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digitalmars.D - The D programming language newsgroup should lift its game

reply Justin Johansson <no spam.com> writes:
Lest this forum decays as has Google Groups,

( see "Google Groups is Dead" by John Resig
http://ejohn.org/blog/google-groups-is-dead/ )

my suggestion is that this newsgroup should make steps to lift its game.

Its becoming harder to sign off on a post with "regards" anymore,

egards
Justin Johansson
Apr 01 2010
next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Justin Johansson" <no spam.com> wrote in message 
news:hp2952$2qh7$1 digitalmars.com...

 Lest this forum decays as has Google Groups,

 ( see "Google Groups is Dead" by John Resig
 http://ejohn.org/blog/google-groups-is-dead/ )


Hmm, yea, ever since I first tried spam filtering software (and I've tried a 
number of different ones), I've been convinced that the only worthwhile spam 
filtering system is one that doesn't even bother to try to filter on 
messages that have already been sent (and certainly not one of those 
heuristics systems, those are horrible), but rather makes sure the sender is 
legit before it even lets them send. CAPTCHAs, a real login system, only 
giving out real email addresses to individuals, not sites or organizations, 
etc. I've been following that, without any client-side or server-side 
software spam filter, for years and I get far fewer spam getting through 
than even gmail users do, and *zero* legit messages blocked.
Apr 01 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Justin Johansson wrote:

 Lest this forum decays as has Google Groups,
 
 ( see "Google Groups is Dead" by John Resig
 http://ejohn.org/blog/google-groups-is-dead/ )
 
 my suggestion is that this newsgroup should make steps to lift its game.


But we don't have a spam problem here (crosses fingers).




 Its becoming harder to sign off on a post with "regards" anymore,
 
 egards
 Justin Johansson



??
Apr 01 2010
parent reply Justin Johansson <no spam.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:


 Justin Johansson wrote:

 Lest this forum decays as has Google Groups,
 
 ( see "Google Groups is Dead" by John Resig
 http://ejohn.org/blog/google-groups-is-dead/ )
 
 my suggestion is that this newsgroup should make steps to lift its game.


 
 But we don't have a spam problem here (crosses fingers).


Sorry for the poor message delivery on my part.

My comment was intended to refer to the amount of troll feeding in recent times
and
the disproportionate amount of discussion on seemingly (to me) trivial
discussion
(e.g. tabs and spaces).

But then again what might seem trivial or idle to me may be a treasure trove of
interesting discussion to others.  So maybe I'm wrong to criticise and the
quality
of discussion on this group is bubbling along just fine in the opinion of
others.

What do others (including those usually silent) think? As this newsgroup is an
important
face for D, could or should it strive for better?

Cheers
Justin Johansson

ps. Re xxx and $$$ type spam, yes, the NG has been mostly spared -- crossing
your fingers seems to work for that Walter.
Apr 01 2010
parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Justin Johansson" <no spam.com> wrote in message 
news:hp3l95$2ann$1 digitalmars.com...

 Walter Bright Wrote:


 Justin Johansson wrote:

 Lest this forum decays as has Google Groups,

 ( see "Google Groups is Dead" by John Resig
 http://ejohn.org/blog/google-groups-is-dead/ )

 my suggestion is that this newsgroup should make steps to lift its 
 game.


 But we don't have a spam problem here (crosses fingers).


 Sorry for the poor message delivery on my part.

 My comment was intended to refer to the amount of troll feeding in recent 
 times and
 the disproportionate amount of discussion on seemingly (to me) trivial 
 discussion
 (e.g. tabs and spaces).


Disproportionate amount of tab/space discussion in comparison to troll 
feeding? So, not enough tab/space discussion then? Ok, "Viva la tabs!!" :) 
Or not enough troll feeding?

(I know what you really meant. I just couldn't resist ;) )



 But then again what might seem trivial or idle to me may be a treasure 
 trove of
 interesting discussion to others.  So maybe I'm wrong to criticise and the 
 quality
 of discussion on this group is bubbling along just fine in the opinion of 
 others.

 What do others (including those usually silent) think? As this newsgroup 
 is an important
 face for D, could or should it strive for better?


I find the trivial and offtopic stuff to be among the most interesting. And 
if I come across one I find particularly pointless, it's trivial enough to 
ignore it. Troll feeding can be problematic, we don't want to encourage the 
trolls, but I'm not about to crusade against troll feeding or anything like 
that :)

About the only topic that ever does bug me is meta-debates about what types 
of discussions should or shouldn't be allowed or tolerated. That kind of 
thing has a tenancy to really damage a group (I've seen it happen) far more 
than any bikeshed ever will.
Apr 01 2010
parent reply Justin Johansson <no spam.com> writes:
Nick Sabalausky Wrote:


 My comment was intended to refer to the amount of troll feeding in recent 
 times and
 the disproportionate amount of discussion on seemingly (to me) trivial 
 discussion
 (e.g. tabs and spaces).


 
 Disproportionate amount of tab/space discussion in comparison to troll 
 feeding? So, not enough tab/space discussion then? Ok, "Viva la tabs!!" :) 
 Or not enough troll feeding?
 
 (I know what you really meant. I just couldn't resist ;) )


Ha, ha, that's okay I can take a ribbing :-)


 I find the trivial and offtopic stuff to be among the most interesting. And 
 if I come across one I find particularly pointless, it's trivial enough to 
 ignore it. Troll feeding can be problematic, we don't want to encourage the 
 trolls, but I'm not about to crusade against troll feeding or anything like 
 that :)
 
 About the only topic that ever does bug me is meta-debates about what types 
 of discussions should or shouldn't be allowed or tolerated. That kind of 
 thing has a tenancy to really damage a group (I've seen it happen) far more 
 than any bikeshed ever will.


Fair enough; really just wanted to know what people thought.

Thanks for your comment.
Apr 01 2010
parent reply Kyle Mallory <kyle.mallory utah.edu> writes:
On 4/1/10 10:51 PM, Justin Johansson wrote:

 Nick Sabalausky Wrote:


 About the only topic that ever does bug me is meta-debates about what types
 of discussions should or shouldn't be allowed or tolerated. That kind of
 thing has a tenancy to really damage a group (I've seen it happen) far more
 than any bikeshed ever will.


 Fair enough; really just wanted to know what people thought.

 Thanks for your comment.


As a long-time, very occasional lurker-- I don't see how the article and 
specifically the "Demise" of Google Groups related here.  It seemed the 
primary point of discussion in the article was managing spam and the 
hassle in administering the group.  As Walter pointed out, this isn't an 
issue here, thankfully.

Regarding troll-havens, I think there is little you can do about them, 
an especially when many of the troll candidates (at least here on D) are 
still relevant to someone, and often times to many others. 
Specifically, while space/tabs may be a hot, religious topic, it's still 
something that people are passionate about.  In some cases, the results 
of those discussions may raise legitimate concerns (hypothetically 
speaking).

However, I do have two problems with using the newsgroups.

1) Finding a decent reader (though recently, I've slowly migrated to 
Thunderbird), and the steps necessary to configure it, etc. In the past, 
I've posted very very rarely, if ever, in part because it seemed 
troublesome.  While I'm sure this is in part responsible for the lack of 
spam, and maybe directly related to the quality of the posts and topics 
of the group, it is nonetheless a deterrent for newcomers to the 
language. Asking someone to adopt a new piece of (quite possibly, 
unfamiliar) software to someone who is learning a new, possibly first, 
software language is encouraging them to go play with another language 
instead.

2) The accessibility of information is restricted to the search tools 
within the reader (web or otherwise). One of my biggest complains with 
the D movement has been finding relevant information using the tools 
that the rest of the planet is using (ie, Google).  Google searches 
often return results that are months, if not years out of date.

If I google "D Language" the first, top-most link returned is "Intro - D 
Programming Language - Digital Mars", clicking this link and scanning 
for dates to find the currency of the information, I see '2007' as the 
second item on the page, and the first as the release of the Tango book 
(which was also published in 2007).  Following a dozen other links turns 
up similar dates for information 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, and maybe the 
occasional 2009 link.  At first glance, D appears dead.

But I'm determined, to find out more; "if D is dead, what happened to 
it?" The "last update" timestamp on the pages is current, and I see on 
the downloads pages there are various links to various version (though 
none of them are dated), covering a variety of OS and architectures, 
good sign.  The more I dig, the more I find that suggests D is alive and 
strong... but I have to dig.  Finally, I find under the "Archives" 
(where I expect to find the oldest information), links to thousands of 
messages from hundreds of individuals, all actively talking about 'D'. 
Finally, something that is ALIVE, and more importantly, is kicking, 
screaming, walking, and doing its best to start running.  There is a 
life and an energy, a passion, that is found in these forums!  BUT!!! 
You have to be persistent to find it!

If the D community is content to forever be in the back corner behind 
the other kids during the Winter Solstice Festival at school, that's 
fine. But the chances of getting the recognition that it deserves is 
severely diminished.


Kyle
Apr 02 2010
parent reply Jordi <jordi rovira.cat> writes:
Kyle Mallory wrote:

 On 4/1/10 10:51 PM, Justin Johansson wrote:

 Nick Sabalausky Wrote:




<snip>

 
 Kyle
 


I second all this. I understand D is not a "corporative" project backed 
up by a huge marketing team or anything like that, but better managing 
of its image and communication channels (in usability and appearance) 
would help it a lot.

Speaking clearly:

- The D website at Digital Mars is ugly, and it contains a lot of 
obsolete information (the same for Wiki4D).

- The forums access thorough web is also awful and has some bugs that 
lead to posting in the wrong lists sometimes.

- The information is scattered (several webs, newsgroups, stack 
overflow, ...), and because of the relatively novelty of the project and 
the amount of people coming in and going out, most of the information 
you find is old and unmaintained. This applies to many projects in dsource.

- and... the D logo is awful :)

Having a more professional look, and better information structure would 
really help D a lot. Even if this means "removing" information or 
placing it in a clearly marked "ancient/obsolete/unmaintained" category. 
  Aggregating the content will make it easier for its references to 
scale up in the search engines result list.

Finally about the real subject of this thread (the newsgroups): When all 
this internet thing started one of the best things was freedom and 
anonymity. But now i think it is one of the worst things, and for really 
  focused discussion groups, having real people with real names and a 
brief but real personal and professional profile can help improve the 
quality of the discussion. Also, free "immediate" registration to 
participate in this site is not necessary a good thing. Moderated 
approval of people with "believable" profiles ("verified" would be 
ideal, but not realistic) could help.

One of the best sources of discussion on game development, for example, 
is "www.thechaosengine.com" site. You cannot participate in the private 
part of the site unless you prove you are a game developer. The quality 
of those forums are far ahead of anything else i have seen.

Also keeping an internal "prestige system" like Stack Overflow, or 
Canonical's Launchpad seems a good thing.

I re-read my mail and i am surprised to be writing in favor of a 
relatively closed approach and against free access and anonymity. I must 
have changed a lot during the last years...

j.

...i mean...

Jordi Rovira i Bonet
Lead Graphics Programmer
Blueside Inc
www.kingdomunderfire.com
Apr 02 2010
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Jordi wrote:

 Kyle Mallory wrote:

 On 4/1/10 10:51 PM, Justin Johansson wrote:

 Nick Sabalausky Wrote:




 <snip>

 Kyle


 
 I second all this. I understand D is not a "corporative" project backed 
 up by a huge marketing team or anything like that, but better managing 
 of its image and communication channels (in usability and appearance) 
 would help it a lot.
 


A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software. 
I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not 
this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear. People who weren't online 
in their heyday don't expect to have to use them (for that matter, there 
are those who *were* around and don't expect to have to use them). When 
someone checks out a project for the first time, it's quite common these 
days that one of the first stops is the project's forums. No forums? Ah 
well, too bad. Next project.

These days, you can't expect people to have a newsreader installed by 
default. Nor can they be expected to know how to use one. And as for the 
web interface, compared to the quality of forum software out there it is 
horribly substandard.

Furthermore, a forum can yield some useful activity statistics that you 
just can't get from a newsgroup. That help in gauging the interest in D 



Walter has iterated his gripes with forum software more than once. But 
in my mind, the downsides of web forums are far fewer than those of 
newsgroups, especially when viewed from the eyes of many of today's 
twenty- & thirty-somethings.
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent "Simen kjaeraas" <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> wrote:


 Jordi wrote:

 Kyle Mallory wrote:

 On 4/1/10 10:51 PM, Justin Johansson wrote:

 Nick Sabalausky Wrote:




 <snip>

 Kyle


  I second all this. I understand D is not a "corporative" project  
 backed up by a huge marketing team or anything like that, but better  
 managing of its image and communication channels (in usability and  
 appearance) would help it a lot.


 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software.  
 I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not  
 this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear. People who weren't online  
 in their heyday don't expect to have to use them (for that matter, there  
 are those who *were* around and don't expect to have to use them). When  
 someone checks out a project for the first time, it's quite common these  
 days that one of the first stops is the project's forums. No forums? Ah  
 well, too bad. Next project.

 These days, you can't expect people to have a newsreader installed by  
 default. Nor can they be expected to know how to use one. And as for the  
 web interface, compared to the quality of forum software out there it is  
 horribly substandard.

 Furthermore, a forum can yield some useful activity statistics that you  
 just can't get from a newsgroup. That help in gauging the interest in D  



 Walter has iterated his gripes with forum software more than once. But  
 in my mind, the downsides of web forums are far fewer than those of  
 newsgroups, especially when viewed from the eyes of many of today's  
 twenty- & thirty-somethings.


Also, in this day of steam-powered kajiggeries and electromechanical
doohickeys, there is software available that allows one to keep a
regular forum and newsgroups synced. Never actually tried any of those,
though.

-- 
Simen
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

 Jordi wrote:

 Kyle Mallory wrote:

 On 4/1/10 10:51 PM, Justin Johansson wrote:

 Nick Sabalausky Wrote:




 <snip>

 Kyle


 I second all this. I understand D is not a "corporative" project 
 backed up by a huge marketing team or anything like that, but better 
 managing of its image and communication channels (in usability and 
 appearance) would help it a lot.


 
 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software. 
 I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not 
 this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear.


I have to say, most forums seem incredibly amateurish to me. I'm amazed 
that absolute garbage like phpBB is actually still in use. Is there any 
*good* forum software out there? It doesn't seem like it would be hard 
to beat a newsgroup. But...
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Don wrote:

 Mike Parker wrote:

 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum 
 software. I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like 
 it or not this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear.


 
 I have to say, most forums seem incredibly amateurish to me. I'm amazed 
 that absolute garbage like phpBB is actually still in use. Is there any 
 *good* forum software out there? It doesn't seem like it would be hard 
 to beat a newsgroup. But...


My favorite is SMF [1], which you can see in action at [2] and [3]. I 
ran it on a DAOC guild website I used to manage and loved how simple it 
was to administer. They are now working toward a 2.0 release, but I 
haven't played with any of the RCs yet.

Another I like is vBulletin [4], which I use regularly at [5] and 
elsewhere. Unlike SFML, it's a commercial offering and I've never seen 
the admin side. Personally, though, SMF is my favorite, both as a user 
and an admin.

[1] http://www.simplemachines.org/
[2] http://lwjgl.org/forum/
[3] http://www.javagaming.org/
[4] http://www.vbulletin.com/
[5] http://forums.indiegamer.com/
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:


 
 Another I like is vBulletin [4], which I use regularly at [5] and 
 elsewhere. Unlike SFML, it's a commercial offering and I've never seen


That should read: Unlike SMF...



 the admin side. Personally, though, SMF is my favorite, both as a user 
 and an admin.
 
 [1] http://www.simplemachines.org/
 [2] http://lwjgl.org/forum/
 [3] http://www.javagaming.org/
 [4] http://www.vbulletin.com/
 [5] http://forums.indiegamer.com/
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

 My favorite is SMF [1], which you can see in action at [2] and [3].


Here's a link:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=374244.0

It is typical of web forum software and has the usual problems:

1. no threaded display, it's difficult to see who is replying to what.

2. Lots of irrelevant and annoying pictures, multiple fonts, borders, ads, etc. 
The focus is on glitz rather than content.

3. It seems that less than half of the browser window is actually taken up by 
the meat, and in a painfully small font, too. If you've got a small screen,
like 
on say a portable, it's hopeless.

Yes, I suppose it's all customizable, but nearly all forum software follows
this 
style, and blows for the same reasons.


I know the php web interface to the D newsgroups sucks. I make no apologies for
it.

The only web forum software I actually like is reddit.com and the similar one
at 
ycombinator.com. Unfortunately, it has no interface to newsgroups. Digg and 
slashdot suck with their awful interfaces.
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:hp81er$nk4$1 digitalmars.com...

 http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=374244.0


...

 and in a painfully small font, too. If you've got a small screen, like on 
 say a portable, it's hopeless.


It's the exact same size I use in my NG reader and it's perfectly readable 
to me. Maybe your resolution is too high. If it's changed, other people may 
find it too big, so it's hard to say that it's the page's fault. As far as 
portables, I can't imagine any portable that would use a high enough screen 
resolution for that font size to look too small. Plus, any half-way decent 
browser these days should have an easy zoom function. For me, in FF2 all I 
need to do is Ctrl-ScrollWheel.

About the lack of tree view, that's really a VIM vs Emacs, tabs vs spaces 
kind of an issue. And as far as the other points, like you said, it's all 
customizable anyway. I've used many forums that have all the junk turned 
off. Plus I use AdBlock Plus ( http://adblockplus.org/en/ ) and NoScript, so 
I don't see any ads on that page (If I didn't use those, I would find the 
vast majority of the web literally unusable).
Apr 03 2010
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 It's the exact same size I use in my NG reader and it's perfectly readable 
 to me. Maybe your resolution is too high. If it's changed, other people may 
 find it too big, so it's hard to say that it's the page's fault. As far as 
 portables, I can't imagine any portable that would use a high enough screen 
 resolution for that font size to look too small. Plus, any half-way decent 
 browser these days should have an easy zoom function. For me, in FF2 all I 
 need to do is Ctrl-ScrollWheel.
 
 About the lack of tree view, that's really a VIM vs Emacs, tabs vs spaces 
 kind of an issue.


What about this thread? Without the newsreader, given the 50 or so messages 
here, how would I know that the one on the end specifically replies to that one 
of mine?


 And as far as the other points, like you said, it's all 
 customizable anyway. I've used many forums that have all the junk turned 
 off. Plus I use AdBlock Plus ( http://adblockplus.org/en/ ) and NoScript, so 
 I don't see any ads on that page (If I didn't use those, I would find the 
 vast majority of the web literally unusable).



Yet I don't have to mess with any of that stuff with a newsreader! I don't have 
to configure it, zoom it, install ad blockers, etc. It just works, and since 
little data is transferred, it's fast, too. I also like how it's archived as a 
bunch of text files.
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 01:45:59PM -0700, Walter Bright wrote:

 What about this thread? Without the newsreader, given the 50 or so messages 
 here, how would I know that the one on the end specifically replies to that 
 one of mine?


That's what the quotations are for.

Though, threaded vs linear isn't too much of a forum vs news argument. I
use a linear view into this group just by having my client sort by date;
in this sense, the newsgroup is probably superior, since it provides enough
flexibility to go both ways.

-- 
Adam D. Ruppe
http://arsdnet.net
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:hp89e7$146c$1 digitalmars.com...

 Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 It's the exact same size I use in my NG reader and it's perfectly 
 readable to me. Maybe your resolution is too high. If it's changed, other 
 people may find it too big, so it's hard to say that it's the page's 
 fault. As far as portables, I can't imagine any portable that would use a 
 high enough screen resolution for that font size to look too small. Plus, 
 any half-way decent browser these days should have an easy zoom function. 
 For me, in FF2 all I need to do is Ctrl-ScrollWheel.

 About the lack of tree view, that's really a VIM vs Emacs, tabs vs spaces 
 kind of an issue.


 What about this thread? Without the newsreader, given the 50 or so 
 messages here, how would I know that the one on the end specifically 
 replies to that one of mine?


Like Adam said, quotes. Ie, those things that are already useful on NGs so a 
person don't have to flip back and forth between the message they're reading 
and some separate message that provides appropriate context (unless the 
message being read was posted by a certain Mr. Bright ;) )

Besides, on non-tree systems, sub-discussions are more likely to just get 
moved to a new thread.

Non-tree also makes it a hell of a lot easier to reply to multiple messages 
with one single message. Which also tends to result in fewer total posts, 
far less redundant information, and a far more chronologically-coherent 
discussion (for example, you're far less likely to post a reply to one 
message and then see that it was already addressed in a different branch of 
the thread, which tends to happen a fair amount in tree-views and increases 
confusion.)

I'm not saying I like non-tree better, I'm just saying they both have their 
pros/cons.


 And as far as the other points, like you said, it's all customizable 
 anyway. I've used many forums that have all the junk turned off. Plus I 
 use AdBlock Plus ( http://adblockplus.org/en/ ) and NoScript, so I don't 
 see any ads on that page (If I didn't use those, I would find the vast 
 majority of the web literally unusable).



 Yet I don't have to mess with any of that stuff with a newsreader! I don't 
 have to configure it, zoom it, install ad blockers, etc. It just works, 
 and since little data is transferred, it's fast, too. I also like how it's 
 archived as a bunch of text files.


1. Those aren't issues with web forums, those are issues with specific web 
forum configurations.

2. Not liking a chosen font size used has nothing remotely to do with web 
forum vs NG. The people making NG readers can use whatever font size they 
want to, just like the people making web forums can. Liking or not liking 
the font size used in a NG reader is no less a matter of chance than liking 
or not liking the one used on a web forum.

3. Regarding having to install adblockers and such: As far as I'm concerned, 
that's essential for just simply using the web period, not something that's 
specific to web forums. I mean, what, you haven't seen non-forum websites 
filled with ads? Either you don't mind ads on websites or you do mind. If 
you don't mind, then there's no problem. If you do mind, then you'll already 
be installing an adblocker anyway or otherwise you'll already be forcing 
yourself to put up with annoying ads anyway. So again, not a 
web-forum-related issue.
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

  
 
 Yet I don't have to mess with any of that stuff with a newsreader! I 
 don't have to configure it, zoom it, install ad blockers, etc. It just 
 works, and since little data is transferred, it's fast, too. I also like 
 how it's archived as a bunch of text files.


Conversely, I wouldn't have needed to go out and install a newsreader if 
you had used forum software instead of newsgroups. I stopped using them 
over a decade ago and didn't expect to have to ever subscribe to one 
again. I follow quite a few software projects and development 
communities. Out of them all, this is the only one that has a newsgroup. 
Even so, it was a long time between first finding D and actually 
subscribing. If I hadn't been so enthralled after playing around with 
the language, I wouldn't be here right now.

With web forums, any posts I mark as read on my iPhone when I'm on the 
bus or subway, or on another computer, will still be marked as read when 
I get back home. But if I view the newsgroup's web interface on my 
iPhone, I'll sometimes wind up wasting a bit of time when I next fire up 
the newsreader at home, clicking through messages I've already seen. So 
I don't do that anymore. When I went to the States for three weeks in 
February, I didn't browse the D newsgroups at all, because I knew when I 
got home there'd be a few hundred messages I'd already seen marked as 
unread in my reader. I did keep up with all the forum-based communities 
I follow, though.

Most forum software is highly configurable and offers so much more 
beyond just the forum threads, such as email notification for important 
topics you want to follow, private messages without handing out your 
email address, the ability to post images or youtube videos inline, 
plugins (on the admin side) and more. Every time I open Thunderbird to 
see the D groups, I feel like I'm back in 1995.

Despite all of that, I won't be bothered one way or the other if things 
never change. I'm no stranger to newsgroups and I've settled in to using 
  Thunderbird. But what concerns me is how many people don't come into 
the community because there are no web forums. We have no way to know 
that. But I know it does happen, because I've done it myself with other 
projects.

And, for the record, SMF (and most other open source software) does not 
come with ads. Ads are set up by administrators.
Apr 05 2010
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

 With web forums, any posts I mark as read on my iPhone when I'm on the 
 bus or subway, or on another computer, will still be marked as read when 
 I get back home. But if I view the newsgroup's web interface on my 
 iPhone, I'll sometimes wind up wasting a bit of time when I next fire up 
 the newsreader at home, clicking through messages I've already seen. So 
 I don't do that anymore. When I went to the States for three weeks in 
 February, I didn't browse the D newsgroups at all, because I knew when I 
 got home there'd be a few hundred messages I'd already seen marked as 
 unread in my reader. I did keep up with all the forum-based communities 
 I follow, though.


That's interesting, because none of the web forums I've seen allowed me to mark 
a message as read. It's one of the things I like about news readers.

I don't have an iphone, but with its tiny screen I'm surprised that the simple 
textual web interface wouldn't be preferred for it.

(I don't have an iphone because the display is too damned small for my eyes, I 
cannot read the tiny text.)


 Most forum software is highly configurable and offers so much more 
 beyond just the forum threads, such as email notification for important 
 topics you want to follow, private messages without handing out your 
 email address, the ability to post images or youtube videos inline, 
 plugins (on the admin side) and more. Every time I open Thunderbird to 
 see the D groups, I feel like I'm back in 1995.


Sure, the web interface to the news groups is utterly lacking in glitz, but
it's 
functional. I know you cannot post images or videos, and I think that would be
a 
significant handicap for other topics, but not so much with programming. One 
might suspect it is even an advantage to not have pictures, avatars, etc. :-)


 And, for the record, SMF (and most other open source software) does not 
 come with ads. Ads are set up by administrators.


Ok, I understand.

One thing I hadn't mentioned is the news server is bulletproof and utterly 
trivial to maintain - I essentially do nothing. There aren't even any user 
accounts to deal with. I know this isn't an advantage to the users of it, but
it 
is a large advantage to me.

One of the problems web forums have is spam. Ironically, one of the advantages 
of using an obsolete news system is the spammers leave it mostly alone, again 
making it a lot easier on my time.

I'm sure there are people who won't use D because of it, but using newsgroups 
doesn't seem to have impaired the adoption of php.

Anyhow, thanks for spending the time to post your thoughts on this. Based on 
your comments and others here, I at least have improved the access by combining 
it all into a nice table at http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html, so there 
shouldn't be any trouble finding it now.
Apr 06 2010
parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
  > Anyhow, thanks for spending the time to post your thoughts on this.

 Based on your comments and others here, I at least have improved the 
 access by combining it all into a nice table at 
 http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html, so there shouldn't be any 
 trouble finding it now.
 


Yeah, I think having all of the links collected in one location like 
that is a big step forward. Thanks for listening.
Apr 06 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Ads are actually installed by admin. There're no ads after installation.
Apr 04 2010
prev sibling parent reply "Mathias Laurenz Baumann" <anonym001 supradigital.org> writes:
After a bit of googling, threaded view is possible, just requires a litt=
le  =

work:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=3D255510.0

The guy who did this wrote:

"If you remember, I added that particular feature to my board some time =
 =

ago -- http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=3D212576.=
0 (I  =

even posted a screenshot.)
After the last message in that topic, I modified the Quick Reply feature=
  =

to actually add a Quick Reply box under EVERY message. Which made it muc=
h  =

easier to "build" an actual threaded view.
It worked, really. Very well. I've kept a copy of all the changes I made=
.

Only, I posted a poll, asking my viewers their feelings about the featur=
e,  =

and only two people shared their enthusiasm -- and that's because they'r=
e  =

originally from LiveJournal where threaded view is all over the place.
Everybody else either said they didn't care, or reacted strongly against=
  =

the feature, saying it would make it more complicated to follow a  =

discussion.
While a threaded view is desireable when you're viewing a topic once and=
  =

long after it was created (as a guest, from a Google search, etc.), it i=
s  =

not the best possible way to discuss when the topic is active.
Of course, there's always the possibility of not showing any posts, only=
 a  =

complete list of indented subjects, with a "new" icon next to the messag=
es  =

you haven't read yet, and a single click to get to that particular  =

message. But even if using Ajax to retrieve them, that would still requi=
re  =

a LOT of clicking, and keeping track of all unread messages, instead of =
 =

"last unread message"! Oh my, the agony..."


So, the users used to a forum might not even appreciate a threaded view =
 =

over a flat view. Though, I can't confirm that opinion.


--Marenz


Am 03.04.2010, 20:29 Uhr, schrieb Walter Bright  =

<newshound1 digitalmars.com>:


 Mike Parker wrote:

 My favorite is SMF [1], which you can see in action at [2] and [3].


 Here's a link:

 http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=3D374244.0

 It is typical of web forum software and has the usual problems:

 1. no threaded display, it's difficult to see who is replying to what.=



 2. Lots of irrelevant and annoying pictures, multiple fonts, borders, =


 =


 ads, etc. The focus is on glitz rather than content.

 3. It seems that less than half of the browser window is actually take=


n  =


 up by the meat, and in a painfully small font, too. If you've got a  =



 small screen, like on say a portable, it's hopeless.

 Yes, I suppose it's all customizable, but nearly all forum software  =



 follows this style, and blows for the same reasons.


 I know the php web interface to the D newsgroups sucks. I make no  =



 apologies for it.

 The only web forum software I actually like is reddit.com and the  =



 similar one at ycombinator.com. Unfortunately, it has no interface to =


 =


 newsgroups. Digg and slashdot suck with their awful interfaces.



-- =

Erstellt mit Operas revolution=C3=A4rem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.c=
om/mail/
Apr 05 2010
parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
Mathias Laurenz Baumann wrote:

 


 
 So, the users used to a forum might not even appreciate a threaded view 
 over a flat view. Though, I can't confirm that opinion.
 


That makes sense to me. People who use forum software more than 
newsgroups, if they've used newsgroups at all, are /used/ to it. It's 
what they expect.
Apr 05 2010
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Don wrote:

 I have to say, most forums seem incredibly amateurish to me. I'm amazed 
 that absolute garbage like phpBB is actually still in use. Is there any 
 *good* forum software out there? It doesn't seem like it would be hard 
 to beat a newsgroup. But...


That also continually surprises me, how wretched the supposedly modern forum 
software is compared with newsgroups.
Apr 03 2010
parent "BobR" <brhodes simple.access.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Don wrote:

 I have to say, most forums seem incredibly amateurish to me. I'm
 amazed that absolute garbage like phpBB is actually still in use. Is
 there any *good* forum software out there? It doesn't seem like it
 would be hard to beat a newsgroup. But...


 That also continually surprises me, how wretched the supposedly
 modern forum software is compared with newsgroups.


Real programmers don't make web pages, they create software! The web is a 
kludgy interface at best, doing something with the technology that it was 
not designed to do, and it shows. If there is any real "software" in a 
website, it's the underpinnings. Having to suffer through a web 
"interface" is like going back to green-screen terminals after having had 
used a PC for a decade or more.
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software. 
 I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not 
 this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear. People who weren't online 
 in their heyday don't expect to have to use them (for that matter, there 
 are those who *were* around and don't expect to have to use them). When 
 someone checks out a project for the first time, it's quite common these 
 days that one of the first stops is the project's forums. No forums? Ah 
 well, too bad. Next project.



A counterpoint is that the serious work that goes on with C++ is done with 
mailing lists, which behave pretty much like a private newsgroup. You could 
argue that the people who work on C++ are older fuddy-duddies, with some 
justification, but still, they are very serious and find the format effective.

But you still have a good point.
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling parent reply "Lars T. Kyllingstad" <public kyllingen.NOSPAMnet> writes:
Mike Parker wrote:

 Jordi wrote:

 Kyle Mallory wrote:

 On 4/1/10 10:51 PM, Justin Johansson wrote:

 Nick Sabalausky Wrote:




 <snip>

 Kyle


 I second all this. I understand D is not a "corporative" project 
 backed up by a huge marketing team or anything like that, but better 
 managing of its image and communication channels (in usability and 
 appearance) would help it a lot.


 
 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software. 
 I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not 
 this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear. People who weren't online 
 in their heyday don't expect to have to use them (for that matter, there 
 are those who *were* around and don't expect to have to use them). When 
 someone checks out a project for the first time, it's quite common these 
 days that one of the first stops is the project's forums. No forums? Ah 
 well, too bad. Next project.
 
 These days, you can't expect people to have a newsreader installed by 
 default. Nor can they be expected to know how to use one. [...] 


You can expect them to learn to use a programming language like D, but 
not how to install a news reader?

-Lars
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Lars T. Kyllingstad wrote:

 You can expect them to learn to use a programming language like D, but 
 not how to install a news reader?


The instructions are here:
http://www.digitalmars.com/NewsGroup.html#how-to-install

The problem is, it takes a bit of effort.
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Lars T. Kyllingstad wrote:

 You can expect them to learn to use a programming language like D, but 
 not how to install a news reader?


I found some interesting things. PHP is pretty popular, so I looked at their 
'forum' software:

http://news.php.net/group.php?group=php.general

which is pretty darned similar to:

http://www.digitalmars.com/pnews/indexing.php?server=news.digitalmars.com&group=c++.stl

Now, the most interesting thing is if you go to:

http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php

and under the "Newsgroup" column, click on one of the "yes" links, and it will 
fire up your newsreader and attempt to configure it to read the newsgroups for 
you. Anyone know how to do this?
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent reply "Mathias Laurenz Baumann" <maba0014 stud.fh-kl.de> writes:
It's the protocol part of the link, the "news" in

  news://news.php.net/php.announce

if a handler for that protocol is registered to the browser, it will try=
  =

to use it.
For example, my opera tries to subscribe immidiatly.

--Marenz


Am 03.04.2010, 21:31 Uhr, schrieb Walter Bright  =

<newshound1 digitalmars.com>:


 Lars T. Kyllingstad wrote:

 You can expect them to learn to use a programming language like D, bu=




t  =


 not how to install a news reader?


 I found some interesting things. PHP is pretty popular, so I looked at=


  =


 their 'forum' software:

 http://news.php.net/group.php?group=3Dphp.general

 which is pretty darned similar to:

 http://www.digitalmars.com/pnews/indexing.php?server=3Dnews.digitalmar=


s.com&group=3Dc++.stl

 Now, the most interesting thing is if you go to:

 http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php

 and under the "Newsgroup" column, click on one of the "yes" links, and=


  =


 it will fire up your newsreader and attempt to configure it to read th=


e  =


 newsgroups for you. Anyone know how to do this?



-- =

Erstellt mit Operas revolution=C3=A4rem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.c=
om/mail/
Apr 03 2010
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Mathias Laurenz Baumann wrote:

 It's the protocol part of the link, the "news" in
 
  news://news.php.net/php.announce
 
 if a handler for that protocol is registered to the browser, it will try 
 to use it.
 For example, my opera tries to subscribe immidiatly.


Yup, I just figured that out, too. I'll try and incorporate it.
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Mathias Laurenz Baumann wrote:

 It's the protocol part of the link, the "news" in
 
  news://news.php.net/php.announce
 
 if a handler for that protocol is registered to the browser, it will try 
 to use it.
 For example, my opera tries to subscribe immidiatly.


I rewrote things a bit taking advantage of this information:

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html

See the new Forum link at the top and in the sidebar. I'm not happy with it,
but 
I think it is better.
Apr 04 2010
parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On 4/4/2010 12:11 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Mathias Laurenz Baumann wrote:

 It's the protocol part of the link, the "news" in

  news://news.php.net/php.announce

 if a handler for that protocol is registered to the browser, it will
 try to use it.
 For example, my opera tries to subscribe immidiatly.


 
 I rewrote things a bit taking advantage of this information:
 
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
 
 See the new Forum link at the top and in the sidebar. I'm not happy with
 it, but I think it is better.


You should add a column for all the D groups to point to the mailing list
versions of them:

   http://lists.puremagic.com/

Individually they'd be .../listinfo/<listname>

Also, there's several mailing list only entries you could add:

  d-runtime
  dmd-beta
  dmd-concurrency
  dmd-internals
  phobos
Apr 04 2010
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 I rewrote things a bit taking advantage of this information:

 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html

 See the new Forum link at the top and in the sidebar. I'm not happy with
 it, but I think it is better.


 
 You should add a column for all the D groups to point to the mailing list
 versions of them:
 
    http://lists.puremagic.com/
 
 Individually they'd be .../listinfo/<listname>
 
 Also, there's several mailing list only entries you could add:
 
   d-runtime
   dmd-beta
   dmd-concurrency
   dmd-internals
   phobos


Good idea.
Apr 04 2010
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 Also, there's several mailing list only entries you could add:


Done.
Apr 04 2010
parent reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 04/04/10 23:31, Walter Bright wrote:

 Brad Roberts wrote:

 Also, there's several mailing list only entries you could add:


 Done.


You could also add them as newsgroups and http thanks to gmane:

news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.beta
news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.concurrency
news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.devel (dmd-internal)
news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.phobos

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.beta
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.concurrency
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.devel (dmd-internal)
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.phobos

To use the web interface to reply, use the drop down menu in the top 
right and go to 'followup'. Gmane also has this web interface for the 
other dmd lists (by a proxy admittedly), it might be better than the 
current web interface though... If it is, the source code is open 
source, so you could set up that same interface for all the digital mars 
groups :)
Apr 04 2010
next sibling parent Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 05/04/10 00:29, Robert Clipsham wrote:

 To use the web interface to reply, use the drop down menu in the top
 right and go to 'followup'. Gmane also has this web interface for the
 other dmd lists (by a proxy admittedly), it might be better than the
 current web interface though... If it is, the source code is open
 source, so you could set up that same interface for all the digital mars
 groups :)


Should have given a link to the gmane downloads for the web 
interface/any other part of it you want to steal:

http://gmane.org/dist.php
Apr 04 2010
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Robert Clipsham wrote:

 You could also add them as newsgroups and http thanks to gmane:
 
 news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.beta
 news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.concurrency
 news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.devel (dmd-internal)
 news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.phobos
 
 http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.beta
 http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.concurrency
 http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.devel (dmd-internal)
 http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.phobos


Done, thanks for letting me know.
Apr 05 2010
parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:51:36 -0400, Walter Bright  
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 Robert Clipsham wrote:

 You could also add them as newsgroups and http thanks to gmane:
  news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.beta
 news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.concurrency
 news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.devel (dmd-internal)
 news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.phobos
  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.beta
 http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.concurrency
 http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.dmd.devel (dmd-internal)
 http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.phobos


 Done, thanks for letting me know.


I went looking for where you put these, and found that the navigation bar  
on the left is very inconsistent.  For example, the community box for the  
main D page (http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html) has just 3 links in  
it, whereas the D2 page (http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/index.html) Has  
the forums link expanded into it's own box.  However, I don't see the news  
link unless I click on "Links" in the Community box.

It might be worth seeing how you can auto-generate the side bar instead of  
hand editing it.  This can cut down on the inconsistency and also make the  
web site easier to navigate.

-Steve
Apr 05 2010
prev sibling parent reply Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.com> writes:
On 2010-04-03 15:31:51 -0400, Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> said:


 Now, the most interesting thing is if you go to:
 
 http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php
 
 and under the "Newsgroup" column, click on one of the "yes" links, and 
 it will fire up your newsreader and attempt to configure it to read the 
 newsgroups for you. Anyone know how to do this?


It's just a link with a "news:" URL. Try this one:

	news://news.digitalmars.com/digitalmars.D

-- 
Michel Fortin
michel.fortin michelf.com
http://michelf.com/
Apr 03 2010
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Michel Fortin wrote:

 It's just a link with a "news:" URL. Try this one:
 
     news://news.digitalmars.com/digitalmars.D
 


Aggh, in 10 years of running this forum nobody told me about that!
Apr 03 2010
prev sibling parent reply Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Don Wrote:

 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software. 
 I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not 
 this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear.


 
 I have to say, most forums seem incredibly amateurish to me. I'm amazed 
 that absolute garbage like phpBB is actually still in use. Is there any 
 *good* forum software out there? It doesn't seem like it would be hard 
 to beat a newsgroup. But...


Any amateurish software is far better than the crappy one.
Apr 04 2010
parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Kagamin wrote:

 Don Wrote:

 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software. 
 I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not 
 this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear.


 I have to say, most forums seem incredibly amateurish to me. I'm amazed 
 that absolute garbage like phpBB is actually still in use. Is there any 
 *good* forum software out there? It doesn't seem like it would be hard 
 to beat a newsgroup. But...


 
 Any amateurish software is far better than the crappy one.


If you mean the web interface, yes that's even more amateurish. But I 
hope nobody is seriously using that, it's just a quick hack for if you 
don't have a newreader.
Apr 04 2010
next sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Well... it works, doesn't it? ...sort of...
Apr 04 2010
prev sibling parent Jason House <jason.james.house gmail.com> writes:
Don Wrote:


 Kagamin wrote:

 Don Wrote:

 A big start would be ditching the newsgroups for proper forum software. 
 I know a lot of people here prefer the newsgroups, but like it or not 
 this is 2010. Newsgroups are from yesteryear.


 I have to say, most forums seem incredibly amateurish to me. I'm amazed 
 that absolute garbage like phpBB is actually still in use. Is there any 
 *good* forum software out there? It doesn't seem like it would be hard 
 to beat a newsgroup. But...


 
 Any amateurish software is far better than the crappy one.


 
 If you mean the web interface, yes that's even more amateurish. But I 
 hope nobody is seriously using that, it's just a quick hack for if you 
 don't have a newreader.


It's all I use since 99% of the time I'm reading on a mobil phone. Used in that
way, digitalmars's interface is way better than anything I found for scala.
Apr 04 2010