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digitalmars.D - Time to do a Man's Work ??

reply Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> writes:
It's getting to a fortnight since Andrei last posted here.

That'd be the longest pause he ever had here.

Walter has (both presumably, and hopefully) the closest contact with 
him. Kris (and John) was instrumental in the "rise to barricades".

Now, John has already showed he's a Real Man, When It Comes Down To It.


What I'm right now expecting, is: Walter tells us Andrei's disappearance 
had nothing to do with "the incident". _Failing that_, I expect Kris to 
see to it that Andrei resumes feeling welcome here, and picks up the 
intellectual intercourse with us that was so sorely missed before 
Andrei's arrival.

----

Kris may not feel it's "his fault". Understandable. But as it seems to 
the audience, he's dead at ground zero here. A Real Man would know what 
a Real Man's Got To Do.
Apr 13 2007
next sibling parent reply "Lionello Lunesu" <lionello lunesu.remove.com> writes:
"Georg Wrede" <georg nospam.org> wrote in message 
news:461FF647.6000805 nospam.org...

 It's getting to a fortnight since Andrei last posted here.

 That'd be the longest pause he ever had here.

 Walter has (both presumably, and hopefully) the closest contact with him. 
 Kris (and John) was instrumental in the "rise to barricades".

 Now, John has already showed he's a Real Man, When It Comes Down To It.


 What I'm right now expecting, is: Walter tells us Andrei's disappearance 
 had nothing to do with "the incident".


It might just be possible that he's recovering from Orthodox Easter. The 
whole country (Romania) seems kind-of paralyzed by the nation-wide feast 
that takes place after the fasting.

Seriously though, I too hope that Andrei will be back. I sure like reading 
his views on D. That, and the fact that I love to see my romanian colleagues 
panic when I show them another of his posts in this group. (They are C++ 
fans and regard Andrei's interest in D as treason)

And what's more, we got "ref"!

L.
Apr 13 2007
parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Lionello Lunesu wrote:

 "Georg Wrede" <georg nospam.org> wrote in message 
 news:461FF647.6000805 nospam.org...

 It's getting to a fortnight since Andrei last posted here.

 That'd be the longest pause he ever had here.

 Walter has (both presumably, and hopefully) the closest contact with him. 
 Kris (and John) was instrumental in the "rise to barricades".

 Now, John has already showed he's a Real Man, When It Comes Down To It.


 What I'm right now expecting, is: Walter tells us Andrei's disappearance 
 had nothing to do with "the incident".


 
 It might just be possible that he's recovering from Orthodox Easter. The 
 whole country (Romania) seems kind-of paralyzed by the nation-wide feast 
 that takes place after the fasting.


He is a grad student now too.  Maybe he had to actually get back to 
doing some research work to make his advisor happy.  Maybe he's working 
hard on a paper.  A lot of submission deadlines for conferences are 
around this time of year.  And there's spring break too.  Maybe he's out 
playing with 2 many knives[1].

Or maybe he just decided to give Walter a chance to catch up. :-)



 Seriously though, I too hope that Andrei will be back. 


Me too.


 I sure like reading his views on D. That, and the fact that I love to see my
romanian colleagues
 panic when I show them another of his posts in this group. (They are C++ 
 fans and regard Andrei's interest in D as treason)


Heh heh.


 And what's more, we got "ref"!


In Romania, "ref" gets YOU!  Oh nevermind...

[1] http://www.homestarrunner.com/2manyknives.html

--bb
Apr 13 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Manfred Nowak <svv1999 hotmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote


 picks up the intellectual intercourse with us that was so sorely
 missed before Andrei's arrival.


I do not believe that intellectual intercourses itself are wanted from 
the "us" you are speaking for.

Its the stardom of Andrei that is appreciated and Walters acceptance of 
Andrei which brings Andrei in the same position which once belonged to 
Matthew.

Walter once said, that he appreciates Andrei's academic rigor. But if 
anybody was lacking academic rigor there were plenty of people who 
could  put that in.

You yourself once attacked Stewart Gordon, who has a PhD, for his 
monitoring and especially indicating some of Walters not quite 
academically driven habits.

Many seem unable to recognize the group dynamics acting in here.

-manfred
Apr 13 2007
next sibling parent reply "David B. Held" <dheld codelogicconsulting.com> writes:
Manfred Nowak wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote
 

 picks up the intellectual intercourse with us that was so sorely
 missed before Andrei's arrival.


 
 I do not believe that intellectual intercourses itself are wanted from 
 the "us" you are speaking for.
 
 Its the stardom of Andrei that is appreciated and Walters acceptance of 
 Andrei which brings Andrei in the same position which once belonged to 
 Matthew.


There's no doubt that Andrei's notoriety lends a certain amount of 
credibility to the D enterprise.  Rest assured that Andrei has not 
disappeared from the face of D, but he has decided to give up the 
newsgroup (or rather, he decided that when he felt it got too 
uncivilized for his tastes).  So, don't hold your breath waiting for him 
to come back.  He will continue to contribute to D, but in a less 
overtly visible manner.


 Walter once said, that he appreciates Andrei's academic rigor. But if 
 anybody was lacking academic rigor there were plenty of people who 
 could  put that in.
 
 You yourself once attacked Stewart Gordon, who has a PhD, for his 
 monitoring and especially indicating some of Walters not quite 
 academically driven habits.
 
 Many seem unable to recognize the group dynamics acting in here.


I'm not sure what Dr. Gordon's credentials are, and there is no doubt 
that the D community possesses many smart members.  What I think makes 
Andrei unique is that he not only has a strong academic background, but 
also strong industrial experience.  Whereas many language designers tend 
towards "pure" languages, sacrificing some practicality to achieve 
elegance, Andrei is not above getting his hands dirty and doing the 
practical thing to achieve a good result, while citing academic 
precedents for going down each path.  His experience with the C++ 
Committee, which is very much an industrial group, gives him an insider 
perspective on a large, mature language, while his academic work (which 
isn't all computer science-related) motivates his perspective as a 
language user (of many languages).  Finally, his position as a library 
and book author puts him in the position of receiving regular feedback 
from users, which I'm sure lends a wealth of perspectives.

That's not to say nobody else could or does have a similar level of 
experience, but I'm often surprised how talk of a new language feature 
leads Andrei to bring up prior work and academic papers.  He simply has 
an encyclopaedic knowledge of PL design, which is much of why Walter 
appreciates his input.  Also, unlike many pure academics, Andrei is 
interested in solving the problems of real users, rather than merely 
theoretically interesting problems.  He is especially interested in the 
problems of that special user which is himself.  This puts him in a 
different position than someone like Walter, who thinks of the language 
primarily as its designer; and I think it's a very useful balance to 
have.  Thus, Andrei blends the elegance of academic rigor with advocacy 
for the user.  He never recommends a feature that he thinks will be hard 
to use (MC++D notwithstanding).

Perhaps there is a small element of personality cult involved, and I 
think Andrei is popular partly because he is a personable and 
entertaining guy at times.  He has strong views on many topics and 
defends those views vigorously.  Most people appreciate confidence 
backed with rigor.  Of course, when people disagree, there is chance for 
conflict; and some conflicts are purely matters of personality, no 
doubt.  However, I think there are legitimate reasons for Walter to 
carefully consider Andrei's input; and if it makes you feel any better, 
I've never seen Andrei offer anybody Kool-Aid.

Dave
Apr 14 2007
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
I should add that Andrei is just plain a pleasure to work with.
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> writes:
David B. Held wrote:

 Rest assured that Andrei has not disappeared from the face of D,


Excellent!!!


 but he has decided to give up the newsgroup (or rather, he decided
 that when he felt it got too uncivilized for his tastes).


Appalling.

Too many of the discussions people entangled him in here were of such 
low quality that for Andrei, it was a total waste of time. Unless we 
here can improve substantially, there's no gain for him in coming back. 
Nor for the likes of him.

This is the first time I'm happy I've spent some years on the street in 
bad company. Makes me less uneasy with some inevitable phenomenons in 
life. (But the cost in health, time, and missed opportunities was quite 
high.) Or with picking up a fight when one's needed.

So, we've now demonstrated that we don't deserve the company of people 
head and shoulders taller than us.
Apr 14 2007
next sibling parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:


 but he has decided to give up the newsgroup (or rather, he decided
 that when he felt it got too uncivilized for his tastes).


 
 Appalling.
 
 Too many of the discussions people entangled him in here were of such
 low quality that for Andrei, it was a total waste of time. Unless we
 here can improve substantially, there's no gain for him in coming back.
 Nor for the likes of him.


If one cannot discuss things with the one who brought it up (which was
Andrei in the situation you're talking about), then I would see no reason
in having discussions here at all, and especially when the one you think is
at fault here ended up with defending allegations toward a project he has
spent considerable time on. Kris has himself stayed away from this
newsgroup since then due to the waste of time that these discussions were
(although one could find some technical enlightenment if one filtered out
the rest).

Personally I have never been the one spending too much time discussing
technicalities, but I certainly will spend even less time now. I don't feel
like sucking up allegations to the work of me and my teammates however, and
will continue to try and pick up Tango subjects in the newsgroups,
hopefully without being pulled forth to do a mans work.

There are other things in this world to feel strongly about.

---
To my home town, and those who lost their loved ones in the Bourbon Dolphin
capside, my deepest condolances.
--- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
Apr 14 2007
parent Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 To my home town, and those who lost their loved ones in the Bourbon Dolphin
 capside, my deepest condolances.


Helsinki being a port town, and with the Estonia disaster where many 
Finns died (And Swedes and Estonians), I can think how you feel.

Please, a warm thought to them from me too.
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 
 So, we've now demonstrated that we don't deserve the company of people 
 head and shoulders taller than us.


Oh, give me a break.


Sean
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
David B. Held wrote:

 credibility to the D enterprise.  Rest assured that Andrei has not 
 disappeared from the face of D, but he has decided to give up the 
 newsgroup (or rather, he decided that when he felt it got too 
 uncivilized for his tastes).  So, don't hold your breath waiting for him 


May I asked how you know this? Andrei brought a lot to these NG's, and I hope
he reconsiders.

Besides, there's always an alternative to "blacklisting" an entire group, and
that would be simply 
to ignore those who a) continually piss you off, b) start making personal
attacks and/or c) cannot 
let an argument drop w/ a "we'll just have to agree to disagree".


 to come back.  He will continue to contribute to D, but in a less 
 overtly visible manner.
 


Well, at least that's good to hear. I actually think that Andrei did a lot to
convince Walter to 
move on some issues that have often been argued for, and will benefit us all.
Apr 14 2007
parent reply "David B. Held" <dheld codelogicconsulting.com> writes:
Dave wrote:

 David B. Held wrote:

 credibility to the D enterprise.  Rest assured that Andrei has not 
 disappeared from the face of D, but he has decided to give up the 
 newsgroup (or rather, he decided that when he felt it got too 
 uncivilized for his tastes).  So, don't hold your breath waiting for him 


 
 May I asked how you know this?


I know him personally, and he related this information to me directly in 
a conversation.


 Andrei brought a lot to these NG's, and I hope he reconsiders.


Like others have pointed out, he's pretty busy (like we all are).  For 
him, giving up the D ng's is an opportunity to get things done.  You 
should be glad Walter doesn't post as much as Andrei did, or you'd never 
get bug fixes. ;)


 Besides, there's always an alternative to "blacklisting" an entire 
 group, and that would be simply to ignore those who a) continually piss 
 you off, b) start making personal attacks and/or c) cannot let an 
 argument drop w/ a "we'll just have to agree to disagree".


That's true, but Andrei was expecting the civility of a moderated group, 
where flame wars and personal attacks are stopped before they are 
started.  I don't think he has much tolerance for unmoderated groups, 
and if you've ever lurked on a group like comp.lang.c++, you can see 
why.  Some even considered starting a moderated D group, but in the end 
it was decided that D hasn't reached the point where that is net 
beneficial or necessary.


 [...]
 Well, at least that's good to hear. I actually think that Andrei did a 
 lot to convince Walter to move on some issues that have often been 
 argued for, and will benefit us all.


He's still arguing. ;)

Dave
Apr 14 2007
parent reply Jan Claeys <usenet janc.be> writes:
Op Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:07:09 -0700
schreef "David B. Held" <dheld codelogicconsulting.com>:


 That's true, but Andrei was expecting the civility of a moderated
 group, where flame wars and personal attacks are stopped before they
 are started.


A flamewar between 2 (groups of) people stops when 1 (one) side stops
replying...   ;-)


-- 
JanC
Apr 17 2007
parent "David B. Held" <dheld codelogicconsulting.com> writes:
Jan Claeys wrote:

 Op Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:07:09 -0700
 schreef "David B. Held" <dheld codelogicconsulting.com>:
 

 That's true, but Andrei was expecting the civility of a moderated
 group, where flame wars and personal attacks are stopped before they
 are started.


 
 A flamewar between 2 (groups of) people stops when 1 (one) side stops
 replying...   ;-)


Ending a flamewar is fundamentally different from not getting sucked 
into one (and exponentially harder, I might add).  That's why it's much 
cheaper to not start them.  Ever tried to put out a phosphorus fire?

Dave
Apr 18 2007
prev sibling parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
David B. Held wrote:

 
 Perhaps there is a small element of personality cult involved, and I 
 think Andrei is popular partly because he is a personable and 
 entertaining guy at times.  He has strong views on many topics and 
 defends those views vigorously.


To everyone but us, it seems.  I'll admit I'm more than a bit 
disappointed that Andrei gave up on public discussions of D.


Sean
Apr 14 2007
parent reply James Dennett <jdennett acm.org> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:

 David B. Held wrote:

 Perhaps there is a small element of personality cult involved, and I
 think Andrei is popular partly because he is a personable and
 entertaining guy at times.  He has strong views on many topics and
 defends those views vigorously.


 
 To everyone but us, it seems.  I'll admit I'm more than a bit
 disappointed that Andrei gave up on public discussions of D.


There's a distinction that seems key for constructive
discussion, that does not seem important to some here:
the difference between attacking/defending our technical
creations, and attacking/defending the people involved.

If we take the rules of one moderated forum with which
I am familiar, there are no limits on how forceful
criticisms of designs or implementations can be -- but
no personal attacks are permitted.  Occasionally
something slips past the moderators that others view
as a personal attack, and that usually wastes some
cycles when it does occur.  But rarely is there much
disruption from discussion of technical matters, even
when it's wrong/aggressive/discouraging.  Even the
very best programmers make many mistakes, and they
get to *be* the very best by being open to finding
those mistakes and learning from them.

Here I've seen people say "Why shouldn't A be attacked,
when A already attacked library B?".  The answer is:
A is a person, B is software.  Software doesn't need
people to be civil to it.  People do.  We have to make
decisions about how to use our limited time, and once
a particular avenue ceases to provide a viable return
on investment, it's often time to find another place
to expend the time and effort.

-- James
Apr 14 2007
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
James Dennett wrote:

 Here I've seen people say "Why shouldn't A be attacked,
 when A already attacked library B?".  The answer is:
 A is a person, B is software.  Software doesn't need
 people to be civil to it.  People do.  We have to make
 decisions about how to use our limited time, and once
 a particular avenue ceases to provide a viable return
 on investment, it's often time to find another place
 to expend the time and effort.


I agree.
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "David B. Held" <dheld codelogicconsulting.com> writes:
James Dennett wrote:

 [...]
 If we take the rules of one moderated forum with which
 I am familiar, there are no limits on how forceful
 criticisms of designs or implementations can be -- but
 no personal attacks are permitted.  Occasionally
 something slips past the moderators that others view
 as a personal attack, and that usually wastes some
 cycles when it does occur.  But rarely is there much
 disruption from discussion of technical matters, even
 when it's wrong/aggressive/discouraging.  Even the
 very best programmers make many mistakes, and they
 get to *be* the very best by being open to finding
 those mistakes and learning from them.
 [...]


Yup.  I learned much of what I know about C++ from participating in 
Boost, and I will tell you something...Boost contributors can be the 
most unforgiving software critics you ever met.  Criticisms can be 
brutal, scathing, and downright heartless, but they are always about the 
technical merits of libraries being proposed.  At the end of the day, 
most libraries survive a crucible of fire, and only the best survive. 
The attitude of the reviewers, however, is not one of mere jockeying for 
position, but rather, the pride in the construction of a quality 
library, and the recognition that Boost has a reputation for quality 
that cannot be compromised by soft criticism.

The experts (and Boost can undeniably be said to have many, many experts 
among its members) sometimes disagree on the best way to proceed, and 
have vigorous debates that pull this way and that (far more extreme than 
the technical debates I've seen here), and yet there is a mutual respect 
that keeps the arguments technical.  I've never seen a flame war break 
out on the Boost newsgroups/mailing lists, and it is completely 
unmoderated (I mean, there are people designated as "moderators", but as 
far as I know, posts to the list/group are not individually moderated). 
  I think the Boost community deserves a lot of respect for being able 
to maintain that kind of atmosphere.

I remember Robert Ramey tried to submit his serialization library many, 
many times, which is somewhat unusual because most libraries get a 
thumbs up or a thumbs down, and many authors abandon a library that gets 
a thumbs down.  However, on each iteration it got better and better. 
Understand that Robert had already spent considerable time and effort 
creating what he thought was a Boost-quality submission on his first try 
(which is a high bar to meet, believe you me).  Although the community 
kept saying: "Not this time", they also said: "Please keep working on 
it."  To get an idea of how many times he revised it, take a look here: 
http://www.boost.org/libs/serialization/doc/index.html.  And note that 
it is currently a Boost library.

Nobody thought that Robert Ramey was an idiot for submitting a library 
10x.  Nobody thought he was incompetent because there were so many 
criticisms of his library.  Everyone recognized that he had worked very, 
very hard on it, and that his work was of good quality.  The problem was 
simply that it could be better.  As far as I know, Robert never took 
criticism of his library personally; and even though he was disappointed 
every time it was rejected, he understood and agreed with the reasons, 
and went back to the drawing board to make it work.  The reviewers did 
not put on kid-gloves.  They laid into the library with guns blazing. 
It would have been easy for a lesser author to give up and move on to 
something else.  But in the end, we have a Boost-quality library that 
provides a pretty fundamental service.  That's what I think of as The 
Boost Way, and having seen it in action many, many times, I have come to 
believe that it's a pretty sound methodology.

I think it would be great if D had a set of libraries that were 
certified in this way, by the community of D experts.  One of the 
biggest benefits of Boost, as I said before, is that it taught me a 
*lot* about the language.  I think such a meta-library project would 
provide a similar service for D.  Another thing that Boost does is it 
highlights weaknesses and deficiencies in the language itself.  And then 
there is the fact that many Boost libraries eventually get added to the 
C++ Standard Library.  Most people have confidence in the Boost 
extensions because they have some idea of how this particular sausage is 
made.  But if they really saw how bloody it can be, it would probably 
turn their stomachs.

Is D ready for something like a Boost effort?  I don't know.  Like I 
implied, it takes more than mere technical merit to form a community 
like Boost.  But I think it would be great if we asked ourselves if we 
were ready for something like this, and did what it takes to make it 
happen.  I think this is something of what Walter was suggesting when it 
comes to "certified" libraries in DSource.  "Certified" means "peer 
reviewed *and approved* by experts", and should give the same type of 
quality guarantee that "Boost Library" does.  Just something to think 
about...

Dave
Apr 14 2007
parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
David B. Held wrote:

 James Dennett wrote:

 [...]
 If we take the rules of one moderated forum with which
 I am familiar, there are no limits on how forceful
 criticisms of designs or implementations can be -- but
 no personal attacks are permitted.  Occasionally
 something slips past the moderators that others view
 as a personal attack, and that usually wastes some
 cycles when it does occur.  But rarely is there much
 disruption from discussion of technical matters, even
 when it's wrong/aggressive/discouraging.  Even the
 very best programmers make many mistakes, and they
 get to *be* the very best by being open to finding
 those mistakes and learning from them.
 [...]


 
 Yup.  I learned much of what I know about C++ from participating in 
 Boost, and I will tell you something...Boost contributors can be the 
 most unforgiving software critics you ever met.  Criticisms can be 
 brutal, scathing, and downright heartless, but they are always about the 
 technical merits of libraries being proposed.


Same here.  Boost and the C++ usenet groups (c.l.c++.m and c.s.c++) have 
been a significant factor in shaping the way I present myself online.


 Is D ready for something like a Boost effort?  I don't know.  Like I 
 implied, it takes more than mere technical merit to form a community 
 like Boost.  But I think it would be great if we asked ourselves if we 
 were ready for something like this, and did what it takes to make it 
 happen.  I think this is something of what Walter was suggesting when it 
 comes to "certified" libraries in DSource.  "Certified" means "peer 
 reviewed *and approved* by experts", and should give the same type of 
 quality guarantee that "Boost Library" does.  Just something to think 
 about...


For what it's worth, this is what the Ares project was originally 
intended to be.  But in hindsight, I think it was probably a bit 
premature, and the goal of the project changed over time as a result. 
Tango is a bit more focused in what we aim to achieve however, and I 
think the vetting of new packages would probably be better done in an 
independent project.  The proposed dsource rating system may indeed be 
the best place for this, particularly if there were a structured way to 
evaluate or critique code.


Sean
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
James Dennett wrote:

 Here I've seen people say "Why shouldn't A be attacked,
 when A already attacked library B?".  The answer is:
 A is a person, B is software.  Software doesn't need
 people to be civil to it.  People do.  


Erin Brockovich: "NOT PERSONAL! That is my WORK, my SWEAT, and MY TIME 
AWAY FROM MY KIDS! IF THAT IS NOT PERSONAL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS!"

If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then it's 
not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B personally. 
   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.

--bb
Apr 14 2007
next sibling parent James Dennett <jdennett acm.org> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 James Dennett wrote:

 Here I've seen people say "Why shouldn't A be attacked,
 when A already attacked library B?".  The answer is:
 A is a person, B is software.  Software doesn't need
 people to be civil to it.  People do.  


 
 Erin Brockovich: "NOT PERSONAL! That is my WORK, my SWEAT, and MY TIME
 AWAY FROM MY KIDS! IF THAT IS NOT PERSONAL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS!"
 
 If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then it's
 not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B personally.
   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.


And yet there are places where many people gather,
in person or virtually, and have heated discussions,
without this confusion arising -- so at least it is
known to be something that can be overcome (and in
my opinion *must* be overcome in striving for the
best solutions).

-- James
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then it's 
 not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B personally. 
   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.


It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
that personal attacks are no longer condoned.
Apr 14 2007
next sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:
 

 If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
 it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
 personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.


 
 It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
 that personal attacks are no longer condoned.


I agree.

PS, interesting to note that up to recently, we used to be pretty proud 
in this NG of not having had any major personal attacks or wars.

Ah, well, there also was a time when the xhost command was unneeded on 
the Internet.

The famous 80/20 rule doesn't apply here. It's more like 98/2. And 
that's really depressing, considering the waste, extra work, and 
gratuituous obstacles we all have to face, just for the sake of a small 
fraction.
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
 it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
 personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.


 
 It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
 that personal attacks are no longer condoned.


Indeed.  I think we shouldn't hesitate to collectively jump in and shout 
"TAKE IT OFF LIST" when flame wars, personal attacks, or any other crap 
starts up.

--bb
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling parent reply Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
 it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
 personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.


 
 It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
 that personal attacks are no longer condoned.


Or even tolerated, but I guess that couldn't be controlled w/o a moderated
group.

BTW - Anyone ever run into a case where a moderator canned something just
because of their personal 
opinions (on the technical subject matter)?
Apr 14 2007
parent "David B. Held" <dheld codelogicconsulting.com> writes:
Dave wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
 it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
 personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.


 It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
 that personal attacks are no longer condoned.


 
 Or even tolerated, but I guess that couldn't be controlled w/o a 
 moderated group.
 
 BTW - Anyone ever run into a case where a moderator canned something 
 just because of their personal opinions (on the technical subject matter)?


I've run into issues that aren't necessarily due to "personal opinion", 
per se; but let's just say that moderation is no panacea (which is why I 
  don't tend to favor it all that much).  One problem with moderation is 
that it tends to have an Old Boy Network effect.

Dave
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+spam com.gmail> writes:
What?? That previous discussion was bad enough that it drove Andrei 
away? That's unfortunate :/ .  I hope it's only temporary.


James Dennett wrote:

 Sean Kelly wrote:

 David B. Held wrote:

 Perhaps there is a small element of personality cult involved, and I
 think Andrei is popular partly because he is a personable and
 entertaining guy at times.  He has strong views on many topics and
 defends those views vigorously.


 To everyone but us, it seems.  I'll admit I'm more than a bit
 disappointed that Andrei gave up on public discussions of D.


 
 There's a distinction that seems key for constructive
 discussion, that does not seem important to some here:
 the difference between attacking/defending our technical
 creations, and attacking/defending the people involved.
 


Indeed. And we are software engineers*, we should know better than the 
average person how to not only to detect the difference, but to 
*abstract* one thing from another. (this was actually one of the points 
covered in that Google presentation I mentioned recently) It seems thats 
not the case, as emotionality still takes over rationality for many 
people, even "smart" people.

* (developers, coders, hackers, whatever)

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
Apr 15 2007
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> writes:
Manfred Nowak wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote
 
 

picks up the intellectual intercourse with us that was so sorely
missed before Andrei's arrival.


 
 I do not believe that intellectual intercourses itself are wanted from 
 the "us" you are speaking for.
 
 Its the stardom of Andrei that is appreciated and Walters acceptance of 
 Andrei which brings Andrei in the same position which once belonged to 
 Matthew.
 
 Walter once said, that he appreciates Andrei's academic rigor. But if 
 anybody was lacking academic rigor there were plenty of people who 
 could  put that in.


Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language design 
experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent is nice. 
Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And yes, many 
here have at least some of these attributes.
Apr 14 2007
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:

 Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language design 
 experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent is nice. 
 Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And yes, many 
 here have at least some of these attributes.


True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in August. 
I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.
Apr 14 2007
next sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language 
 design experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent is 
 nice. Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And yes, 
 many here have at least some of these attributes.


 
 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in August. 
 I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


Very true.  I'll definitely be there, one way or another.


Sean
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling parent reply Carlos Santander <csantander619 gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright escribió:

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language 
 design experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent is 
 nice. Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And yes, 
 many here have at least some of these attributes.


 
 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in August. 
 I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict with 
school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
Apr 14 2007
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Carlos Santander wrote:

 Walter Bright escribió:

 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in 
 August. I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


 
 First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict 
 with school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.


End of August. Brad Roberts is organizing it.
Apr 14 2007
parent reply Carlos Santander <csantander619 gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright escribió:

 Carlos Santander wrote:

 Walter Bright escribió:

 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in 
 August. I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


 First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict 
 with school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.


 
 End of August. Brad Roberts is organizing it.


That's going to be a problem, I guess. Anyway, long time to go, yet, so let's 
see how things pan out.

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
Apr 15 2007
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Carlos Santander wrote:

 Walter Bright escribió:

 Carlos Santander wrote:

 Walter Bright escribió:

 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in 
 August. I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


 First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict 
 with school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.


 End of August. Brad Roberts is organizing it.


 
 That's going to be a problem, I guess. Anyway, long time to go, yet, so 
 let's see how things pan out.


I don't think there's any time that's good for everyone.  I have some 
academic commitments that don't end until mid-late august, for example.


Sean
Apr 15 2007
parent Carlos Santander <csantander619 gmail.com> writes:
Sean Kelly escribió:

 Carlos Santander wrote:

 Walter Bright escribió:

 Carlos Santander wrote:

 Walter Bright escribió:

 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in 
 August. I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


 First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict 
 with school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.


 End of August. Brad Roberts is organizing it.


 That's going to be a problem, I guess. Anyway, long time to go, yet, 
 so let's see how things pan out.


 
 I don't think there's any time that's good for everyone.  I have some 
 academic commitments that don't end until mid-late august, for example.
 
 
 Sean


Right. At the end, a date has to be picked and those can go, go.

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
Apr 15 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Dan <murpsoft hotmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:


 Georg Wrede wrote:

 Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language design 
 experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent is nice. 
 Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And yes, many 
 here have at least some of these attributes.


 
 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in August. 
 I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


Wow... a conference.  Too bad I'll be in Japan, and don't have enough money to
throw at a plane ticket for something I merely would enjoy.
Apr 14 2007
next sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> writes:
Dan wrote:

 Wow... a conference.  Too bad I'll be in Japan, and don't have enough
 money to throw at a plane ticket for something I merely would enjoy.


<John Wayne voice>
Pilgrim, it's not about enjoying. Attending this conference will 
_define_ your future.
</>
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling parent reply Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:
Dan wrote:

 Walter Bright Wrote:
 

 Georg Wrede wrote:

 Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language design 
 experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent is nice. 
 Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And yes, many 
 here have at least some of these attributes.


 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in August. 
 I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


 
 Wow... a conference.  Too bad I'll be in Japan, and don't have enough money to
throw at a plane ticket for something I merely would enjoy.


I'm in Tokyo.  We could have our own little D party for two here during 
the conference.  :-)

--bb
Apr 14 2007
parent Mike Parker <aldacron71 yahoo.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 Dan wrote:

 Walter Bright Wrote:


 Georg Wrede wrote:

 Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language 
 design experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent 
 is nice. Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And 
 yes, many here have at least some of these attributes.


 True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
 people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in 
 August. I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.


 Wow... a conference.  Too bad I'll be in Japan, and don't have enough 
 money to throw at a plane ticket for something I merely would enjoy.


 
 I'm in Tokyo.  We could have our own little D party for two here during 
 the conference.  :-)
 
 --bb


Hop over to Seoul and we'll make it for 3 :)
Apr 14 2007
prev sibling parent Dejan Lekic <dejan.lekic gmail.com> writes:
Mr. Wrede,
I will just add that is it absolutely impossible to satisfy everybody,
especially with design of some piece of software. People have different taste,
and different level of tolerance, and it also happens that at some point in
tome that levels goes down for some reasons. This is part of being human. :)
Software engineers are quite known to be very "touchy" when someone criticises
their work - and quite often they take it offensive, disrespectfull, etc. They
usually tend to say "i have spent years on this, how could (s)he say such and
such, how disrespectful, ..." - without any intention to do some kind of
analyze of their own work when someone points out to some problems.

From my experience, it is the best to simply stop discussion when it becomes
"hot" - exactly what Andrei did.
Apr 26 2007