www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D - The Computer Language Benchmarks Game

reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented there as well? 
Would someone (you? :p) be interested in adding D to the languages there?

There is the following page where the author may not be willing to add a 
new language but the measurement code is available for others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

Ali
Aug 04 2016
next sibling parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

 How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented there 
 as well? Would someone (you? :p) be interested in adding D to 
 the languages there?

 There is the following page where the author may not be willing 
 to add a new language but the measurement code is available for 
 others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

 Ali


There are a few previous threads on this. I think the maintainer 
of the site had posted here before:
https://forum.dlang.org/thread/hfubfc$jrr$2 digitalmars.com?page=1
Aug 04 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ZombineDev <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

 How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented there 
 as well? Would someone (you? :p) be interested in adding D to 
 the languages there?

 There is the following page where the author may not be willing 
 to add a new language but the measurement code is available for 
 others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

 Ali


It seems that this one has a more active community around it + it 
accepts D contributions:

https://github.com/kostya/benchmarks/
Aug 04 2016
next sibling parent Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Friday, 5 August 2016 at 05:22:07 UTC, ZombineDev wrote:

 On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

 How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented 
 there as well? Would someone (you? :p) be interested in adding 
 D to the languages there?

 There is the following page where the author may not be 
 willing to add a new language but the measurement code is 
 available for others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

 Ali


 It seems that this one has a more active community around it + 
 it accepts D contributions:

 https://github.com/kostya/benchmarks/


I want to use this opportunity to congrats you on putting D on 
pos. 1 for their first benchmark! Great job ;-)
Aug 05 2016
prev sibling parent Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Friday, 5 August 2016 at 05:22:07 UTC, ZombineDev wrote:
...

 It seems that this one has a more active community around it...


?

https://alioth.debian.org/activity/?group_id=100815

;-)
Aug 05 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

 How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented there 
 as well? Would someone (you? :p) be interested in adding D to 
 the languages there?

 There is the following page where the author may not be willing 
 to add a new language but the measurement code is available for 
 others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

 Ali


I did play with the benchmarks for a while: 
https://bitbucket.org/qznc/d-shootout

Ultimately, my opinion is that the benchmark is outdated and not 
useful today. I ignore it, if anybody cites the benchmark game 
for performance measurements.
Aug 05 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/5/2016 7:02 AM, qznc wrote:

 Ultimately, my opinion is that the benchmark is outdated and not useful today.
I
 ignore it, if anybody cites the benchmark game for performance measurements.


Yeah, I wouldn't bother with it, either.
Aug 06 2016
next sibling parent reply Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Sat, 2016-08-06 at 22:04 -0700, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On 8/5/2016 7:02 AM, qznc wrote:

=20
 Ultimately, my opinion is that the benchmark is outdated and not
 useful today. I
 ignore it, if anybody cites the benchmark game for performance
 measurements.


=20
 Yeah, I wouldn't bother with it, either.


Since so much effort has gone into constructing wierd and wonderful
implementations just to gain speed on the one platform, yes the game
itself is long past it real usefulness. If it reverted to programmer
friendly algorithmic expression with a view to performance, then the
problems and the game would become relevant again. I cannot see this
happening, sadly.

In the end a bit of X10 or Chapel code running on a Blue Gene ro Cray
is going to annihilate any code written in Fortran, FORTRAN, C++, C, or
any other language for performance.

--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
Aug 07 2016
parent Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Sunday, 7 August 2016 at 13:30:27 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:


 In the end a bit of X10 or Chapel code running on a Blue Gene 
 ro Cray is going to annihilate any code written in Fortran, 
 FORTRAN, C++, C, or any other language for performance.



http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=chapel&lang2=gpp
Aug 07 2016
prev sibling parent reply Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Sunday, 7 August 2016 at 05:04:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:


 Ultimately, my opinion is that the benchmark is outdated and 
 not useful today. I
 ignore it, if anybody cites the benchmark game for performance 
 measurements.


 Yeah, I wouldn't bother with it, either.




Rather than only being dismissive, wouldn't it be more effective 
to say what you would bother with.

https://github.com/kostya/crystal-benchmarks-game

https://github.com/def-/nim-benchmarksgame

Where are the D comparison programs that people should bother 
with?
Aug 07 2016
next sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Sunday, 7 August 2016 at 17:53:12 UTC, Isaac Gouy wrote:

 On Sunday, 7 August 2016 at 05:04:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:


 Ultimately, my opinion is that the benchmark is outdated and 
 not useful today. I
 ignore it, if anybody cites the benchmark game for 
 performance measurements.


 Yeah, I wouldn't bother with it, either.




 Rather than only being dismissive, wouldn't it be more 
 effective to say what you would bother with.

 https://github.com/kostya/crystal-benchmarks-game

 https://github.com/def-/nim-benchmarksgame

 Where are the D comparison programs that people should bother 
 with?


Comparing so many languages is too broad. We need more specific 
benchmarks which must be looked at in more detail.

For example, it makes sense to have a benchmark for regular 
expressions. It is interesting to compare Rust and D, because 
they both use compile-time tricks, which C cannot do. It makes no 
sense to compare them to an equivalent Python/Ruby/etc program, 
because they all use the same C library internally. More details: 
Regular expressions are used in very different scenarios, so one 
program might not be enough. Simple expression or complex 
expression? Find first or find all? ASCII or Unicode? Large 
haystack or small?

If you want to answer the big question of "how fast is D compared 
to C", the best answer is "roughly the same if you compare clang 
to LDC, because they use the same optimizer and code generator". 
Getting some numbers from a bunch of benchmark programs does not 
improve the answer. You can only get a better answer in the sense 
that it becomes more specific to your specific use case, but that 
requires you to build your own benchmark.
Aug 07 2016
parent reply Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Sunday, 7 August 2016 at 21:19:54 UTC, qznc wrote:


 Comparing so many languages is too broad. We need more specific 
 benchmarks which must be looked at in more detail.


"Chapel programs versus C++ g++" just compares 2.

Where are those "more specific benchmarks" ?



 If you want to answer the big question of "how fast is D 
 compared to C", the best answer is "roughly the same if you 
 compare clang to LDC, because they use the same optimizer and 
 code generator".


So does -fllvm Haskell.

Is your "roughly the same" within 10% or is it 2x slower or is it 
3x slower?

Doesn't "getting some numbers from a bunch of benchmark programs" 
improve that answer.
Aug 07 2016
parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 7 August 2016 at 22:43:35 UTC, Isaac Gouy wrote:

 "Chapel programs versus C++ g++" just compares 2.

 Where are those "more specific benchmarks" ?


I think he's referring to a HPC cluster running chapel vs. C++ 
versions of programs.

However, I would argue Chapel would only win those comparisons 
when you're comparing Chapel taking advantage of all the 
different computers in the cluster vs. C++ code that is not 
taking advantage of everything it could. For instance, Chapel 
does not have good support for graphics cards as of yet. Anyway, 
Chapel does their own benchmarks against things like C+MPI. In 
some cases it's good, but it's not consistently better. The 
advantage to Chapel is its simplicity and expressiveness.
Aug 07 2016
parent Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 00:15:09 UTC, jmh530 wrote:


 I think he's referring to a HPC cluster running chapel vs. C++ 
 versions of programs.


Let's not speculate about Russel Winder's comment.



 The advantage to Chapel is its simplicity and expressiveness.


That does seem to be the selling point -- even with tiny tiny 
benchmarks game programs.
Aug 08 2016
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/7/2016 10:53 AM, Isaac Gouy wrote:

 Rather than only being dismissive,


http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/No_D_in_Great_Computer_Language_Shootout_103371.html#N103383

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ckxjv/d_an_up_and_coming_embedded_software_language/c0u7uv8

If you've changed your mind about putting D back on the site, we'd be happy to
help.
Aug 07 2016
parent reply Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 00:44:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 8/7/2016 10:53 AM, Isaac Gouy wrote:

 Rather than only being dismissive,




How did you get from


 Yeah, I wouldn't bother with it, either.




to


 If you've changed your mind about putting D back on the site, 
 we'd be happy to help.


?
Aug 08 2016
parent reply Meta <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 16:37:27 UTC, Isaac Gouy wrote:

 On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 00:44:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 8/7/2016 10:53 AM, Isaac Gouy wrote:

 Rather than only being dismissive,




 How did you get from


 Yeah, I wouldn't bother with it, either.




 to


 If you've changed your mind about putting D back on the site, 
 we'd be happy to help.


 ?


Despite the fact that comparing benchmarks across languages tells 
you very little about how "fast" that language is, people still 
routinely ask why D isn't represented and then conclude that it 
can't be that popular of a language or worth their time.
Aug 08 2016
next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Mon, Aug 08, 2016 at 05:11:54PM +0000, Meta via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]

 Despite the fact that comparing benchmarks across languages tells you
 very little about how "fast" that language is, people still routinely
 ask why D isn't represented and then conclude that it can't be that
 popular of a language or worth their time.


I have never understood how popularity has anything to do with quality.


T

-- 
Making non-nullable pointers is just plugging one hole in a cheese grater. --
Walter Bright
Aug 08 2016
parent reply Meta <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 17:16:52 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Mon, Aug 08, 2016 at 05:11:54PM +0000, Meta via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]

 Despite the fact that comparing benchmarks across languages 
 tells you very little about how "fast" that language is, 
 people still routinely ask why D isn't represented and then 
 conclude that it can't be that popular of a language or worth 
 their time.


 I have never understood how popularity has anything to do with 
 quality.


 T


It isn't; see: Javascript, Go. The only thing we have to 
understand is that how popular people perceive a language to be 
affects whether or not they will use it.
Aug 08 2016
parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2016 19:26:25 +0000, Meta wrote:


 On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 17:16:52 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I have never understood how popularity has anything to do with quality.


 
 It isn't; see: Javascript, Go. The only thing we have to understand is
 that how popular people perceive a language to be affects whether or not
 they will use it.


My impression of Go is that it has good production quality. It's got 
pretty good tooling for its age, and you're unlikely to encounter an 
internal compiler error.

Popularity *tends* to bring that sort of quality with it -- a language or 
framework that's widely used will likely be used by a company that can 
afford to put significant resources behind it. Popularity draws more eyes 
to expose problems and volunteers to fix bugs.

In D land, a lot of us did without for a fair few years. But these days, 
things are getting a lot better.
Aug 08 2016
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 at 03:21:37 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 My impression of Go is that it has good production quality.


go is... not a very good language. it doesn't matter how good the 
compiler is if language is... mediocre.
Aug 08 2016
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 06:27:34 ketmar via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 at 03:21:37 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 My impression of Go is that it has good production quality.


 go is... not a very good language. it doesn't matter how good the
 compiler is if language is... mediocre.


As far as my personal use goes, I certainly agree, but as far as usage by
programmers in general goes, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Languages like Javascript and PHP are prime examples. Most everyone thinks
that they're horrible, but they get used heavily. And personally, I'd
definitely label Java as being totally mediocre, but tons of folks use it.
Honestly, if anything, it often seems like it's the worst languages which
get used the most. :(

- Jonathan M Davis
Aug 09 2016
parent ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 at 07:18:59 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 it often seems like it's the worst languages which get used the 
 most. :(


yeah. i tend to believe that laguage quality itself doesn't 
really matter much. to become popular, language should either has 
no alternative (javascript in browsers, php as "easy to write 
web"), or some big corp to market it (go, java).

and in all those cases language will not be spectacular, for many 
reasons. mediocre at best.

risking to being harsh/rude here, i'd say that if someone is 
judging laguage by some kind of "popularity" instead of technical 
reasons, such person should better go to some "popular language". 
because i bet that he/she will do that anyway, 'cause "walking 
with the crowd" means much more than technical superiority in 
this case.
Aug 09 2016
prev sibling parent LaTeigne <LaTeigne blabla.fr> writes:
On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 at 06:27:34 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 at 03:21:37 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 My impression of Go is that it has good production quality.


 go is... not a very good language.


It probably seems a bit savorless but to the extent that it was 
designed "as a better C" there's no scam.

Also it was very quickly bottstrapped. I wonder if bootstrapping 
was not a priority over the features set.
Aug 09 2016
prev sibling parent reply Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 17:11:54 UTC, Meta wrote:


 Despite the fact that comparing benchmarks across languages 
 tells you very little about how "fast" that language is …


Doing so would at-least offer something for people to consider.
Aug 08 2016
parent reply Emre Temelkuran <etemelkuran gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 22:53:48 UTC, Isaac Gouy wrote:

 On Monday, 8 August 2016 at 17:11:54 UTC, Meta wrote:


 Despite the fact that comparing benchmarks across languages 
 tells you very little about how "fast" that language is …


 Doing so would at-least offer something for people to consider.


Mr. Isaac it's the last warning to you from the community of 
Ionian Kingdom, i want to see D lang listed in 
https://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/ . If you don't do it, 
you will suffer the consequences.
Aug 08 2016
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/8/2016 8:02 PM, Emre Temelkuran wrote:

 If you don't do it, you will suffer the consequences.


Don't threaten people here, even in jest.
Aug 08 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply H.Loom <loom grossnet.az> writes:
On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

 How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented there 
 as well? Would someone (you? :p) be interested in adding D to 
 the languages there?

 There is the following page where the author may not be willing 
 to add a new language but the measurement code is available for 
 others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

 Ali


Bump
Aug 05 2016
parent reply H.Loom <loom grossnet.az> writes:
On Friday, 5 August 2016 at 15:44:54 UTC, H.Loom wrote:

 On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

 How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented 
 there as well? Would someone (you? :p) be interested in adding 
 D to the languages there?

 There is the following page where the author may not be 
 willing to add a new language but the measurement code is 
 available for others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

 Ali


 Bump


Sorry wrong topic !
Aug 05 2016
parent H.Loom <loom grossnet.az> writes:
On Friday, 5 August 2016 at 15:46:15 UTC, H.Loom wrote:

 On Friday, 5 August 2016 at 15:44:54 UTC, H.Loom wrote:

 On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 We don't hear about the following site here any more:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/

 How relevant is that site for us? Should D be represented 
 there as well? Would someone (you? :p) be interested in 
 adding D to the languages there?

 There is the following page where the author may not be 
 willing to add a new language but the measurement code is 
 available for others to use:

   http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#misc

 Ali


 Bump


 Sorry wrong topic !


No finally it was this one.
Aug 05 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:


 but the measurement code is available for others to use:



Someone had those benchmarks game measurement scripts working 
with D - a couple of years ago - but then … ?

https://forum.dlang.org/post/lvajbi$1477$1 digitalmars.com

http://forum.dlang.org/post/bsljikpxxvrcxwspoypr forum.dlang.org
Aug 05 2016
prev sibling parent Isaac Gouy <igouy2 yahoo.com> writes:
On Thursday, 4 August 2016 at 20:15:35 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:


 but the measurement code is available for others to use


It's down to you --

"If you're interested in something not shown on the benchmarks 
game website then please take the program source code and the 
measurement scripts and publish your own measurements."


You've already found the measurement scripts --

http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/download/benchmarksgame-script.zip


To help you start, I've gone through the archive and zip'd the 
previously-contributed D programs which you should probably 
update --

http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/download/dlang-benchmarksgame-programs.zip
Aug 09 2016