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digitalmars.D - Promoting TutorialsPoint's D tutorial

reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
First I'd like to say the Dlang-Tour is a very good idea.

Personally, *everytime* I push the "next" button I'm surprised 
there is *only* 1 example, while I'd expect at least 3 or 4 
examples showing :
1. how to declare, use and print variables, including strings, 
slices and maps.
2. how to declare imperative functions
3. how to declare classes with attributes and methods
4. how to call functions and methods with the same dot notation, 
with or without parentheses

Anyway, that's not what I wanted to say in this post.

My point is that when you arrive to the further reading, you are 
invited to buy Ali's book :

"Basic resources

     New to programming? This book is a great starting place for 
beginners"

I've no problem with that, but would it be possible to consider 
adding also a link to this tutorial in the same paragraph ?

https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/

It's not because TutorialsPoint pay me, but because it may be one 
of the best D tutorials out there for both beginner D programmers.

And honestly, at the moment it's not really that easy to reach 
this tutorial from the dlang website.

First you have to push on "Tutorials", then in the middle of the 
page you see a boring flat grey icon with this text beside :

"D programming
Unknown
January 1, 2015
A nice introductory tutorial to D programming. Available on-line 
and in the PDF format.
Website"

The text is fine, but unfortunately the impersonal icon and text 
("D programming") aren't that inviting...

If you don't want to put the link on the "Further reading page", 
maybe would you consider putting this nice tutorial for beginners 
just under the four official D books, before the more advanced 
readings ?

I guess many beginner D programmers will thank you :)

Because a few month ago I've been that beginner D programmer, and 
sadly I've completely missed this perfect tutorial. And I've just 
explained you why...

So why not supposing other programmers will have the same 
problem, and maybe miss it just like me ?
Aug 26 2017
next sibling parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
And btw, I actually consider this tutorial more like the fifth D 
book.

Because once you download the PDF, honestly it's quite close to a 
real printed book.

Hence my suggestion to put it AT LEAST under the four official 
books.

I know it's not perfect. It could be simpler at some places, and 
more complete here and there.

But it's quite good, easy to download, and maybe the best D book 
0 dollars can buy you (unless you are kind enough and can afford 
to pay for it).
Aug 26 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 08/27/2017 12:26 AM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 My point is that when you arrive to the further reading, you are invited 
 to buy Ali's book :


You can read Ali's book online for free.

[...]

 I've no problem with that, but would it be possible to consider adding 
 also a link to this tutorial in the same paragraph ?
 
 https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/


I'd vote against that. It seems poorly written.

* There are multiple grammatical errors in the first paragraph alone.
* The hello work example is repeated multiple times on the first pages, 
always with a pointless `args` parameter on `main`.
* The download links go to 2.064.2, which is several years old.
* The "first D program" has the line `writeln("test!");`. Its output is 
given as "test", missing the exclamation mark.

As far as I see, it's just not good.
Aug 26 2017
prev sibling next sibling parent 12345swordy <alexanderheistermann gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 August 2017 at 22:26:00 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 First I'd like to say the Dlang-Tour is a very good idea.

 Personally, *everytime* I push the "next" button I'm surprised 
 there is *only* 1 example, while I'd expect at least 3 or 4 
 examples showing :
 1. how to declare, use and print variables, including strings, 
 slices and maps.
 2. how to declare imperative functions
 3. how to declare classes with attributes and methods
 4. how to call functions and methods with the same dot 
 notation, with or without parentheses

 Anyway, that's not what I wanted to say in this post.

 My point is that when you arrive to the further reading, you 
 are invited to buy Ali's book :

 "Basic resources

     New to programming? This book is a great starting place for 
 beginners"

 I've no problem with that, but would it be possible to consider 
 adding also a link to this tutorial in the same paragraph ?

 https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/

 It's not because TutorialsPoint pay me, but because it may be 
 one of the best D tutorials out there for both beginner D 
 programmers.

 And honestly, at the moment it's not really that easy to reach 
 this tutorial from the dlang website.

 First you have to push on "Tutorials", then in the middle of 
 the page you see a boring flat grey icon with this text beside :

 "D programming
 Unknown
 January 1, 2015
 A nice introductory tutorial to D programming. Available 
 on-line and in the PDF format.
 Website"

 The text is fine, but unfortunately the impersonal icon and 
 text ("D programming") aren't that inviting...

 If you don't want to put the link on the "Further reading 
 page", maybe would you consider putting this nice tutorial for 
 beginners just under the four official D books, before the more 
 advanced readings ?

 I guess many beginner D programmers will thank you :)

 Because a few month ago I've been that beginner D programmer, 
 and sadly I've completely missed this perfect tutorial. And 
 I've just explained you why...

 So why not supposing other programmers will have the same 
 problem, and maybe miss it just like me ?


The tutorial needs to cover advance topics such as manual memory 
management and the standard phobos library. It only scratchs the 
surface of the D programming language and it is not showing how 
powerful that D is, when it comes to the template programming 
when comparing to c++ template programming.
Aug 26 2017
prev sibling parent reply Ryion <ryion 4210x.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 August 2017 at 22:26:00 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I've no problem with that, but would it be possible to consider 
 adding also a link to this tutorial in the same paragraph ?

 https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/

 It's not because TutorialsPoint pay me, but because it may be 
 one of the best D tutorials out there for both beginner D 
 programmers.

 And honestly, at the moment it's not really that easy to reach 
 this tutorial from the dlang website.

 First you have to push on "Tutorials", then in the middle of 
 the page you see a boring flat grey icon with this text beside :

 "D programming
 Unknown
 January 1, 2015
 A nice introductory tutorial to D programming. Available 
 on-line and in the PDF format.
 Website"

 The text is fine, but unfortunately the impersonal icon and 
 text ("D programming") aren't that inviting...

 If you don't want to put the link on the "Further reading 
 page", maybe would you consider putting this nice tutorial for 
 beginners just under the four official D books, before the more 
 advanced readings ?

 I guess many beginner D programmers will thank you :)

 Because a few month ago I've been that beginner D programmer, 
 and sadly I've completely missed this perfect tutorial. And 
 I've just explained you why...

 So why not supposing other programmers will have the same 
 problem, and maybe miss it just like me ?


No, i have the same issue with the website. Tutorialspoint may 
have issues as ag0aep6g pointed out but its very much to the 
point. I prefer to look up information on tutorialspoint compared 
to the D website.

Lets say Arrays:

* D website starts with Pointers, then Static Arrays, then 
Dynamic Arrays then ... A person may simply say: "I just want to 
know how to write a array, i do not need a tutorial talking about 
the different types, because most of my work is simply standard 
arrays".

Instead of splitting the information in different chapters, its 
so much text on a single page. Tutorialspoint simply shows the 
basic information and that is what i need 90% of the time.

How about Modules:

* D website starts with a big blog of texts Module, 
ModuleDeclaration DeclDefs DeclDefs. What am i reading. Chinese? 
By the time you see the visual text how to declare a module, you 
are already 2 pages down.

Tutorialspoint simply shows how to declare modules. Basic, fast 
...


Tutorialspoint indeed misses a lot of information but D website 
has unreadable information overload. Useful for people who have 
time to read half a day but as somebody programming and wanting 
to quickly look up information. D website is not useful. Its 
actually counter intuative.

It feels academic in design, not functional. You expect to get 
simple example and the more advanced items under "advanced".

I have the same issue with the Library. The flow of information 
is bad, too much walls of text, with too much assumption that the 
programmer reading it is familiar with the more advanced features 
or programming knowledge. Links and references to variables that 
frankly, are unneeded. If it takes 15 minutes to know in 
std.parallelism that you can not get a thread ID in a simply 
way... then the purpose as a information source fails.

A simple:

https://dlang.org/phobos/std_datetime_date.html

Why do you need to wade past 2 pages for

jan
feb
mar
apr
may
jun
jul
aug
sep
oct
nov
dec
sun

mon
tue
wed
thu
fri
sat
...

Then the whole Jump to: 2, Jump to: 2, Jump to: 2 ...

Function naming...

Expect: bool validTimeUnits(string[] units...);

Gets: pure nothrow  safe bool validTimeUnits(string[] units...);

... Visual noise that is not important. Details like that need to 
be in a sub page.

People care about the function, parameter, return type. The rest 
is "advanced" and only useful under specific sitations.

After months i still do not use the library/documentation. I end 
up googling for examples or use tutorialspoint for some quick 
basic lookup's. If i am really stuck i may go into the library 
and get frustrated with the wall of text. Its is too much a time 
sink, while its supposed to be a help.

I do not know how to explain it but the documentation is at times 
more frustrating then the issue i am trying to solve. If i had to 
give a score, the D documentation is at best 4/10. Its not the 
lack of information but the simply bad presentation, overflow of 
information where you do not need it. No clear separation. Mobile 
friendly it is NOT. Even 4K friendly it also not. And plenty of 
other issues.
Aug 26 2017
next sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 August 2017 at 23:53:27 UTC, Ryion wrote:

 I have the same issue with the Library. The flow of information 
 is bad, too much walls of text, with too much assumption that


Have you tried my alternative? It is the same content (well it 
lags a version or two cuz i haven't updated my computer yet) but 
laid out differently.

http://dpldocs.info/

http://dpldocs.info/experimental-docs/std.stdio.html
for example
Aug 26 2017
parent Ryion <ryion 4210x.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 00:05:00 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 August 2017 at 23:53:27 UTC, Ryion wrote:

 I have the same issue with the Library. The flow of 
 information is bad, too much walls of text, with too much 
 assumption that


 Have you tried my alternative? It is the same content (well it 
 lags a version or two cuz i haven't updated my computer yet) 
 but laid out differently.

 http://dpldocs.info/

 http://dpldocs.info/experimental-docs/std.stdio.html
 for example


It looks a lot better Adam, especially compared to the D website 
design. I am even willing to bet that it has much better results 
with Search Engines, because it has separate pages.

In my opinion its much more inline with my expectation for a 
programming language documentation. Nice job Adam! Going to 
bookmark it and use that as my reference.
Aug 27 2017
prev sibling parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 08/27/2017 01:53 AM, Ryion wrote:

 * D website starts with a big blog of texts Module, ModuleDeclaration 
 DeclDefs DeclDefs. What am i reading. Chinese?


You're reading the spec. Teaching is not the spec's first priority. It's 
not a tutorial or a programming textbook.

Have you tried Ali's book? The page on modules is here:

http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/modules.html

Wait a second. Large parts of that are word-for-word the same as on the 
tutorialspoint page [1]. Looks like one of the authors copied from the 
other one. From the bad impression I've got of tutorialspoint, I'd guess 
that they copied from Ali.


[1] https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/d_programming_modules.htm
Aug 26 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
 You're reading the spec. Teaching is not the spec's first 
 priority. It's not a tutorial or a programming textbook.

 Have you tried Ali's book? The page on modules is here:

 http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/modules.html

 Wait a second. Large parts of that are word-for-word the same 
 as on the tutorialspoint page [1]. Looks like one of the 
 authors copied from the other one. From the bad impression I've 
 got of tutorialspoint, I'd guess that they copied from Ali.


 [1] 
 https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/d_programming_modules.htm


Ok I understand your point.

But sorry to repeat myself, but IMO, for D beginners, dlang.org 
is at best, a labyrinth, at worst, a complete mess.

Very honestly.

https://tour.dlang.org/

I'm still convinced that this page is tweaked to become the new 
main landing page.

"Welcome to D

What is D?

D is the culmination of decades of experience implementing 
compilers for many diverse languages and has a unique set of 
features:

     high level constructs for great modeling power
     high performance, compiled language
     static typing
     direct interface to the operating system API's and hardware
     blazingly fast compile-times
     memory-safe subset (SafeD)
     maintainable, easy to understand code
     gradual learning curve (C-like syntax, similar to Java and 
others)
     compatible with C application binary interface
     limited compatibility with C++ application binary interface
     multi-paradigm (imperative, structured, object oriented, 
generic, functional programming purity, and even assembly)
     built-in error detection (contracts, unittests)

... and many more {features}.

Take a tour

Want to try D online ? Simply click on the "run" button (or 
Ctrl-enter) below the example on the right to compile and run it. 
And the example can be freely edited if you want to experiment 
with D programming.

If you want to see other examples, click on the "next" button 
below to see the next example of the dlang-tour.

Further readings

* New to programming? Learn programming quickly and easily with 
the D language, using these freely downloadable books :

   * {http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html}
   * {https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/}

* Already an experienced programmer? ...

etc"

Just add the 4 examples I suggested, and you have a brand-new 
beginner-friendly website without changing anything else to the 
website canvas.
Aug 27 2017
next sibling parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:26:58 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

[...]

 Just add the 4 examples I suggested, and you have a brand-new 
 beginner-friendly website without changing anything else to the 
 website canvas.


If you want a change in D's web presence submit a PR to [1] or 
one of [2] as appropriate.

[1] https://github.com/dlang/dlang.org
[2] https://github.com/dlang-tour
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:36:57 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:26:58 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

[...]

 Just add the 4 examples I suggested, and you have a brand-new 
 beginner-friendly website without changing anything else to 
 the website canvas.


 If you want a change in D's web presence submit a PR to [1] or 
 one of [2] as appropriate.

 [1] https://github.com/dlang/dlang.org
 [2] https://github.com/dlang-tour


No problem, but first I'd like to have the design changes 
validated prior to making them.

That's how web developers do with their customers.

1. suggest the changes
2. have the changes accepted
3. make the changes

Because there is no interest in making changes that won't be 
accepted eventually...
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:36:57 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:26:58 UTC, Ecstatic Coder 
 wrote:

[...]

 Just add the 4 examples I suggested, and you have a brand-new 
 beginner-friendly website without changing anything else to 
 the website canvas.


 If you want a change in D's web presence submit a PR to [1] or 
 one of [2] as appropriate.

 [1] https://github.com/dlang/dlang.org
 [2] https://github.com/dlang-tour


 No problem, but first I'd like to have the design changes 
 validated prior to making them.

 That's how web developers do with their customers.

 1. suggest the changes
 2. have the changes accepted
 3. make the changes


Unless I've missed you being contracted to do these changes, this 
model doesn't apply. It's not other people who want you to do 
some work (and as they are paying you have a vested interest in 
evaluating it), it's you who wants changes.


 Because there is no interest in making changes that won't be 
 accepted eventually...


To be frank, this is how things usually get done in open source 
(outside of corporate interests):
One commits to doing something, does it, then asks for people to 
review the result, and finally tries to get it accepted.
One does this often enough successfully in a particular group of 
people and one earns recognition by their group peers 
(reputation).
Starting and/or participating in discussions can be valuable to 
the community and may yield reputation, as well, but one can't 
realistically expect receiving preapproval for ideas unless one 
has proven to actually follow through on them and contribute 
tangible results.

[1] And you do this often enough successfully in a particular 
project you earn recognition there
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
I agree, but here it's not a local modification I've done to a D 
library that I want to push so that other people can use it too.

It's a change to the main landing page of the dlang.org website, 
which is by definition global and can ONLY be validated by those 
in charge of it.

If those people in charge like the idea, then it's fine by me to 
translate the idea into physical changes through a PR.

But if not, it's a complete loss of time, and sorry to say it, 
but from what I've seen, there are VERY LITTLE chances these 
changes gets validated.

I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till 
now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.

And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change over 
and over, because I'm totally convinced that those changes to the 
dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.

That's what the other languages do, it works well for them, and 
NO, I don't see the advantages in doing the opposite of what 
works well for the others.

It's not plagiarism, it's just common sense...
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 13:12:22 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I agree, but here it's not a local modification I've done to a 
 D library that I want to push so that other people can use it 
 too.

 It's a change to the main landing page of the dlang.org 
 website, which is by definition global and can ONLY be 
 validated by those in charge of it.


Which - as I've pointed out - is much likelier to occur if you 
open a PR.


 If those people in charge like the idea, then it's fine by me 
 to translate the idea into physical changes through a PR.


That's your prerogative, but preapproval is extremely unlikely to 
occur.


 But if not, it's a complete loss of time, and sorry to say it, 
 but from what I've seen, there are VERY LITTLE chances these 
 changes gets validated.

 I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till 
 now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this 
 time.


Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the 
website looks like.


 And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change 
 over and over, because I'm totally convinced that those changes 
 to the dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.


I haven't called it anything, yet, but if I were to call it 
something, it would be insanity, because I see no causal link 
between proposing the same thing repeatedly and other peoples' 
interests.
I'm reasonably confident it would've taken you less time to do 
that PR than writing your posts on this topic and reading 
peoples' replies already took from you; the difference between 
the two being that you're no closer to getting your changes 
through right now (or even receiving a definite answer), whereas 
if you had opened the PR you could've already moved on to the 
next thing of interest to you, instead of remaining in the 
current loop of "post idea" -> "wait -> "don't get preapproval" 
-> "wait" -> ...
If you open a PR, it's likely to eventually receive a review that 
will either result in rejection, merging, or a discussion. In 
either case, you're free to pursue other things in the meantime 
and as long as the PR remains open, the changes aren't lost.


 That's what the other languages do, it works well for them, and 
 NO, I don't see the advantages in doing the opposite of what 
 works well for the others.


And if you want to see change, it'll take you to champion it via 
a PR (and defending it in the resulting discussion).


 It's not plagiarism, it's just common sense...


No idea why you think I would care, since programming languages 
have always been about copying good stuff from others.
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
 I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till 
 now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this 
 time.


 Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the 
 website looks like.


Ok, message received. At least I've got my answer for the PR. 
Thanks for your honesty. Sincerely.

Now, to be 100% honest with you, I'm still convinced it DOES 
matter, because many people who have heard about D, whether it's 
in a conference, on a blog or article or by a colleague, will 
eventually land on the main page of this website.

Then they will have to decide if they install the compiler and 
learn D, or not.

And I'm pretty sure many won't, for the reasons explained.

Now you know EXACTLY, to the smallest detail, what I would 
personally do to fix that...


 And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change 
 over and over, because I'm totally convinced that those 
 changes to the dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.


 I haven't called it anything, yet, but if I were to call it 
 something, it would be insanity, because I see no causal link 
 between proposing the same thing repeatedly and other peoples' 
 interests.


LOL. Ok so let's be insane once again... ;)

My proposal is to :

1. Say "Welcome"

2. Show how D is nice, ending with a link to the feature page

3. Show how simple D code looks like, using 4 well chosen 
examples, with the first on the right of the main page.

4. Show how easy it is to learn D.

5. Show how easy it is to install DMD and a simple editor like 
CoEdit on any win/mac/linux computer.

In practice, the landing page should be something like that :

"Welcome to D

What is D?

D is the culmination of decades of experience implementing 
compilers for many diverse languages and has a unique set of 
features:

     high level constructs for great modeling power
     high performance, compiled language
     static typing
     direct interface to the operating system API's and hardware
     blazingly fast compile-times
     memory-safe subset (SafeD)
     maintainable, easy to understand code
     gradual learning curve (C-like syntax, similar to Java and 
others)
     compatible with C application binary interface
     limited compatibility with C++ application binary interface
     multi-paradigm (imperative, structured, object oriented, 
generic, functional programming purity, and even assembly)
     built-in error detection (contracts, unittests)

... and many more {features}.

Take a tour

Want to try D online ? Simply click on the "run" button (or 
Ctrl-enter) below the example on the right to compile and run it. 
And the example can be freely edited if you want to experiment 
with D programming.

If you want to see other examples, click on the "next" button 
below to see the next example of the dlang-tour.

Further readings

* New to programming? Learn programming quickly and easily with 
the D language, using these freely downloadable books :

   * {http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html}
   * {https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/}

* Already an experienced programmer? ...

   * etc etc ...

Installing D

...

* {https://dlang.org/download.html}

* {https://github.com/BBasile/Coedit}"

Four D examples for the Dlang-Tour :

   * How to declare, use and print variables (bool, int, float, 
string, int[], int[string]).
   * How to declare imperative functions
   * How to declare classes with attributes and methods
   * How to call functions and methods with the dot notation, with 
or without parentheses

Still not convinced ?

No problem, I don't even know why I care in making D grows its 
community to have more money, and thus more manpower to get 
improved, while the current version is already perfect to my 
personal scripting needs.

Anyway, feel free to copy-paste the changes I've suggested, they 
are 100% free to use...
Aug 27 2017
next sibling parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:07:27 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers 
 till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok 
 this time.


 Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the 
 website looks like.


 Ok, message received.


Considering what follows, I'm not sure about that, but OK.


 At least I've got my answer for the PR.


Not sure what you mean here, unless you've opened a PR and I 
missed it?
My personal interests have nothing to do with whether a PR would 
get accepted or not by the people in charge of the website, so I 
can't see how you got "your answer for the PR".


 Thanks for your honesty. Sincerely.

 Now, to be 100% honest with you, I'm still convinced it DOES 
 matter, because many people who have heard about D, whether 
 it's in a conference, on a blog or article or by a colleague, 
 will eventually land on the main page of this website.

 Then they will have to decide if they install the compiler and 
 learn D, or not.

 And I'm pretty sure many won't, for the reasons explained.


That a possibility, but I don't care about whether or not they do.
I care about the quality of D itself as a PL, which in my 
(heavily) biased opinion won't be impacted by people who base 
their tool choices on website design.


 Now you know EXACTLY, to the smallest detail, what I would 
 personally do to fix that...


So what's stopping you other than pre approval?


 And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change 
 over and over, because I'm totally convinced that those 
 changes to the dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.


 I haven't called it anything, yet, but if I were to call it 
 something, it would be insanity, because I see no causal link 
 between proposing the same thing repeatedly and other peoples' 
 interests.


 LOL. Ok so let's be insane once again... ;)

 My proposal is to :

 [...]


As I said, you aren't going to change my interests (and I'm 
reasonable convinced you won't change other peoples', either). 
The only reason I replied initially was so that whatever the 
prevalent idea was had a chance not to die off in the forum like 
most others who don't have a champion; the particulars of the 
topic itself weren't relevant to me.
What you do with that is up to you.


 Still not convinced ?


Convinced of what, exactly?


 [...]

 Anyway, feel free to copy-paste the changes I've suggested, 
 they are 100% free to use...


Thanks, but as I pointed out, the website's design is of no 
interest to me personally.
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Ryion <ryion 4210x.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:51:00 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:

 Thanks, but as I pointed out, the website's design is of no 
 interest to me personally.



 As I said, you aren't going to change my interests (and I'm 
 reasonable convinced you won't change other peoples', either).



 Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the 
 website looks like.


This whole topic is about improving the website. The fact that 
you are already a well versed D programmer that sees no 
usefulness in actually improving the readability of the site is 
irrelevant.

The constant repeating that it does not interest you, simply 
discourages people. Same with pointing out that ( you think ) he 
can not change other people his minds. I personally think he is 
right and the site is not information friendly. Lots of content 
does not mean its useful if that content is badly presented.

If somebody is spending a lot of time simply writing issues that 
they think can be improved, let them try. Even if it dies later 
in the topic.

If this topic did not exist, i will not have found out that Adam 
has a experimental library, that hands over heels wins compared 
to the current massive text blob. Even if its a few versions 
behind, its way more clean and easy to use the what is now on the 
website.

http://dpldocs.info/experimental-docs/std.html

So at minimum one positive thing came from the topic.
Aug 27 2017
parent Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 19:29:03 UTC, Ryion wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:51:00 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner 
 wrote:

 Thanks, but as I pointed out, the website's design is of no 
 interest to me personally.



 As I said, you aren't going to change my interests (and I'm 
 reasonable convinced you won't change other peoples', either).



 Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the 
 website looks like.


 This whole topic is about improving the website. The fact that 
 you are already a well versed D programmer that sees no 
 usefulness in actually improving the readability of the site is 
 irrelevant.


That's a strawmen, since I didn't voice an opinion about it's 
usefulness. I said it doesn't interest me; what *does* interest 
me is trying to ensure that peoples' ideas don't have to die off 
in the forum, i.e. that they know (if they have the time and 
interest) what to do in order for them to be incorporated.


 The constant repeating that it does not interest you, simply 
 discourages people.


If you recall my initial post, all I did was point out the places 
to send a PR to if he wants the changes to be incorporated. 
W.r.t. expressing my disinterest in the particulars of the topic: 
I've only done so when I judged him to attempt to engage me about 
them in a way where just not replying would've been rude.


 Same with pointing out that ( you think ) he can not change 
 other people his minds.


My (apparently too implicit) point was that he shouldn't have to 
care about what I, or others, are interested in. If he cares 
about it and has the time and will to do it (which so far I've 
not seen a contrary statement of his to), the way to go is to 
make a PR, because that'll (eventually) yield an official 
reaction by the appropriate people.


 I personally think he is right and the site is not information 
 friendly. Lots of content does not mean its useful if that 
 content is badly presented.


You don't seem to want me to express my (dis)interest in the 
particulars of the topic, yet you respond to me in a way that's 
designed to elicit that response from me. I find that confusing.


 If somebody is spending a lot of time simply writing issues 
 that they think can be improved, let them try. Even if it dies 
 later in the topic.


Why do you imply that I'm trying to stop someone?


 If this topic did not exist, i will not have found out that 
 Adam has a experimental library, that hands over heels wins 
 compared to the current massive text blob. Even if its a few 
 versions behind, its way more clean and easy to use the what is 
 now on the website.

 http://dpldocs.info/experimental-docs/std.html

 So at minimum one positive thing came from the topic.


That's why one of my earlier responses contained


 Starting and/or participating in discussions can be valuable 
 to the community
Aug 27 2017
prev sibling parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 08/27/2017 08:07 PM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till now to 
 the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.


 Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the website 
 looks like.


 
 Ok, message received. At least I've got my answer for the PR. Thanks for 
 your honesty. Sincerely.


I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you not going to make a pull 
request because Moritz isn't interested? If so, you should know that he 
is not the one who decides about this stuff (not that he claimed to be). 
Neither am I. We're just engaging in discussion.
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 19:11:19 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

 On 08/27/2017 08:07 PM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers 
 till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok 
 this time.


 Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the 
 website looks like.


 
 Ok, message received. At least I've got my answer for the PR. 
 Thanks for your honesty. Sincerely.


 I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you not going to make 
 a pull request because Moritz isn't interested? If so, you 
 should know that he is not the one who decides about this stuff 
 (not that he claimed to be). Neither am I. We're just engaging 
 in discussion.


Following what you said, I've just looked at both Github 
accounts, and I can clearly see that it's much above my skill set 
to merge the content of both D-based websites so that the main 
page of the Dlang website looks exactly like what I want.

I still do not understand why they have made so many separated 
Github account for just one website. Just using sub folders on 
the same Github account would have been a much simpler solution, 
so that it's easy to make changes to the website on a more global 
scale...
Aug 27 2017
next sibling parent reply Moritz Maxeiner <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 20:13:35 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Following what you said, I've just looked at both Github 
 accounts, and I can clearly see that it's much above my skill 
 set to merge the content of both D-based websites so that the 
 main page of the Dlang website looks exactly like what I want.


Fair enough, in that case could you open an enhancement request 
over at [1], so it doesn't get lost?

[1] https://issues.dlang.org/
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 20:31:03 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 20:13:35 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Following what you said, I've just looked at both Github 
 accounts, and I can clearly see that it's much above my skill 
 set to merge the content of both D-based websites so that the 
 main page of the Dlang website looks exactly like what I want.


 Fair enough, in that case could you open an enhancement request 
 over at [1], so it doesn't get lost?

 [1] https://issues.dlang.org/


Done !

https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17789

Thanks for the advice :)
Aug 27 2017
parent reply Dmitry <dmitry indiedev.ru> writes:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 23:22:06 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Done !

 https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17789

 Thanks for the advice :)


Also you could fork the site (main page), make changes and share 
result. Then will be possible see changes, how it'll look "live". 
And people can vote - like/dislike. For example, 
https://forum.dlang.org/thread/odbtivxmrggaywcbebqx forum.dlang.org
Aug 27 2017
parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 28 August 2017 at 02:49:30 UTC, Dmitry wrote:

 On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 23:22:06 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 Done !

 https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17789

 Thanks for the advice :)


 Also you could fork the site (main page), make changes and 
 share result. Then will be possible see changes, how it'll look 
 "live". And people can vote - like/dislike. For example, 
 https://forum.dlang.org/thread/odbtivxmrggaywcbebqx forum.dlang.org


I like the idea, but it's too complicated for my current skills.

What I can actually do without problem is a graphical mock up of 
the landing page, as that's something I'm already used to do to 
get a website design validation.
Aug 28 2017
prev sibling parent ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 08/27/2017 10:13 PM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:

 I still do not understand why they have made so many separated Github 
 account for just one website. Just using sub folders on the same Github 
 account would have been a much simpler solution, so that it's easy to 
 make changes to the website on a more global scale...


The beauty of decentralized, volunteer-driven development.

forum.dlang.org, code.dlang.org, and tour.dlang.org started as 
independent projects by different authors. They were later integrated 
into dlang.org, but so far they remain as separate projects, using 
different technology, having their own maintainers, etc.

I agree that dealing with multiple repositories can be annoying. But 
people have to prioritize what they work on, and merging everything into 
one is probably not high on the list. For the people who maintain it, it 
works reasonably well as it is.
Aug 27 2017
prev sibling parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
And I'd like to point out that maybe I'm not the best web 
developer in the world, but what I suggest is quite close to what 
you can see on the website of very successful programming 
languages.

I'm only suggesting to have a SIMPLE and PRACTICAL landing page, 
which is also tailored for those who are completely NEW to D or 
even to programming, and just landed on this web page by 
CURIOSITY about the language.

If you succeed in convincing them that D is good for them, and 
that D can be easily installed and learned, then there are great 
chances they will become D programmers.

So basically my advice for the landing page is as simple as that :

1. Say "Welcome"

2. Show how D is nice, ending with a link to the feature page

3. Show how simple D code looks like, using 4 well chosen 
examples, with the first on the right of the main page.

4. Show how easy it is to learn D.

5. Show how easy it is to install DMD and a simple editor like 
CoEdit on any win/mac/linux computer.

That's all I suggest...
Aug 27 2017