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digitalmars.D - Solution to problems:

reply "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
If D had an ide that could do the following I think development 
and testing could be better managed.

1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to change 
D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and it 
checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads it, 
configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it 
requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)

2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through 
this IDE. Collaboration can be made between groups of people and 
individuals. Announcements could be made by head honchos. (In 
fact, this software could be more generic and used by anyone for 
any purpose of collaboration in programming... e.g. with php).

One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.

3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being 
able to "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging 
help or whatever).

4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a 
note over a function that links to the D documentation about a 
bug.

5. etc.

If such an IDE existed so that anyone could simply run it, open a 
"bug" and start working without having to go through a massive 
change(by quick, I mean click of a button), then I think people 
would be more willing to help.


The number one reason I don't contribute is that I don't have the 
time to dedicate to maintain all the knowledge and 
software/organization to fit it in my schedule.

I suspect that is most everyone excuse too.


I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest 
version, compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration 
stuff is correct, create a setup program... just to find out 
there is a bug in the latest version at the end.

I'm simply not that dedicated to D. Again, I suspect most people 
aren't. You have really dedicated people here but not enough to 
get everything that needs to be done, done.

Instead, find out how to leverage all the people that would help 
if you make it worth their time.

It might be slower in the short term but better in the long term. 
  In 10 more years I doubt Andrei or Walter will have as much 
energy to do all the work that they are doing... Better build the 
infrastructure now while there is time.
Mar 23 2015
next sibling parent "lobo" <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 If D had an ide that could do the following I think development 
 and testing could be better managed.

 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to 
 change D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and 
 it checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads 
 it, configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it 
 requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)

 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through 
 this IDE. Collaboration can be made between groups of people 
 and individuals. Announcements could be made by head honchos. 
 (In fact, this software could be more generic and used by 
 anyone for any purpose of collaboration in programming... e.g. 
 with php).

 One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.

 3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being 
 able to "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging 
 help or whatever).

 4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a 
 note over a function that links to the D documentation about a 
 bug.

 5. etc.

 If such an IDE existed so that anyone could simply run it, open 
 a "bug" and start working without having to go through a 
 massive change(by quick, I mean click of a button), then I 
 think people would be more willing to help.


 The number one reason I don't contribute is that I don't have 
 the time to dedicate to maintain all the knowledge and 
 software/organization to fit it in my schedule.

 I suspect that is most everyone excuse too.


 I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest 
 version, compile it if I have to, make sure all the 
 configuration stuff is correct, create a setup program... just 
 to find out there is a bug in the latest version at the end.

 I'm simply not that dedicated to D. Again, I suspect most 
 people aren't. You have really dedicated people here but not 
 enough to get everything that needs to be done, done.

 Instead, find out how to leverage all the people that would 
 help if you make it worth their time.

 It might be slower in the short term but better in the long 
 term.
  In 10 more years I doubt Andrei or Walter will have as much 
 energy to do all the work that they are doing... Better build 
 the infrastructure now while there is time.


VCS (Git in this case) and Make are tools of the trade. If a 
developer cannot use these tools following instructions provided 
in the Wiki [1] they probably won't have much in the way of 
useful contributions to Phobos or the compiler.

Bye,
lobo

[1] http://wiki.dlang.org/Pull_Requests
Mar 23 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:34:08 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest version,
 compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration stuff is
 correct, create a setup program... just to find out there is a bug in
 the latest version at the end.


there is a brilliant invention here that helps with exactly this. it is=20
called "scripting". i spent, you know, something like a hour more than=20
year ago, and now i can build DMD in 2 minutes (this is the limit of my=20
box, it can't compile code faster than that), update it in less than a=20
minute (this is limited by internet connection) and so on.

there is life beyond IDEs. no, really, i'm not joking!=
Mar 23 2015
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/23/2015 08:18 PM, ketmar wrote:

 On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:34:08 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest version,
 compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration stuff is
 correct, create a setup program... just to find out there is a bug in
 the latest version at the end.


 there is a brilliant invention here that helps with exactly this. it is
 called "scripting". i spent, you know, something like a hour more than
 year ago, and now i can build DMD in 2 minutes (this is the limit of my
 box, it can't compile code faster than that), update it in less than a
 minute (this is limited by internet connection) and so on.


Already exists:
https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm

$ dvm install 2.066.1
$ dvm install 2.067.0-b2
$ dvm use 2.066.1
$ dmd | grep DMD
DMD64 D Compiler v2.066.1
$ dvm use 2.067.0-b2
$ dmd | grep DMD
DMD64 D Compiler v2.067.0-b2


 there is life beyond IDEs. no, really, i'm not joking!


Indeed! After all, a programmer's whole job is to write commands and 
automate tasks anyway.
Mar 24 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 ...


most of this is already available in the form of tools(i.e, git, 
digger, etc)

you might want to talk to the dev of deadcode, dlangide, coedit, 
etc and see if any of them are interested in implementing these 
directly into their IDEs.
Mar 23 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "tcak" <tcak gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 If D had an ide that could do the following I think development 
 and testing could be better managed.

 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to 
 change D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and 
 it checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads 
 it, configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it 
 requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)

 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through 
 this IDE. Collaboration can be made between groups of people 
 and individuals. Announcements could be made by head honchos. 
 (In fact, this software could be more generic and used by 
 anyone for any purpose of collaboration in programming... e.g. 
 with php).

 One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.

 3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being 
 able to "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging 
 help or whatever).

 4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a 
 note over a function that links to the D documentation about a 
 bug.

 5. etc.

 If such an IDE existed so that anyone could simply run it, open 
 a "bug" and start working without having to go through a 
 massive change(by quick, I mean click of a button), then I 
 think people would be more willing to help.


 The number one reason I don't contribute is that I don't have 
 the time to dedicate to maintain all the knowledge and 
 software/organization to fit it in my schedule.

 I suspect that is most everyone excuse too.


 I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest 
 version, compile it if I have to, make sure all the 
 configuration stuff is correct, create a setup program... just 
 to find out there is a bug in the latest version at the end.

 I'm simply not that dedicated to D. Again, I suspect most 
 people aren't. You have really dedicated people here but not 
 enough to get everything that needs to be done, done.

 Instead, find out how to leverage all the people that would 
 help if you make it worth their time.

 It might be slower in the short term but better in the long 
 term.
  In 10 more years I doubt Andrei or Walter will have as much 
 energy to do all the work that they are doing... Better build 
 the infrastructure now while there is time.


Well, you know what? Everybody wants that kind of stuff. Some 
says I wish there was a way to do that in that way. Another wants 
for another thing. That's the reason people those do business (or 
just wealthy), go and pay people to prepare whatever they want 
and like.

Unfortunately, what we have is, like how open source projects are 
built, many single tools those CAN be connected each other very 
well, but separate from each other.

You know what they say: Linux CAN do that as well. Well, if you 
go to there, spend time and money, and give effort, then that's 
true only. You can theme Linux however you want. But, non of them 
looks as great as OS X.
Mar 24 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "rumbu" <rumbu rumbu.ro> writes:
On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 If D had an ide that could do the following I think development 
 and testing could be better managed.


...

Basically you want something like Nuget in Visual Studio: 
https://www.nuget.org/

There is something similar for D called "dub", but it's not 
integrated in Visual Studio - http://code.dlang.org/

Also, there is already an enhancement request for that: 
https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11641 on which you can 
vote.
Mar 24 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to 
 change D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and 
 it checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads 
 it, configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it 
 requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)

 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through 
 this IDE.


Digger can build and install any D version in combination with 
any GitHub fork or pull request:

https://github.com/CyberShadow/Digger

It even has a web interface, if you're allergic to command lines.
Mar 24 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
You guys are complete ignoring 90% of the post. It is not just 
about configuration.


1. Whatever you claim to be easy is irrelevant. Just because X 
can be done by you. If you want "Me" to do X it better be easy, 
else I'm not going to waste my time.

Just because you can write 10 lines of script to download and 
install the latest D is irrelevant. There is much more to it(how 
long did it take you to figure out how to do that? 10 hours to 
find the proper post? 40 hours to get everything setup?)

It's very easy to pick and choose... but it is irrelevant in this 
discussion.


2. There is also the collaboration effect that was completely 
ignored by the posters.

I know, many are simply going to say that it's just as easy to 
open up a browser and get over to Git for the D forums... again, 
irrelevant.


----

This isn't about what can already be done. We already have a D 
compiler, people can already download different versions, submit 
patches, run scripts, create scripts on the comp to manage some 
of the things, etc...

What you guys not seeing is that all this stuff is a huge 
F Sf'ing mess from people on the outside.

Sure, you think your bedroom is clean... but your idea of clean 
is vastly different from mine. If you want me to help you clean 
my room then you better make it easy on me. I'm not going to pick 
up your dirty underwear no matter how much you tell me it isn't a 
big deal.


The point is, every post has been from the perspective of those 
already involved in D... That's great! But what good does that do 
to increase the numbers involved.

How many posts have been made in the last 6 months of people 
saying that like D but don't use it for various issues? (issues 
that many of you claim are irrelevant)


I know that the mentality of "We already have bicycles... why do 
we need this thing you call a 'car'... seems very bulky and you 
have to put that stuff you call gas in it... I guess I have to 
buy that from you too?"...

Yet everyone uses cars... and if cars could fly and were cheap 
enough, everyone would use those too... even the ones that now 
say that flying cars are a waste.

When you have such problems with your eyes you have myopia. When 
you have similar problems with seeing that your not the only one 
that matters, it's called arrogance. With such arrogance, D will 
not grow.

Food For Thought: If Walter and Andrei get vaporized by aliens 
tomorrow, how many of you will not mind that D will be dead? What 
about all the hours you guys have put into "scripting", figuring 
out how dub works, and all that mess will be happy at moving into 
a new direction in life?

Well, from my perspective that is what is going to happen if 
things don't change. D is progressing too slow with too few 
supporters to get anywhere.

If all you hard core D supporters are ok with that, then fine! I 
have no problem with it then. But since I believe D is the best 
programming language(even with all its faults), I think it would 
be a tragedy for it to fade away so quickly. [e.g., Kids learning 
to program should be able to start with D in a nice environment 
just like I did with pascal... I remember it compiling so quick 
and never having any issues]

My feeling is that there are just a handful of hard core 
supporters trying to get D up and running(fixing bugs, expanding 
language, etc) but I think this is in vain if in 10 years no one 
uses it. (I guess progress though....)


Remember, marking is a huge deal in movies[etc], there is a 
reason for it! And if you had to input some script into your 
remote just to watch a show on TV, I think you either: A. Would 
get used to it and think it is natural, easy, and quick and 
everyone else should stop bitching. B. Buy a TV that was easier 
to use.

We have a gap between A and B and no one is willing to 
compromise.. But B is the market. This means A is either left to 
holding it's guns(sort of arrogance) or has to do the 
compromising. The B group(the ignorant group) simply do not have 
the desire to jump in with the A's. Time and money matter to some 
people more than others.

Also, having a central "Command" is always important for 
productive and efficiency. Do you think NASA could do what it 
does if it was spread out among hundred different people all 
handling tasks as they wish. You launch the space shuttle but 
little Joey, who was suppose to monitor the fly path and check 
for anomalies was forced to sit at the table and finish his 
spaghetti by his mother... Now the shuttle is sitting at the 
bottom of the ocean.

It's up to you guys.

The only think I can say is: I simply will not contribute to 
D(even though I think it is the best language) until it becomes 
worth my time(easier to manage all the stuff that needs to be 
managed). If you don't want to work with that and accept it then 
so be it. No big deal for me. I have other things to do(which is 
why I am not like you).

It would be nice if I was the only one like me, but if you 
believe that then I guess D has no hope anyways.

Regardless, I'll be back in another year to see what progress has 
been made. Good luck. I really do hope you guys can get your shit 
together and make D the top language! I'd like to actually use it 
for serious stuff one of these days(hopefully before my hair 
turns gray)
Mar 24 2015
next sibling parent reply "CraigDillabaugh" <craig.dillabaugh gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:13:07 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 You guys are complete ignoring 90% of the post. It is not just 
 about configuration.


clip

 Regardless, I'll be back in another year to see what progress 
 has been made. Good luck. I really do hope you guys can get 
 your shit together and make D the top language! I'd like to 
 actually use it for serious stuff one of these days(hopefully 
 before my hair turns gray)


Just curious to know which major open source programming 
languages support the sort of development environment you are 
suggesting for their core language/libraries.  I just checked 
Python (the most popular Open Source language of all)  and they 
use ./config make  and hg for version control .. seems pretty 
bare bones to me.

While I am sure what you are proposing would be nice, if a 
massive community like Python doesn't have time/resources to 
create such a thing, how do you propose a small community like D 
go about this?

Perhaps this is a project you could take on.

For the record, for someone to be a developer for a programming 
language, I don't think expecting them to understand the build 
system is really an issue. In fact I would feel more comfortable 
with such people contributing.
Mar 24 2015
parent "rumbu" <rumbu rumbu.ro> writes:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:44:55 UTC, CraigDillabaugh wrote:


 Just curious to know which major open source programming 
 languages support the sort of development environment you are 
 suggesting for their core language/libraries.  I just checked 
 Python (the most popular Open Source language of all)  and they 
 use ./config make  and hg for version control .. seems pretty 
 bare bones to me.


https://github.com/dotnet
Mar 26 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "CraigDillabaugh" <craig.dillabaugh gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:13:07 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 You guys are complete ignoring 90% of the post. It is not just 
 about configuration.

 Regardless, I'll be back in another year to see what progress 
 has been made. Good luck. I really do hope you guys can get 
 your shit together and make D the top language! I'd like to 
 actually use it for serious stuff one of these days(hopefully 
 before my hair turns gray)


Did you even look at Digger and DVM as was suggested above? They 
don't seem to fulfil your vision, but they do provide some of 
what you are asking for.
Mar 24 2015
parent reply "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:49:56 UTC, CraigDillabaugh wrote:

 On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:13:07 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 You guys are complete ignoring 90% of the post. It is not just 
 about configuration.

 Regardless, I'll be back in another year to see what progress 
 has been made. Good luck. I really do hope you guys can get 
 your shit together and make D the top language! I'd like to 
 actually use it for serious stuff one of these days(hopefully 
 before my hair turns gray)


 Did you even look at Digger and DVM as was suggested above? 
 They don't seem to fulfil your vision, but they do provide some 
 of what you are asking for.


Again, the point is that one can't do it. We know it can be done.
It's about efficiency.

You are not accumulating the man hours it takes over the total
work time(the unexpected stuff that can take days to fix. Days
most people are not willing to even risk wasting if it is
possible).


If all this stuff was properly integrated into an ide like work
space specifically tailored to D development, then I'm sure D
would get more bites than it is.

Obviously it isn't a simple undertaking.

Lets suppose if 30 coders that come to this forum were on board.
Suppose one year was spend developing such an app that make it
very effective to not only develop in D but also help develop D.
Suppose it was just a super awesome and efficient IDE that solved
all the programmers problems.

Ok, Would that year be worth the "wasted time" on the IDE
considering what it can accomplish in the next 10+ years?

Is the investment worth it?

This is an "invest 10k$ and get 1M$ back" type of "scheme". But
in this case if done right it will actually happen. (e.g., invest
in the stock market on logical investments vs giving your money
to Burt & Bernie's Investment Firm.

I just see a bunch of wasted arguments about things on this
forum. If all that energy was captured and harnessed into
creating something that would increase productivity then it will
do so exponentially. (30 people spend 1 year to create something
that potentially millions will use every day for the next 10+
years. That's a 33,000 ROI... who would pass that up?)

Of course, maybe we can just use 10 people and about 3 months to
get a good approximation? Maybe eclipse could be developed to do
the job? Maybe Visual D could be extended to include built in bug
tracking, repository and versioning issues, collaboration, etc?

These questions can't be answered until people think there is a
problem. Maybe the real solution is just to scrap D and get
behind Go. Who knows until people honestly look at the underlying
problems that are preventing D from becoming mainstream(time is
and obvious one, but the more reason to get it done ASAP before
we all end up in the old folks home).

But I guess I digress! Some people just like to dig.
Mar 24 2015
next sibling parent "lobo" <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 March 2015 at 03:30:19 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:49:56 UTC, CraigDillabaugh 
 wrote:

 On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:13:07 UTC, Jake The Baker 
 wrote:

 You guys are complete ignoring 90% of the post. It is not 
 just about configuration.

 Regardless, I'll be back in another year to see what progress 
 has been made. Good luck. I really do hope you guys can get 
 your shit together and make D the top language! I'd like to 
 actually use it for serious stuff one of these days(hopefully 
 before my hair turns gray)


 Did you even look at Digger and DVM as was suggested above? 
 They don't seem to fulfil your vision, but they do provide 
 some of what you are asking for.


 Again, the point is that one can't do it. We know it can be 
 done.
 It's about efficiency.

 You are not accumulating the man hours it takes over the total
 work time(the unexpected stuff that can take days to fix. Days
 most people are not willing to even risk wasting if it is
 possible).


 If all this stuff was properly integrated into an ide like work
 space specifically tailored to D development, then I'm sure D
 would get more bites than it is.

 Obviously it isn't a simple undertaking.

 Lets suppose if 30 coders that come to this forum were on board.
 Suppose one year was spend developing such an app that make it
 very effective to not only develop in D but also help develop D.
 Suppose it was just a super awesome and efficient IDE that 
 solved
 all the programmers problems.

 Ok, Would that year be worth the "wasted time" on the IDE
 considering what it can accomplish in the next 10+ years?

 Is the investment worth it?

 This is an "invest 10k$ and get 1M$ back" type of "scheme". But
 in this case if done right it will actually happen. (e.g., 
 invest
 in the stock market on logical investments vs giving your money
 to Burt & Bernie's Investment Firm.

 I just see a bunch of wasted arguments about things on this
 forum. If all that energy was captured and harnessed into
 creating something that would increase productivity then it will
 do so exponentially. (30 people spend 1 year to create something
 that potentially millions will use every day for the next 10+
 years. That's a 33,000 ROI... who would pass that up?)

 Of course, maybe we can just use 10 people and about 3 months to
 get a good approximation? Maybe eclipse could be developed to do
 the job? Maybe Visual D could be extended to include built in 
 bug
 tracking, repository and versioning issues, collaboration, etc?

 These questions can't be answered until people think there is a
 problem. Maybe the real solution is just to scrap D and get
 behind Go. Who knows until people honestly look at the 
 underlying
 problems that are preventing D from becoming mainstream(time is
 and obvious one, but the more reason to get it done ASAP before
 we all end up in the old folks home).

 But I guess I digress! Some people just like to dig.


Here's a shovel to help you on your way...

Does an IDE exist for contributing to Go?

https://golang.org/doc/install/source

Hmm, looks like CLI might be the IDE of go developers.


And if you just want to contribute to its ecosystem with Go progs?

https://golang.org/doc/code.html

Well this looks very similar to D + DUB.

In fact D is better because it doesn't dictate any one way. You 
can choose whatever works for you. I'm using Make, CMake and 
dub...I'm becoming addicted to DUB for rapid prototyping.


If you really want this, you could champion it yourself. I'm sure 
the D IDE development projects could use as many hands as 
possible.

bye,
lobo
Mar 24 2015
prev sibling parent ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 03:30:17 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 Lets suppose if 30 coders that come to this forum were on board. Suppose
 one year was spend developing such an app that make it very effective to
 not only develop in D but also help develop D. Suppose it was just a
 super awesome and efficient IDE that solved all the programmers
 problems.


and the only problem with that IDE is that nobody uses it. 'cause people=20
comes with their habits, and they used to their existing environments. so=20
that brilliant IDE is a wasted time, 'cause it will never have a big=20
userbase.=
Mar 26 2015
prev sibling parent Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
You have never tried compiling Chromium have you..
Dmd, druntime and phobos do not compare in complexity to that. And 
that's with Google backing it.
Mar 24 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "Israel" <tl12000 live.com> writes:
On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

  In 10 more years I doubt Andrei or Walter will have as much 
 energy to do all the work that they are doing... Better build 
 the infrastructure now while there is time.


Make an atom plugin. The one stop shop for all things D.
Mar 24 2015
prev sibling parent reply Paul O'Neil <redballoon36 gmail.com> writes:
On 03/23/2015 05:34 PM, Jake The Baker wrote:

 If D had an ide that could do the following I think development and
 testing could be better managed.
 
 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to change D
 versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and it checks to see
 if you have the latest, if not it downloads it, configures it, and sets
 it up hands free to be used. (If it requires any interaction to work
 then it is a bug)
 
 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through this IDE.
 Collaboration can be made between groups of people and individuals.
 Announcements could be made by head honchos. (In fact, this software
 could be more generic and used by anyone for any purpose of
 collaboration in programming... e.g. with php).
 
 One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.
 
 3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being able to
 "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging help or whatever).
 
 4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a note over
 a function that links to the D documentation about a bug.


Are there IDE's that do this?  As far as I know, Xcode does not, Qt
Creator does not.


I think you're getting a lot of push back because these ideas don't seem
reasonable, especially in comparison to the infrastructure of other
large-ish open source projects.


-- 
Paul O'Neil
Github / IRC: todayman
Mar 24 2015
parent reply "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 March 2015 at 04:20:03 UTC, Paul O'Neil wrote:

 On 03/23/2015 05:34 PM, Jake The Baker wrote:

 If D had an ide that could do the following I think 
 development and
 testing could be better managed.
 
 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to 
 change D
 versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and it 
 checks to see
 if you have the latest, if not it downloads it, configures it, 
 and sets
 it up hands free to be used. (If it requires any interaction 
 to work
 then it is a bug)
 
 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through 
 this IDE.
 Collaboration can be made between groups of people and 
 individuals.
 Announcements could be made by head honchos. (In fact, this 
 software
 could be more generic and used by anyone for any purpose of
 collaboration in programming... e.g. with php).
 
 One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.
 
 3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being 
 able to
 "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging help or 
 whatever).
 
 4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a 
 note over
 a function that links to the D documentation about a bug.


 Are there IDE's that do this?  As far as I know, Xcode does 
 not, Qt
 Creator does not.


 I think you're getting a lot of push back because these ideas 
 don't seem
 reasonable, especially in comparison to the infrastructure of 
 other
 large-ish open source projects.


And this is exactly why things won't change. There was one time
we didn't have a space shuttle. There was a lot of people saying
the world was flat, At some point the computer you are working on
was just a concept that many people said couldn't be done.

Do *you know what progress is?

Seriously, do you believe that just because Qt, Xcode, VS, etc do
not have such features that such features are useless or simply
not possible? Because that is what you are effectively saying
with your argument.

This is not a BW game. It is Gray. The question isn't if these
features exist already or should be implemented. We know they
will improve performance and enhance collaboration. The question
is how much will it matter. But if you think it's BW then we
can't ever get to that question and nothing will ever change.
(Because you are either a black or a white. (avoids change or
embraces it))

If you want to go with the BW game then we can't even begin to
solve the problem because there is no open discussion that will
lead to true solutions. (I only posted stuff that is suppose to
be a jumping off point)

The Catholic Church has that mentality... as do most
Catholics(not a coincidence). Thousands of years of keeping
progress to a minimum will do that.
(I'm not getting into a religious discussion here. This is not
bashing Catholics. It is simply a well known fact that most(all?)
modern religions are anti-technological-progress because when you
are dealing with the supernatural it's kinda a moot point)
Mar 25 2015
next sibling parent reply "bitwise" <bitwise.pvt gmail.com> writes:
 Do *you know what progress is?


http://arsdnet.net/this-week-in-d/mar-22.html

Author say's it's been a slow week, but you can watch these to 
get a better feel for the pace of D.


 Seriously, do you believe that just because Qt, Xcode, VS, etc 
 do not have such features that such features are useless or
 simply not possible?


Maybe you should ask "If none of these large well funded 
companies have set out to create such features, should it really 
be expected of a free open source project like D?"


So, although I don't speak for the D community, I suspect that 
things are the same as in any open source/free project: "Step Up 
or Shut Up".

At the last DConf though, I remember it being said that what the 
D language really needs is corporate backing/funding. Until that 
happens, I would think it foolhardy to expect any large scale 
changes in how things work here..
Mar 25 2015
parent reply "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 25 March 2015 at 20:05:37 UTC, bitwise wrote:

 Do *you know what progress is?


 http://arsdnet.net/this-week-in-d/mar-22.html

 Author say's it's been a slow week, but you can watch these to 
 get a better feel for the pace of D.


 Seriously, do you believe that just because Qt, Xcode, VS, etc 
 do not have such features that such features are useless or
 simply not possible?


 Maybe you should ask "If none of these large well funded 
 companies have set out to create such features, should it 
 really be expected of a free open source project like D?"


 So, although I don't speak for the D community, I suspect that 
 things are the same as in any open source/free project: "Step 
 Up or Shut Up".

 At the last DConf though, I remember it being said that what 
 the D language really needs is corporate backing/funding. Until 
 that happens, I would think it foolhardy to expect any large 
 scale changes in how things work here..


That may be the case. Maybe that is the first step. But until
people stop acting like little children and think seriously about
the problems, goals, and solutions then who the heck knows what
to do?
Mar 26 2015
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 3/26/15 2:23 PM, Jake The Baker wrote:

 But until
 people stop acting like little children and think seriously about
 the problems, goals, and solutions then who the heck knows what
 to do?


http://wiki.dlang.org/Vision/2015H1 -- Andrei
Mar 26 2015
parent reply "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 22:05:27 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
wrote:

 On 3/26/15 2:23 PM, Jake The Baker wrote:

 But until
 people stop acting like little children and think seriously 
 about
 the problems, goals, and solutions then who the heck knows what
 to do?


 http://wiki.dlang.org/Vision/2015H1 -- Andrei


Yes, but you had to pull that up for me. Suppose there was a one
stop D shop that had all this stuff available, direct, and
immediate? A place that one could get there D fix in many ways.

A "facebook" for D coders, so to speak. All integrated into an
IDE proper. (collaboration, development, documentation, core
development, etc)

My main point about the "child" remark is that there are very few
people here(you, Walter, and a handful of others) actually doing
all the heavy lifting and most others(including myself) just talk
or do minimal work that ultimately won't lead anywhere(At least
any time soon).

What good is D if no one uses it? What good is it if all the
libraries used have poor or hidden documentation? What good is it
if the average noob gets board with it and gives up trying to get
it to work? (Not just D, which is, of course, easy to setup if
you don't mind doing a little text editing and file manipulation)

This is what I imagine. I know it can be done, that is not the
issue. This is all standard programming stuff. That is not the
point. The point is, to discuss ideas freely so the best
solution(Which is usually a combination of all relevant inputs).


1. Get up in the morning
2. Turn on computer.
3. Run the famous "D IDE"
4. Immediately on loading on presented with the main
window(eclipse, visual studio, etc...)
5. Apon loading I notice I have a msg from Joe. Seems Joe found a
bug and he thinks maybe I can fix it.
6. I download his project(all handled by the IDE, as it has a
build in "messenger" system).
7. Load up the probject, find the bug, can quickly match the bug
to the D internals since it's all there. (can jump to core source
code and look at it from any version. All the details of
versioning is handed behind the scenes. All I have to do is
"click on a button" to select which version I want to use.
8. So I write small patch quickly(just needed a null check or
what ever). I can cross reference the bug's(find out if anyone
else has the issue, the discussions involved, all at a drop of a
click.
9. I can submit the patch. Internally the IDE handles creating
the patch report, all the info(source code, test project,
info(line numbers, file names, etc)
10. Now, I'm done with the patching. I want to see what currently
has been done already in the last week. I can easily see the
"whats new" and extract relevant info by filtering. (I could
filter only on core topics, forum posts, etc)
11. By doing so, I find out that the bug I reported on as similar
bugs. I can further investigate that and see how it all relates.
I can pin, follow, start, (potentially) merge, etc topics, bugs,
patches, etc.
12. I can jump over to Walter's "D blog" and see what he is up to.
13. I can check out the main "Vision" which is interactive.
(click the year see the topics for that year, see the individual
progress(would be great to have a sort of project manager build
in).
14. After I have all that fun(With the world of D at my finger
tips in the IDE) I can simply open up some project I've been
working on.
15. The IDE has complete cross-referencing of documentation built
in and very fast. It has full intelligent support. All the
standard IDE stuff.
16. The only thing really difference from this point on is that I
can easily send people projects(simply "send project o "Joe,
Mike, Other" where Joe and Mike are my "buddies" that have joined
my project)... all standard collaboration stuff but quick access.
They can even "remote view" the project if I allow them.
17. e.g., imagine how much easier it would be for people to solve
problems if they could easily "remote view" into a project?
etc.. etc.. etc..
18. Of course, If I wanted to switch to C++ or (D++?) I could do
so at the drop of a hat. The IDE should be somewhat language
agnostic. (this would allow you to do benchmarks and comparisons
easily between different languages... easy Go and D.
19. Not only that, Suppose I have a bug in my code. The IDE can
automatically cross-reference the error code with all bug
reports, forum posts or whatever. I can show anyone who is
working on the patches, allow me to join the discussion or
whatever. Similar to Git in many ways. The point is "quick". I
don't have to open a browser, go to my favorite search engine,
sift through hundreds of irrelevant posts just to find that Bob
had the same bug and no one is working on it. Might take me 10
mins, or 10 hours, or even 10 months to figure out what is going
on or to fix it.


The point being, we know that having this so called "perfect IDE"
would solve many problems.

The real question is it worth doing? Will having such a thing
ultimately bind all the "looseness" that the D community has into
one well oiled machine?

If done well, I believe it would. (I'm not saying my vision of
the IDE is best, but I'm simply talking about a more organized
and unified way to "interact" with D/community.

I'm very particular to the one-stop-shop type of IDE simply
because I find browsers to be very limited, too generic, and very
inefficient to do what I'm talking about. (Those that think
wasting 10 mins or so on something that should take 1 min is not
a big deal... add up all the time you have wasted in your life
waiting for the little spinner/hour glass and I think you'll find
you've wasted a lot of time. (At least a vacations worth... and
how many of us would turn down a free vacation?)
Mar 27 2015
next sibling parent "Jesse Phillips" <Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 27 March 2015 at 13:17:07 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 My main point about the "child" remark is that there are very 
 few
 people here(you, Walter, and a handful of others) actually doing
 all the heavy lifting and most others(including myself) just 
 talk
 or do minimal work that ultimately won't lead anywhere(At least
 any time soon).

 What good is D if no one uses it?


A lot of people who aren't "doing the heavy lifting" or "just 
talk" are busy using D. They may not be contributing to the 
tooling or language or standard library, but they are here 
because they use the language to get something done.
Mar 27 2015
prev sibling parent "bitwise" <bitwise.pvt gmail.com> writes:
 This is what I imagine. I know it can be done, that is not the
 issue. This is all standard programming stuff. That is not the
 point. The point is, to discuss ideas freely so the best
 solution(Which is usually a combination of all relevant inputs).

 1. Get up in the morning
 2. Turn on computer.
 [snip]


I haven't used it, so this is a bit of a shot in the dark, but 
doesn't Visual Studio do a lot of what you're asking?

"Team Explorer" or "Team Foundation" or something...
Mar 27 2015
prev sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:56:32 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 Do *you know what progress is?


one important part of "progress" is not wasting time on useless things.=
Mar 26 2015
next sibling parent reply "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 07:06:50 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:56:32 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 Do *you know what progress is?


 one important part of "progress" is not wasting time on useless 
 things.


And yet you seem to think D's progress is efficient. What you 
determine to be waste is not the absolute almighty law. Only when 
people discuss honestly the problems and possible solutions can a 
real overarching plan come together. You are not interested in 
that because you simply go with the quo. [I generally call this 
the lemming mentality. Look ahead, don't speak out. Repeat what 
everyone else says. Always conform, priority one. Sound familiar? 
I didn't think so!]
Mar 26 2015
next sibling parent "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 21:28:14 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:

 On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 07:06:50 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:56:32 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 Do *you know what progress is?


 one important part of "progress" is not wasting time on 
 useless things.


 And yet you seem to think D's progress is efficient. What you 
 determine to be waste is not the absolute almighty law. Only 
 when people discuss honestly the problems and possible 
 solutions can a real overarching plan come together. You are 
 not interested in that because you simply go with the quo. [I 
 generally call this the lemming mentality. Look ahead, don't 
 speak out. Repeat what everyone else says. Always conform, 
 priority one. Sound familiar? I didn't think so!]


I'm glad you decided to step up and begin working on the project 
you suggested in the OP, I can't wait for you to release it.
Mar 26 2015
prev sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:28:13 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 07:06:50 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:56:32 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 Do *you know what progress is?


 one important part of "progress" is not wasting time on useless things.


=20
 And yet you seem to think D's progress is efficient.


sorry, but your mind-reading abilities are weak. i believe that using IDEs=20
greatly weakens telepathy trait.=
Mar 26 2015
parent "Jake The Baker" <Jake TheBaker.com> writes:
On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 22:33:33 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:28:13 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 07:06:50 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:56:32 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 Do *you know what progress is?


 one important part of "progress" is not wasting time on 
 useless things.


 
 And yet you seem to think D's progress is efficient.


 sorry, but your mind-reading abilities are weak. i believe that 
 using IDEs
 greatly weakens telepathy trait.


Thanks for proving my point!
Mar 27 2015
prev sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 07:06:50 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:56:32 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:


 Do *you know what progress is?


 one important part of "progress" is not wasting time on useless 
 things.


It is efficiency, not progress.

Progress is the variation of some metric over time. This metric 
can be efficiency or anything else.
Mar 26 2015