www.digitalmars.com         C & C++   DMDScript  

digitalmars.D - Should D1 only bugs be closed?

reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no 
longer supported, should these just be closed?

e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309
Feb 09 2013
next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 2/9/13, Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> wrote:

 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no
 longer supported, should these just be closed?

 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309



From what I can tell bug fixes are still ported to D1, only


enhancements are not.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> writes:
On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 17:48 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
[=E2=80=A6]

 From what I can tell bug fixes are still ported to D1, only
 enhancements are not.


As of 2013-01-01 D1 is supposed to be having no work done on it. To have
the prospect of future D1 releases having said there would be none is
giving all the wrong messages.

--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 2/9/13, Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> wrote:

 On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 17:48 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 [=85]

 From what I can tell bug fixes are still ported to D1, only
 enhancements are not.


 As of 2013-01-01 D1 is supposed to be having no work done on it. To have
 the prospect of future D1 releases having said there would be none is
 giving all the wrong messages.


Don't shoot the messenger. :)

Walter is still working on D1, as shown:

https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x

We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, when it was
agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Russel Winder <russel winder.org.uk> writes:
On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:30 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
[=E2=80=A6]

 Don't shoot the messenger. :)


Indeed, sorry for any such behaviour.

(I had thought of getting into some black humour about shootings but
restrained myself.)


 Walter is still working on D1, as shown:
=20
 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x
=20
 We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, when it was
 agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.


This sort of thing makes it very hard for those of is trying to market
D. There is little enough resource developing D as it is and to have
significant amount of it working on dead code, seriously undermines the
message.

--=20
Russel.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n=
et
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
Feb 09 2013
parent reply "David Nadlinger" <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 18:04:29 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

 On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:30 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 Walter is still working on D1, as shown:
 
 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x
 
 We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, 
 when it was
 agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.


 This sort of thing makes it very hard for those of is trying to 
 market
 D. There is little enough resource developing D as it is and to 
 have
 significant amount of it working on dead code, seriously 
 undermines the
 message.


The worst part is that there wasn't even an official announcement 
regarding the status of D1. The way the situation has been 
handled so far could be straight out of a »What not to do in 
project management« handbook.

David
Feb 09 2013
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/9/2013 2:09 PM, David Nadlinger wrote:

 The worst part is that there wasn't even an official announcement regarding the
 status of D1.


D1 is no longer officially supported. There are a couple users of D1 still
(like 
Don), and it would be discourteous to try to purge D1. The point of using git
is 
that branches can exist and be amended if a reason comes up to do so.


 The way the situation has been handled so far could be straight
 out of a »What not to do in project management« handbook.


I don't see how anyone has been damaged or even inconvenienced here.
Feb 09 2013
next sibling parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:30:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 D1 is no longer officially supported.


What does that actually mean?

Specifically:

- Will there be more D1 releases?
- Will D1 bug fixes be pulled?
- Should people still file D1 bugs?
- Should people care about D1 when submitting pulls for D2?

 From what Andrej has linked to on github, it certainly looks like 
D1 is still being supported.
Feb 09 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/9/2013 2:39 PM, Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:30:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 D1 is no longer officially supported.


 What does that actually mean?

 Specifically:

 - Will there be more D1 releases?
 - Will D1 bug fixes be pulled?
 - Should people still file D1 bugs?
 - Should people care about D1 when submitting pulls for D2?

  From what Andrej has linked to on github, it certainly looks like D1 is still
 being supported.


People who are interested in D1 are welcome to submit pulls for them, and I'll 
pull them.

This shouldn't affect anyone else. That's the whole point of using git.
Feb 09 2013
next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 2/9/13, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 This shouldn't affect anyone else. That's the whole point of using git.


How does it not affect us if *you* are taking the time to port D2 fixes to D1?

The whole announcement that D1 support is over after December 31st was
clearly completely pointless and a lie.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:50:18 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 People who are interested in D1 are welcome to submit pulls for 
 them, and I'll pull them.

 This shouldn't affect anyone else. That's the whole point of 
 using git.


If it uses up your time then it affects everyone using D2 because 
it's time you're spending supporting an "unsupported" project 
instead of supporting D2.

It might be ok if D1 merges were a rare occurrence, but according 
to the github logs you're merging into the D1 on a daily basis.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling parent "David Nadlinger" <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 22:30:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 D1 is no longer officially supported. There are a couple users 
 of D1 still (like Don), and it would be discourteous to try to 
 purge D1. The point of using git is that branches can exist and 
 be amended if a reason comes up to do so.


I know, you've mentioned it as a side note on some 
dmd-internals/GitHub discussion.

Note that even though I would obviously love to see more 
corporate users contributing to D2, I'm not at all trying to 
discourage Don, Leandro and the others from Sociomantic from 
continuing to work on D1.

There just has not really been an official announcement regarding 
the ongoing D1 development, and what form it will continue in.


 I don't see how anyone has been damaged or even inconvenienced 
 here.


I think a lack of clear communication in this area can be a 
threat in two ways:

First, from how discussions in the different online fora usually 
go, the D development is not exactly perceived as principled or 
organized by many outsiders. And seemingly continuing to support 
a product after its firmly announced discontinuation date is only 
going to add to that, as Russel noted earlier.

Second, and perhaps even more importantly, such situations will 
almost invariably startle the developer community, as evidenced 
by the posts in this thread, and the (as usual, slightly ... 
direct) "wtf is Walter doing" messages that have been popping up 
on IRC lately.

I don't want to make it seem as if I knew it all and had the 
answer to all process-related questions; I certainly don't and 
there are many people here who are much more experienced in the 
various aspects of software development than I am. But I *do* 
think that I have recognized the vital importance of 
communication to the success of any big problem (open source or 
not). And, as I think I mentioned elsewhere recently, it occurs 
to me that a lack or delay in communication has been the 
recurring theme in many of the more unfortunate turns and missed 
opportunities in D's history.

In retrospect, some of my recent messages might have turned out a 
little bit too blunt. Please accept my apologies, I just tried to 
state my opinion clearly and did not intend to offend anybody. 
But I'd hate to see the same story being repeated all over again, 
and it seems that unfortunately it is the most direct queries 
that tend receive a response the fastest...

David
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 2/9/13 5:09 PM, David Nadlinger wrote:

 On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 18:04:29 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

 On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 18:30 +0100, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 Walter is still working on D1, as shown:

 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/commits/dmd-1.x

 We're all baffled as to why he's still wasting time on D1, when it was
 agreed we'd stop working on it after December 31st.


 This sort of thing makes it very hard for those of is trying to market
 D. There is little enough resource developing D as it is and to have
 significant amount of it working on dead code, seriously undermines the
 message.


 The worst part is that there wasn't even an official announcement
 regarding the status of D1. The way the situation has been handled so
 far could be straight out of a »What not to do in project management«
 handbook.

 David


http://forum.dlang.org/post/jc0ic5$18bv$2 digitalmars.com

Looking forward to see you all at DConf 2013. I hope that meeting would 
put an end to the recent, let's say, less courteous exchanges in this 
group as of late.


Andrei
Feb 09 2013
parent reply "David Nadlinger" <see klickverbot.at> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 23:08:55 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 http://forum.dlang.org/post/jc0ic5$18bv$2 digitalmars.com


That post is over a year old, and the point was precisely that 
recent development activity seemed to contradict this statement.


 Looking forward to see you all at DConf 2013. I hope that 
 meeting would put an end to the recent, let's say, less 
 courteous exchanges in this group as of late.


As written in my reply to Walter, I didn't intend to offend 
anybody, but I *am* beginning to feel somewhat like a broken 
record asking for more proactively communicating decisions that 
concern the D project as a whole. Just don't let any ambiguities 
arise in the first place.

Oh, and I am certainly looking forward to meeting you all at this 
year's DConf as well.

David
Feb 09 2013
parent "Miles Stoudenmire" <miles.stoudenmire gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 10 February 2013 at 03:20:26 UTC, David Nadlinger 
wrote:

 That post is over a year old, and the point was precisely that 
 recent development activity seemed to contradict this statement.


The D Progamming Language book discusses this decision as well.
Feb 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Sat, 09 Feb 2013 17:33:39 +0100
schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:


 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no 
 longer supported, should these just be closed?
 
 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309


If people who want or have to stick with D1 make pull requests
for bugs they fixed that's good. Just keep them open I'd say
unless they require a new feature to be implemented.

-- 
Marco
Feb 09 2013
parent reply "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 21:11:36 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:

 If people who want or have to stick with D1 make pull requests
 for bugs they fixed that's good. Just keep them open I'd say
 unless they require a new feature to be implemented.


I thought the point of discontinuing support was so that Walter 
didn't have to waste time pulling things into the D1 branch and 
making releases? If he's not going to be doing that then there's 
no point people making pull requests, and no point having the 
bugs in the database.

That being said, as Andrej has highlighted above, it appears that 
D1 in fact has not been discontinued at all. There's still daily 
activity on that branch, so I'm wondering now what's actually 
going on?
Feb 09 2013
parent reply Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:41:18 +0100
schrieb "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com>:


 On Saturday, 9 February 2013 at 21:11:36 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:

 If people who want or have to stick with D1 make pull requests
 for bugs they fixed that's good. Just keep them open I'd say
 unless they require a new feature to be implemented.


 
 I thought the point of discontinuing support was so that Walter 
 didn't have to waste time pulling things into the D1 branch and 
 making releases? If he's not going to be doing that then there's 
 no point people making pull requests, and no point having the 
 bugs in the database.
 
 That being said, as Andrej has highlighted above, it appears that 
 D1 in fact has not been discontinued at all. There's still daily 
 activity on that branch, so I'm wondering now what's actually 
 going on?


Maybe this project was thought of as an operating system
where you just discontinue support and updates, but it turned
out that with open source and GitHub it is actually possible
with little effort to allow D1 users (and we have corporate
users there) to fix remaining bugs.
I'm far from a core DMD developer, so I don't understand your
dependence on Walter's full attention to D2. I'm just saying
it seems legit to me, to keep Don & Co. on board. I'd just
drop making D1 releases as a compromise.

-- 
Marco
Feb 09 2013
parent "Peter Alexander" <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 10 February 2013 at 07:06:47 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:

 I'm far from a core DMD developer, so I don't understand your
 dependence on Walter's full attention to D2. I'm just saying
 it seems legit to me, to keep Don & Co. on board. I'd just
 drop making D1 releases as a compromise.


It seems legit to me, too. I fully understand the desire to 
continue supporting D1: there are still real users with real 
needs. I'm just confused since we were told that D1 would be 
discontinued at the start of this year.

Walter and Andrei's time is precious because they are the only 
people that can make final decisions about the language, and 
there's many, many decisions that still need to be made: property 
syntax, shared semantics, copy constructors, ref semantics, auto 
ref, accessibility vs. visibility, allocator design etc.  Any 
time spent merging changes into D1 is time not spent fixing 
issues with D2.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse here. Clearly D1 is still going 
to be supported, and me ranting on the forums isn't going to 
change that.
Feb 10 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/9/2013 8:33 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:

 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no longer
supported,
 should these just be closed?

 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309


No.
Feb 09 2013
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Saturday, February 09, 2013 14:22:44 Walter Bright wrote:

 On 2/9/2013 8:33 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:

 Quite a few of the older bugs are D1 only. Given that D1 is no longer
 supported, should these just be closed?
 
 e.g. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=309


 
 No.


I think that what most of us expected to happen to D1 when official support was 
discontinued would be that no more work would occur on the D1 branch in the 
official repository at all, and all bugs in bugzilla for D1 would be closed as 
"won't fix." Anyone would be free to branch from the official repository and 
continue the project, but nothing in the official repository or bug tracker 
would do anything with D1 anymore. The only way that work on D1 would continue 
would be if someone else took it over the project and used their own fork to 
continue it. Pretty much anything short of that makes it seem like D1 is still 
supported. But apparently, you weren't thinking that way, and there's clearly 
been a misunderstanding as to what not supporting D1 meant.

- Jonathan M Davis
Feb 09 2013