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digitalmars.D - Who pays for all this?

reply Shammah Chancellor <email domain.com> writes:
I've been a member of the D community for about 13 years now, and I'm 
impressed with how much has happened over that period of time with the 
language and community.   However, I wonder who pays for all of this?   
I feel like a lot of the infrastructure is taken for granted, and 
provided ad-hoc by members of the community and/or Walter Bright from 
his non-D ventures.

Might it be time for a formation of a D Programming Language Foundation 
to which people can donate and funds some of the hosting, and possibly 
pay for some time of the various heavy contributors?

-Shammah
Oct 04 2014
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 10/4/2014 5:18 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:

 I've been a member of the D community for about 13 years now, and I'm impressed
 with how much has happened over that period of time with the language and
 community.   However, I wonder who pays for all of this? I feel like a lot of
 the infrastructure is taken for granted, and provided ad-hoc by members of the
 community and/or Walter Bright from his non-D ventures.


Yes, lots of us contribute things that cost money. For example, David Held 
recently donated 8 rack servers to power the autotester. Brad Roberts has 
financed the rest of the autotester and its ongoing expenses. Vladimir is 
hosting the D forums and keeps them running smoothly. Lots more have stepped up 
as needed.



 Might it be time for a formation of a D Programming Language Foundation to
which
 people can donate and funds some of the hosting, and possibly pay for some time
 of the various heavy contributors?


We're not really limited by lack of funds, but more by lack of focussed effort. 
If anyone wants to contribute funds, probably the best use would be to add bug 
bounties for bugzilla issues that they find to be neglected. The bounties don't 
really compensate at professional rates, but they do work as a nice "thanks" to 
those who donate their valuable time.
Oct 04 2014
next sibling parent reply Etienne <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On 2014-10-04 11:33 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're not really limited by lack of funds, but more by lack of focussed
 effort. If anyone wants to contribute funds, probably the best use would
 be to add bug bounties for bugzilla issues that they find to be
 neglected. The bounties don't really compensate at professional rates,
 but they do work as a nice "thanks" to those who donate their valuable
 time.


Programmers cost money, it would be nice to have a D Foundation where 
companies can donate and maybe eventually use the funds to pay for 
professional staffing rather than relying only on contributors. The D 
foundation can eventually grow towards having engineers on the phone to 
reassure some about development bottlenecks in the low-level software. 
Examples would be Mozilla foundation or Wikimedia foundation but with an 
Oracle or IBM type of service for support. It's an easily missed 
requirement in corporate decisions for reliance on software.
Oct 05 2014
parent reply "Sean Kelly" <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
On Sunday, 5 October 2014 at 18:06:49 UTC, Etienne wrote:

 Programmers cost money, it would be nice to have a D Foundation 
 where companies can donate and maybe eventually use the funds 
 to pay for professional staffing rather than relying only on 
 contributors. The D foundation can eventually grow towards 
 having engineers on the phone to reassure some about 
 development bottlenecks in the low-level software. Examples 
 would be Mozilla foundation or Wikimedia foundation but with an 
 Oracle or IBM type of service for support. It's an easily 
 missed requirement in corporate decisions for reliance on 
 software.


Boost consulting comes to mind as well.  Though I honestly 
couldn't say how practical this is for D today.
Oct 05 2014
parent "Brad Anderson" <eco gnuk.net> writes:
On Sunday, 5 October 2014 at 20:45:06 UTC, Sean Kelly wrote:

 On Sunday, 5 October 2014 at 18:06:49 UTC, Etienne wrote:

 Programmers cost money, it would be nice to have a D 
 Foundation where companies can donate and maybe eventually use 
 the funds to pay for professional staffing rather than relying 
 only on contributors. The D foundation can eventually grow 
 towards having engineers on the phone to reassure some about 
 development bottlenecks in the low-level software. Examples 
 would be Mozilla foundation or Wikimedia foundation but with 
 an Oracle or IBM type of service for support. It's an easily 
 missed requirement in corporate decisions for reliance on 
 software.


 Boost consulting comes to mind as well.  Though I honestly 
 couldn't say how practical this is for D today.


Well, Boost Consulting is no more so, given D's much smaller user
base, I suspect it wouldn't be very sustainable for D either.
Oct 05 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Shammah Chancellor <email domain.com> writes:
On 2014-10-05 03:33:36 +0000, Walter Bright said:


 We're not really limited by lack of funds, but more by lack of focussed 
 effort. If anyone wants to contribute funds, probably the best use 
 would be to add bug bounties for bugzilla issues that they find to be 
 neglected. The bounties don't really compensate at professional rates, 
 but they do work as a nice "thanks" to those who donate their valuable 
 time.


I've placed a couple of anonymous bounties, but I personally think it's 
a bad way to get directed focused effort.  A democracy of people trying 
to get what they individually want done through small donations?

There are many languages which have grown more quickly than D (despite 
being less interesting) because they have a foundation where people can 
donate, or some company, which provides for the core developers.   I'm 
not saying that having a non-profit will magically generate money, but 
there are a few companies who use D out there who just might be willing 
to donate non-trivial sums of money to further development if there was 
a non-profit to see that the money was put to good use.

Just to name a few:

Python: https://www.python.org/psf-landing/
Node.JS:  http://www.joyent.com/
Perl: http://www.perlfoundation.org
Linux Core Developers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation
Ruby Core Developers: https://www.heroku.com (A subsidiary of Salesforce)

-S
Oct 05 2014
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/5/14, 7:28 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:

 There are many languages which have grown more quickly than D (despite
 being less interesting) because they have a foundation where people can
 donate, or some company, which provides for the core developers.   I'm
 not saying that having a non-profit will magically generate money, but
 there are a few companies who use D out there who just might be willing
 to donate non-trivial sums of money to further development if there was
 a non-profit to see that the money was put to good use.

 Just to name a few:

 Python: https://www.python.org/psf-landing/
 Node.JS:  http://www.joyent.com/
 Perl: http://www.perlfoundation.org
 Linux Core Developers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation
 Ruby Core Developers: https://www.heroku.com (A subsidiary of Salesforce)


C++ also has a foundation since 2012: 
http://pocoproject.org/blog/?p=671. It paid for CppCon 2014, which was 
very successful.

I believe a foundation would help D. Unfortunately, setting one up is 
very laborious, and neither Walter nor I know anything about that - from 
what I understand it takes a _lot_ of work. If anyone is able and 
willing to embark on creating a foundation for D, that would be a great 
help to the language and its community.


Andrei
Oct 05 2014
next sibling parent reply "Edwin van Leeuwen" <edder tkwsping.nl> writes:
On Monday, 6 October 2014 at 04:09:11 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 I believe a foundation would help D. Unfortunately, setting one 
 up is very laborious, and neither Walter nor I know anything 
 about that - from what I understand it takes a _lot_ of work. 
 If anyone is able and willing to embark on creating a 
 foundation for D, that would be a great help to the language 
 and its community.


An alternative is to join an umbrella organisation that has 
experience setting up foundations for open source projects. To 
name a couple:
Software Freedom Conservancy (Boost), Software in the Public 
Interest, and the Outercurve Foundation. As far as I understand 
it these organisations will help you with the paperwork, but you 
have full autonomy outside of that.

See http://lwn.net/Articles/561336/ for some more 
suggestions/ideas.

Edwin
Oct 06 2014
parent Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
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On 06/10/14 09:12, Edwin van Leeuwen via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[…]

 An alternative is to join an umbrella organisation that has
 experience setting up foundations for open source projects. To name
 a couple: Software Freedom Conservancy (Boost), Software in the
 Public Interest, and the Outercurve Foundation. As far as I
 understand it these organisations will help you with the paperwork,
 but you have full autonomy outside of that.
 
 See http://lwn.net/Articles/561336/ for some more
 suggestions/ideas.


SCons used to have a USA-based foundation, but it lapsed. The various
opinions sought indicate that reapplying would be too costly and too
much of a burden. The current plan is to follow Buildbot and be a
foundation under the umbrella of Software Freedom Conservancy. Thus
this might be the best route for a D Foundation.

I am writing this from memory rather than consulting the various email
threads, so details lacking: there are some significant downsides to
the Software Freedom Conservancy route, but the Buildbot folk decided
it was worth it and this is a significant factor for SCons. I suspect
SCons will be a member as soon as a couple of legal issues are
resolved wrt cash and copyrights.

- -- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
sip:russel.winder ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
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Oct 06 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On Monday, 6 October 2014 at 04:09:11 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 I believe a foundation would help D. Unfortunately, setting one 
 up is very laborious, and neither Walter nor I know anything 
 about that - from what I understand it takes a _lot_ of work.


By "foundation", do you mean "non-profit organization"?  Would it 
be any simpler as far as you are concerned to set up an 
organization without initially worrying about its non-profit 
status?
Oct 06 2014
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/6/14, 4:19 AM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:

 On Monday, 6 October 2014 at 04:09:11 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 I believe a foundation would help D. Unfortunately, setting one up is
 very laborious, and neither Walter nor I know anything about that -
 from what I understand it takes a _lot_ of work.


 By "foundation", do you mean "non-profit organization"?  Would it be any
 simpler as far as you are concerned to set up an organization without
 initially worrying about its non-profit status?


I don't know. -- Andrei
Oct 06 2014
prev sibling parent Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
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On 06/10/14 12:19, Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[…]

 By "foundation", do you mean "non-profit organization"?  Would it
 be any simpler as far as you are concerned to set up an
 organization without initially worrying about its non-profit
 status?


Indeed D Foundation would be a non-profit company.

The non-profit status is, I believe, somewhat important since without
it the organization is required to be driven by increasing shareholder
value, this is not entirely consistent with being holder of IP for a
FOSS project and handling donations from other organization (profit,
non-profit, or other). The legal issues are minor compared to the
marketing ones: donors want to know that their donations are going to
be used to move the projects forward not profit.

Obviously though creating a company and then going for non-profit
status is a resonable strategy. But the role as custodian of the
project should only be taken on once the non-profit status is in place.
- -- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
sip:russel.winder ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
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Oct 06 2014
prev sibling parent reply Shammah Chancellor <anonymous coward.com> writes:
On 2014-10-06 04:09:26 +0000, Andrei Alexandrescu said:


 On 10/5/14, 7:28 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:

 There are many languages which have grown more quickly than D (despite
 being less interesting) because they have a foundation where people can
 donate, or some company, which provides for the core developers.   I'm
 not saying that having a non-profit will magically generate money, but
 there are a few companies who use D out there who just might be willing
 to donate non-trivial sums of money to further development if there was
 a non-profit to see that the money was put to good use.
 
 Just to name a few:
 
 Python: https://www.python.org/psf-landing/
 Node.JS:  http://www.joyent.com/
 Perl: http://www.perlfoundation.org
 Linux Core Developers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation
 Ruby Core Developers: https://www.heroku.com (A subsidiary of Salesforce)


 
 C++ also has a foundation since 2012: 
 http://pocoproject.org/blog/?p=671. It paid for CppCon 2014, which was 
 very successful.
 
 I believe a foundation would help D. Unfortunately, setting one up is 
 very laborious, and neither Walter nor I know anything about that - 
 from what I understand it takes a _lot_ of work. If anyone is able and 
 willing to embark on creating a foundation for D, that would be a great 
 help to the language and its community.
 
 Andrei


I'm willing to put in the work if Walter is on board also.  I don't 
want to do all that work to end up being a DPL Foundation in name only.

-Shammah
Oct 06 2014
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/6/14, 12:59 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:

 I'm willing to put in the work if Walter is on board also.  I don't want
 to do all that work to end up being a DPL Foundation in name only.


That's very generous of you, thanks! We'll discuss this. From what I 
read at http://lwn.net/Articles/561336/, my understanding is that we'll 
need significant ongoing expenses in additional to the initial setup 
expenditure of time and money. Anyone who knows more about this please 
chime in. -- Andrei
Oct 06 2014
parent reply Shammah Chancellor <email domain.com> writes:
On 2014-10-06 22:28:52 +0000, Andrei Alexandrescu said:


 On 10/6/14, 12:59 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:

 I'm willing to put in the work if Walter is on board also.  I don't want
 to do all that work to end up being a DPL Foundation in name only.


 
 That's very generous of you, thanks! We'll discuss this. From what I 
 read at http://lwn.net/Articles/561336/, my understanding is that we'll 
 need significant ongoing expenses in additional to the initial setup 
 expenditure of time and money. Anyone who knows more about this please 
 chime in. -- Andrei


I'll start doing some research.   To be forward,  I am 100% ignorant of 
the process at the moment as well.

-S.
Oct 06 2014
parent "rst256" <ussr.24 yandex.ru> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 October 2014 at 01:11:42 UTC, Shammah Chancellor 
wrote:

 On 2014-10-06 22:28:52 +0000, Andrei Alexandrescu said:


 On 10/6/14, 12:59 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:

 I'm willing to put in the work if Walter is on board also.  I 
 don't want
 to do all that work to end up being a DPL Foundation in name 
 only.


 
 That's very generous of you, thanks! We'll discuss this. From 
 what I read at http://lwn.net/Articles/561336/, my 
 understanding is that we'll need significant ongoing expenses 
 in additional to the initial setup expenditure of time and 
 money. Anyone who knows more about this please chime in. -- 
 Andrei


 I'll start doing some research.   To be forward,  I am 100% 
 ignorant of the process at the moment as well.

 -S.


Very good idea. If you want i can help you.
I can suggest a few directions of to explore.
Source code toolkit: analytic, transformation...
I see this as script engine like js(dmdscript?) with extension 
for access to source code in object form, like this:
void foo(int i){
     int e;
   if(i<0){
     e = i;
   }
   write("yes we can!");
}
for script to be
{
functions:{
   foo:{ arg: {i: {type: int, default:no }, body:[
        {stament: "var_declare", name:"e", type: "int", default: 
no},
        {stament: "if", expression: "how it do this help!",
     /* how named main code block? */       block: {}
            else: no
        },
        {stament: "call", name:"write", arglist: ["yes we can!"]}
     ]
  }
}
}

Yes already have similar solutions but they usually focus on a 
static analysis of the code in one language.

But may be this is an expandable basis to do much more:
code analysis,
refactoring a large project simply by answering the wizard's 
questions,
a project update for the new api,
and my favorite migration between languages.

Migration between languages - this i think is especially impotant 
because if you have project greater than hello word you will 
actually slave chosen programming language.

Let's liberate the algorithms of their actual implementation and 
developers from the monotonous work!
Very wrong if you code on the 90% is a wrapper, polymorphism, or 
has long been created.
Oct 22 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
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On 06/10/14 03:28, Shammah Chancellor via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[…]

 I've placed a couple of anonymous bounties, but I personally think
 it's a bad way to get directed focused effort.  A democracy of
 people trying to get what they individually want done through small
 donations?
 
 […]


Conversely, Groovy has become a major language in the Java-verse
without a foundation. Historically it grew simply as a community FOSS
project but then as the major "applications" (Grails and Gradle being
the two main ones currently, but there are others), it became clear
that consulting companies could be profitable because there was
traction in the market. G2One was formed which was very quickly bought
by SpringSource which was bought by VMWare which got spawned off as
part of Pivotal. Pivotal do not own Groovy (though they do imply they
own Grails, which is fine) but they do fund three full-time employees
on the Groovy project. Also Gradleware was formed to consult about
Gradle use and managed to get Maven replaced by Gradle as the primary
build tool for Android (and also there was a shift from Eclipse to
IntelliJ IDEA as the basis of the primary IDE). Add to this the Spock
test framework which is rapidly gaining traction over TestNG and
JUnit4, and Groovy is actually in a very good position even without a
foundation.

Conversely to that a foundation is nonetheless being considered simply
as an organization to own the "product" (as PSF owns Python). However,
the USA is looking increasingly the place *NOT* to set up a
foundation. It is allright for existing ones, such as Python, but the
hurdles to create new ones are becoming astronomical.

UK, France and Germany are currently being investigated as places to
set up a "non profit". For the UK, the issue is for a company to
become a registered charity so as to be able to handle funds without
incurring corporation tax. There are other alternatives in the UK and
it is currently being checked whether one of these is a good route to
a full on charitable status company. The issue is whether conversion
of the originating organization to a company with charitable status
can be achieved as a single action. Sadly for us just now lawyers
opinions cost money…

 


- -- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
sip:russel.winder ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
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Oct 05 2014
prev sibling parent "Joakim" <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Monday, 6 October 2014 at 02:24:45 UTC, Shammah Chancellor 
wrote:

 On 2014-10-05 03:33:36 +0000, Walter Bright said:


 We're not really limited by lack of funds, but more by lack of 
 focussed effort. If anyone wants to contribute funds, probably 
 the best use would be to add bug bounties for bugzilla issues 
 that they find to be neglected. The bounties don't really 
 compensate at professional rates, but they do work as a nice 
 "thanks" to those who donate their valuable time.


 I've placed a couple of anonymous bounties, but I personally 
 think it's a bad way to get directed focused effort.  A 
 democracy of people trying to get what they individually want 
 done through small donations?


Yes, that is the way democracy works, what is the problem?  The 
only benefit from a foundation is that they can make decisions 
for the community that individual donors may not have the 
information to make, including a co-BFDL like Andrei with his 
specific expertise.  Well, if you want to follow Andrei, just add 
on to each of his bountysource bounties, and if you want to 
follow the community, just randomly add to existing D 
bountysource bounties or to all of them.  It would be nice if the 
wiki had links to the D bountysource projects though:

https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/383571-d-programming-language
https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/283332-ldc
https://www.bountysource.com/trackers/455080-gdc

I notice that the top issue is at $1k now, not bad.


 There are many languages which have grown more quickly than D 
 (despite being less interesting) because they have a foundation 
 where people can donate, or some company, which provides for 
 the core developers.   I'm not saying that having a non-profit 
 will magically generate money, but there are a few companies 
 who use D out there who just might be willing to donate 
 non-trivial sums of money to further development if there was a 
 non-profit to see that the money was put to good use.

 Just to name a few:

 Python: https://www.python.org/psf-landing/
 Node.JS:  http://www.joyent.com/
 Perl: http://www.perlfoundation.org
 Linux Core Developers: 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation
 Ruby Core Developers: https://www.heroku.com (A subsidiary of 
 Salesforce)


I agree with you that a company would help, though I don't see 
much gain from a non-profit, especially if it's as much work to 
set up as Andrei says.  If you want your money "put to good use," 
I don't see how your bounties on bountysource would be abused.  
Those bounties or individually contacting Andrei or Iain about 
funding the project expenses they've detailed strikes me as a far 
more direct way to contribute to the community than throwing 
money at a foundation and forgetting about it.  Yes, you won't 
get to deduct tax from your contribution, but that's the least of 
our concerns.
Oct 06 2014
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/4/14, 8:33 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Might it be time for a formation of a D Programming Language
 Foundation to which
 people can donate and funds some of the hosting, and possibly pay for
 some time
 of the various heavy contributors?


 We're not really limited by lack of funds,


whaaa


 but more by lack of focussed
 effort. If anyone wants to contribute funds, probably the best use would
 be to add bug bounties for bugzilla issues that they find to be
 neglected. The bounties don't really compensate at professional rates,
 but they do work as a nice "thanks" to those who donate their valuable
 time.


A $150 monthly contribution would cover our hosting costs. $1000 per 
month would cover the yearly basic costs for DConf. $500 more per month 
would add A/V for the conference. We've had DConf partially sponsored, 
but it's good to have autonomy. Some more couple thousands would buy us 
things like a web designer. $2000 or more per month would possibly get 
us a person to put on things that are urgent and important.

We're very much limited by the lack of funds.


Andrei
Oct 05 2014
next sibling parent Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 6 Oct 2014 05:05, "Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d" <
digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On 10/4/14, 8:33 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Might it be time for a formation of a D Programming Language
 Foundation to which
 people can donate and funds some of the hosting, and possibly pay for
 some time
 of the various heavy contributors?



 We're not really limited by lack of funds,



 whaaa



 but more by lack of focussed
 effort. If anyone wants to contribute funds, probably the best use would
 be to add bug bounties for bugzilla issues that they find to be
 neglected. The bounties don't really compensate at professional rates,
 but they do work as a nice "thanks" to those who donate their valuable
 time.



 A $150 monthly contribution would cover our hosting costs.


Around $18 monthly would cover the cost of hosting costs for everything on
gdcproject.org.

Saying that, I have been slowly collecting donations of hardware and having
a location to host the kit to be set-up as build/port boxes would be nice.
Currently have a PPC server, an ARM box, and an Epiphany board. In the next
months expecting a MIPS board and an IA-64 server.

Iain
Oct 05 2014
prev sibling parent Martin Nowak <code+news.digitalmars dawg.eu> writes:
On 10/06/2014 06:02 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Some more couple thousands would buy us things like a web designer.


Well we had some people working on a new website (http://w0rp.com:8010/) 
and if someone had collaborated with them to advance and integrate the 
work we would have a new website by now.
Oct 26 2014