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digitalmars.D - SteamOS, games programming, and D

reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
Hello all,

So, what with the new SteamOS/SteamBox announcement ...

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/
http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

... is this a serious opportunity for D to start carving out space in the games 
industry?  What issues need to be addressed for D to be a superb games 
development tool for Linux?

Best wishes,

     -- Joe
Sep 27 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 14:43:06 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:

 Hello all,

 So, what with the new SteamOS/SteamBox announcement ...

 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/
 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

 ... is this a serious opportunity for D to start carving out 
 space in the games industry?  What issues need to be addressed 
 for D to be a superb games development tool for Linux?

 Best wishes,

     -- Joe


Sounds more like a serious opportunity for D to get a good 
debugger :D

I doubt that core D issues for game dev are much different in 
Linux than in Windows.
Sep 27 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 27.09.2013 16:43, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

 Hello all,

 So, what with the new SteamOS/SteamBox announcement ...

 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/
 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

 ... is this a serious opportunity for D to start carving out space in
 the games industry?  What issues need to be addressed for D to be a
 superb games development tool for Linux?

 Best wishes,

      -- Joe


Be better than Unity.
Sep 27 2013
parent reply Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 27/09/13 17:27, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 Be better than Unity.


I take it you mean Unity3D the game engine, and not Unity the desktop 
environment <stirs the evil pot ... /> :-P
Sep 27 2013
parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 15:36:28 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:

 On 27/09/13 17:27, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 Be better than Unity.


 I take it you mean Unity3D the game engine, and not Unity the 
 desktop environment <stirs the evil pot ... /> :-P


Being better than the first one is a real challenge. Being better 
than the second one really isn't :D
Sep 28 2013
parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 28.09.2013 15:22, schrieb deadalnix:

 On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 15:36:28 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
 wrote:

 On 27/09/13 17:27, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 Be better than Unity.


 I take it you mean Unity3D the game engine, and not Unity the desktop
 environment <stirs the evil pot ... /> :-P


 Being better than the first one is a real challenge. Being better than
 the second one really isn't :D


Actually the second one is my default GUI when I am on Ubuntu.

I think I used most window managers and desktop environments in UNIX 
land since twm.

Nowadays I no longer have the patient to play with them, just use 
whatever is the default one. As long as I can get my applications,
I am alright.

--
Paulo
Sep 28 2013
parent reply "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On Saturday, 28 September 2013 at 13:27:16 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 Am 28.09.2013 15:22, schrieb deadalnix:

 On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 15:36:28 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
 Wakeling
 wrote:

 On 27/09/13 17:27, Paulo Pinto wrote:

 Be better than Unity.


 I take it you mean Unity3D the game engine, and not Unity the 
 desktop
 environment <stirs the evil pot ... /> :-P


 Being better than the first one is a real challenge. Being 
 better than
 the second one really isn't :D


 Actually the second one is my default GUI when I am on Ubuntu.


You're missing a bit of history here.  Deadalnix is The Only 
Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Gnome 3.0.  I am The 
Only Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Unity.  
Therefore, since we discovered this, it is essential for the 
health and well-being of humanity that we keep joshing each other 
about it. ;-)
Sep 29 2013
parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Sunday, 29 September 2013 at 18:48:52 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:

 You're missing a bit of history here.  Deadalnix is The Only 
 Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Gnome 3.0.  I am The 
 Only Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Unity.


He is not alone ;)
Sep 29 2013
parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, September 29, 2013 21:02:33 Dicebot wrote:

 On Sunday, 29 September 2013 at 18:48:52 UTC, Joseph Rushton
 
 Wakeling wrote:

 You're missing a bit of history here.  Deadalnix is The Only
 Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Gnome 3.0.  I am The
 Only Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Unity.


 
 He is not alone ;)


Well, there _are_ the lunatics who developed it... ;)

- Jonathan M Davis
Sep 29 2013
parent reply "evilrat" <evilrat666 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 30 September 2013 at 04:40:41 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:

 On Sunday, September 29, 2013 21:02:33 Dicebot wrote:

 On Sunday, 29 September 2013 at 18:48:52 UTC, Joseph Rushton
 
 Wakeling wrote:

 You're missing a bit of history here.  Deadalnix is The Only
 Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Gnome 3.0.  I am 
 The
 Only Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Unity.


 
 He is not alone ;)


 Well, there _are_ the lunatics who developed it... ;)

 - Jonathan M Davis


but what if it's just someone's perverted joke to torture 
people... O_o
Sep 29 2013
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:46:31 +0200
"evilrat" <evilrat666 gmail.com> wrote:


 On Monday, 30 September 2013 at 04:40:41 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
 wrote:

 On Sunday, September 29, 2013 21:02:33 Dicebot wrote:

 On Sunday, 29 September 2013 at 18:48:52 UTC, Joseph Rushton
 
 Wakeling wrote:

 You're missing a bit of history here.  Deadalnix is The Only
 Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Gnome 3.0.  I am 
 The
 Only Person In The Universe Who Genuinely Likes Unity.


 
 He is not alone ;)


 Well, there _are_ the lunatics who developed it... ;)

 - Jonathan M Davis


 
 but what if it's just someone's perverted joke to torture 
 people... O_o


Nah, that's Win8 ;)
Sep 29 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "evilrat" <evilrat666 gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 14:43:06 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
Wakeling wrote:

 Hello all,

 So, what with the new SteamOS/SteamBox announcement ...

 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/
 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

 ... is this a serious opportunity for D to start carving out 
 space in the games industry?  What issues need to be addressed 
 for D to be a superb games development tool for Linux?

 Best wishes,

     -- Joe


what serious game engine could go without dynamic libs? add to 
this existing tools(debuggers/IDE's) problems and you already 
where you started, no one would bother doing something real for 
full time...

that is the sad truth about current D state.
Sep 27 2013
parent reply "Kapps" <opantm2+spam gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 15:50:48 UTC, evilrat wrote:

 On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 14:43:06 UTC, Joseph Rushton 
 Wakeling wrote:

 Hello all,

 So, what with the new SteamOS/SteamBox announcement ...

 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/
 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

 ... is this a serious opportunity for D to start carving out 
 space in the games industry?  What issues need to be addressed 
 for D to be a superb games development tool for Linux?

 Best wishes,

    -- Joe


 what serious game engine could go without dynamic libs? add to 
 this existing tools(debuggers/IDE's) problems and you already 
 where you started, no one would bother doing something real for 
 full time...

 that is the sad truth about current D state.


The next version of DMD will support dynamic loading of C / D 
libraries on Linux I believe.
Sep 27 2013
parent reply Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
Am 27.09.2013 18:02, schrieb Kapps:

 On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 15:50:48 UTC, evilrat wrote:

 On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 14:43:06 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
 wrote:

 Hello all,

 So, what with the new SteamOS/SteamBox announcement ...

 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/
 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

 ... is this a serious opportunity for D to start carving out space in
 the games industry?  What issues need to be addressed for D to be a
 superb games development tool for Linux?

 Best wishes,

    -- Joe


 what serious game engine could go without dynamic libs? add to this
 existing tools(debuggers/IDE's) problems and you already where you
 started, no one would bother doing something real for full time...

 that is the sad truth about current D state.


 The next version of DMD will support dynamic loading of C / D libraries
 on Linux I believe.


I was being a bit polemic on purpose when I referred Unity, but the 


Unity with all this cool stuff,
http://unity3d.com/unite/archive/2013

PS Vita Suite, 
http://develop.scee.net/files/presentations/jordan2012/2012-Jordan%20Game%20Summit-PlayStation%20Mobile.pdf

Here in Germany, quite a few indie studios are already making heavy use 

Games German magazine.

--
Paulo
Sep 27 2013
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Klaim_=2D_Jo=C3=ABl_Lamotte?= <mjklaim gmail.com> writes:
A Unity-like or D implementation of Unity would be cool but really D on
SteamOS needs 2 things:

 1. stable engines for each part of a game-specific engine: I'm making a
game right now that really can't be developped using Unity without totally
fightining it
     so I use a combination of Ogre, RakNet etc. If I had a choice of
composition of libraries to setup my game in D, I would have tried D. (even
if the gc scares me frankly)
 2. SteamWorks API compatibility: it's required for Steam, if I understand
correctly, so you'll need to make sure it's possible to use SteamWorks
library from D. I think it's all C but not sure.
Sep 27 2013
next sibling parent "Jakob Ovrum" <jakobovrum gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 23:56:00 UTC, Klaim - Joël 
Lamotte wrote:

  2. SteamWorks API compatibility: it's required for Steam, if I 
 understand
 correctly, so you'll need to make sure it's possible to use 
 SteamWorks
 library from D. I think it's all C but not sure.


SteamWorks and the Source SDK both mostly consist of pure virtual 
interfaces, implementations of which can be fetched through C 
factory functions. Even with D's currently limited C++ 
interoperability features, these APIs are remarkably bindable.
Sep 27 2013
prev sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On 9/28/2013 8:55 AM, Klaim - Joël Lamotte wrote:

   2. SteamWorks API compatibility: it's required for Steam, if I
 understand correctly, so you'll need to make sure it's possible to use
 SteamWorks library from D. I think it's all C but not sure.


There's already been one D game released on Steam that IIRC bound the 
SteamWorks library without issue. And that was in D1.
Sep 27 2013
prev sibling parent reply Benjamin Thaut <code benjamin-thaut.de> writes:
Am 27.09.2013 16:43, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

 Hello all,

 So, what with the new SteamOS/SteamBox announcement ...

 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/
 http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

 ... is this a serious opportunity for D to start carving out space in
 the games industry?  What issues need to be addressed for D to be a
 superb games development tool for Linux?

 Best wishes,

      -- Joe


Really good and easy to setup C++ interoperability.
I recently brought up D at the company I work at (Havok) and basically 
the response was:

Looks really nice but as everyone else is using C++ we won't start using 
D unless other people are already using D. So to get things started 
teams that want to use D need a easy way to use existing C++ engines and 
libraries.

Also a graphical debugger is usually the base requirement for gamedev.

Kind Regards
Benjamin Thaut
Sep 28 2013
parent reply "evilrat" <evilrat666 gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 28 September 2013 at 08:25:22 UTC, Benjamin Thaut 
wrote:

 Am 27.09.2013 16:43, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

 Also a graphical debugger is usually the base requirement for 
 gamedev.

 Kind Regards
 Benjamin Thaut


u mean debugger with GUI or just directx/opengl debugger? for 
second one can use any existing ones, all works fine with D. as 
for GUI debugger, IMHO the best one is visuald plugin.
Sep 28 2013
next sibling parent "Froglegs" <barf barf.com> writes:
1. Easy C++ interop(don't want to write C wrappers)
2. An awesome IDE(visual D is not there yet) comparable to Visual 
C++ w/ Visual Assist
3. none buggy language implementation
4. Easy to disable GC without breaking everything
Sep 28 2013
prev sibling parent reply Benjamin Thaut <code benjamin-thaut.de> writes:
Am 28.09.2013 12:06, schrieb evilrat:

 On Saturday, 28 September 2013 at 08:25:22 UTC, Benjamin Thaut wrote:

 Am 27.09.2013 16:43, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

 Also a graphical debugger is usually the base requirement for gamedev.

 Kind Regards
 Benjamin Thaut


 u mean debugger with GUI or just directx/opengl debugger? for second one
 can use any existing ones, all works fine with D. as for GUI debugger,
 IMHO the best one is visuald plugin.


Graphical debugger means something like the visual studio debugger. I 
use VisualD but it is not quite there yet. There a still numerous issues 
left where the debugger doesn't work / displays wrong values etc.

DirectX/OpenGL debuggers are usually external tools, so this is not an 
issue.

-- 
Kind Regards
Benjamin Thaut
Sep 28 2013
parent Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On 29 September 2013 01:20, Benjamin Thaut <code benjamin-thaut.de> wrote:


 Am 28.09.2013 12:06, schrieb evilrat:

  On Saturday, 28 September 2013 at 08:25:22 UTC, Benjamin Thaut wrote:

 Am 27.09.2013 16:43, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

 Also a graphical debugger is usually the base requirement for gamedev.

 Kind Regards
 Benjamin Thaut


 u mean debugger with GUI or just directx/opengl debugger? for second one
 can use any existing ones, all works fine with D. as for GUI debugger,
 IMHO the best one is visuald plugin.


 Graphical debugger means something like the visual studio debugger. I use
 VisualD but it is not quite there yet. There a still numerous issues left
 where the debugger doesn't work / displays wrong values etc.

 DirectX/OpenGL debuggers are usually external tools, so this is not an
 issue.



I've had gDebugger working on Linux, and it works fairly well.
It's not quite PIX, but it's definitely useful. It doesn't seem to have
shader debugging, but it does have a feature where you can edit the shader
at runtime and see it's effect immediately, and you can use that to help
isolate shader bugs.
Sep 29 2013