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digitalmars.D - Removed?

reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Nemerle and Factor removed from Wikipedia? What are those deletionists doing?

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/fkt7t/nemerle_factor_alice_ml_and_other_programming/

Is D page too at risk of deletion?
(Months ago those sick people have deleted some pages written by me in hours or
days. This is not nice).

Bye,
bearophile
Feb 14 2011
next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:05:32 +0200, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com>  
wrote:


 (Months ago those sick people have deleted some pages written by me in  
 hours or days. This is not nice).


Wikipedia articles must prove that they are notable enough, and people  
unfamiliar with the subject must be able to verify it. Otherwise, it  
fosters self-promotion.

Wikipedia has rules which may seem unfair or unbalanced at times, but  
they're mostly logical with regards to the project's integrity (and not  
necessarily usefulness).

Administrators will often gladly provide copies of deleted articles.


 Is D page too at risk of deletion?


D got a lot of press and a book, so I think that's highly unlikely.

-- 
Best regards,
  Vladimir                            mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Feb 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Aaron Smith <mail pathway.org> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:


 On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:05:32 +0200, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com>  
 wrote:
 

 (Months ago those sick people have deleted some pages written by me in  
 hours or days. This is not nice).


 
 Wikipedia articles must prove that they are notable enough, and people  
 unfamiliar with the subject must be able to verify it. Otherwise, it  
 fosters self-promotion.
 
 Wikipedia has rules which may seem unfair or unbalanced at times, but  
 they're mostly logical with regards to the project's integrity (and not  
 necessarily usefulness).
 
 Administrators will often gladly provide copies of deleted articles.
 

 Is D page too at risk of deletion?


 
 D got a lot of press and a book, so I think that's highly unlikely.


Thank god we have TDPL, otherwise the D page would quickly lose this battle. D
is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica, Kiev, Einstein,
Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT, Ioke, EASY,
Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript, Algae, Agena,
Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor, Glagol. These all
have been deleted by the same editor.

This guy is actually doing us a great favor by deleting references to
competition. This improves D's position a lot in Wikipedia.
Feb 14 2011
next sibling parent spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 02:00 AM, Aaron Smith wrote:

 Thank god we have TDPL, otherwise the D page would quickly lose this battle. D
is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica, Kiev, Einstein,
Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT, Ioke, EASY,
Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript, Algae, Agena,
Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor, Glagol. These all
have been deleted by the same editor.


Believe it or not, from this list, I had studied a bit Nemerle, Joy and Factor 
before I even knew there was a PL called D.


 This guy is actually doing us a great favor by deleting references to
competition. This improves D's position a lot in Wikipedia.


<sigh>

D's actual competition is software market share big machines (also somewhat 
usable as programming languages) backed by big companies.

[can any PL cited above be qualified as such?]

Denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:00:59 +0200, Aaron Smith <mail pathway.org> wrote:


 Thank god we have TDPL, otherwise the D page would quickly lose this  
 battle. D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure,  
 Nosica, Kiev, Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi,  
 Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT, Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix,  
 Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript, Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota,  
 Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor, Glagol. These all have been  
 deleted by the same editor.


Not necessarily defending his actions, but speaking personally not one of  
these languages rings a bell to me, while I've heard of D in contexts  
otherwise unrelated to D several times.

-- 
Best regards,
  Vladimir                            mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Feb 14 2011
next sibling parent Andrew Wiley <debio264 gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Vladimir Panteleev
<vladimir thecybershadow.net> wrote:

 On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:00:59 +0200, Aaron Smith <mail pathway.org> wrote:


 Thank god we have TDPL, otherwise the D page would quickly lose this
 battle. D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica,
 Kiev, Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy, Mythryl,
 COMIT, Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith, ChinesePython,
 AngelScript, Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest,
 Lava, Factor, Glagol. These all have been deleted by the same editor.


 Not necessarily defending his actions, but speaking personally not one of
 these languages rings a bell to me, while I've heard of D in contexts
 otherwise unrelated to D several times.


Apparently the editor responsible for this got reddit-stormed and gave
up. The internet is a fun place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Christopher_Monsanto
Feb 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev:


 Not necessarily defending his actions, but speaking personally not one of  
 these languages rings a bell to me, while I've heard of D in contexts  
 otherwise unrelated to D several times.


Pages about Factor and Nemerle:
http://factor-language.blogspot.com/
http://nemerle.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
The Factor blog is quite good, you will be able to learn a good amount of
computer science from it :-)

Bye,
bearophile
Feb 14 2011
parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 2/15/11, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> wrote:

 Vladimir Panteleev:


 Not necessarily defending his actions, but speaking personally not one of

 these languages rings a bell to me, while I've heard of D in contexts
 otherwise unrelated to D several times.


 Pages about Factor and Nemerle:
 http://factor-language.blogspot.com/
 http://nemerle.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
 The Factor blog is quite good, you will be able to learn a good amount of
 computer science from it :-)

 Bye,
 bearophile


How many languages have you tried? And how many can you code at
without a reference manual?

I'd like to know! :)
Feb 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 01:38 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:05:32 +0200, bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com>
wrote:


 (Months ago those sick people have deleted some pages written by me in hours
 or days. This is not nice).


 Wikipedia articles must prove that they are notable enough, and people
 unfamiliar with the subject must be able to verify it. Otherwise, it fosters
 self-promotion.

 Wikipedia has rules which may seem unfair or unbalanced at times, but they're
 mostly logical with regards to the project's integrity (and not necessarily
 usefulness).

 Administrators will often gladly provide copies of deleted articles.


The problem in the field of PLs is that the nature or software, and software 
industry (even for pedagogy and academics in the domain) foster concentration, 
leaning toward little or big monopoles. What makes a variety of programming 
languages interesting, their differences, is what lets them largely ignored by 
programmers, media, academic press, studies, professors,... I guess a free 
encyclopedia like wikipedia is precisely their place to be, and to be found 
--if any.
Superb examples of human design, construction, and invention will traverse 
generations without getting a single "authorized" paper or media article 
qualifying as third party source "proving" their worth to be included. Sadly 
enough, counter-examples backed by hype get masses of such fame.

Denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev:


 Wikipedia articles must prove that they are notable enough,


Those persons have removed some interesting information.

------------------

Aaron Smith:


 D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica, Kiev,
Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT,
Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript,
Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor,
Glagol. These all have been deleted by the same editor.


Nemerle, Factor, and few others need to be put back in Wikipedia.



 This guy is actually doing us a great favor by deleting references to
competition. This improves D's position a lot in Wikipedia.


You need a bit more "Population thinking" :-) First of all, gaining popularity
thanks to someone that foster ignorance isn't something to be proud of.

And then, D is a new language. Ignorant programmers that don't know much about
languages are less likely to become interested in D. If you increase the
biodiversity of language knowledge inside the head of programmers, they will be
more ready to understand and accept D too. Some people know D because they are
language enthusiasts, they a good part of the early adopters of a language that
has no tools and tons of bugs. The more you know, the more able you are to
learn. Reducing the exposure to other languages you reduce the biodiversity of
language knowledge. This has a net negative effect on the growth of the D
community. Knowledge is never a zero-sum game.

Bye,
bearophile
Feb 14 2011
parent reply spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 02:25 AM, bearophile wrote:

 D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica, Kiev,
Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT,
Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript,
Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor,
Glagol. These all have been deleted by the same editor.


 Nemerle, Factor, and few others need to be put back in Wikipedia.


The issue is: who judges what needs to be put? If we agree the notoriety 
criterion is not only not good enough, but simply bad, in numerous domains (not 
only PLs), then what can be used? What criterion can be used, especially, to 
/remove/ articles?
Possibly the most interesting & earth-shaking language of all ever invented is 
among these ones. It is obviously hard to find one criterion, in any domain 
involving design, creativity and/or research, don't you think?

denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 15 2011
parent reply Aaron Smith <mail pathway.org> writes:
spir Wrote:


 On 02/15/2011 02:25 AM, bearophile wrote:

 D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica, Kiev,
Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT,
Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript,
Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor,
Glagol. These all have been deleted by the same editor.


 Nemerle, Factor, and few others need to be put back in Wikipedia.


 
 The issue is: who judges what needs to be put? If we agree the notoriety 
 criterion is not only not good enough, but simply bad, in numerous domains
(not 
 only PLs), then what can be used? What criterion can be used, especially, to 
 /remove/ articles?
 Possibly the most interesting & earth-shaking language of all ever invented is 
 among these ones. It is obviously hard to find one criterion, in any domain 
 involving design, creativity and/or research, don't you think?


If you're actively participating in language development, you should at least
know Factor, Nemerle, and Alice ML. The author of Cat also has a strong online
presence although he's not widely considered a genius unlike the authors of
Factor and LuaJIT and Walter Bright. Slava Pestov is a real world hardcore
badass developer and his Factor is *The* stack language to rule them all.
Feb 15 2011
next sibling parent reply spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 01:36 PM, Aaron Smith wrote:

 spir Wrote:


 On 02/15/2011 02:25 AM, bearophile wrote:

 D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica, Kiev,
Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT,
Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript,
Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor,
Glagol. These all have been deleted by the same editor.


 Nemerle, Factor, and few others need to be put back in Wikipedia.


 The issue is: who judges what needs to be put? If we agree the notoriety
 criterion is not only not good enough, but simply bad, in numerous domains (not
 only PLs), then what can be used? What criterion can be used, especially, to
 /remove/ articles?
 Possibly the most interesting&  earth-shaking language of all ever invented is
 among these ones. It is obviously hard to find one criterion, in any domain
 involving design, creativity and/or research, don't you think?


 If you're actively participating in language development, you should at least
know Factor, Nemerle, and Alice ML. The author of Cat also has a strong online
presence although he's not widely considered a genius unlike the authors of
Factor and LuaJIT and Walter Bright. Slava Pestov is a real world hardcore
badass developer and his Factor is *The* stack language to rule them all.


I do agree (and have actually read docs by Slave Pestov); but how does this 
/judgement/ of yours help and solving the issue? Or do you mean you should be 
the one deciding? If we ask true language enthusiasts, they would see no good 
reason in removing any language from the above list, don't you think (aside 
lang wars)? The same applies to the hundreds of articles about pokemons. And 
their fans are as right as us. And they can more easily point to external 
references than us ;-)

Denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 15 2011
parent Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
Am 15.02.2011 15:11, schrieb spir:

 On 02/15/2011 01:36 PM, Aaron Smith wrote:

 spir Wrote:


 On 02/15/2011 02:25 AM, bearophile wrote:

 D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure, Nosica,
 Kiev, Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi, Ptolemy,
 Mythryl, COMIT, Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix, Bsisith,
 ChinesePython, AngelScript, Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota, Jot,
 Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor, Glagol. These all have been
 deleted by the same editor.


 Nemerle, Factor, and few others need to be put back in Wikipedia.


 The issue is: who judges what needs to be put? If we agree the notoriety
 criterion is not only not good enough, but simply bad, in numerous
 domains (not
 only PLs), then what can be used? What criterion can be used,
 especially, to
 /remove/ articles?
 Possibly the most interesting& earth-shaking language of all ever
 invented is
 among these ones. It is obviously hard to find one criterion, in any
 domain
 involving design, creativity and/or research, don't you think?


 If you're actively participating in language development, you should
 at least know Factor, Nemerle, and Alice ML. The author of Cat also
 has a strong online presence although he's not widely considered a
 genius unlike the authors of Factor and LuaJIT and Walter Bright.
 Slava Pestov is a real world hardcore badass developer and his Factor
 is *The* stack language to rule them all.


 I do agree (and have actually read docs by Slave Pestov); but how does
 this /judgement/ of yours help and solving the issue? Or do you mean you
 should be the one deciding? If we ask true language enthusiasts, they
 would see no good reason in removing any language from the above list,
 don't you think (aside lang wars)? The same applies to the hundreds of
 articles about pokemons. And their fans are as right as us. And they can
 more easily point to external references than us ;-)

 Denis


Who cares. *If*, for some reason, you want information about one of the 
more unknown/esoteric languages or a specific pokemon it's handy to be 
able to look it up at wikipedia. They can add a "this article is about a 
potentially uninteresting topic and is not reviewed to be correct" tag 
if they want, but what's the point in deleting it.. it's better to have 
*some* information and links than nothing.
Imagine D being a totally new and unknown language. Not notable for 
their standards.. now you nevertheless hear about it and want to find 
out about it. What will you do? google it? Haha, have fun googling "D".. 
You'd be glad if there were a small Wikipedia article with a Hello World 
example and a link to the D homepage and possibly other ressources...

It's the same for other languages.. google "Factor" or "Alice ML" - it's 
quite probable that you won't find what you need.
(And if you do it is because these languages are not completely unknown 
anymore).
Feb 15 2011
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Aaron Smith wrote:

 although he's not widely considered a genius unlike the
 authors of Factor and LuaJIT and Walter Bright.


Actually, I'm quite famous for being incompetent.
Feb 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Aaron Smith <mail pathway.org> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:


 On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:00:59 +0200, Aaron Smith <mail pathway.org> wrote:
 

 Thank god we have TDPL, otherwise the D page would quickly lose this  
 battle. D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure,  
 Nosica, Kiev, Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi,  
 Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT, Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix,  
 Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript, Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota,  
 Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor, Glagol. These all have been  
 deleted by the same editor.


 
 Not necessarily defending his actions, but speaking personally not one of  
 these languages rings a bell to me, while I've heard of D in contexts  
 otherwise unrelated to D several times.


I'm just saying you should have some sort of a track record of writing quality
articles /and/ possibly real world competence before getting the permission to
remove content, especially if you're hunting down over 35 articles on short
notice.

The Wikipedia policy guidelines are more or less out of place. If they care
about not wasting server space, they should avoid these votings and arguments
as much as possible. In general article removals should be harder to perform,
e.g. requiring a 3/4 or 5/6 or 9/10 consencus.

The meatpuppetry argument is especially awkward. Assume someone has personal
issues with D and decides to nominate the 'D programming language' article for
deletion (AfD). Next, some D user periodically updating the D article notices
this, starts a new (emotionally colored) thread in reddit and posts the link to
the article to the newsgroup. This is something that badly pisses off the
Wikipedia deletionists and soon everyone defending the article become
meatpuppets in their eyes. If you call people with offensive names, you lose
your vote and might get a permaban. foreach(name in reddit.thread ||
d.newsgroup) might also get a permaban if the deletionists are in a bad mood.
It takes a huge amount of effort to actually keep the articles. It would be
much easier to just leave them there and let the maintainers fix the issues.

Back to the topic..  at least Alice ML was used for teaching functional
programming in some universities. There are also boatloads of papers about it,
web sites, active users, and maybe even some dedicated books. This was all
dismissed in the deletionist process.
Feb 15 2011
parent spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 01:22 PM, Aaron Smith wrote:

 Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:


 On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:00:59 +0200, Aaron Smith<mail pathway.org>  wrote:


 Thank god we have TDPL, otherwise the D page would quickly lose this
 battle. D is much much more notable than Nemerle, Alice ML, Pure,
 Nosica, Kiev, Einstein, Alma-0, Joy, Zonnon, Y, Cat, Fancy, Ambi,
 Ptolemy, Mythryl, COMIT, Ioke, EASY, Aikido, A+, Adenine, Afnix,
 Bsisith, ChinesePython, AngelScript, Algae, Agena, Taxi, Inger, Iota,
 Jot, Agora, Falcon, Averest, Lava, Factor, Glagol. These all have been
 deleted by the same editor.


 Not necessarily defending his actions, but speaking personally not one of
 these languages rings a bell to me, while I've heard of D in contexts
 otherwise unrelated to D several times.


 I'm just saying you should have some sort of a track record of writing quality
articles /and/ possibly real world competence before getting the permission to
remove content, especially if you're hunting down over 35 articles on short
notice.

 The Wikipedia policy guidelines are more or less out of place. If they care
about not wasting server space, they should avoid these votings and arguments
as much as possible. In general article removals should be harder to perform,
e.g. requiring a 3/4 or 5/6 or 9/10 consencus.

 The meatpuppetry argument is especially awkward. Assume someone has personal
issues with D and decides to nominate the 'D programming language' article for
deletion (AfD). Next, some D user periodically updating the D article notices
this, starts a new (emotionally colored) thread in reddit and posts the link to
the article to the newsgroup. This is something that badly pisses off the
Wikipedia deletionists and soon everyone defending the article become
meatpuppets in their eyes. If you call people with offensive names, you lose
your vote and might get a permaban. foreach(name in reddit.thread ||
d.newsgroup) might also get a permaban if the deletionists are in a bad mood.
It takes a huge amount of effort to actually keep the articles. It would be
much easier to just leave them there and let the maintainers fix the issues.

 Back to the topic..  at least Alice ML was used for teaching functional
programming in some universities. There are also boatloads of papers about it,
web sites, active users, and maybe even some dedicated books. This was all
dismissed in the deletionist process.


This was not dismissed, AFAIK, instead this material was not mentionned ot 
pointed to by any co-author of the article; even after the AfD process had 
started. Else, the article could not have been deleted, according to WP's own 
criteria (more concretely, it would have been trivial to defend it).
==> If you create a new article and want to be sure it remains, start with 
quotations, references, pointers... lol

Denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 15 2011
prev sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:


 Wikipedia articles must prove that they are notable enough, and people  
 unfamiliar with the subject must be able to verify it. Otherwise, it  
 fosters self-promotion.
 
 Wikipedia has rules which may seem unfair or unbalanced at times, but  
 they're mostly logical with regards to the project's integrity (and not  
 necessarily usefulness).


The wikipedia rules explicitly state that they should be taken with common
sense and deletion of nemerle is obviously beyond it. Not even speaking that
they were given a scholarly article.

ps I'm not a nemerle fan and hate functional languages.
Feb 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"bearophile" <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> wrote in message 
news:ijcg0c$18el$1 digitalmars.com...

 Nemerle and Factor removed from Wikipedia? What are those deletionists 
 doing?


That's terrible. Although I'm not familiar with Factor and can't speak for 
it, Nemerle is certainly deserving of a page.
Feb 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
Am 15.02.2011 01:05, schrieb bearophile:

 Nemerle and Factor removed from Wikipedia? What are those deletionists doing?

 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/fkt7t/nemerle_factor_alice_ml_and_other_programming/

 Is D page too at risk of deletion?
 (Months ago those sick people have deleted some pages written by me in hours
or days. This is not nice).

 Bye,
 bearophile


Wikipedia has become a horribly broken system with a lot of idiots.
IMHO something is notable if somebody wants to write about it.
Wikipedia is no printed encyclopedia where you only have limited space.. 
something like Wikipedia is *the* chance to collect all kind of 
knowledge, even about stuff you hardly find information about anywhere else.
But those censors screw it up by deleting all kinds of articles because 
it's not notable or has no accepted sources/references (accepted sources 
are, ironically, mostly dead tree publications).

Cheers,
- Daniel
Feb 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrew Wiley <debio264 gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:56 AM, Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> wrote:

 Am 15.02.2011 01:05, schrieb bearophile:

 Nemerle and Factor removed from Wikipedia? What are those deletionists
 doing?


 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/fkt7t/nemerle_factor_alice_ml_and_other_programming/

 Is D page too at risk of deletion?
 (Months ago those sick people have deleted some pages written by me in
 hours or days. This is not nice).

 Bye,
 bearophile


 Wikipedia has become a horribly broken system with a lot of idiots.
 IMHO something is notable if somebody wants to write about it.
 Wikipedia is no printed encyclopedia where you only have limited space..
 something like Wikipedia is *the* chance to collect all kind of knowledge,
 even about stuff you hardly find information about anywhere else.
 But those censors screw it up by deleting all kinds of articles because it's
 not notable or has no accepted sources/references (accepted sources are,
 ironically, mostly dead tree publications).


No, they have a point. That philosophy doesn't work because at some
point, there's too much information. Too much to edit to make sure it
meets standards, too much to browse (if the links are bad enough to
parody with the Wikipedia game, how bad would they be with unlimited
content?). When you open that door, useful content gets drowned in
floods of things like useless biographies and advertisements for
things no one has heard of.
If you take a look at the discussion for the notability requirements,
no one really likes them, but no one has really found a better way to
define what's notable than to require it to have valid sources.
Without those sorts of requirements, Wikipedia becomes chaos.
Feb 15 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Andrew Wiley wrote:

 No, they have a point. That philosophy doesn't work because at some
 point, there's too much information. Too much to edit to make sure it
 meets standards, too much to browse (if the links are bad enough to
 parody with the Wikipedia game, how bad would they be with unlimited
 content?). When you open that door, useful content gets drowned in
 floods of things like useless biographies and advertisements for
 things no one has heard of.
 If you take a look at the discussion for the notability requirements,
 no one really likes them, but no one has really found a better way to
 define what's notable than to require it to have valid sources.
 Without those sorts of requirements, Wikipedia becomes chaos.


I agree that pointless clutter can ruin Wikipedia.

One possible solution is to have a 'ranking' of articles, say 1 to 5 stars. A 5 
star article would be notable enough that it would be likely to be in a printed 
encyclopedia. A 1 star would be like a bio page on your neighbor.

Wikipedia searching then could be filtered by how many stars you want.

Any mechanical ranking system can be gamed (see the recent stories about link 
farms and Google), so it would have to be moderated.
Feb 15 2011
parent reply Daniel Gibson <metalcaedes gmail.com> writes:
Am 15.02.2011 09:24, schrieb Walter Bright:

 Andrew Wiley wrote:

 No, they have a point. That philosophy doesn't work because at some
 point, there's too much information. Too much to edit to make sure it
 meets standards, too much to browse (if the links are bad enough to
 parody with the Wikipedia game, how bad would they be with unlimited
 content?). When you open that door, useful content gets drowned in
 floods of things like useless biographies and advertisements for
 things no one has heard of.
 If you take a look at the discussion for the notability requirements,
 no one really likes them, but no one has really found a better way to
 define what's notable than to require it to have valid sources.
 Without those sorts of requirements, Wikipedia becomes chaos.


 I agree that pointless clutter can ruin Wikipedia.

 One possible solution is to have a 'ranking' of articles, say 1 to 5
 stars. A 5 star article would be notable enough that it would be likely
 to be in a printed encyclopedia. A 1 star would be like a bio page on
 your neighbor.

 Wikipedia searching then could be filtered by how many stars you want.

 Any mechanical ranking system can be gamed (see the recent stories about
 link farms and Google), so it would have to be moderated.


Yes, something like that would work.
There already are articles that are reviewed and articles that aren't, 
which kind of goes in that direction.
Maybe some guidelines what should be in Wikipedia and what shouldn't 
(advertisements certainly shouldn't) make sense, but the their current 
way is just wrong. "I've never heard of that band *delete*" "There are 
no books about that language *delete*" etc...
(And German Wikipedia is said to be even worse then the English one)
Feb 15 2011
parent spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 09:43 AM, Daniel Gibson wrote:

 Am 15.02.2011 09:24, schrieb Walter Bright:

 Andrew Wiley wrote:

 No, they have a point. That philosophy doesn't work because at some
 point, there's too much information. Too much to edit to make sure it
 meets standards, too much to browse (if the links are bad enough to
 parody with the Wikipedia game, how bad would they be with unlimited
 content?). When you open that door, useful content gets drowned in
 floods of things like useless biographies and advertisements for
 things no one has heard of.
 If you take a look at the discussion for the notability requirements,
 no one really likes them, but no one has really found a better way to
 define what's notable than to require it to have valid sources.
 Without those sorts of requirements, Wikipedia becomes chaos.


 I agree that pointless clutter can ruin Wikipedia.

 One possible solution is to have a 'ranking' of articles, say 1 to 5
 stars. A 5 star article would be notable enough that it would be likely
 to be in a printed encyclopedia. A 1 star would be like a bio page on
 your neighbor.

 Wikipedia searching then could be filtered by how many stars you want.

 Any mechanical ranking system can be gamed (see the recent stories about
 link farms and Google), so it would have to be moderated.


 Yes, something like that would work.
 There already are articles that are reviewed and articles that aren't, which
 kind of goes in that direction.


There is an "assessment" system that has started to be used for a while 
already. With artcles ranked at various levels of quality (indeed probably 
discussable, but people want that); qialified by name instead of stars as 
Walter suggested.
But a majority of articles are still unassessed yet.

Denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 08:56 AM, Daniel Gibson wrote:

 Am 15.02.2011 01:05, schrieb bearophile:

 Nemerle and Factor removed from Wikipedia? What are those deletionists doing?

 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/fkt7t/nemerle_factor_alice_ml_and_other_programming/


 Is D page too at risk of deletion?
 (Months ago those sick people have deleted some pages written by me in hours
 or days. This is not nice).

 Bye,
 bearophile


 Wikipedia has become a horribly broken system with a lot of idiots.


I wouldn't say that. We only heard about this case, one of a single man, 
because it touches our interests. Who writes the articles you may be interested 
in? There are more than 3.5 million articles in en.wikipedia today... (among 
which 3-4 started by myself ;-)


 IMHO something is notable if somebody wants to write about it.
 Wikipedia is no printed encyclopedia where you only have limited space..
 something like Wikipedia is *the* chance to collect all kind of knowledge, even
 about stuff you hardly find information about anywhere else.
 But those censors screw it up by deleting all kinds of articles because it's
 not notable or has no accepted sources/references (accepted sources are,
 ironically, mostly dead tree publications).


Agreed. Very much agreed, in fact. Wikipedia is /the/ place for innovation to 
get a chance; probably the only one, even. (esp in our money-driven
civilisation)

Denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 15 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 2/15/11 5:23 AM, spir wrote:

 Agreed. Very much agreed, in fact. Wikipedia is /the/ place for
 innovation to get a chance; probably the only one, even. (esp in our
 money-driven civilisation)


As an aside, it's quite remarkable that such a movement and others 
similar originated in the Capitalist world. History will tell, but I see 
it as possible for the spirit to stay put.

In contrast, in spite of it ostensibly embracing enthusiastic 
volunteerism, Communism has failed to produce lasting trends of such. In 
Romania such a piece of work has been done in 1947 - the 
Bumbesti-Livezeni railroad was done through mostly genuine volunteer 
work. But enthusiasm for the then newly installed (1945) regime faded 
very quickly; the effort has never been replicated, however pallidly. By 
the time I was around, "volunteer labor" was a mandatory chore, and 
people were so used to the concept, they didn't even figure the 
linguistic irony.


Andrei
Feb 15 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 As an aside, it's quite remarkable that such a movement and others 
 similar originated in the Capitalist world. History will tell, but I see 
 it as possible for the spirit to stay put.



It's the internet that has made large scale collaboration and cooperation 
possible. On a smaller scale, it's existed before. There are many volunteer
fire 
departments, and many parks that get created and maintained by armies of
volunteers.

RMS clarified free software, but there was useful free software before his 
movement. DECUS, for example, distributed the best of free software for DEC 
machines back in the 70's. It was a feather in one's cap to have one's software 
picked up by DECUS.
Feb 15 2011
parent reply spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 07:44 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 As an aside, it's quite remarkable that such a movement and others similar
 originated in the Capitalist world. History will tell, but I see it as
 possible for the spirit to stay put.



 It's the internet that has made large scale collaboration and cooperation
 possible. On a smaller scale, it's existed before. There are many volunteer
 fire departments, and many parks that get created and maintained by armies of
 volunteers.

 RMS clarified free software, but there was useful free software before his
 movement. DECUS, for example, distributed the best of free software for DEC
 machines back in the 70's. It was a feather in one's cap to have one's software
 picked up by DECUS.


And this itself was made possible by the fact software /re/production costs are 
neglectable compared to production ones (human competence, time & motivation).
The same applies indeed, even more since the numeric revolution, to most of 
human knowledge and creation. Result of music composition has always been 
(potentially or concretely, depending to laws) freely available good.

Denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 15 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
spir wrote:

 And this itself was made possible by the fact software /re/production 
 costs are neglectable compared to production ones (human competence, 
 time & motivation).
 The same applies indeed, even more since the numeric revolution, to most 
 of human knowledge and creation. Result of music composition has always 
 been (potentially or concretely, depending to laws) freely available good.


I agree. Consider the explosion of knowledge and progress immediately after the 
printing press was invented. Printers were eager for materials to print, and 
compiled manuals on everything they could think of.

It's interesting how the Egyptian revolution is attributed to being enabled by 
the internet; similarly, I don't think the American revolution would have 
happened without the printing press.
Feb 15 2011
prev sibling parent reply spir <denis.spir gmail.com> writes:
On 02/15/2011 09:11 AM, Andrew Wiley wrote:

 When you open that door, useful content gets drowned in
 floods of things like useless biographies and advertisements for
 things no one has heard of.


But who says which are useful? You? Soft-bots? Academics? (who, as Bearophile 
said, are the ones benefitting from status quo and no free-spreading of 
knowledge, if any)
That guy, if sincere, thought the content he asked for deletion was not useful, 
certainly, since it apparently did not get any mention from third-party 
sources. (actually, there lots of articles about some of those Pls, but no one 
had cared about linking to them, so that guy was right)

denis
-- 
_________________
vita es estrany
spir.wikidot.com
Feb 15 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
spir wrote:

 That guy, if sincere, thought the content he asked for deletion was not 
 useful, certainly, since it apparently did not get any mention from 
 third-party sources. (actually, there lots of articles about some of 
 those Pls, but no one had cared about linking to them, so that guy was 
 right)


I think he was quite sincere, and thought he was doing a public service.
Feb 15 2011