www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D - Spotted on twitter: Rust user enthusiastically blogs about moving to D

reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/
Mar 06 2017
next sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/


"A much much safer language than C++ while being much more 
programmer-friendly than Rust."

Nice quote. :)

I somewhat wonder about "Arrays (arguably the most important data 
structure) are actually sane, consistent, and very much logically 
intuitive in D unlike the mess that’s C (and C++)." At some 
points, people get bitten by the determinism issue [0]. Probably, 
z0ltan was lucky so far. Nevertheless, arrays/slices are the way 
they are for good reasons.

[0] https://dlang.org/d-array-article.html
Mar 07 2017
next sibling parent XavierAP <n3minis-git yahoo.es> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 09:54:36 UTC, qznc wrote:

 I somewhat wonder about "Arrays (arguably the most important 
 data structure) are actually sane, consistent, and very much 
 logically intuitive in D unlike the mess that’s C (and C++)." 
 At some points, people get bitten by the determinism issue


On the contrary, he does mention D's safety and memory management 
different from Rust, C and C++ as a good point for him actually.

Every thread ends up in the same discussion :p and is GC really 
so bad in all and every case?
Mar 07 2017
prev sibling parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 09:54:36 UTC, qznc wrote:


 I somewhat wonder about "Arrays (arguably the most important 
 data structure) are actually sane, consistent, and very much 
 logically intuitive in D unlike the mess that’s C (and C++)." 
 At some points, people get bitten by the determinism issue [0]. 
 Probably, z0ltan was lucky so far. Nevertheless, arrays/slices 
 are the way they are for good reasons.

 [0] https://dlang.org/d-array-article.html


D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even 
accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why 
this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But 
then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I 
don't understand how it matters.
Mar 07 2017
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even 
 accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood 
 why this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. 
 But then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe 
 I don't understand how it matters.


It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a 
hacky scripting language. No ifs or buts.
Mar 07 2017
next sibling parent reply Meta <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:52:23 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even 
 accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood 
 why this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd 
 expect. But then I don't program in a way that it's relevant, 
 so maybe I don't understand how it matters.


 It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a 
 hacky scripting language. No ifs or buts.


What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping 
protection stuff?
Mar 07 2017
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:59:28 UTC, Meta wrote:

 What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping 
 protection stuff?


Lack of static guarantees on the underlying array buffer.
Mar 07 2017
parent reply Guillaume Piolat <first.last gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:19:47 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:59:28 UTC, Meta wrote:

 What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping 
 protection stuff?


 Lack of static guarantees on the underlying array buffer.


Like with pointers, ownership doesn't have to be encoded in the 
type this way.
Mar 07 2017
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:49:15 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:19:47 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 17:59:28 UTC, Meta wrote:

 What exactly are we talking about here? The array stomping 
 protection stuff?


 Lack of static guarantees on the underlying array buffer.


 Like with pointers, ownership doesn't have to be encoded in the 
 type this way.


One can always work around misguided high level features with 
abstractions, but it doesn't scale well when features that lead 
to inconsistency is part of the core language. But in comparison 
to Go one does at least have the ability to abstract.

I still find it odd that people downplay the value of static 
guarantees in the core language. I am likewise puzzled by the 
dynamic choices in Golang, but to their credit they decided to 
focus on evolving the runtime.

I think Rust made a lot of the right choices, except they didn't 
go far enough to fully reap the benefits.
Mar 07 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 05:52:23PM +0000, Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even
 accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why
 this behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But then
 I don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I don't
 understand how it matters.


 
 It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a hacky
 scripting language. No ifs or buts.


That's an opinion.

Like bachmeier, I have found D arrays (well, slices) to be exactly how I
expect arrays to work. The "determinism issue" is really only a problem
in exceptional cases where you probably should be using a custom type
instead. Or in cases where you're worried about performance and
therefore have to understand the nitty-gritty of exactly how slices work
in all possible cases -- something that you already have to learn in the
first place, if performance is a concern.  I love D arrays, warts and
all.


T

-- 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand
Russell. "How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" -- Anonymous
Mar 07 2017
parent reply bachmeier <no spam.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 18:06:05 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:


 Like bachmeier, I have found D arrays (well, slices) to be 
 exactly how I expect arrays to work. The "determinism issue" is 
 really only a problem in exceptional cases where you probably 
 should be using a custom type instead. Or in cases where you're 
 worried about performance and therefore have to understand the 
 nitty-gritty of exactly how slices work in all possible cases 
 -- something that you already have to learn in the first place, 
 if performance is a concern.  I love D arrays, warts and all.


Yep. If you want to give someone enough rope to get maximum 
performance, you have to give them enough rope to shoot 
themselves in the foot. Once you've moved into this territory, 
you've made a decision to throw away safety and convenience in 
the name of performance, and you better understand what you're 
doing.
Mar 07 2017
parent reply thedeemon <dlang thedeemon.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:09:11 UTC, bachmeier wrote:


 Yep. If you want to give someone enough rope to get maximum 
 performance, you have to give them enough rope to shoot 
 themselves in the foot. Once you've moved into this territory, 
 you've made a decision to throw away safety and convenience in 
 the name of performance, and you better understand what you're 
 doing.


I think ATS language is a contradiction here, it combines max 

than C) with static guarantees Rust folks could only dream about. 
But the price you pay is amount of intellectual efforts (and 
time, a lot of time!) to write any non-trivial program.
Mar 07 2017
parent Yuxuan Shui <yshuiv7 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 04:56:55 UTC, thedeemon wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:09:11 UTC, bachmeier wrote:


 Yep. If you want to give someone enough rope to get maximum 
 performance, you have to give them enough rope to shoot 
 themselves in the foot. Once you've moved into this territory, 
 you've made a decision to throw away safety and convenience in 
 the name of performance, and you better understand what you're 
 doing.


 I think ATS language is a contradiction here, it combines max 

 than C) with static guarantees Rust folks could only dream 
 about. But the price you pay is amount of intellectual efforts 
 (and time, a lot of time!) to write any non-trivial program.


Performance, Safety and Productivity. You can only choose two.
Mar 08 2017
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/07/2017 12:52 PM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 12:53:42 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 D's arrays are sane, consistent, and logically intuitive even
 accounting for the "determinism issue". I've never understood why this
 behavior is surprising - it's exactly what I'd expect. But then I
 don't program in a way that it's relevant, so maybe I don't understand
 how it matters.


 It is horrible. It is something you only would expect from a hacky
 scripting language. No ifs or buts.


I found it horribly scary at first myself, but what surprised me is that 
in all the years I've used D, I've never hit an problem resulting from 
that, not even once.

I admit I can't even begin to explain *why* it's never turned out to be 
a problem for me though. (And now, *that* is the part that bothers me a 
little.)

Filed, in my brain at least, under "Strange but True".
Mar 07 2017
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 20:44:26 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
(Abscissa) wrote:

 I found it horribly scary at first myself, but what surprised 
 me is that in all the years I've used D, I've never hit an 
 problem resulting from that, not even once.


Just wait till you use a library that added a sentinel at the end 
of it temporarily...
Mar 07 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Wyatt <wyatt.epp gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/


I like the bit in the comments where he says this:

"It doesn’t have to be idiomatic to work just fine, which is 
relaxing."

People often don't get how nice this is.

-Wyatt
Mar 07 2017
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 16:18:15 UTC, Wyatt wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/


 I like the bit in the comments where he says this:

 "It doesn’t have to be idiomatic to work just fine, which is 
 relaxing."

 People often don't get how nice this is.

 -Wyatt


"Beautiful! The code probably deserves a bit of explanation – in 
D, functions are (as far as I can tell), first-class objects"

Maybe they should be...
Mar 08 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/


This reenforces my estimation that the most persuasive feature of 
any language is the ability to get shit done. That's not a 
positive value judgement on that focus however. The argument 
probably should side on the ability to make safe/correct programs 
_while also_ creating them quickly.


Very welcoming and helpful community that actually focuses
on the technical side of things rather than getting sidetracked 
by social causes


I've seen this mentioned serval times now by people coming from 
Rust.

Rust users: Is the PC/politicking really that pervasive in their 
community?
Mar 07 2017
next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/07/2017 02:07 PM, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 I've seen this mentioned serval times now by people coming from Rust.

 Rust users: Is the PC/politicking really that pervasive in their community?


That surprised me too. My impression is that us D community folks 
chastise ourselves plenty for conversations constantly veering off the 
technical path! Was a pleasant surprise to read a new user say "nah, 
that's really not so bad in D". Who know? :)
Mar 07 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:07:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 I've seen this mentioned serval times now by people coming from 
 Rust.

 Rust users: Is the PC/politicking really that pervasive in 
 their community?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg

Lot of good stuff in there, but, if you know how to read between 
the lines, all you need to know about the PC/politicking as well.
Mar 08 2017
parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 Lot of good stuff in there, but, if you know how to read 
 between the lines, all you need to know about the 
 PC/politicking as well.


Oh, you and I travel in the same circles (*those* subreddits), I 
think I can id PC when I see it ;).


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg


If anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I 
would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 7:00 
mark.

Also, It's quite telling about the ideology of the rust devs that 
something as mundane as testing automation was framed/explained 
in an us vs. them narrative.

Also, their test suite apparently takes HOURS, wtf.
Mar 08 2017
next sibling parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 21:25:41 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 Oh, you and I travel in the same circles (*those* subreddits), 
 I think I can id PC when I see it ;).


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg


 If anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I 
 would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 7:00 
 mark.


 From the video:

"Why do people keep getting into conflicts? And the answer you 
find, if you keep asking why enough is diversity. People have 
diverse viewpoints on what you should be doing, and that's 
basically the root cause of all disagreement."

All there is left to say is Rust in Peace.
Mar 08 2017
prev sibling parent reply XavierAP <n3minis-git yahoo.es> writes:
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 21:25:41 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg


 If anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I 
 would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 7:00 
 mark.


LOL these kids could use some experience writing C for Linus 
Torvalds

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/
Mar 08 2017
parent reply realdonaldtrump <down2now yahoo.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 22:43:49 UTC, XavierAP wrote:

 On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 21:25:41 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 at 20:21:24 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg


 If anyone wanted a manual on "How to Build an Echo-Chamber", I 
 would advise you to watch this video starting at about the 
 7:00 mark.


 LOL these kids could use some experience writing C for Linus 
 Torvalds

 https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/


The political correctness is one of the major things wrong with 
both Rust and this country.  I am glad D community doesn't engage 
in this Snowflake BS.  Thats one of the big +'s for D.  I'll stay 
away from Rust and other Snowflake ran projects.
Mar 08 2017
parent sarn <sarn theartofmachinery.com> writes:
PSA: please don't feed the trolls.
Mar 08 2017
prev sibling parent Chris <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 19:07:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/


 This reenforces my estimation that the most persuasive feature 
 of any language is the ability to get shit done. That's not a 
 positive value judgement on that focus however. The argument 
 probably should side on the ability to make safe/correct 
 programs _while also_ creating them quickly.


That's the beauty of D. You can get shit done in an elegant and 
pragmatic way. The only downside is that one is tempted to spend 
too much time on making it even more elegant, but if you're 
pressed for time you can always come back later. It's only when I 
deal with other languages that I realize how many nice little 
features D has that make things so much easier. Features that are 
easy to use and produce cleaner, more compact code.
Mar 08 2017
prev sibling parent reply Soulsbane <paul acheronsoft.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 03:04:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/goodbye-rust-and-hello-d/


Very welcoming and helpful community that actually focuses on the 
technical side of things rather than getting sidetracked by 
social causes

What does he mean by sidetracked by social causes? I've seen this 
mentioned before. Is this a big thing in the Rust community?
Mar 07 2017
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/07/2017 11:33 AM, Soulsbane wrote:


 What does he mean by sidetracked by social causes? I've seen this
 mentioned before. Is this a big thing in the Rust community?


The author had opened the following thread:

   http://forum.dlang.org/post/dvmsnoxvdbmraisocpyt forum.dlang.org

   "community seems infused with both the Feminism/SJW"

Ali
Mar 07 2017
parent Soulsbane <paul acheronsoft.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 at 20:47:12 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 03/07/2017 11:33 AM, Soulsbane wrote:


 What does he mean by sidetracked by social causes? I've seen 
 this
 mentioned before. Is this a big thing in the Rust community?


 The author had opened the following thread:

   
 http://forum.dlang.org/post/dvmsnoxvdbmraisocpyt forum.dlang.org

   "community seems infused with both the Feminism/SJW"

 Ali


Ah, thanks for the link Ali!
Mar 07 2017