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digitalmars.D - There's a problem in the D economic system

reply Basile B. <b2.temp gmx.com> writes:
This is a bold, very bold post.

I think there's a problem in the economic system of the D lang 
foundation.
And because of this problem I'll stop contributing to the 
compiler and the standard library.

Basically what has opened my eyes is this situation: like often I 
have money problems. Since six months I have fixed something like 
50 dmd bugs. So a natural reflex was to contact the D foundation, 
to ask for a little "bounty".

The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do 
that because now we are a legal entity and also this would make 
other contributors jealous".
Ok so I propose a serious project... I even reserve **three 
weeks** for it... No replies nothing.

So you've lost me. If someone in needs cant even get 50 bucks 
from the foundation, in retribution for 50 bug fixes, there's a 
serious problem.

Goodbye.

Basile B.
Jul 23
next sibling parent bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 at 21:22:38 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 This is a bold, very bold post.

 I think there's a problem in the economic system of the D lang 
 foundation.
 And because of this problem I'll stop contributing to the 
 compiler and the standard library.

 Basically what has opened my eyes is this situation: like often 
 I have money problems. Since six months I have fixed something 
 like 50 dmd bugs. So a natural reflex was to contact the D 
 foundation, to ask for a little "bounty".

 The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do 
 that because now we are a legal entity and also this would make 
 other contributors jealous".
 Ok so I propose a serious project... I even reserve **three 
 weeks** for it... No replies nothing.

 So you've lost me. If someone in needs cant even get 50 bucks 
 from the foundation, in retribution for 50 bug fixes, there's a 
 serious problem.

 Goodbye.

 Basile B.
Well, honestly I agree with the foundation on this one. It's great that you've done all that work BUT you can't expect something in return for voluntary job, regardless of how much work you did. If you didn't want to do it for free you should probably have consulted with them beforehand to have a paid agreement of some sort. Yeah it sucks not to be paid for a lot of work you did BUT D is built on voluntary work which means you shouldn't expect anything at all in return for your work.
Jul 23
prev sibling next sibling parent Exil <Exil gmall.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 at 21:22:38 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 This is a bold, very bold post.

 I think there's a problem in the economic system of the D lang 
 foundation.
 And because of this problem I'll stop contributing to the 
 compiler and the standard library.

 Basically what has opened my eyes is this situation: like often 
 I have money problems. Since six months I have fixed something 
 like 50 dmd bugs. So a natural reflex was to contact the D 
 foundation, to ask for a little "bounty".

 The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do 
 that because now we are a legal entity and also this would make 
 other contributors jealous".
 Ok so I propose a serious project... I even reserve **three 
 weeks** for it... No replies nothing.

 So you've lost me. If someone in needs cant even get 50 bucks 
 from the foundation, in retribution for 50 bug fixes, there's a 
 serious problem.

 Goodbye.

 Basile B.
Sorry, but I don't see why you expect compensation for your work. There's nothing to suggest that you would be compensated for it. If money is recurring problem for you, why are you spending so much of your time contributing to D, for free?
Jul 23
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 at 21:22:38 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do 
 that because now we are a legal entity and also this would make 
 other contributors jealous".
Like it or not, the D Language Foundation is a legal entity that must abide by the rules. They can't just be sending money out to anyone who asks for it via email. Payments made have to either be for something that was made public beforehand or through contracts. Otherwise, there are going to be legal issues. I talked with a company a few weeks back that wants to offer bounties for several Bugzilla issues. I'm currently awaiting news that they have approval for it and know what their budget is. When I get the word I'll be setting up a bounty system on Flipcause. The company will seed it, applying money to the issues they care about. Anyone will be able to donate to those issues or request to set up a bounty on other issues. The Foundation will then be able to pay out bounties to anyone who fixes those issues. But it simply can't happen by asking for money via email, no matter how much anyone would like to help you. As an alternative, you could always set up a PayPal account to accept donations, or a Patreon account to fund your bug fixing. I'm sure there are people here who would be willing to help out. Unfortunately, I can't estimate when the bounty system will be ready because it depends on the company. However, if anyone is willing to apply a bounty to an issue right now, then they can let me know and I can launch it sooner. I just need a specific Bugzilla issue and a dollar amount to get it started.
Jul 23
next sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 03:44:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
[..]
 Unfortunately, I can't estimate when the bounty system will be 
 ready because it depends on the company. However, if anyone is 
 willing to apply a bounty to an issue right now, then they can 
 let me know and I can launch it sooner. I just need a specific 
 Bugzilla issue and a dollar amount to get it started.
Apart from the legal issues that were mentioned above and make sense, of course, why wasn't a proper bounty system implemented years ago? Are you telling people that the years since the founding of the D Foundation have been wasted in this respect? And now you say that you "cannot estimate when the bounty system will be ready because it depends on the company" only to inform people in the next sentence that you could launch it sooner, because all that is needed is an issue and a dollar amount. Was the community informed about this? If not why wasn't the community informed earlier? The thing is that Basil is right when he says that there is something wrong with the system. You can go on about it being a voluntary effort all you want, but the fact of the matter is that if the Foundation had done its job properly, this would never have happened. Basil could have just picked a bounty. So don't deflect from the real issue the OP raised by talking about his approach / expectations etc. Your answer shows that the D Foundation does have a problem here. And then this gem: "I just went through my email history to confirm it. Sebastian contacted BountySource last year and they refunded all of the bounties that were in the system at that time to the respective donors. I would have expected the listed issues to have been deleted as well. However, the account is still open and a couple of bounties have been posted since then, so it obviously still works." Oh, man. Does anybody in the Foundation know what everybody else is doing? Is the D Foundation just a bureaucratic facade and in reality it's the amateurish "chaos as usual"? It'd be a pity if you lost Basil as a contributor, but this situation could have been avoided by better planning. If I were you, I'd try to make him change his mind, but instead you chose to be all official about it and give him a lecture about the law and voluntary efforts. This flies in the face of your usual mantra of D being a community effort and a "meritocracy". Your handling of this issue doesn't exactly encourage people to contribute, because they see what they get at the end of the day, a kick up the a**e. You know, a bit of common sense can get you a long way.
Jul 24
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 08:47:26 UTC, Chris wrote:

 Apart from the legal issues that were mentioned above and make 
 sense, of course, why wasn't a proper bounty system implemented 
 years ago? Are you telling people that the years since the
 founding of the D Foundation have been wasted in this respect?
Someone set up the bounty source account years ago. And apparently no one was taking advantage of it.
 And now you say that you "cannot estimate when the bounty 
 system will be ready because it depends on the company" only to 
 inform people in the next sentence that you could launch it 
 sooner, because all that is needed is an issue and a dollar 
 amount. Was the community informed about this? If not why 
 wasn't the community informed earlier?
There is a company that wanted to pay out bounties and approached me for ideas how to go about it. I figured out how to do it with Flipcause and let them know. Now I'm waiting to hear what their budget is so we can pull the trigger. I was planning to make a blog post about it as soon as we got it set up. I only mention it here because it's on topic. If someone wants to apply a bounty to an issue sooner, then I can get it going sooner. Just let me know.
 The thing is that Basil is right when he says that there is 
 something wrong with the system. You can go on about it being a 
 voluntary effort all you want, but the fact of the matter is 
 that if the Foundation had done its job properly, this would 
 never have happened. Basil could have just picked a bounty. So 
 don't deflect from the real issue the OP raised by talking 
 about his approach / expectations etc. Your answer shows that 
 the D Foundation does have a problem here. And then this gem:

 "I just went through my email history to confirm it. Sebastian 
 contacted BountySource last year and they refunded all of the 
 bounties that were in the system at that time to the respective 
 donors. I would have expected the listed issues to have been 
 deleted as well.

 However, the account is still open and a couple of bounties 
 have been posted since then, so it obviously still works."

 Oh, man. Does anybody in the Foundation know what everybody 
 else is doing? Is the D Foundation just a bureaucratic facade 
 and in reality it's the amateurish "chaos as usual"?
Dude. Chill. Sebastian deactivated the BountySource stuff last year before we launched our OpenCollective page. I was CC'ed on the email chain. My memory isn't perfect and the fact that the bounties are sill listed there was both surprising and confusing. I had to go back through my inbox to verify that, yes, bountysource did send an email saying they had refunded the money to the donors.
 It'd be a pity if you lost Basil as a contributor, but this 
 situation could have been avoided by better planning. If I were 
 you, I'd try to make him change his mind, but instead you chose 
 to be all official about it and give him a lecture about the 
 law and voluntary efforts. This flies in the face of your usual 
 mantra of D being a community effort and a "meritocracy". Your 
 handling of this issue doesn't exactly encourage people to 
 contribute, because they see what they get at the end of the 
 day, a kick up the a**e. You know, a bit of common sense can 
 get you a long way.
I'm not sure what you're accusing us of here. Not having the foresight to provide bounties for fixing issues? The BountySource page was there for years and *no one was fixing the issues*. So when we shut it down, it really didn't seem like a priority to do the same thing again. No one "lectured" Basile. He was given valid reasons why the Foundation can't issue payments for past contributions. He was told we're planning to set up a new bounty system. That was almost three weeks ago. Now he's decided to criticize the Foundation about it publicly. I responded so that everyone understands why he couldn't be paid. I don't see how anyone gave him a "kick up the a**e".
Jul 24
next sibling parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 09:20:43 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 08:47:26 UTC, Chris wrote:
 It'd be a pity if you lost Basil as a contributor, but this 
 situation could have been avoided by better planning. If I 
 were you, I'd try to make him change his mind, but instead you 
 chose to be all official about it and give him a lecture about 
 the law and voluntary efforts. This flies in the face of your 
 usual mantra of D being a community effort and a 
 "meritocracy". Your handling of this issue doesn't exactly 
 encourage people to contribute, because they see what they get 
 at the end of the day, a kick up the a**e. You know, a bit of 
 common sense can get you a long way.
I'm not sure what you're accusing us of here. Not having the foresight to provide bounties for fixing issues? The BountySource page was there for years and *no one was fixing the issues*. So when we shut it down, it really didn't seem like a priority to do the same thing again.
Exactly, not having the foresight of installing a payment system (of any sort), if paying money for bug fixes / issues is apparently such a complicated matter. And then there was a bounty system floating around somewhere, but you didn't exactly know or remember.
 No one "lectured" Basile. He was given valid reasons why the 
 Foundation can't issue payments for past contributions. He was 
 told we're planning to set up a new bounty system. That was 
 almost three weeks ago. Now he's decided to criticize the 
 Foundation about it publicly. I responded so that everyone 
 understands why he couldn't be paid. I don't see how anyone 
 gave him a "kick up the a**e".
My point was this: a) he was right that there is a problem with the "economic system", given that you failed to install a payment system, and b) given that he's a long-time contributor you could have approached the issue in a more sensitive manner. That's just common sense or EI / EL [1]. But maybe the DLF doesn't really care? I wonder. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 09:20:43 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 And now you say that you "cannot estimate when the bounty 
 system will be ready because it depends on the company" only 
 to inform people in the next sentence that you could launch it 
 sooner, because all that is needed is an issue and a dollar 
 amount. Was the community informed about this? If not why 
 wasn't the community informed earlier?
There is a company that wanted to pay out bounties and approached me for ideas how to go about it. I figured out how to do it with Flipcause and let them know. Now I'm waiting to hear what their budget is so we can pull the trigger. I was planning to make a blog post about it as soon as we got it set up. I only mention it here because it's on topic. If someone wants to apply a bounty to an issue sooner, then I can get it going sooner. Just let me know.
The question remains, if one issue and a dollar amount suffices to set up a bounty system with Flipcause, why did you decide to wait instead of going public immediately to tell the general user community to contribute issues and dollars in order to get things going asap, why wait until the company comes back to you, if apparently it doesn't depend on the company? This issue shows quite nicely that there is a double standard in the world of D. Whenever there are complaints by ordinary users they are fed the line "We're all in this together, you have to make an effort too, you know." But then there are loads of things that the members of the general community / users are not informed of, although they do affect them and their work, and long-time volunteers are treated with disrespect. Doesn't make sense. One cannot help but notice that there's a small circle of people at the top, maybe with some affiliates in the industry, who do their own thing and then there is the rest, i.e. what is called "the community". D has basically become a political party. Joakim (another great contributor who has left the community) once asked me what had changed my mind about D so drastically, and - apart from the numerous technical issues - it's the fact that with the advent of the D Foundation D started to become a political party. Posts by the D leadership often read like press releases of political parties. "Mistakes were made", "we are planning to...", blah blah blah, but nothing ever happens. Chances are that people might accept it, if the leadership told them "We have our own agenda, we are catering to a select group of users, so take it or leave it", which is perfectly legit. But don't tell people that they can make a difference while in reality they can't. The good thing is that, unlike politics, technology and engineering do not forgive this kind of behavior.
Jul 24
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:49:30 UTC, Chris wrote:


 The question remains, if one issue and a dollar amount suffices 
 to set up a bounty system with Flipcause, why did you decide to 
 wait instead of going public immediately to tell the general 
 user community to contribute issues and dollars in order to get 
 things going asap, why wait until the company comes back to 
 you, if apparently it doesn't depend on the company?
Because the company has a list of issues. So I had the choice of making the announcement with no issues seeded and ready to go, or making it with a number of issues seeded and ready to go. I opted for the latter.
Jul 24
parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:59:19 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:49:30 UTC, Chris wrote:


 The question remains, if one issue and a dollar amount 
 suffices to set up a bounty system with Flipcause, why did you 
 decide to wait instead of going public immediately to tell the 
 general user community to contribute issues and dollars in 
 order to get things going asap, why wait until the company 
 comes back to you, if apparently it doesn't depend on the 
 company?
Because the company has a list of issues. So I had the choice of making the announcement with no issues seeded and ready to go, or making it with a number of issues seeded and ready to go. I opted for the latter.
Er, what about posting a request for bounties here on the forum and as soon as you get the first one you go live with Flipcause? Maybe you would have gotten loads of issues or maybe not in which case you would still have the company's issues as a fallback. That's my take.
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:49:30 UTC, Chris wrote:
 [snip]
It's not just "mistakes were made." Mike Parker is saying, "mistakes were made, but we are working on fixing them." I think many people would find it discouraging if you fault them for that.
Jul 24
parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:06:05 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:49:30 UTC, Chris wrote:
 [snip]
It's not just "mistakes were made." Mike Parker is saying, "mistakes were made, but we are working on fixing them." I think many people would find it discouraging if you fault them for that.
std.v2? March 28: https://forum.dlang.org/post/q7j3s0$15n7$1 digitalmars.com
Jul 24
parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:15:10 UTC, Chris wrote:
 [snip]

 std.v2? March 28:

 https://forum.dlang.org/post/q7j3s0$15n7$1 digitalmars.com
It seemed like he was merely floating the idea of an std.v2. It's not like it was a blog post announcing that work would start on it or actively sought suggestions for a design spec. Regardless, the thread is about a specific issue with how people get paid to contribute to D. The person who is involved with the payments has said on one specific issue, he recognizes some mistakes, and is working to fix improve the situation. And your response is, "yeah, but that's what you always say, they said we would get a new standard library on March 28 and that's four months and I've been counting!" I mean, sometimes you have to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are working in the interest of the community the best they can. They have time constraints, other stuff to work on, family obligations, and any number of other things going on.
Jul 24
parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:34:45 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:15:10 UTC, Chris wrote:
 [snip]

 std.v2? March 28:

 https://forum.dlang.org/post/q7j3s0$15n7$1 digitalmars.com
It seemed like he was merely floating the idea of an std.v2. It's not like it was a blog post announcing that work would start on it or actively sought suggestions for a design spec.
This specific post about std.v2 is frequently quoted and people say that it gives them hope. I fear, based on past experience, that it's yet another new year's resolution that will not materialize or will take ages to do so. It seems to me that D is trying to emulate Rust and Go, because apparently D is mainly used for very specific purposes in the industry, the same areas Go and Rust are used in. D is becoming a "specific purpose" language as opposed to the "general purpose" language it's being advertised as. This would at least explain some decisions made in the past. There is of course the danger that Rust and Go will "win" and that D will have lost its appeal as a general purpose language.
 Regardless, the thread is about a specific issue with how 
 people get paid to contribute to D. The person who is involved 
 with the payments has said on one specific issue, he recognizes 
 some mistakes, and is working to fix improve the situation. And 
 your response is, "yeah, but that's what you always say, they 
 said we would get a new standard library on March 28 and that's 
 four months and I've been counting!" I mean, sometimes you have 
 to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are working 
 in the interest of the community the best they can. They have 
 time constraints, other stuff to work on, family obligations, 
 and any number of other things going on.
I know that Mike is under a lot of pressure (and I believe they dump a lot of stuff on him). But the way the whole payment issue has been handled (as we learned in this thread) is just bad. Nobody can deny that. And it's not the first time that the DLF has screwed up. Is getting the basics right asking too much?
Jul 27
prev sibling next sibling parent reply IGotD- <nise nise.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 03:44:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 at 21:22:38 UTC, Basile B. wrote:

 The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do 
 that because now we are a legal entity and also this would 
 make other contributors jealous".
Like it or not, the D Language Foundation is a legal entity that must abide by the rules. They can't just be sending money out to anyone who asks for it via email. Payments made have to either be for something that was made public beforehand or through contracts. Otherwise, there are going to be legal issues. I talked with a company a few weeks back that wants to offer bounties for several Bugzilla issues. I'm currently awaiting news that they have approval for it and know what their budget is. When I get the word I'll be setting up a bounty system on Flipcause. The company will seed it, applying money to the issues they care about. Anyone will be able to donate to those issues or request to set up a bounty on other issues. The Foundation will then be able to pay out bounties to anyone who fixes those issues. But it simply can't happen by asking for money via email, no matter how much anyone would like to help you. As an alternative, you could always set up a PayPal account to accept donations, or a Patreon account to fund your bug fixing. I'm sure there are people here who would be willing to help out. Unfortunately, I can't estimate when the bounty system will be ready because it depends on the company. However, if anyone is willing to apply a bounty to an issue right now, then they can let me know and I can launch it sooner. I just need a specific Bugzilla issue and a dollar amount to get it started.
Yes, paying bounty to various people around the world is an administrative nightmare that would cost even more by itself. I would go another direction. If the foundation has the money, why not hire a person or two to do development and fixes. Priority could be based on top contributes wishes. Just having a few people is more manageable when it comes to byrocracy. Hiring students is more difficult but cheaper as usually it must be on a project where they can obtain university credits.
Jul 24
next sibling parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 24/07/2019 8:58 PM, IGotD- wrote:
 I would go another direction. If the foundation has the money, why not 
 hire a person or two to do development and fixes. Priority could be 
 based on top contributes wishes. Just having a few people is more 
 manageable when it comes to byrocracy.
That is very expensive and as I understand it is out of scope of DLF.
 Hiring students is more difficult but cheaper as usually it must be on a 
 project where they can obtain university credits.
It is also a Trojan Horse in introducing D into the University. It is a brilliant long term strategy.
Jul 24
parent RazvanN <razvan.nitu1305 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 09:09:23 UTC, rikki cattermole 
wrote:
 On 24/07/2019 8:58 PM, IGotD- wrote:
 I would go another direction. If the foundation has the money, 
 why not hire a person or two to do development and fixes. 
 Priority could be based on top contributes wishes. Just having 
 a few people is more manageable when it comes to byrocracy.
That is very expensive and as I understand it is out of scope of DLF.
 Hiring students is more difficult but cheaper as usually it 
 must be on a project where they can obtain university credits.
It is also a Trojan Horse in introducing D into the University. It is a brilliant long term strategy.
We are trying here at University Politehnica of Bucharest to introduce D to a programming course; we have also held a D summer school with support from the university and now we are trying to create bachelor/dissertation projects for students on D related topics. We hope that this will raise awareness but of course, these sort of things take time.
Jul 25
prev sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 08:58:56 UTC, IGotD- wrote:

 I would go another direction. If the foundation has the money, 
 why not hire a person or two to do development and fixes. 
 Priority could be based on top contributes wishes. Just having 
 a few people is more manageable when it comes to byrocracy.

 Hiring students is more difficult but cheaper as usually it 
 must be on a project where they can obtain university credits.
We don't have the money to pay people a fair wage for all the work that needs doing. That's why we started the Human Resource fund[1][2]. We hope to use that to pay people to get some of the big ticket items completed. But to do that, we need the grow the pot quite a bit bigger. We're thankful to WekaIO for seeding it. The upcoming SAOC 2019 [3] is another means to get stuff done. Symmetry is planning to donate more money for the event this year than last. Hopefully, the new bounty system will prove more effective than the last. [1] https://www.flipcause.com/secure/cause_pdetails/NTUxOTc= [2] https://dlang.org/blog/2019/06/23/dconf-t-shirts-and-the-human-resource-fund/ [3] https://dlang.org/blog/symmetry-autumn-of-code/
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

 Like it or not, the D Language Foundation is a legal entity that must 
 abide by the rules. They can't just be sending money out to anyone who 
 asks for it via email. Payments made have to either be for something that 
 was made public beforehand or through contracts. Otherwise, there are 
 going to be legal issues.
that's exactly why those "legal entities" are completely useless. so, there is D Foundation, and it cannot even use its money the ways it wants for D without asking approval of Big Brother. meh. if this doesn't define "useless", i don't know what will do.
Jul 24
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 09:23:04 UTC, ketmar wrote:
 that's exactly why those "legal entities" are completely 
 useless. so, there is D Foundation, and it cannot even use its 
 money the ways it wants for D without asking approval of Big 
 Brother. meh. if this doesn't define "useless", i don't know 
 what will do.
Hardly. No one has to ask permission. But money can't just be thrown around willy-nilly without raising the appearance of fraud. If anyone has the time and is willing to work on contract for less-than-market pay, I'm sure something than be arranged. And if anyone wants to raise money for a specific issue or project, that can be arranged to as long as we announce it publicly before anyone undertakes it.
Jul 24
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

 Hardly. No one has to ask permission. But money can't just be thrown 
 around willy-nilly without raising the appearance of fraud.
that is called "asking a permission". if there is anybody to whom somebody else has to explain how and why his money spent, that is called "asking a permission to spend money".
Jul 24
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/24/2019 2:33 AM, ketmar wrote:
 that is called "asking a permission". if there is anybody to whom somebody
else 
 has to explain how and why his money spent, that is called "asking a
permission 
 to spend money".
The Foundation uses a CPA (Certified Public Accountant) for advice and for handling the accounting. We follow the CPA's advice to ensure we are following the law and doing things by the book.
Jul 24
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 On 7/24/2019 2:33 AM, ketmar wrote:
 that is called "asking a permission". if there is anybody to whom 
 somebody else has to explain how and why his money spent, that is called 
 "asking a permission to spend money".
The Foundation uses a CPA (Certified Public Accountant) for advice and for handling the accounting. We follow the CPA's advice to ensure we are following the law and doing things by the book.
and i am not trying to say that you're doing something wrong, or vile, or something like that. i am only trying to say that is a legal entity cannot even use its own money without Big Brother approval, then there is little sense in being "legal" (whatever that means) at all.
Jul 24
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:06:01 UTC, ketmar wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:


 and i am not trying to say that you're doing something wrong, 
 or vile, or something like that. i am only trying to say that 
 is a legal entity cannot even use its own money without Big 
 Brother approval, then there is little sense in being "legal" 
 (whatever that means) at all.
It means maintaining the status of a 501(c)(3) non-profit public charity and avoiding any penalties or jail time for the person handling the money. In the modern world, attempting to shuffle around large amounts of cash outside of a legal entiry like a non-profit or a corporation is just a recipe for trouble. In my own case, as a permanent resident in Korea I can do almost anything a Korean can do, but not when it comes to international finances. I can't attach may Korean bank account to my PayPal account and I'm severely limited in how much money can be sent to me in a single transaction and annually from a single source unless I set up a business of some sort. Some people in some countries don't have certain transfer services available to them or (like me) are limited in how they can use them. It would be hell trying to raise money from and pay money to people around the world without the D Foundation.
Jul 24
next sibling parent ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

(sighs) is there a real need to say "we need Big Brother approval to use 
our own money" with such many words?
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:18:07 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 It means maintaining the status of a 501(c)(3) non-profit 
 public charity and avoiding any penalties or jail time for the 
 person handling the money.

 In the modern world, attempting to shuffle around large amounts 
 of cash outside of a legal entiry like a non-profit or a 
 corporation is just a recipe for trouble. In my own case, as a 
 permanent resident in Korea I can do almost anything a Korean 
 can do, but not when it comes to international finances. I 
 can't attach may Korean bank account to my PayPal account and 
 I'm severely limited in how much money can be sent to me in a 
 single transaction and annually from a single source unless I 
 set up a business of some sort. Some people in some countries 
 don't have certain transfer services available to them or (like 
 me) are limited in how they can use them.

 It would be hell trying to raise money from and pay money to 
 people around the world without the D Foundation.
And knowing all this, it never occurred to anyone to set up a sound and transparent payment system? It wasn't until a company approached you that you figured out that it might be a good idea?
Jul 24
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:34:57 UTC, Chris wrote:

 And knowing all this, it never occurred to anyone to set up a 
 sound and transparent payment system? It wasn't until a company 
 approached you that you figured out that it might be a good 
 idea?
I don't know what you're going on about. The D Foundation has been paying people through multiple methods for a while now, using whatever transfer system charges the smallest amount of fees in the recipient's country. We don't need a bounty system to pay people. The bounty system is just to track how much money is associated with a specific issue. Again, no one was taking advantage of the old system. Click on that bounty source link earlier in the thread and see how old many of those issues are. When fundraising options first fell on my plate, I didn't consider a new bounty system a priority because the old one never met its potential and there was never a clamour from the community for a new one. But if a company is willing to throw money at bugzilla issues, of course we're going to facilitate it. And rather than limit it to just that company, we're setting up a new system to let everyone participate. If you think I screwed up by not starting a bounty system sooner, that's fine. But at least get your criticism on target.
Jul 24
parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:49:24 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:34:57 UTC, Chris wrote:

 And knowing all this, it never occurred to anyone to set up a 
 sound and transparent payment system? It wasn't until a 
 company approached you that you figured out that it might be a 
 good idea?
I don't know what you're going on about. The D Foundation has been paying people through multiple methods for a while now, using whatever transfer system charges the smallest amount of fees in the recipient's country. We don't need a bounty system to pay people. The bounty system is just to track how much money is associated with a specific issue. Again, no one was taking advantage of the old system. Click on that bounty source link earlier in the thread and see how old many of those issues are. When fundraising options first fell on my plate, I didn't consider a new bounty system a priority because the old one never met its potential and there was never a clamour from the community for a new one. But if a company is willing to throw money at bugzilla issues, of course we're going to facilitate it. And rather than limit it to just that company, we're setting up a new system to let everyone participate. If you think I screwed up by not starting a bounty system sooner, that's fine. But at least get your criticism on target.
First, I don't think you "screwed up" personally. It's a structural issue within the DLF. Someone sets up a bounty system that is not used, because people don't really know about it. I couldn't find a prominent link to it on dlang.org. Is there one? If yes, my bad that I didn't spot it. But then again, only because a thing is badly implemented that doesn't mean it's a bad idea as such. And apparently the DLF didn't care much either. Second, I didn't talk about a bounty system specifically but about a standardized transparent system that handles all transactions, so you can transfer money for bug fixes etc. with a mouse click and your a**e is covered at the same time. Third, I think it's not easy for you, because I believe that a lot of stuff is just dumped on you by the DLF.
Jul 24
parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 24/07/2019 11:05 PM, Chris wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:49:24 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:34:57 UTC, Chris wrote:

 And knowing all this, it never occurred to anyone to set up a sound 
 and transparent payment system? It wasn't until a company approached 
 you that you figured out that it might be a good idea?
I don't know what you're going on about. The D Foundation has been paying people through multiple methods for a while now, using whatever transfer system charges the smallest amount of fees in the recipient's country. We don't need a bounty system to pay people. The bounty system is just to track how much money is associated with a specific issue. Again, no one was taking advantage of the old system. Click on that bounty source link earlier in the thread and see how old many of those issues are. When fundraising options first fell on my plate, I didn't consider a new bounty system a priority because the old one never met its potential and there was never a clamour from the community for a new one. But if a company is willing to throw money at bugzilla issues, of course we're going to facilitate it. And rather than limit it to just that company, we're setting up a new system to let everyone participate. If you think I screwed up by not starting a bounty system sooner, that's fine. But at least get your criticism on target.
First, I don't think you "screwed up" personally. It's a structural issue within the DLF. Someone sets up a bounty system that is not used, because people don't really know about it.
It was well known at the time.
 I couldn't find a prominent 
 link to it on dlang.org. Is there one? If yes, my bad that I didn't spot 
 it.
You won't. It never graduated the initial advertisement stage because nobody was putting money into it (in amounts that mattered). There is a lot more money flowing around now (partly because of Symmetry) then there was when bountysource was last tried.
Jul 24
parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:31:33 UTC, rikki cattermole 
wrote:

 
 First, I don't think you "screwed up" personally. It's a 
 structural issue within the DLF. Someone sets up a bounty 
 system that is not used, because people don't really know 
 about it.
It was well known at the time.
 I couldn't find a prominent link to it on dlang.org. Is there 
 one? If yes, my bad that I didn't spot it.
You won't. It never graduated the initial advertisement stage because nobody was putting money into it (in amounts that mattered).
So what happened? Why wasn't there a link on the homepage that said "Set & Get Bounties", and why wasn't it brought to the public's attention regularly? It's not rocket science, it's marketing basics.
 There is a lot more money flowing around now (partly because of 
 Symmetry) then there was when bountysource was last tried.
So let's use it!
Jul 24
next sibling parent reply Laeeth Isharc <laeeth kaleidic.io> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:36:40 UTC, Chris wrote:

 So what happened? Why wasn't there a link on the homepage that 
 said "Set & Get Bounties", and why wasn't it brought to the 
 public's attention regularly? It's not rocket science, it's 
 marketing basics.
I imagine because sometimes people are more interested in complaining and telling others what they ought to do than finding constructive ways to move the world in the direction in which they think it should go. If you see something missing it's not that difficult to fix it yourself. dlang.org is on github, after all. Human nature is a funny thing.
Jul 24
next sibling parent Exil <Exil gmall.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:44:56 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:36:40 UTC, Chris wrote:

 So what happened? Why wasn't there a link on the homepage that 
 said "Set & Get Bounties", and why wasn't it brought to the 
 public's attention regularly? It's not rocket science, it's 
 marketing basics.
I imagine because sometimes people are more interested in complaining and telling others what they ought to do than finding constructive ways to move the world in the direction in which they think it should go. If you see something missing it's not that difficult to fix it yourself. dlang.org is on github, after all. Human nature is a funny thing.
It's really on the person that created that funding page. Not sure why you are trying to direct it a someone else for stating the obvious. I didn't even know that page existed til now. Creating a way to donate and not advertising it is just bad management. I can say it is bad management, this isn't "complaining" this is valid criticism of how the donation page was marketed. Clearly there is something wrong when no one really even knew it existed. Stop trying to put things on people just because something is open source. This is something clearly someone at the D foundation should have done. I don't know how you can even try to argue otherwise.
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:44:56 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:36:40 UTC, Chris wrote:

 So what happened? Why wasn't there a link on the homepage that 
 said "Set & Get Bounties", and why wasn't it brought to the 
 public's attention regularly? It's not rocket science, it's 
 marketing basics.
I imagine because sometimes people are more interested in complaining and telling others what they ought to do than finding constructive ways to move the world in the direction in which they think it should go. If you see something missing it's not that difficult to fix it yourself. dlang.org is on github, after all.
Er, yeah, sure, it's the people who never knew it even existed and complain that they weren't told that are to blame, not those who were in the know and didn't advertise it. Ha ha ha! But Exil has basically said all there is to say.[1]
 Human nature is a funny thing.
It is funny, indeed! When I look at your posts on this forum and your professional background it is obvious that you've been trained to give this sort of motivational talk, rambling on about the universe and advancing things. And yet, you always stick with the status quo and the powers that be, in fact you always advocate for standstill, albeit in the guise of spiritual advancement. Funny that. I wonder what you gain by this, I can only guess, but I do know that people who talk about the cosmos and the universe all the time have very worldly interests. I've been around the block a few times and your voodoo psychology won't work on me. And it sounds like a broken record you turn on by reflex, as is clear from your answer above that has backfired (see [1]). Do you ever stop for a second to think about what people who complain are actually saying or do you just copy and paste your voodoo psychology? [1] https://forum.dlang.org/post/sqxhmoqsklhjrxvhnkdc forum.dlang.org
Jul 24
next sibling parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 13:21:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
 [snip]

 It is funny, indeed! When I look at your posts on this forum 
 and your professional background it is obvious that you've been 
 trained to give this sort of motivational talk, rambling on 
 about the universe and advancing things. And yet, you always 
 stick with the status quo and the powers that be, in fact you 
 always advocate for standstill, albeit in the guise of 
 spiritual advancement. Funny that. I wonder what you gain by 
 this, I can only guess, but I do know that people who talk 
 about the cosmos and the universe all the time have very 
 worldly interests. I've been around the block a few times and 
 your voodoo psychology won't work on me. And it sounds like a 
 broken record you turn on by reflex, as is clear from your 
 answer above that has backfired (see [1]). Do you ever stop for 
 a second to think about what people who complain are actually 
 saying or do you just copy and paste your voodoo psychology?
Ad hominem.
Jul 24
prev sibling next sibling parent reply drug <drug2004 bk.ru> writes:
24.07.2019 16:21, Chris пишет:
 It is funny, indeed! When I look at your posts on this forum and your 
 professional background it is obvious that you've been trained to give 
When I look at your posts I see a person who was an active D user and had his opinion what should be done by D community. The community did not do things you had proposed and obviously you were disappointed and now you attack D community members using this forum and reddit. At least a person with nickname like yours. You are not objective in fact. P.S. english isn't my native language so sorry if I was rude or impolite.
Jul 24
parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 14:44:07 UTC, drug wrote:
 24.07.2019 16:21, Chris пишет:
 It is funny, indeed! When I look at your posts on this forum 
 and your professional background it is obvious that you've 
 been trained to give
When I look at your posts I see a person who was an active D user and had his opinion what should be done by D community. The community did not do things you had proposed and obviously you were disappointed and now you attack D community members using this forum and reddit. At least a person with nickname like yours. You are not objective in fact.
I'm not on reddit and never have been. Things concerning D I only post here. So this is a different "Chris". Yes, the D leadership has made a lot of bad decisions in my opinion, basic things that, when done right, could have attracted new users and improved the lives of veteran users, but instead they got entangled in a mixture of abstract CS stuff and pet projects. And on top of that they grew increasingly hostile to criticism, as I said, the whole thing has turned into a political party with special interest groups. All this talk about "community" is just hot air and only serves to shut critics up. As regards objectivity, maybe I've become more objective since I stepped back a little and had a sober look at the whole D thing. I'd say I wasn't objective when I first picked it up. It's not that I'm angry that I couldn't have it my way, I'm not a child, it's just that things are going nowhere, they don't even get the basics right as has become clear in this thread yet again. I've come to the conclusion that the DLF doesn't really care. They have their own thing going on up there, whatever that is. A lot of decisions wouldn't make sense, if they cared about the common user.
 P.S. english isn't my native language so sorry if I was rude or 
 impolite.
No worries. I'm not so easily offended, especially not in debates.
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply NaN <divide by.zero> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 13:21:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:44:56 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:36:40 UTC, Chris wrote:

 Human nature is a funny thing.
It is funny, indeed! When I look at your posts on this forum and your professional background it is obvious that you've been trained to give this sort of motivational talk, rambling on about the universe and advancing things. And yet, you always stick with the status quo and the powers that be, in fact you always advocate for standstill, albeit in the guise of spiritual advancement.
He does come across a bit mystical but what he says neither advocating the status quo nor is it anything particularly profound. Its plain common sense. If you want something to happen, start yourself and try to pull people with you. Its one of the oldest adages... "Lead by example". Whining and criticising other people because they arn't doing what you think they should be doing only works when you're actually paying them. And even then its not a great way to motivate people because if all you do is moan and criticise people stop listing. Doesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong, the delivery method kills any chance you have of being heard.
Jul 25
parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Thursday, 25 July 2019 at 09:02:22 UTC, NaN wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 13:21:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 He does come across a bit mystical but what he says neither 
 advocating the status quo nor is it anything particularly 
 profound. Its plain common sense. If you want something to 
 happen, start yourself and try to pull people with you. Its one 
 of the oldest adages... "Lead by example". Whining and 
 criticising other people because they arn't doing what you 
 think they should be doing only works when you're actually 
 paying them. And even then its not a great way to motivate 
 people because if all you do is moan and criticise people stop 
 listing. Doesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong, the 
 delivery method kills any chance you have of being heard.
See, you're using the same lines "stop whining", "do it yourself". Great advice, I've given this advice to people too, with the difference that I only give this advice when I know that they actually _can_ change things. In D all this talk about "community effort" and "we're all in the same boat" (no, we're not) is just a smokescreen. It only serves to a) give the "followers" the impression that they are part of something and b) to shut critics up. You've just admitted yourself that it "[d]oesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong". So it's not about the issue at hand, it's about suppressing criticism. At least you're honest about it. Mind you, if it is more important _how_ something is said and _who_ says it then _what_ is being said, then you're entering the realm of ideology. It's certainly no longer engineering.
Jul 25
parent reply NaN <divide by.zero> writes:
On Thursday, 25 July 2019 at 09:37:38 UTC, Chris wrote:
 criticising other people because they arn't doing what you 
 think they should be doing only works when you're actually 
 paying them. And even then its not a great way to motivate 
 people because if all you do is moan and criticise people stop 
 listing. Doesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong, the 
 delivery method kills any chance you have of being heard.
See, you're using the same lines "stop whining", "do it yourself".
I haven't told you what to do just pointed out that whining and criticising wont motivate anyone to listen to you never mind get them to do what you want.
 In D all this talk about "community effort" and "we're all in 
 the same boat" (no, we're not) is just a smokescreen. It only 
 serves to a) give the "followers" the impression that they are 
 part of something and
I've never seen anyone say we're all in the same boat. Quite clearly we're not. There's a small group of people who work on D, really invest their time in making it better, and there's a large group of people who just use D, I'm in that later group. While I might occasionally gripe about something I have no expectation that people in the first group owe me anything, they don't have to listen to me or care what I say, it's their time they are putting in. Im just grateful that they do what they do because in spite of its issues I still prefer D to any of the 7 or 8 other languages I've used over the last 25 years.
 b) to shut critics up.
Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are trying to silence you, as evidenced by the fact you speak up anytime one of these gripey threads pops up. The fact that you characterise it as such is interesting though.
 You've just admitted yourself that it "[d]oesn't matter if what 
 you say is right or wrong". So it's not about the issue at 
 hand, it's about suppressing criticism. At least you're honest 
 about it. Mind you, if it is more important _how_ something is 
 said and _who_ says it then _what_ is being said, then you're 
 entering the realm of ideology. It's certainly no longer 
 engineering.
Both are important. If you want people to listen you need to be respectful in stating your case and also listen and really consider their side too. Then if you want to actually influence them you have a convincing argument. You've fallen at the first hurdle and the only person who can fix that is you.
Jul 25
parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Thursday, 25 July 2019 at 16:08:53 UTC, NaN wrote:
[snip]
 You've fallen at the first hurdle and the only person who can 
 fix that is you.
Sigh, you didn't really get my point. Anyway, this is how D works: “My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place. And if you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.” ― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
Jul 27
prev sibling parent rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 24/07/2019 11:36 PM, Chris wrote:
 There is a lot more money flowing around now (partly because of 
 Symmetry) then there was when bountysource was last tried.
So let's use it!
By the sounds of things, that is what Mike is trying to get setup... Stuff like this doesn't happen over night and takes effort to make possible long term.
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply Exil <Exil gmall.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:06:01 UTC, ketmar wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:

 On 7/24/2019 2:33 AM, ketmar wrote:
 that is called "asking a permission". if there is anybody to 
 whom somebody else has to explain how and why his money 
 spent, that is called "asking a permission to spend money".
The Foundation uses a CPA (Certified Public Accountant) for advice and for handling the accounting. We follow the CPA's advice to ensure we are following the law and doing things by the book.
and i am not trying to say that you're doing something wrong, or vile, or something like that. i am only trying to say that is a legal entity cannot even use its own money without Big Brother approval, then there is little sense in being "legal" (whatever that means) at all.
So you are suggesting they commit fraud and become criminals? You don't have laws in your country? Being "legal" means following the law. I haven't heard this "big brother" conspiracy popsicles in a long time.
Jul 24
parent reply SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 12:03:27 UTC, Exil wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 10:06:01 UTC, ketmar wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:

 On 7/24/2019 2:33 AM, ketmar wrote:
 that is called "asking a permission". if there is anybody to 
 whom somebody else has to explain how and why his money 
 spent, that is called "asking a permission to spend money".
The Foundation uses a CPA (Certified Public Accountant) for advice and for handling the accounting. We follow the CPA's advice to ensure we are following the law and doing things by the book.
and i am not trying to say that you're doing something wrong, or vile, or something like that. i am only trying to say that is a legal entity cannot even use its own money without Big Brother approval, then there is little sense in being "legal" (whatever that means) at all.
So you are suggesting they commit fraud and become criminals? You don't have laws in your country? Being "legal" means following the law. I haven't heard this "big brother" conspiracy popsicles in a long time.
Exactly! Unfortunately he is mixing things up and as already said in this topic, the Foundation can pay anyone but it need to be by the book, for example in this case the OP should generate the receipts, or otherwise how the Foundation could pay him? The foundation can't just send money out there because someone asks. Where I live the non-profit foundations are special because they don't pay taxes, but they need to follow the rules like any other foundation, otherwise they could be used for fraud. Unfortunately mixing programming with legal stuff is derailing this thread. :) Sasha.
Jul 24
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Please keep politics out of this forum.
Jul 25
prev sibling next sibling parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 2:25 PM Basile B. via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 This is a bold, very bold post.

 I think there's a problem in the economic system of the D lang
 foundation.
 And because of this problem I'll stop contributing to the
 compiler and the standard library.

 Basically what has opened my eyes is this situation: like often I
 have money problems. Since six months I have fixed something like
 50 dmd bugs. So a natural reflex was to contact the D foundation,
 to ask for a little "bounty".

 The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do
 that because now we are a legal entity and also this would make
 other contributors jealous".
 Ok so I propose a serious project... I even reserve **three
 weeks** for it... No replies nothing.

 So you've lost me. If someone in needs cant even get 50 bucks
 from the foundation, in retribution for 50 bug fixes, there's a
 serious problem.

 Goodbye.

 Basile B.
I gave you some money, but the thing is, D contribution is not a paid effort. Contributors understand this, and we all have day-jobs. You would need to specifically negotiate a paid contract of employment if you want to earn a salary contributing to the D core (and there would need to be such positions available), or propose some projects or developments that *users* would pay to have. There are lots of possible developments in the D ecosystem that I would pay to have accelerated, if you want to fund yourself this way, you need to be more strategic. Perhaps choose some focus areas and ask for bounties; some people might support you that way if they have some money spare to advance their interests. I would offer a $50 bounty for every non-trivial issue I've logged in bugzilla, maybe more for some if that helped motivate people to address them. For most contributors though, it seems money doesn't affect their motivation; it's mostly time-limited... and appetite for masochism.
Jul 23
prev sibling next sibling parent reply matheus <matheus gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 at 21:22:38 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 ...
Like others already said, unfortunately I think you're blaming the wrong people/entity. This is an open-source project and people contribute on their own will like you did. Anyway I think we should implement bug bounty program where people (Not only D Foundation) could open incentives for solving bugs, and this could help some people like in your case. I'm willing to contribute financially with bug bounty program, I just need to figure how or in what platform we can do this. Matheus.
Jul 23
next sibling parent reply Cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 05:02:14 UTC, matheus wrote:
 On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 at 21:22:38 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 ...
Like others already said, unfortunately I think you're blaming the wrong people/entity. This is an open-source project and people contribute on their own will like you did. Anyway I think we should implement bug bounty program where people (Not only D Foundation) could open incentives for solving bugs, and this could help some people like in your case. I'm willing to contribute financially with bug bounty program, I just need to figure how or in what platform we can do this. Matheus.
It already exist: in the wiki's first page, "contributing" section, bounty -> https://www.bountysource.com/teams/d/issues I'm not sure how active it is but it is present.
Jul 23
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 06:52:10 UTC, Cym13 wrote:


 It already exist: in the wiki's first page, "contributing" 
 section, bounty -> https://www.bountysource.com/teams/d/issues

 I'm not sure how active it is but it is present.
As far as I know, we aren't using that anymore and I wouldn't rely on it.
Jul 24
parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 07:44:08 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
 On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 06:52:10 UTC, Cym13 wrote:


 It already exist: in the wiki's first page, "contributing" 
 section, bounty -> https://www.bountysource.com/teams/d/issues

 I'm not sure how active it is but it is present.
As far as I know, we aren't using that anymore and I wouldn't rely on it.
I just went through my email history to confirm it. Sebastian contacted BountySource last year and they refunded all of the bounties that were in the system at that time to the respective donors. I would have expected the listed issues to have been deleted as well. However, the account is still open and a couple of bounties have been posted since then, so it obviously still works.
Jul 24
prev sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 05:02:14 UTC, matheus wrote:
 Anyway I think we should implement bug bounty program where 
 people (Not only D Foundation) could open incentives for 
 solving bugs, and this could help some people like in your case.

 I'm willing to contribute financially with bug bounty program, 
 I just need to figure how or in what platform we can do this.
Please read what I wrote above. *Anyone* will be able to contribute via the system I'll be setting up through Flipcause. Each issue will have its own campaign. Anyone who wants to throw money at any specific issue will be able to do so as a donation through that issue's campaign. And there will be a "catch-all" campaign for sending money to multiple issues with one transaction. Then the Foundation will be responsible for making the payments to the right people when an issue is resolved.
Jul 24
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
If it makes you feel any better, I work full time on D. The Foundation has
never 
sent me any money, other than expense reports where I provide receipts.

On the other hand, many contributors to D have landed well paying jobs as a 
direct result.
Jul 24
prev sibling next sibling parent Laeeth Isharc <laeeth kaleidic.io> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 July 2019 at 21:22:38 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
 This is a bold, very bold post.

 I think there's a problem in the economic system of the D lang 
 foundation.
 And because of this problem I'll stop contributing to the 
 compiler and the standard library.

 Basically what has opened my eyes is this situation: like often 
 I have money problems. Since six months I have fixed something 
 like 50 dmd bugs. So a natural reflex was to contact the D 
 foundation, to ask for a little "bounty".

 The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do 
 that because now we are a legal entity and also this would make 
 other contributors jealous".
 Ok so I propose a serious project... I even reserve **three 
 weeks** for it... No replies nothing.

 So you've lost me. If someone in needs cant even get 50 bucks 
 from the foundation, in retribution for 50 bug fixes, there's a 
 serious problem.

 Goodbye.

 Basile B.
I emailed you directly. Laeeth.
Jul 24
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/23/19 5:22 PM, Basile B. wrote:
 This is a bold, very bold post.
 
 I think there's a problem in the economic system of the D lang foundation.
 And because of this problem I'll stop contributing to the compiler and 
 the standard library.
 
 Basically what has opened my eyes is this situation: like often I have 
 money problems. Since six months I have fixed something like 50 dmd 
 bugs. So a natural reflex was to contact the D foundation, to ask for a 
 little "bounty".
 
 The reply from the foundation was something like : "we cant do that 
 because now we are a legal entity and also this would make other 
 contributors jealous".
 Ok so I propose a serious project... I even reserve **three weeks** for 
 it... No replies nothing.
 
 So you've lost me. If someone in needs cant even get 50 bucks from the 
 foundation, in retribution for 50 bug fixes, there's a serious problem.
 
 Goodbye.
 
 Basile B.
We replied to the initial request for an unspecified amount of money with this: ===== Hi Basile, thanks for reaching out! And of course thank you very much for your prolific and continuing contributions to the D language. I spoke to the other Foundation officers and our accountant. Sadly we currently cannot issue payment for past contributions, for the following reasons: * Accounting-wise we'd need to set up a contract first, and pay for services rendered. It's unusual and suspicious to do so retroactively. * If we pay a sort of a prize/bonus we'd need to make that public first with terms, conditions, etc. Paying prizes randomly may flag us for IRS because that's the obvious way people pay themselves and friends out of donated money. * Assuming we get over the accounting hurdles, we need to make sure issuing payment to you is also fair to other contributors. Thanks again for letting us know that payment would be motivating. This may be a good idea for Mike to create a bounty/prize system that we can offer to our contributors. ==== Subsequent to that request you sent a proposal to work on https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19124, again for an unspecified amount of money. After consulting with the other Foundation officers, I wrote this: ==== Thanks for your suggestion, we'll keep it in mind. Setting up a contract for a bug fix/enhancement is high overhead, but we are considering a bug bounty option open for all. ==== We wanted to avoid creating the precedent that contributors ask for money for working on issues of their choosing. The fact that the amount requested was unspecified is important, too - accounting for $50 vs. $500 vs $5000 goes differently. Three hours later I got an email from you entitled "What's wrong with you andrei?" with the following content: ==== Honestly what's wrong with you since a year or two ? You're not the same guy anymore, you're not far to be hated by everyone in the D world. Atila is supposed to replace you, I've read, but he's as you in the latestest months, i.e absent. What is the fucking damn problem ? ==== Indeed I chose to not reply to that.
Jul 24
parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Thursday, 25 July 2019 at 00:21:49 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:
 We replied to the initial request for an unspecified amount of 
 money
 with this:

 =====
 Hi Basile, thanks for reaching out! And of course thank you 
 very much for your prolific and continuing contributions to the 
 D language.

 I spoke to the other Foundation officers and our accountant. 
 Sadly we currently cannot issue payment for past contributions, 
 for the following reasons:

 * Accounting-wise we'd need to set up a contract first, and pay 
 for services rendered. It's unusual and suspicious to do so 
 retroactively.
 * If we pay a sort of a prize/bonus we'd need to make that 
 public first with terms, conditions, etc. Paying prizes 
 randomly may flag us for IRS because that's the obvious way 
 people pay themselves and friends out of donated money.
 * Assuming we get over the accounting hurdles, we need to make 
 sure issuing payment to you is also fair to other contributors.

 Thanks again for letting us know that payment would be 
 motivating. This may be a good idea for Mike to create a 
 bounty/prize system that we can offer to our contributors.
 ====
When did this correspondence take place? Here's what Mike wrote earlier: "I talked with a company a few weeks back that wants to offer bounties for several Bugzilla issues. I'm currently awaiting news that they have approval for it and know what their budget is. When I get the word I'll be setting up a bounty system on Flipcause. The company will seed it, applying money to the issues they care about. Anyone will be able to donate to those issues or request to set up a bounty on other issues. The Foundation will then be able to pay out bounties to anyone who fixes those issues." So whose idea was the bounty system? Was it triggered by the company that approached Mike or was it triggered by Basiles email as your reply suggests? Did Basile approach you before the "few weeks back" that Mike mentions in his post above? It's mind-boggling.
 Subsequent to that request you sent a proposal to work on 
 https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19124, again for an 
 unspecified amount of money. After consulting with the other 
 Foundation officers, I wrote this:

 ====
 Thanks for your suggestion, we'll keep it in mind. Setting up a 
 contract for a bug fix/enhancement is high overhead, but we are 
 considering a bug bounty option open for all.
 ====
Same questions as above and also consider this (Mike again): "Unfortunately, I can't estimate when the bounty system will be ready because it depends on the company. However, if anyone is willing to apply a bounty to an issue right now, then they can let me know and I can launch it sooner. I just need a specific Bugzilla issue and a dollar amount to get it started." The system is apparently in place but not (yet) public. Since when exactly has it been in place?
 We wanted to avoid creating the precedent that contributors ask 
 for
 money for working on issues of their choosing.
But this is basically how a bounty system works. Wouldn't this ensure that at least the bugs people choose get fixed? How would you handle this instead? A: See who's first to finish? If various people are working on the same issue at the same time, independently of each other, you're wasting resources. B: Assign issues to people? Won't work. I'd say apart from having a bounty system, you might consider setting up a DLF specific system where you offer issues with a price tag (based on the degree of difficulty and / or priority). An easy and transparent system. You just have to avoid duplicates in the Flipcause and DLF system.
 The fact that the amount
 requested was unspecified is important, too - accounting for 
 $50 vs.
 $500 vs $5000 goes differently.
D'accord, you need some sort of security there.
 Three hours later I got an email from you entitled "What's 
 wrong with you andrei?" with the following content:

 ====
 Honestly what's wrong with you since a year or two ? You're not 
 the same guy anymore, you're not far to be hated by everyone in 
 the D world.
 Atila is supposed to replace you, I've read, but he's as you in 
 the latestest months, i.e absent.

 What is the fucking damn problem ?
 ====

 Indeed I chose to not reply to that.
No comment.
Jul 25