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digitalmars.D - TIOBE February 2016.... 15 ?!

reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
but it sure will be great for its image.
Feb 02 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.


I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search 
trend for "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming 
langauge)":

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1

golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is 
stable.
Feb 02 2016
next sibling parent reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:45:02 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously.


I'm pretty sure nobody here does, but I know lots of people 
outside who care.
Also I find showing even little achievements good for the troop's 
morale.

I won't enter any fight, see last month's TIOBE post for the 
arguments ;)
Feb 02 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:50:07 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 Also I find showing even little achievements good for the 
 troop's morale.


Well, it is better to have good information. If you zoom in on 
the link above you'll see some interesting facts on daily 
patterns. The Swift and Go graph go way down in weekends, so they 
are used by businesses. Rust does not, so it currently is 
appealing to hobbyists. D should think about capturing some of 
that Rust audience.

What is important is to be realistic, so that a good strategy can 
be selected.

Right now Rust may have 10x more interest than D, and C++ 40x 
more interest than Rust. Just a guesstimate based on search 
frequencies, but it stacks up with github.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply CraigDillabaugh <craig.dillabaugh gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:00:20 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:50:07 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 Also I find showing even little achievements good for the 
 troop's morale.


 Well, it is better to have good information. If you zoom in on 
 the link above you'll see some interesting facts on daily 
 patterns. The Swift and Go graph go way down in weekends, so 
 they are used by businesses. Rust does not, so it currently is 
 appealing to hobbyists. D should think about capturing some of 
 that Rust audience.

 What is important is to be realistic, so that a good strategy 
 can be selected.

 Right now Rust may have 10x more interest than D, and C++ 40x 
 more interest than Rust. Just a guesstimate based on search 
 frequencies, but it stacks up with github.


C++ is likely searched the most because every time you need to do 
anything non-trivial you need to go on Stack Overflow or a 
similar site and find out how to do it, because there is very 
little chance you would ever be able to figure out the syntax on 
your own :o)
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 13:12:13 UTC, CraigDillabaugh 
wrote:

 C++ is likely searched the most because every time you need to 
 do anything non-trivial you need to go on Stack Overflow or a 
 similar site and find out how to do it, because there is very 
 little chance you would ever be able to figure out the syntax 
 on your own :o)


:-)

"C++" has a 30% drop in weekends so it is certainly affected by 
business usage.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 08:45 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was but it
 sure will be great for its image.


 I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search trend for
 "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming langauge)":

 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1


 golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is stable.


Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I get are 
tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the results 
considerably. Results using Google's categorization instead:
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F01kbt7&date=1%2F2009%2085m&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1

Those are still the same tiny numbers, though, so there's really not 
much to infer from this.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:23:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:

 Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I 
 get are tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the 
 results considerably.


Not really, you look at trends over time not absolutes.



 Results using Google's categorization instead:


I have found the Google classification to be wrong in the past.

So I think it is better to find a term that is unique for the 
language, I don't know any such term for Rust though.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 09:29 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:23:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:

 Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I get are
 tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the results
 considerably.


 Not really, you look at trends over time not absolutes.


Okay, I see, it's just percentage of the highest value. To make any kind 
of qualitative judgements, it would be necessary to at least have a hint 
for the absolute numbers.


 Results using Google's categorization instead:


 I have found the Google classification to be wrong in the past.


I have no doubt about that!


 So I think it is better to find a term that is unique for the language,
 I don't know any such term for Rust though.


And how do you verify that that's a better classification? If you look 
at the graphs of any of "D", "dlang", "D programming language", "D 
language", "D programming", none of them seems to correlate with events 
such as the date of first publication, version 1.000, version 2.000, the 
conferences etc.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:43:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:

 And how do you verify that that's a better classification? If 
 you look at the graphs of any of "D", "dlang", "D programming 
 language", "D language", "D programming", none of them seems to 
 correlate with events such as the date of first publication, 
 version 1.000, version 2.000, the conferences etc.


You have to make a qualitative judgement. Terms such as "dlang" 
has only been in used in recent years and probably only by 
invested users. It is difficult to find terms for "D" that have 
enough volume to show up. "d programming language" is probably 
only used by non-users, it shows a clear spike in october 2004, 
july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a general falling trend. 
While "dlang" is more stable.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:53:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 enough volume to show up. "d programming language" is probably 
 only used by non-users, it shows a clear spike in october 2004, 
 july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a general falling 
 trend. While "dlang" is more stable.


The cause of the biggest spike of interest,  january 2007:

http://developers.slashdot.org/story/07/01/01/2041256/the-d-programming-language-version-10
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 09:53 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:43:39 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:

 And how do you verify that that's a better classification? If you look
 at the graphs of any of "D", "dlang", "D programming language", "D
 language", "D programming", none of them seems to correlate with
 events such as the date of first publication, version 1.000, version
 2.000, the conferences etc.


 You have to make a qualitative judgement. Terms such as "dlang" has only
 been in used in recent years and probably only by invested users. It is
 difficult to find terms for "D" that have enough volume to show up. "d
 programming language" is probably only used by non-users, it shows a
 clear spike in october 2004, july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a
 general falling trend. While "dlang" is more stable.


I agree with this in general, but the uncertainty is still far to high 
to be able to make comparisons between languages. Rough trends maybe.

BTW, this one (using the "programming" category) looks like it could be 
somewhat neutral: 
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=d%20language%2C%20rust%20language%2C%20go%20language%2C%20swift%20language&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1

At least it shows the characteristic spikes for each language and the 
related searches look reasonable. But the popularity of D pre-2007 looks 
odd, and with such a bias it's impossible to read anything out of the 
more recent numbers (in terms of absolute value) without wishful thinking.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 09:09:20 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:

 At least it shows the characteristic spikes for each language 
 and the related searches look reasonable. But the popularity of 
 D pre-2007 looks odd, and with such a bias it's impossible to 
 read anything out of the more recent numbers (in terms of 
 absolute value) without wishful thinking.


Yes, I think counting significant libraries/framworks and github 
activity provide better absolute measurements for comparable 
languages (Go, Rust, D), but doesn't work for enterprise 
languages.

Still, the trends says something about the future of competing 
languages, so if one want to lay down a strategy it can be 
useful. And it also can tell us something about what events leads 
to increased/falling interest.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply WebFreak001 <janju007 web.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 09:09:20 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:

 BTW, this one (using the "programming" category) looks like it 
 could be somewhat neutral: 
 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=d%20language%2C%20rust%20language%2C%20go%20language%2C%20swift%20language&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1


Combining that with the categories now gives a graph which looks 
very likely to be correct:

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=%2Fm%2F01kbt7%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1


On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:43:44 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 D has been around the corner for a D-ecade.


I laughed.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:34:09 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote:

 Combining that with the categories now gives a graph which 
 looks very likely to be correct:

 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=%2Fm%2F01kbt7%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1


That would make D very popular in China and Russia, compared to 
the US. Maybe it is, I don't know.
Feb 03 2016
parent WebFreak001 <janju007 web.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:41:01 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 That would make D very popular in China and Russia, compared to 
 the US. Maybe it is, I don't know.


It puts Japan on the first place. Considering how the #dlang 
twitter hashtag looks like this could be very true.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:53:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 You have to make a qualitative judgement. Terms such as "dlang" 
 has only been in used in recent years and probably only by 
 invested users. It is difficult to find terms for "D" that have 
 enough volume to show up. "d programming language" is probably 
 only used by non-users, it shows a clear spike in october 2004, 
 july 2005, january 2007, july 2014, but a general falling 
 trend. While "dlang" is more stable.


I never search dlang. I typically search d language
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 03.02.2016 um 09:23 schrieb Sönke Ludwig:

 Am 03.02.2016 um 08:45 schrieb Ola Fosheim Grøstad:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was but it
 sure will be great for its image.


 I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search trend for
 "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming langauge)":

 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1



 golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is stable.


 Maybe it's showing different results to you, but the numbers I get are
 tiny. Also, picking arbitrary search terms skews the results
 considerably. Results using Google's categorization instead:
 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F09gbxjr%2C%20%2Fm%2F010sd4y3%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6%2C%20%2Fm%2F01kbt7&date=1%2F2009%2085m&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1


 Those are still the same tiny numbers, though, so there's really not
 much to infer from this.


So for comparison, D (Programming Language) shows 36 searches in January 
2016 in Google Trends for me, while the webmaster tools show 235 klicks 
on vibed.org for "vibe.d" searches in the same timeframe (12 clicks for 
"dlang"). So the question is what those Google Trend numbers actually 
show, it can't be the total amount of searches.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:34:47 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote:

 So for comparison, D (Programming Language) shows 36 searches 
 in January 2016 in Google Trends for me, while the webmaster 
 tools show 235 klicks on vibed.org for "vibe.d" searches in the 
 same timeframe (12 clicks for "dlang"). So the question is what 
 those Google Trend numbers actually show, it can't be the total 
 amount of searches.


I believe it is percentage relative to the peak of the graph?

But the heuristics for the aggregated Google classification is 
very wrong, maybe they put more effort into the big languages 
like Java and C++? I've previously seen "java d compiler" 
classified as related to "d programming language".
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:40:54 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 08:34:47 UTC, Sönke Ludwig 
 wrote:

 So for comparison, D (Programming Language) shows 36 searches 
 in January 2016 in Google Trends for me, while the webmaster 
 tools show 235 klicks on vibed.org for "vibe.d" searches in 
 the same timeframe (12 clicks for "dlang"). So the question is 
 what those Google Trend numbers actually show, it can't be the 
 total amount of searches.


 I believe it is percentage relative to the peak of the graph?


If you hover over the question mark in the circle you get this:

«Numbers represent search interest relative to the highest point 
on the chart. If, at most,10% of searches for the given region 
and time frame were for "pizza," we'd consider this 100. This 
doesn't convey absolute search volume. Learn more»
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Tobias=20M=C3=BCller?= <troplin bluewin.ch> writes:
Ola Fosheim Grøstad <ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang gmail.com> wrote:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
 
 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.


 
 I don't think anyone takes Tiobe seriously. Here is the search 
 trend for "dlang", "golang", "swift ios" and "rust (programming 
 langauge)":
 
 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=dlang%2C%20golang%2C%20swift%20ios%2C%20%2Fm%2F0dsbpg6&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1
 
 golang and swift are soaring, rust is gaining ground and dlang is 
 stable.
 
 


Tiobe is measuring search _results_, not queries.

Tobi
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 16:45:02 UTC, Tobias Müller 
wrote:

 Tiobe is measuring search _results_, not queries.


Tiobe is measuring signal + lots of noise.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 17:16:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 16:45:02 UTC, Tobias Müller 
 wrote:

 Tiobe is measuring search _results_, not queries.


 Tiobe is measuring signal + lots of noise.


So like google trends.

Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 17:43:59 UTC, bubbasaur wrote:

 So like google trends.


All quantitative studies that are done without consideration 
suffers from this. It isn't a property of Google Trends, but of 
the analytical performance of the person using it...
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:
[...]

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.


Oh, I am sure I caused it myself, I am new on D and all my 
searching for it and than Bang  ! :-)

So, don't try to understand Tiobe, just be happy D is a new entry 
for top 20, and work hard to improve DMD, GDC, LDC, DUB, vibe.d 
etc... to make this real cool programming experience open for 
more people. Like me, frustrated from ever faster computers 
becoming slower by scripting languages and Browsers doing the 
job, where a real alternative is around the corner: D.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:41:40 UTC, Martin 
Tschierschke wrote:

 open for more people. Like me, frustrated from ever faster 
 computers becoming slower by scripting languages and Browsers 
 doing the job, where a real alternative is around the corner: D.


D has been around the corner for a D-ecade. The corner is 
constantly moving so that is obviously not a winning strategy.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:43:44 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 10:41:40 UTC, Martin 
 Tschierschke wrote:

 open for more people. Like me, frustrated from ever faster 
 computers becoming slower by scripting languages and Browsers 
 doing the job, where a real alternative is around the corner: 
 D.


 D has been around the corner for a D-ecade. The corner is 
 constantly moving so that is obviously not a winning strategy.


If something is around the corner, you must know!

So I got it via this:
http://www.heise.de/developer/meldung/Programmiersprache-D-Compiler-ist-jetzt-selbst-in-D-geschrieben-2869589.html

The most read IT News Ticker in Germany, pointing to D, saying 
that the D compiler now is written in D, and what made me 
interested, the reference to C++ and Ruby.
So I started to read Wikipedia and in the end I gave it a try.

What about making a special voting list/page, where every one 
registered to the forum, can
put in, why he/she is using D and vote for other arguments giving 
+ or maybe - points.

And a special second list, where people can vote, which topic of 
D (language or environemt) need to be improved most?
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 12:06:30 UTC, Martin 
Tschierschke wrote:

 If something is around the corner, you must know!


There are many corners. Some, like the corner of compiled 
languages with automatic memory management and high level 
features have moved a lot in the past few years (Swift and Go). 
It is gone. There is no way for D to catch up with Swift and Go.

The other corner, taken by C, C++ and now also Rust, moves a lot 
slower and is in some areas incapable of moving. So I think the 
current focus on interfacing with C++ is the right focus, just 
keep focused on it. D needs to reach parity with common C++ 
features and then do it better across the board.

C++ is basically incapable of undoing past bad design decisions. 
D also have baggage, but D is fortunate enough to have commercial 
users who have clearly stated that they welcome breaking changes, 
so D can thankfully get rid of bad design choices.

C++ cannot break existing code, and Rust has gone down a trail of 
semantics that leads to complicated compiler design. That's to 
D's advantage, if D avoid going down similar complicated routes 
(unfortunately some DIPs suggests otherwise). There's lots of 
potential there if the D designers stay focused on that target 
and take the fast path (avoid convoluted semantics and compiler 
requirements).



 And a special second list, where people can vote, which topic 
 of D (language or environemt) need to be improved most?


The historical challenge for D is a tendency to spread out. 
Voting is no good, it takes away focus. Then you are back to 
hunting down many corners, and D will remain one step behind.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 12:21:05 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 12:06:30 UTC, Martin 
 Tschierschke wrote:

 If something is around the corner, you must know!


 There are many corners. Some, like the corner of compiled 
 languages with automatic memory management and high level 
 features have moved a lot in the past few years (Swift and Go). 
 It is gone. There is no way for D to catch up with Swift and Go.


May be, I did not start to learn anything about these languages 
yet,
so I just looked on the Wikipedia pages, and I am not convinced.
Why? Syntax not C compatible, but for me this is a very strong 
argument, because everybody is defining his own similar elements 
and after "learning" some
Languages 
(Basic,Z80Asm,Pascal,Comal,Prolog,(x86Asm),C,C++,Perl,Php,Ruby 
(RoR))
I am quite happy, that D offers a 'known' syntax.
And the opportunity to use it for scripting - compiling very fast 


By learning D, I can write a super fast web applications (vibe.d) 
+
stand alone programs for any purpose and even do scripting tasks.

Is there any other language candidate offering the same?


 The other corner, taken by C, C++ and now also Rust, moves a 
 lot slower and is in some areas incapable of moving. So I think 
 the current focus on interfacing with C++ is the right focus, 
 just keep focused on it. D needs to reach parity with common 
 C++ features and then do it better across the board.


Sounds right.

[...]


 And a special second list, where people can vote, which topic 
 of D (language or environment) need to be improved most?


 The historical challenge for D is a tendency to spread out. 
 Voting is no good, it takes away focus. Then you are back to 
 hunting down many corners, and D will remain one step behind.


The voting purpose is exactly to see what are the improvements 
really needed, to get this focus. I think, it is not so useful, 
that there are already min. 4 different DUB modules to access 
MySQL/MariaDB).
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:14:39 UTC, Martin 
Tschierschke wrote:

 Why? Syntax not C compatible, but for me this is a very strong 
 argument, because everybody is defining his own similar 
 elements and after "learning" some  Languages 
 (Basic,Z80Asm,Pascal,Comal,Prolog,(x86Asm),C,C++,Perl,Php,Ruby 
 (RoR))
 I am quite happy, that D offers a 'known' syntax.


What is considered a "known" syntax changes over time though. You 
know Comal? Isn't that a danish language that never got much 
traction outside Denmark? I remember reading danish computer 
magazines in the late 80s that devoted many pages to it.


 By learning D, I can write a super fast web applications 
 (vibe.d) +
 stand alone programs for any purpose and even do scripting 
 tasks.

 Is there any other language candidate offering the same?


Not if you want the kind of C++ style metaprogramming that D 
offers. Go is ok for web applications, Python is ok for 
scripting; I am inclined to use those for web as they are 
supported by Google Cloud. If you want to do everything with one 
language D might be closer.

I personally don't see much advantage in using one language for 
everything, but some people see it as a major benefit.


 The voting purpose is exactly to see what are the improvements 
 really needed, to get this focus.


If the D community wasn't spread out: economic/scientific, games, 
web, hobby, professional, educated, non-educated... There tends 
to be contention between those that want to see D strive to 
become a potent system level programming language and those that 
want to see D become a convenient compiled scripting language. 
Trying to move in both directions at the same time is bound to 
lead to a net slow down in progress IMHO.


 I think, it is not so useful, that there are already min. 4 
 different DUB modules to access MySQL/MariaDB).


The D eco system suffers a bit from having eager programmers, but 
not enough of them, so you have all these libraries that are 
created, but not polished and maintained.
Feb 03 2016
parent Martin Tschierschke <mt smartdolphin.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 14:34:26 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:
[..]

 You know Comal? Isn't that a danish language that never got 
 much traction outside Denmark? I remember reading danish 
 computer magazines in the late 80s that devoted many pages to 
 it.


Comal, Yes, it was one of our learning languages in 
School...~1984?
[...]

 The voting purpose is exactly to see what are the improvements 
 really needed, to get this focus.


 If the D community wasn't spread out: economic/scientific, 
 games, web, hobby, professional, educated, non-educated... 
 There tends to be contention between those that want to see D 
 strive to become a potent system level programming language and 
 those that want to see D become a convenient compiled scripting 
 language. Trying to move in both directions at the same time is 
 bound to lead to a net slow down in progress IMHO.


Ok.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Dejan Lekic <dejan.lekic gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.


Well, people who observe TIOBE index knew this is going to 
happen. Did we? :)
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html


Very good, and different from the other guy I think this list is 
very reasonable, just look the top languages and their positions 
and I agree.

So guys let's celebrate this! :)

Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply rsw0x <anonymous anonymous.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 07:06:47 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions: 
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it sure will be great for its image.


Doesn't matter if Tiobe is wrong or not, being in the top 20 is 
*good* for D because a lot of people do indeed use Tiobe.
Any exposure = good exposure.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:09:23 UTC, rsw0x wrote:

 Doesn't matter if Tiobe is wrong or not, being in the top 20 is 
 *good* for D because a lot of people do indeed use Tiobe.
 Any exposure = good exposure.


That's kinda like saying that winning 6 out of 6 coin-flips is 
undeniably good for Clinton, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Depends 
on the reader. But it is undeniably bad for Clinton's campaign if 
they think they can rest on their laurels and win the race by 
chance.


If we take a look at the most voted topics on StackOverflow, 
languages like C++, Rust and Go have "language technical" 
questions, but for D the list is dominated by questions related 
to credibility, many asking for a comparison of D to C++. So 
clearly D can most likely gain a lot from addressing aspects that 
people care about.


Top votes for D on StackOverflow:


149 votes 32k views
C++ versus D [closed]
Is the D language a credible alternative to Java and C++? What 
will it take to become a credible alternative? Should I bother 
learning it?

137 votes 38k views
Why isn't the 'D' language picking up? [closed]
Anybody using language 'D'? Why isn't it more popular?

126 votes 36k views
D Programming Language in the real world? [closed]
Is anyone out there using D for real world applications? If so, 
what are you using it for? I can't seem to find anything big on 
the web written in D.

108 votes 23k views
How fast is D compared to C++?
I like some features of D, but would be interested if they come 
with a runtime penalty? To compare, I implemented a simple 
program that computes scalar products of many short vectors both 
in C++ and ...

76 votes 8k views
What are the differences between concepts and template 
constraints?
I want to know what are the semantic differences between the C++ 
full concepts proposal and template constraints (for instance, 
constraints as appeared in Dlang or the new concepts-lite 
proposal for ..

69 votes 15k views
Why 0.1 + 0.2 == 0.3 in D?
assert(0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3);

69 votes 3k views
To GC or Not To GC
I've recently seen two really nice and educating languages talks: 
This first one by Herb Sutter, presents all the nice and cool 
features of C++0x, why C++'s future seems brighter than ever, and 
how ...
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:29:00 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 ...


Man, this is all matter of opinion and I sincerely respect yours, 
but you're always being pessimistic, every good news here and I 
saw you undermining the effect.

I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on 
Reddit and people talk about for good or worst.

Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:16:00 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:

 I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on 
 Reddit and people talk about for good or worst.


Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the 
forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, lacking 
tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad impression, 
because they had higher expectations.

If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the 
current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of Swift. 
Which D cannot deliver.

Yes, I am pessimistic when it comes to FUD, it leads to 
resentment.

What the D community needs is users with realistic expectations 
and goals.
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent rsw0x <anonymous anonymous.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:28:29 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:16:00 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:

 I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on 
 Reddit and people talk about for good or worst.


 Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the 
 forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, 
 lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad 
 impression, because they had higher expectations.

 If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the 
 current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of 
 Swift. Which D cannot deliver.

 Yes, I am pessimistic when it comes to FUD, it leads to 
 resentment.

 What the D community needs is users with realistic expectations 
 and goals.


None of those things happen without users, and being high on 
tiobe gets users.
The D community is stretched incredibly thin already.
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent reply Bubbasaur <bubba gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:28:29 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 ...
 Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the 
 forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, 
 lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad 
 impression, because they had higher expectations.


Yes they leave and go to another language with a lot of tools but 
the new language design sucks or it's slow to developing or have 
restrictions whatever.


 If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the 
 current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of 
 Swift. Which D cannot deliver.


Couldn't some of those "new" people see a great potential on D 
and write new tools that is lacking right now?

Sorry but this is not like be realistic you're being too much 
pessimistic. Let the river take it's course. :)

Bubba.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:48:48 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:

 Yes they leave and go to another language with a lot of tools 
 but the new language design sucks or it's slow to developing or 
 have restrictions whatever.


It is possible to position a language as a focused niche 
alternative, people like to bet on the underdog. That's what 
attracted me to D 10 years ago. Walter was this courageous geek 
that singlehandedly challenged the big and bloated C++. I 
realized D was not finished, but had a favourable impression 
because my initial expectations were low.

That meant I had low resistance to downloading D again a few 
years later, and so on. So, even if people are leaving, it is 
important that they leave without resentment, after all if they 
were willing to give D a spin once, they might be willing to spin 
it up a few more times later on. Feel good.



 Couldn't some of those "new" people see a great potential on D 
 and write new tools that is lacking right now?


They could, but are they likely to? The most likely group to do 
system level programming are system level programmers, so 
realistic articles, presentations and talks that make D look 
technically interesting are more likely to win them over.

As the "most voted topics" on StackOverflow shows, D has a 
perceived credibility problem. Being honest and realistic is the 
best way to address that, IMO.

Perpetrating the idea that D is as big as Swift just hurts D's 
credibility.
Feb 03 2016
parent reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 20:41:59 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
Grøstad wrote:

 It is possible to position a language as a focused niche 
 alternative, people like to bet on the underdog. That's what 
 attracted me to D 10 years ago. Walter was this courageous geek 
 that singlehandedly challenged the big and bloated C++. I 
 realized D was not finished, but had a favourable impression 
 because my initial expectations were low.
[...]


Alright, you win, I'm going to buy some bottles of whisky and 
play blues all night to atone for the dreary thought of hords of 
users coming to see what is done here. It's not as if we were 
responsible for the TIOBE ranking, but we sure are responsible 
for giving them hope in a new, how hopelessly uncomplete language 
that we love.  They'll harass the developers with new uncovered 
issues and criticate their choices. They'll fill the General 
section of the forum with questions meant for Learn. They'll talk 
about C++ like never before and maybe even about Rust or Go.  The 
most clement ones will leave but not without a dreadful blog post 
pointing at D's defects. The real problem will be with the other 
ones, those who will decide to stay. Some by innocent cruelty, 
others by sheer curiosity. They'll ask about how they can help 
just to see our aimless messages unable to guide them to do 
anything useful.

You're right, gaining unwanted attention really is a nightmare.

Oh, quick, a drink, I think I hear the first of them. They're 
coming...

D's DoomsDay.
Feb 03 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 23:08:19 UTC, cym13 wrote:

 defects. The real problem will be with the other ones, those 
 who will decide to stay. Some by innocent cruelty, others by 
 sheer curiosity.


Actually, yes. I do think getting aiming for more demanding users 
at this point is a problem as I want to see breaking changes 
implemented.

I don't think having a large user base of programmers is an 
advantage, as that will lead to protests against changes and 
improvements that could make D a real contender.
Feb 04 2016
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 02/03/2016 02:06 AM, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was but it
 sure will be great for its image.


Thanks for the info. Probably not worth posting to reddit, but I did 
post it on FB and Twitter:

https://facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/1220250531321959

https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/694948280858492928


Andrei
Feb 03 2016
parent reply yawniek <dlang srtnwz.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:36:35 UTC, Andrei 
Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 02/03/2016 02:06 AM, cym13 wrote:

 It's all true, D rose up 6 positions:
 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 I don't quite know what the leading factor for that change was 
 but it
 sure will be great for its image.


 Thanks for the info. Probably not worth posting to reddit, but 
 I did post it on FB and Twitter:

 https://facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/1220250531321959

 https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/694948280858492928


 Andrei


i hate to spoil the party but:
http://donnemartin.com/viz/pages/2015
Feb 03 2016
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 02/03/2016 01:40 PM, yawniek wrote:

 i hate to spoil the party


What party? -- Andrei
Feb 03 2016
prev sibling parent cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 18:40:30 UTC, yawniek wrote:

 i hate to spoil the party but:
 http://donnemartin.com/viz/pages/2015


What is that supposed to mean? This tool doesn't even track D, 
how could it show any meaningful comparison with other languages?
Feb 03 2016