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digitalmars.D - Then new forum moderation

reply aberba <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
I'm just seeing a ..."Your message has been saved, and will be 
posted after being **approved** by a moderator". This doesn't 
make sense.

1. what criteria decides if my comment deserves approval or not?
2. Is there a full-time moderator available to ensure there no 
bureaucracy/delay?
3. Is it not a much more better approach to delete when its 
reported as inappropriate by the public? (White-listing vs 
Blacklisting,...which one permits a democratic and free speech 
environment?)
Sep 22 2018
next sibling parent reply SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 14:58:58 UTC, aberba wrote:

 I'm just seeing a ..."Your message has been saved, and will be 
 posted after being **approved** by a moderator". This doesn't 
 make sense.
...


This happens only for new topic?

S.G.
Sep 22 2018
parent reply SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 16:45:15 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:

 On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 14:58:58 UTC, aberba wrote:

 I'm just seeing a ..."Your message has been saved, and will be 
 posted after being **approved** by a moderator". This doesn't 
 make sense.
...


 This happens only for new topic?

 S.G.


I'll not create a topic to check this behavior, but this message 
doesn't show up when replying inside a topic.

PS: By the way the CAPTCHA is awful, look what they throw to us:

int v()
{
   return 26 % 3
     ? 13 / 3
     : 42 % 5;
}

I mean

S.G.
Sep 22 2018
next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 16:48:35 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:

 PS: By the way the CAPTCHA is awful, look what they throw to us:


If you have a better idea of a CAPTCHA that would be easy for D 
programmers but hard for spammers, please submit a pull request:

https://github.com/CyberShadow/dcaptcha
Sep 22 2018
parent reply SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 17:13:18 UTC, Vladimir 
Panteleev wrote:

 On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 16:48:35 UTC, SashaGreat 
 wrote:

 PS: By the way the CAPTCHA is awful, look what they throw to 
 us:


 If you have a better idea of a CAPTCHA that would be easy for D 
 programmers but hard for spammers, please submit a pull request:

 https://github.com/CyberShadow/dcaptcha


First I didn't want to sound harsh, and by the way I sent the 
message without complete it.

I did by head. But how a newbie would suppose to do that?

You may say to open the compiler and try it or go with the online 
version, but it isn't too much?

And by the way, after you do once why need to do every time?

S.G.
Sep 22 2018
parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 17:19:41 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:

 I did by head. But how a newbie would suppose to do that?


For that challenge, you only non-obvious thing need to know is 
the syntax for the modulus and ternary operators, which are 
present in many programming languages. You can do tthe 
calculation with a regular desktop calculator.

If that is too much, you can run the code on run.dlang.io. In 
this case, you only need to know how tocall a function and print 
its result.

If that is also too much, you can ask for help in the #d IRC 
channel.

The software suggests the above two options. In my opinion, it is 
a reasonable compromise, but I'm open to suggestions. (Note that 
at least once, a spammer managed to get through the CAPTCHA 
precisely by simply asking on #d, with a good samaritan providing 
the answer without inquiring further.)


 And by the way, after you do once why need to do every time?


It is needed to prevent flooding. However, successfully solving 
the CAPTCHA a number of times across a period of time while 
logged in will whitelist your account.
Sep 22 2018
parent reply bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 18:56:28 UTC, Vladimir 
Panteleev wrote:

 On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 17:19:41 UTC, SashaGreat 
 wrote:

 I did by head. But how a newbie would suppose to do that?


 For that challenge, you only non-obvious thing need to know is 
 the syntax for the modulus and ternary operators, which are 
 present in many programming languages. You can do tthe 
 calculation with a regular desktop calculator.

 If that is too much, you can run the code on run.dlang.io. In 
 this case, you only need to know how tocall a function and 
 print its result.

 If that is also too much, you can ask for help in the #d IRC 
 channel.

 The software suggests the above two options. In my opinion, it 
 is a reasonable compromise, but I'm open to suggestions. (Note 
 that at least once, a spammer managed to get through the 
 CAPTCHA precisely by simply asking on #d, with a good samaritan 
 providing the answer without inquiring further.)


 And by the way, after you do once why need to do every time?


 It is needed to prevent flooding. However, successfully solving 
 the CAPTCHA a number of times across a period of time while 
 logged in will whitelist your account.


But what is there to stop a spammer from doing the same?

I mean it's fairly easy to grab the captcha code and run it 
through a D compiler and then post the result automatically.

It's no rocket science, so it really doesn't do much in 
preventing I think.

Really it can be automated like:

1. Copy the code
2. Go to run.dlang.io
3. Paste the code
4. Compile it
5. Wait for the output
6. Copy the output
7. Paste the output into the input field
8. Submit

It would take anyone familiar with basic http macros less than 10 
minutes to automate that process, even less using a programming 
language if it's mass automation.

The forums for D might just not be popular enough for any "bots" 
to bother I guess?

I would suggest some real captcha software that are used by the 
majority of sites.

And on top of that maybe a flag system.

People being able to flag posts and if a specific post is flagged 
by enough people then it'll be "hidden" until moderation takes 
action by either making it "visible" again due to invalid 
flagging or deleting it because it was a valid flag.

This can help not only against spammers, bots etc. but also when 
there are trolls making troll posts etc.
Sep 22 2018
next sibling parent Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 19:09:24 UTC, bauss wrote:

 But what is there to stop a spammer from doing the same?


Spammers are not going to exert that much effort in order to be 
able to spam 1 website, so that the moderators then change their 
algorithm and block them again.

This is the key. Spammers win by targeting classes of websites 
running the same engine, or using generic bots that detect 
arbitrary forms, or employing humans to do it for them. To defeat 
them, you must pose a challenge specific to your website, so that 
people who are not interested in your website's topic will have 
difficulty solving, but not the other way around.


 I would suggest some real captcha software that are used by the 
 majority of sites.


No, those work MUCH worse than the above.
Sep 22 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 19:09:24 UTC, bauss wrote:

 And on top of that maybe a flag system.


This exists, but is only visible to certain users.
Sep 22 2018
parent reply bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 19:41:56 UTC, Vladimir 
Panteleev wrote:

 On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 19:09:24 UTC, bauss wrote:

 And on top of that maybe a flag system.


 This exists, but is only visible to certain users.


Maybe it should be visible to more users?
Sep 22 2018
parent Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 21:42:11 UTC, bauss wrote:

 Maybe it should be visible to more users?


At present I do not believe this would bring an observable 
benefit.
Sep 22 2018
prev sibling parent SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 19:09:24 UTC, bauss wrote:

 ...
 It's no rocket science, so it really doesn't do much in 
 preventing I think.

 Really it can be automated like:

 1. Copy the code
 2. Go to run.dlang.io
 3. Paste the code
 4. Compile it
 5. Wait for the output
 6. Copy the output
 7. Paste the output into the input field
 8. Submit

...


Or since the snippets are simple and some resembling C, the Bot 
could run itself or even in JavaScript parsing the body of the 
function and taking care of the return, with in the most case are 
int or float:

<script>
   var v = "int v(){ return 26 % 3 ? 13 / 3 : 42 % 5;}"; // 
Original Snippet
   var types = ["int", "float"]; // Type of return
   var s = v.split(" ");
   var t = s[0].toLowerCase();
   s.splice(0,1);

   if(types.indexOf(t)>-1){
   	t = t[0].charAt(0).toUpperCase() + t.slice(1);
   }
   document.writeln(eval("parse"+t+"((function " + s.join(' ') + 
")())" ));
</script>

This an example and will print 4 which is the result expected by 
the Captcha.

https://js.do/code/241565

S.G
Sep 22 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 16:48:35 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:

 PS: By the way the CAPTCHA is awful, look what they throw to us:

 int v()
 {
   return 26 % 3
     ? 13 / 3
     : 42 % 5;
 }

 I mean


Awww, that's cute! Finding a remainder from division by 3 
(three!) is junior school arithmetic. And in this case you don't 
even need to properly calculate it, only guess that it's not 
zero. I don't see a good excuse to fail at it.
Sep 24 2018
next sibling parent reply JN <666total wp.pl> writes:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 at 12:44:09 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 16:48:35 UTC, SashaGreat 
 wrote:

 PS: By the way the CAPTCHA is awful, look what they throw to 
 us:

 int v()
 {
   return 26 % 3
     ? 13 / 3
     : 42 % 5;
 }

 I mean


 Awww, that's cute! Finding a remainder from division by 3 
 (three!) is junior school arithmetic. And in this case you 
 don't even need to properly calculate it, only guess that it's 
 not zero. I don't see a good excuse to fail at it.


Well, it requires you to know what a ternary operator is and how 
it works. Also, how ints are implicitly converted to bool. Also 
would be good to know if 13/3 is 4 or 4.33
Sep 24 2018
parent SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 at 12:56:43 UTC, JN wrote:

 Awww, that's cute! Finding a remainder from division by 3 
 (three!) is junior school arithmetic. And in this case you 
 don't even need to properly calculate it, only guess that it's 
 not zero. I don't see a good excuse to fail at it.


 Well, it requires you to know what a ternary operator is and 
 how it works. Also, how ints are implicitly converted to bool. 
 Also would be good to know if 13/3 is 4 or 4.33


Exactly and thank you JN. I help CS students at my uni and things 
that seems trivial are sometimes hard for newbies.

And like you said, there are 2 things in that snippet besides the 
math: Ternary and a implicit conversion to from int to bool.

Unfortunately skilled people may overlook this because it's 
natural to them.

S.G.
Sep 24 2018
prev sibling parent reply bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 at 12:44:09 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 16:48:35 UTC, SashaGreat 
 wrote:

 PS: By the way the CAPTCHA is awful, look what they throw to 
 us:

 int v()
 {
   return 26 % 3
     ? 13 / 3
     : 42 % 5;
 }

 I mean


 Awww, that's cute! Finding a remainder from division by 3 
 (three!) is junior school arithmetic. And in this case you 
 don't even need to properly calculate it, only guess that it's 
 not zero. I don't see a good excuse to fail at it.


Not for someone who is just introduced to programming and doesn't 
D want to attract newcomers? If so we cannot have a programmer 
specific captcha.

I mean if you want to learn about history, what if history forums 
presented you with something like:

"In which country was the first monarchy?"

You'd never know the answer on top of your head unless yoy,

A: Lives in the country that established the first monarchy
B: You google it (Which is an unnecessary burden, because you 
don't want to be searching stuff just to post on a forum.)
C: You have studied history
D: You're extremely lucky or have gathered the knowledge in one 
way or another, but most people will not know such answeres on 
top of their head.
Sep 24 2018
next sibling parent Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 05:52:57 UTC, bauss wrote:

 Not for someone who is just introduced to programming and 
 doesn't D want to attract newcomers? If so we cannot have a 
 programmer specific captcha.


https://forum.dlang.org/post/vrehthdqtenpnysruqsz forum.dlang.org

Please address the counter-arguments directly instead of just 
reiterating your flawed arguments elsewhere in the thread.
Sep 24 2018
prev sibling parent reply Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 at 12:56:43 UTC, JN wrote:

 Well, it requires you to know what a ternary operator is


It wouldn't be a captcha if the questions were like "what is the 
most popular social network?". Also int doesn't implicitly 
convert to bool.

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 05:52:57 UTC, bauss wrote:

 Not for someone who is just introduced to programming and 
 doesn't D want to attract newcomers? If so we cannot have a 
 programmer specific captcha.


I don't think you can go into programming from absolute zero.


 I mean if you want to learn about history, what if history 
 forums presented you with something like:

 "In which country was the first monarchy?"


Monarchy is prehistoric (watching the Troy movie should be 
enough), and yes, history forums do something like that. Also you 
don't study history out of the blue, you're taught it in school.
Sep 25 2018
next sibling parent bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 07:43:39 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 On Monday, 24 September 2018 at 12:56:43 UTC, JN wrote:

 Well, it requires you to know what a ternary operator is


 It wouldn't be a captcha if the questions were like "what is 
 the most popular social network?". Also int doesn't implicitly 
 convert to bool.

 On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 05:52:57 UTC, bauss wrote:

 Not for someone who is just introduced to programming and 
 doesn't D want to attract newcomers? If so we cannot have a 
 programmer specific captcha.


 I don't think you can go into programming from absolute zero.


 I mean if you want to learn about history, what if history 
 forums presented you with something like:

 "In which country was the first monarchy?"


 Monarchy is prehistoric (watching the Troy movie should be 
 enough), and yes, history forums do something like that. Also 
 you don't study history out of the blue, you're taught it in 
 school.


You can as a student at the university, where you're just 
introduced to programming.

How is monarchy prehistoric? Monarchies still exist today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_monarchies

That is beside my point though, my point was not about history 
and you completely missed it.

Facepalm.
Sep 25 2018
prev sibling parent reply SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 07:43:39 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 I don't think you can go into programming from absolute zero.


So I assume for what you're saying that anybody who comes here 
already knows at least: ternary, promotion, implicit casting.

For example: If a person knows VB/Delphi and now he is trying D 
and have any doubt, he will need to evolve first to understand 
ternary before posting something, because ternary in these 
languages are different.

Awesome and great mentality.

S.G.
Sep 25 2018
parent reply Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 15:11:20 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:

 For example: If a person knows VB/Delphi and now he is trying D 
 and have any doubt, he will need to evolve first to understand 
 ternary before posting something, because ternary in these 
 languages are different.


You underestimate delphi programmers if you think they can't 
learn ternary operator.
Sep 26 2018
parent reply SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 26 September 2018 at 09:09:30 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 15:11:20 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:

 For example: If a person knows VB/Delphi and now he is trying 
 D and have any doubt, he will need to evolve first to 
 understand ternary before posting something, because ternary 
 in these languages are different.


 You underestimate delphi programmers if you think they can't 
 learn ternary operator.


I didn't say they can't learn, and as quoted I said it's 
different in these languages (I mean the symbols involved).

By the way, since D has inline assembler attribute, why not use 
it for captchas too?

Because according to you:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 07:43:39 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 I don't think you can go into programming from absolute zero.


The programmer should at least know Assembly, right?

S.G.
Sep 26 2018
parent bauss <jj_1337 live.dk> writes:
On Wednesday, 26 September 2018 at 14:59:20 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:

 On Wednesday, 26 September 2018 at 09:09:30 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 15:11:20 UTC, SashaGreat 
 wrote:

 For example: If a person knows VB/Delphi and now he is trying 
 D and have any doubt, he will need to evolve first to 
 understand ternary before posting something, because ternary 
 in these languages are different.


 You underestimate delphi programmers if you think they can't 
 learn ternary operator.


 I didn't say they can't learn, and as quoted I said it's 
 different in these languages (I mean the symbols involved).

 By the way, since D has inline assembler attribute, why not use 
 it for captchas too?

 Because according to you:

 On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 07:43:39 UTC, Kagamin wrote:

 I don't think you can go into programming from absolute zero.


 The programmer should at least know Assembly, right?

 S.G.


Couldn't have said it better myself.
Sep 27 2018
prev sibling parent reply Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 16:48:35 UTC, SashaGreat wrote:


 I'll not create a topic to check this behavior, but this 
 message doesn't show up when replying inside a topic.

 PS: By the way the CAPTCHA is awful, look what they throw to us:

 int v()
 {
   return 26 % 3
     ? 13 / 3
     : 42 % 5;
 }

 I mean

 S.G.


The captchas are awful, why would you want to waste brain cycles 
on that if you wanna send a one line response or so. Why not have 
captchas like most other websites that give you a random 
selection of letters/numbers in an image file like "2B4aHg". You 
just need to type them into a text field. A programming / 
D-specific captcha is a bit nahhh. But it tells you something 
about the mentality...
Sep 25 2018
parent SashaGreat <s g.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 at 13:16:14 UTC, Chris wrote:

 The captchas are awful, why would you want to waste brain 
 cycles on that if you wanna send a one line response or so...


If it is for mitigate spam/bot, you can easily by pass it with a 
simple script[1].

I'd prefer a captcha system that is commonly used than some that 
requires a specific knowledge of a language, which may be a 
barrier for newbies.

[1] 
https://forum.dlang.org/post/gpykpzmwrpcowktuevbe forum.dlang.org

S.G.
Sep 25 2018
prev sibling parent Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 at 14:58:58 UTC, aberba wrote:

 I'm just seeing a ..."Your message has been saved, and will be 
 posted after being **approved** by a moderator". This doesn't 
 make sense.


Your post was flagged by the spam filter. It was a false 
positive, which sometimes occurs with very short posts, as was 
yours. It was approved a few minutes after it was submitted.


 1. what criteria decides if my comment deserves approval or not?


Your post is not spam, an attack on other forum members, or 
egregiously inflammatory / off-topic.


 2. Is there a full-time moderator available to ensure there no 
 bureaucracy/delay?


There are several persons who receive moderation notices and can 
act on them.

I generally receive email throughout the day, so you could at 
least count me as a full-time moderator.


 3. Is it not a much more better approach to delete when its 
 reported as inappropriate by the public?


No. We did this until this year. This resulted in:

- Lots of spam (despite the spam filter and CAPTCHA). Web forums 
attract a LOT of spambots (and humans paid to post spam).

- Spam in mailing list users' inboxes, even after a moderator 
deleted it off the forum, since you can't unsend an email.

The new method catches a lot of spam that would otherwise get 
through. You don't see it, but the moderators do.
Sep 22 2018