everyone *can* make money if they just purchase a 
mac. I'm saying if you have the skills (and desire), and it costs you 
the risk of charging $500 on a credit card, you should do it if all you 
can get is minimum wage work otherwise. This is exactly how people get 
ahead in life, they don't wait for handouts. People who have successful 
businesses didn't start out with magical seed capital that didn't have 
to be paid back, they started out by working hard, making do with what 
they had, sacrificing other things, learning from their mistakes, and 
building on their successes. They don't cry in the corner saying "poor 
me, if only I had X I could get ahead." Ask any person who built a company.

Anyway, this is getting far too political. Now, about that bikeshed color...

-Steve
Jun 12 2015
next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/12/2015 04:33 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On 6/12/15 3:44 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one.


 Fixed.


 If you want to make minimum wage,


 You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower
 once in a while.


 Gladly, it's nice outside today!


 [...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)


 In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards
 here.

 The correct order is:

 1: Obtain $
 2: THEN Spend $
 3: GOTO 1

 Notice how the loop can only be primed with "Obtain", not "Spend shit
 you don't fucking even have".


 Are you fucking kidding me? People who work minimum wage jobs have
 iPhones. They have credit cards. If someone has the ability to make
 above minimum wage, and all they have to do is finance the purchase of a
 mac, if they don't do it, then they have their priorities messed up.


Well, granted, if they have a minimum wage job *and* one of those 
$100+/month iPhone plans, then yea, their priorities probably are a bit 
borked.


 Note, I don't think everyone *can* make money if they just purchase a
 mac. I'm saying if you have the skills (and desire), and it costs you
 the risk of charging $500 on a credit card,


Which, believe it or not, not everyone can do. And even those who can, 
that's still, as you say, a risk.


you should do it if all you
 can get is minimum wage work otherwise. This is exactly how people get
 ahead in life, they don't wait for handouts. People who have successful
 businesses didn't start out with magical seed capital that didn't have
 to be paid back, they started out by working hard, making do with what
 they had, sacrificing other things, learning from their mistakes, and
 building on their successes. They don't cry in the corner saying "poor
 me, if only I had X I could get ahead." Ask any person who built a company.


Strawman.

That's obviously taking things waaay off at the other extreme. Nobody's 
suggesting anything of that sort. Just "work with what you have" and 
good old-fashioned bootstrapping.

But to act like everyone can always just go out and blow hundreds any 
time they damn well please (regardless of potential payoff) is just 
plain asinine bullshit and crassly ignores the basic fact that not 
everyone has the same resources you're clearly taking for granted. If 
Joe X doesn't have $Y (that isn't already earmarked for other apparently 
frivolous things, like, say food and shelter), then he can't fucking 
invest $Y until he does have it, no matter how much the rich 
self-entitled douchehbags toss around their favorite fucking "handouts" 
strawman.

Go buy yourself 100 manufacturing plants. You should already be able to 
afford to BECAUSE it would make you money afterwords. Oh, wait, you 
can't do that? Go do it anyway and quit demanding handouts.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/12/2015 04:33 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Anyway, this is getting far too political. Now, about that bikeshed
 color...


True, fair enough.
Jun 12 2015
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2015-06-12 06:51, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:


 You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using
 objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store
 without Xcode.


I think Microsoft supports this. I don't remeber all the details but I 
think they showed launching an iOS simulator from Visual Studio, also 
launching the Apple iOS simulator running on a Mac.

They've also implemented Cocoa Touch on Windows 10 to allow to easily 
port iOS application to Windows 10.

Then there's of course Xamarin with its Mono that supports iOS development.


 The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
 new, and you get Xcode free.


In Sweden it costs $670.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 12 2015