• Arne <user domain.invalid> May 15 2008
• Sclytrack <Sclytrack pi.be> May 16 2008
• "Saaa" <empty needmail.com> May 16 2008
• "Vladimir Panteleev" <thecybershadow gmail.com> May 16 2008
• "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> May 16 2008
• Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> May 16 2008
• Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> May 16 2008
• Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> May 16 2008
• Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> May 16 2008
• Tower Ty <tytower hotmail.com.au> May 17 2008
• Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> May 17 2008
• Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> May 17 2008
• BCS <ao pathlink.com> May 17 2008
• Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> May 17 2008
• Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> May 18 2008
• Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> May 17 2008

Arne <user domain.invalid> writes:

Hi all,

thank you for your feedback. Of course we know TIOBE, of course we know Descent
and the other competition. And it's pretty clear that a single person that does
not make it's living from programming D couldn't pay (much) for an commercial
IDE. But thats not the point. The only information that we miss is:

Are there comercial companys that use D? Are there persons that sit 8 hours a
day programming D to make theire living?

Sclytrack <Sclytrack pi.be> writes:

It is too soon for commercial. Ask the question again next year.

There I just saved you from bankruptcy.

"Saaa" <empty needmail.com> writes:

 Are there comercial companys that use D? Are there persons that sit 8 
 hours a day programming D to make theire living?


Yes 

"Vladimir Panteleev" <thecybershadow gmail.com> writes:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 09:21:39 +0300, Arne <user domain.invalid> wrote:

 Are there comercial companys that use D? Are there persons that sit 8 hours a
day programming D to make theire living?


There are (I freelance and program in D whenever I can), but probably less than
you expect.

If you intend to make profit as soon as you release the product, IMHO right now
it's early for a commercial product targeted for developers, because not enough
"suits" know about D for it to have any kind of corporate usage/support. On the
other hand, one of the reasons why this is not happening is the lack of a
stable, productive platform/package with available commercial support. D's
toolchain is currently more than sufficient, but new developers must acquire
and study all the necessary tools to become productive. Currently, I'm not
aware of a package that either contains or can download&install a
compiler+builder, debugger, IDE, additional libraries/packages, etc. - which is
what (IMO) D needs most for quick adoption. Given the speed of D's rising
popularity and depending on the development time, your IDE might hit the market
at just the right moment.

-- 
Best regards,
  Vladimir                          mailto:thecybershadow gmail.com

"Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:

"Vladimir Panteleev" <thecybershadow gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:op.ua9fq9qam02fvl cybershadow...
 On Fri, 16 May 2008 09:21:39 +0300, Arne <user domain.invalid> wrote:

 Are there comercial companys that use D? Are there persons that sit 8 
 hours a day programming D to make theire living?


 There are (I freelance and program in D whenever I can), but probably less 
 than you expect.

 If you intend to make profit as soon as you release the product, IMHO 
 right now it's early for a commercial product targeted for developers, 
 because not enough "suits" know about D for it to have any kind of 
 corporate usage/support. On the other hand, one of the reasons why this is 
 not happening is the lack of a stable, productive platform/package with 
 available commercial support. D's toolchain is currently more than 
 sufficient, but new developers must acquire and study all the necessary 
 tools to become productive. Currently, I'm not aware of a package that 
 either contains or can download&install a compiler+builder, debugger, IDE, 
 additional libraries/packages, etc. - which is what (IMO) D needs most for 
 quick adoption. Given the speed of D's rising popularity and depending on 
 the development time, your IDE might hit the market at just the right 
 moment.


Sorry for this "me too" post, but I have to say: Vladimir hit the nail 
squarely on the head here. This is exactly correct on the state of things 
and what needs to happen. 

Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:

Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 Currently, I'm
 not aware of a package that either contains or can download&install a
 compiler+builder, debugger, IDE, additional libraries/packages, etc.
 - which is what (IMO) D needs most for quick adoption. 


There is the thing the Chris Miller the Newer has put together. 
Windows-only though.

--bb

Georg Wrede <georg nospam.org> writes:

Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Fri, 16 May 2008 09:21:39 +0300, Arne <user domain.invalid> wrote:
 
 Given the speed of D's rising popularity and depending on the
 development time, your IDE might hit the market at just the right
 moment.


I have to agree.

Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:

Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 Given the
 speed of D's rising popularity and depending on the development time,
 your IDE might hit the market at just the right moment.


When I first started on a C++ compiler, there wasn't much interest in 
C++. When it was done, I got lucky and it hit the market right with the 
rising interest (and I believe that the Zortech C++ was a big factor in 
that rise in popularity and C++ gaining critical mass). The competition 
was caught flat-footed, and it took them years to catch up.

Which was great for Zortech, they made a lot of money.

If you wait for everyone else to get on the dance floor first, then you 
have to share :-)

Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 02:21:39 -0400, Arne wrote:

 Hi all,
 
 thank you for your feedback. Of course we know TIOBE, of course we know
 Descent and the other competition. And it's pretty clear that a single
 person that does not make it's living from programming D couldn't pay
 (much) for an commercial IDE. But thats not the point. The only
 information that we miss is:
 
 Are there comercial companys that use D? Are there persons that sit 8
 hours a day programming D to make theire living?


I'm agreeing with Vladimir, right now there is no market for a commercial 
IDE. D is gaining popularity, it is getting lots of good press and some 
bad. Complaints come around that D is missing this market, that it hasn't 
been polished enough to be used by anyone, see any of Ty Towers posts. 
And I'm sure that most everyone here would love to be able to push their 
employers to switch, but without a commercial IDE it is harder.

The point is you aren't likely to be making money with in the next year 
or two. Once you have completed it, you might have to keep it updated to 
the latest language features even if your not rolling in the dough. It 
might be important to consider if your company could eat the cost of 
development, I think there will be a market coming for D, but it could 
take awhile.

Oh and as mentioned before, good debugging support there really isn't 
much to support D's features yet.

Tower Ty <tytower hotmail.com.au> writes:

Jesse Phillips Wrote:

 I'm agreeing with Vladimir, right now there is no market for a commercial 
 IDE. D is gaining popularity, it is getting lots of good press and some 
 bad. Complaints come around that D is missing this market, that it hasn't 
 been polished enough to be used by anyone, see any of Ty Towers posts. 
 And I'm sure that most everyone here would love to be able to push their 
 employers to switch, but without a commercial IDE it is harder.
 
 The point is you aren't likely to be making money with in the next year 
 or two. Once you have completed it, you might have to keep it updated to 
 the latest language features even if your not rolling in the dough. It 
 might be important to consider if your company could eat the cost of 
 development, I think there will be a market coming for D, but it could 
 take awhile.



Exaggeration  indeed .  I answer the question honestly withwhat  I have seen   

I have not seen any evidence of  usage by even 200 people as yet.
I have not seen evidence of any appreciable development work being undertaken
at this time except on DWT . 
I don't know but I don't think the development team is very big ,possibly only
a handful .

D looks like an easily understandable and potentially very useable programming
language , simplifying a lot of the confusing superfluous stuff of other
languages.

By the same token getting in at the start can put you ahead of the game as
Walter added in his post above and  as much as I bitch  I would still recommend
a student study it . Valuable pointer to the future. You just have to ignore
the possessive protectionists who frequent the forums

Can't see how anyone could make a buck from another IDE for D

Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:

Jesse Phillips wrote:

 On Sat, 17 May 2008 07:54:53 -0400, Tower  Ty wrote:
 
 Jesse Phillips Wrote:
 
 I'm agreeing with Vladimir, right now there is no market for a
 commercial IDE. D is gaining popularity, it is getting lots of good
 press and some bad. Complaints come around that D is missing this
 market, that it hasn't been polished enough to be used by anyone, see
 any of Ty Towers posts. And I'm sure that most everyone here would love
 to be able to push their employers to switch, but without a commercial
 IDE it is harder.
 
 The point is you aren't likely to be making money with in the next year
 or two. Once you have completed it, you might have to keep it updated
 to the latest language features even if your not rolling in the dough.
 It might be important to consider if your company could eat the cost of
 development, I think there will be a market coming for D, but it could
 take awhile.


 
 Exaggeration  indeed .  I answer the question honestly withwhat  I have
 seen
 
 I have not seen any evidence of  usage by even 200 people as yet. I have
 not seen evidence of any appreciable development work being undertaken
 at this time except on DWT . I don't know but I don't think the
 development team is very big ,possibly only a handful .
 
 D looks like an easily understandable and potentially very useable
 programming language , simplifying a lot of the confusing superfluous
 stuff of other languages.
 
 By the same token getting in at the start can put you ahead of the game
 as Walter added in his post above and  as much as I bitch  I would still
 recommend a student study it . Valuable pointer to the future. You just
 have to ignore the possessive protectionists who frequent the forums
 
 Can't see how anyone could make a buck from another IDE for D


 I agree, you did answer based on your observations, but I don't feel that
 I misrepresented your complaints either. You were correct in that there
 aren't the numbers to justify their time, right now. My post more about
 D's potential much like Walter's, though I don't know why my post was so
 late as I posted before 8. I wasn't trying to attack you, many share your
 views, but they aren't using D.


Considering that close to a 100 peoples (just names I know, there are others
without names) contributed to Tango so far, there definately are far more D
users out there than 200 - and most companies using D for commercial
development won't tell you in public. So whatever goes on in these news
group is _not_ accountable for even a small portion of total D activity.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:

Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
 Considering that close to a 100 peoples (just names I know, there are others
 without names) contributed to Tango so far, there definately are far more D
 users out there than 200 - and most companies using D for commercial
 development won't tell you in public. So whatever goes on in these news
 group is _not_ accountable for even a small portion of total D activity.


I suspect that probably about 20-25 times as many people lurk in this 
n.g. rather than post in it. The ratio of users to developers to 
contribute to Tango is probably much, much higher.

BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:

Reply to Walter,

 Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
 
 Considering that close to a 100 peoples (just names I know, there are
 others without names) contributed to Tango so far, there definately
 are far more D users out there than 200 - and most companies using D
 for commercial development won't tell you in public. So whatever goes
 on in these news group is _not_ accountable for even a small portion
 of total D activity.
 


 n.g. rather than post in it. The ratio of users to developers to
 contribute to Tango is probably much, much higher.
 


anyway we can get ballpark number on the IP counts for the NG downloads, 
dmd.zip downloads or svn.dsource.org?

Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:

On Sat, 17 May 2008 07:54:53 -0400, Tower  Ty wrote:

 Jesse Phillips Wrote:
 
 I'm agreeing with Vladimir, right now there is no market for a
 commercial IDE. D is gaining popularity, it is getting lots of good
 press and some bad. Complaints come around that D is missing this
 market, that it hasn't been polished enough to be used by anyone, see
 any of Ty Towers posts. And I'm sure that most everyone here would love
 to be able to push their employers to switch, but without a commercial
 IDE it is harder.
 
 The point is you aren't likely to be making money with in the next year
 or two. Once you have completed it, you might have to keep it updated
 to the latest language features even if your not rolling in the dough.
 It might be important to consider if your company could eat the cost of
 development, I think there will be a market coming for D, but it could
 take awhile.


 
 Exaggeration  indeed .  I answer the question honestly withwhat  I have
 seen
 
 I have not seen any evidence of  usage by even 200 people as yet. I have
 not seen evidence of any appreciable development work being undertaken
 at this time except on DWT . I don't know but I don't think the
 development team is very big ,possibly only a handful .
 
 D looks like an easily understandable and potentially very useable
 programming language , simplifying a lot of the confusing superfluous
 stuff of other languages.
 
 By the same token getting in at the start can put you ahead of the game
 as Walter added in his post above and  as much as I bitch  I would still
 recommend a student study it . Valuable pointer to the future. You just
 have to ignore the possessive protectionists who frequent the forums
 
 Can't see how anyone could make a buck from another IDE for D


I agree, you did answer based on your observations, but I don't feel that 
I misrepresented your complaints either. You were correct in that there 
aren't the numbers to justify their time, right now. My post more about 
D's potential much like Walter's, though I don't know why my post was so 
late as I posted before 8. I wasn't trying to attack you, many share your 
views, but they aren't using D.

Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:

On Sat, 17 May 2008 18:28:27 +0200, Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 Jesse Phillips wrote:
 
 On Sat, 17 May 2008 07:54:53 -0400, Tower  Ty wrote:
 
 Jesse Phillips Wrote:
 
 I'm agreeing with Vladimir, right now there is no market for a
 commercial IDE. D is gaining popularity, it is getting lots of good
 press and some bad. Complaints come around that D is missing this
 market, that it hasn't been polished enough to be used by anyone, see
 any of Ty Towers posts. And I'm sure that most everyone here would
 love to be able to push their employers to switch, but without a
 commercial IDE it is harder.
 
 The point is you aren't likely to be making money with in the next
 year or two. Once you have completed it, you might have to keep it
 updated to the latest language features even if your not rolling in
 the dough. It might be important to consider if your company could
 eat the cost of development, I think there will be a market coming
 for D, but it could take awhile.


 
 Exaggeration  indeed .  I answer the question honestly withwhat  I
 have seen
 
 I have not seen any evidence of  usage by even 200 people as yet. I
 have not seen evidence of any appreciable development work being
 undertaken at this time except on DWT . I don't know but I don't think
 the development team is very big ,possibly only a handful .
 
 D looks like an easily understandable and potentially very useable
 programming language , simplifying a lot of the confusing superfluous
 stuff of other languages.
 
 By the same token getting in at the start can put you ahead of the
 game as Walter added in his post above and  as much as I bitch  I
 would still recommend a student study it . Valuable pointer to the
 future. You just have to ignore the possessive protectionists who
 frequent the forums
 
 Can't see how anyone could make a buck from another IDE for D


 I agree, you did answer based on your observations, but I don't feel
 that I misrepresented your complaints either. You were correct in that
 there aren't the numbers to justify their time, right now. My post more
 about D's potential much like Walter's, though I don't know why my post
 was so late as I posted before 8. I wasn't trying to attack you, many
 share your views, but they aren't using D.


 Considering that close to a 100 peoples (just names I know, there are
 others without names) contributed to Tango so far, there definately are
 far more D users out there than 200 - and most companies using D for
 commercial development won't tell you in public. So whatever goes on in
 these news group is _not_ accountable for even a small portion of total
 D activity.


Oh, I realize that who is seen is not the number of users, but 200, 300 
or 1000 users really isn't that much. The number of users that are 
willing to purchase the product is only going to be a fraction of that 
number. If you charge $50 for it you might only get 20% to buy it, if you 
increase the price the percentage will drop. You need the correct 
percentage/user ratio to get your money back.

I'm sure you already know this, and it is good to know that there has 
been a good number of contributors to Tango, and I'm sure Arne likes to 
hear that.

Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:

Arne wrote:

 Hi all,
 
 thank you for your feedback. Of course we know TIOBE, of course we know
 Descent and the other competition. And it's pretty clear that a single
 person that does not make it's living from programming D couldn't pay
 (much) for an commercial IDE. But thats not the point. The only
 information that we miss is:
 
 Are there comercial companys that use D? Are there persons that sit 8
 hours a day programming D to make theire living?


Yes.

As to whether there are enough of those to make the work worth it for you,
hard to say. I'd say there is a hen-and-chicken situation, and companies
like yours will have to step up to resolve it. A good IDE (and complete
toolchain) will help fulfill the prophecy of the coming of D. Saying "wait
another year" will leave D dead in the water.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango