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digitalmars.D - PHP verses C#.NET verses D.

reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
Hi.

There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings with 
at present. They have build most of their original code in PHP, 

interfacing to accounting appls on clients machines. The core PHP 
application runs in the cloud at present and talks to accountings 
applications in the cloud. They use the PHP symfony framework.

High speed in not important, but accuracy, error handling, and 
scalability is, as they are processing accounting transactions. 
They have a new CEO on board, and he would like to review the 
companies technical direction.

Their client base is small but growing quickly.  I know that PHP 
is not a great language, and my knowledge of D is reasonable, 


Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:


3.  Migrate to D in time.

Any comments or suggestions on the above?
Jun 15 2015
next sibling parent "israel" <tl12000 live.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 June 2015 at 23:53:06 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 Hi.

 There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings 
 with at present. They have build most of their original code in 

 for interfacing to accounting appls on clients machines. The 
 core PHP application runs in the cloud at present and talks to 
 accountings applications in the cloud. They use the PHP symfony 
 framework.

 High speed in not important, but accuracy, error handling, and 
 scalability is, as they are processing accounting transactions. 
 They have a new CEO on board, and he would like to review the 
 companies technical direction.

 Their client base is small but growing quickly.  I know that 
 PHP is not a great language, and my knowledge of D is 


 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:

 grow.

 3.  Migrate to D in time.

 Any comments or suggestions on the above?


We have seen this before. I believe the verdict 
was..."Experiment" first, if things
seem like they will work out with D. Go full force. But from the 
sound of your situation it seems there is no time for 
experimentation.

The best you could do is tell your boss the pros and cons of D 
and ask if he can give you some time to test things out first. 
But i doubt they will listen to the insight of a normal 
employee...unless you have a good reputation?
Jun 15 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 16/06/2015 11:53 a.m., Nick B wrote:

 Hi.

 There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings with at
 present. They have build most of their original code in PHP, (as this

 accounting appls on clients machines. The core PHP application runs in
 the cloud at present and talks to accountings applications in the cloud.
 They use the PHP symfony framework.

 High speed in not important, but accuracy, error handling, and
 scalability is, as they are processing accounting transactions. They
 have a new CEO on board, and he would like to review the companies
 technical direction.

 Their client base is small but growing quickly.  I know that PHP is not
 a great language, and my knowledge of D is reasonable, while I have poor


 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:


 3.  Migrate to D in time.

 Any comments or suggestions on the above?


Hello follow Kiwi!
Jun 15 2015
parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 June 2015 at 06:29:46 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 On 16/06/2015 11:53 a.m., Nick B wrote:

 Hi.

 There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings 
 with at
 present. Any comments or suggestions on the above?


 Hello follow Kiwi!


Hello kiwi from the south Island. :)
Jun 16 2015
parent reply Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 17/06/2015 6:41 a.m., Nick B wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 June 2015 at 06:29:46 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 On 16/06/2015 11:53 a.m., Nick B wrote:

 Hi.

 There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings with at
 present. Any comments or suggestions on the above?


 Hello follow Kiwi!


 Hello kiwi from the south Island. :)


Oh please say Christchurch!
Jun 16 2015
parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 04:51:44 UTC, Rikki Cattermole 
wrote:

 On 17/06/2015 6:41 a.m., Nick B wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 June 2015 at 06:29:46 UTC, Rikki Cattermole





 Oh please say Christchurch!


sorry for the confusion. Its Wellington.
Jun 16 2015
parent Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 17/06/2015 5:40 p.m., Nick B wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 04:51:44 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 On 17/06/2015 6:41 a.m., Nick B wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 June 2015 at 06:29:46 UTC, Rikki Cattermole





 Oh please say Christchurch!


 sorry for the confusion. Its Wellington.


Ahh right right.
Jun 16 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "Abdulhaq" <alynch4047 gmail.com> writes:
First off I would stress that architecture and process are more 
important than which of those 3 languages you choose, i.e. good 
testing (I prefer test driven), continuous integration, and a 
solid architecture that you are confident will provide the 
reliability, correctness  and uptime that you require.

Having said that I would then personally be conservative and 

great tooling. It also has a good ecosystem (libraries etc.) 
which will prove very useful in business related tasks.

D has better expressiveness and probably would run faster but 
given all the other factors I would be concerned right now about 
its slight lack of maturity and under-developed ecosystem.
Jun 16 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "John Colvin" <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 June 2015 at 23:53:06 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 Hi.

 There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings 
 with at present. They have build most of their original code in 

 for interfacing to accounting appls on clients machines. The 
 core PHP application runs in the cloud at present and talks to 
 accountings applications in the cloud. They use the PHP symfony 
 framework.

 High speed in not important, but accuracy, error handling, and 
 scalability is, as they are processing accounting transactions. 
 They have a new CEO on board, and he would like to review the 
 companies technical direction.

 Their client base is small but growing quickly.  I know that 
 PHP is not a great language, and my knowledge of D is 


 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:

 grow.

 3.  Migrate to D in time.

 Any comments or suggestions on the above?



it's the sort of team who like to innovate and explore new 
possibilities or whether they want a completely fleshed out, 
stable ecosystem.

D can make boring work interesting: endless boiler-plate can be 
neatly abstracted and many models* can be expressed JustRight™ as 

also pretty good at this (sometimes), but D has a significant 
edge.
Jun 16 2015
parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 16 June 2015 at 08:47:40 UTC, John Colvin wrote:

 On Monday, 15 June 2015 at 23:53:06 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 Hi.


 Any comments or suggestions on the above?



 it's the sort of team who like to innovate and explore new 
 possibilities or whether they want a completely fleshed out, 
 stable ecosystem.



Is anyone else able to comment on the comparisions/differences 

Any comments on cost ?
Any comments on getting bugs fixed ?
Jun 16 2015
next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/17/2015 12:25 AM, Nick B wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 June 2015 at 08:47:40 UTC, John Colvin wrote:

 On Monday, 15 June 2015 at 23:53:06 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 Hi.


 Any comments or suggestions on the above?



 the sort of team who like to innovate and explore new possibilities or
 whether they want a completely fleshed out, stable ecosystem.



 Is anyone else able to comment on the comparisions/differences between



I'm obviously biased, being on the D forums and all (although I used to 
be a fan of both languages, a long time ago), but IMHO:


 Any comments on cost ?


I find D lets you get things done quicker/easier (worker cost) and 
potentially run a little faster (hardware cost). Though I image other 



 Any comments on getting bugs fixed ?


Not too bad in D. With D, bugs do get fixed, AND if you really need a 
fix right away you can always just DIY.


on. There's very little feedback and community outreach. It's *their* 
product, and their business strategy dictates where development 
resources go. For example, people have been needing some sort of 
IArithmetic (counterpart to IComparable) ever since generics were first 
introduced back in v2 (so that you could, y'know, actually do arithmetic 
generically), but even to this day MS never really did bother to put it 
in or really even acknowledge the matter at all.
Jun 17 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 04:25:38 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Tuesday, 16 June 2015 at 08:47:40 UTC, John Colvin wrote:

 On Monday, 15 June 2015 at 23:53:06 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 Hi.


 Any comments or suggestions on the above?



 whether it's the sort of team who like to innovate and explore 
 new possibilities or whether they want a completely fleshed 
 out, stable ecosystem.



 Is anyone else able to comment on the comparisions/differences 

 Any comments on cost ?
 Any comments on getting bugs fixed ?


I've been working on developing the entire Web Stack in D, down 
from the kernel to the multiplexed HTTP/2 protocol and the 
high-level framework that queries the database and serves the 
response in json.

If I did so at a high personal investment cost, it was so those 
insane web development languages wouldn't bother me anymore. In 
D, if you have a bug, you are 100% certain that you can resolve 
it yourself. You have all the C/C++ tools available to go all the 
way down to the memory and debug anything you want. You have 
statically typed language that allows huge projects to breathe 
very healthy and increment features at low cost.

Nothing beats D in my opinion. It's 20 years ahead of everything 
out there. All you need to do, is know how to use it and 
understand it enough to resolve any bugs you come up with.
Jun 17 2015
parent reply "Laeeth Isharc" <nospamlaeeth laeethnospam.laeeth.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 16:28:42 UTC, Etienne wrote:

 I've been working on developing the entire Web Stack in D, down 
 from the kernel to the multiplexed HTTP/2 protocol and the 
 high-level framework that queries the database and serves the 
 response in json.


Your work looks very interesting, although I haven't used it yet. 
  Any idea how far away it might be from being something that 
someone could use in an enterprise environment simply, in the 
same kind of way that vibed is easy?  I appreciate that making it 
broadly usable may not be what interests you, and may be a 
project for someone else.



 If I did so at a high personal investment cost, it was so those 
 insane web development languages wouldn't bother me anymore. In 
 D, if you have a bug, you are 100% certain that you can resolve 
 it yourself. You have all the C/C++ tools available to go all 
 the way down to the memory and debug anything you want. You 
 have statically typed language that allows huge projects to 
 breathe very healthy and increment features at low cost.

 Nothing beats D in my opinion. It's 20 years ahead of 
 everything out there. All you need to do, is know how to use it 
 and understand it enough to resolve any bugs you come up with.


Any chance you could write a bit more on this?  Your personal 
story and why you believe this.  We could post on the Wiki as 
part of a series of narratives on people who have found D 
helpful.  Stories are a powerful complement to just ticking off 
features.

Thanks.


Laeeth.
Jun 17 2015
next sibling parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 16:28:42 UTC, Etienne wrote:

 I've been working on developing the entire Web Stack in D, 
 down from the kernel to the multiplexed HTTP/2 protocol and 
 the high-level framework that queries the database and serves 
 the response in json.


 Your work looks very interesting, although I haven't used it 
 yet.
  Any idea how far away it might be from being something that 
 someone could use in an enterprise environment simply, in the 
 same kind of way that vibed is easy?  I appreciate that making 
 it broadly usable may not be what interests you, and may be a 
 project for someone else.



 If I did so at a high personal investment cost, it was so 
 those insane web development languages wouldn't bother me 
 anymore. In D, if you have a bug, you are 100% certain that 
 you can resolve it yourself. You have all the C/C++ tools 
 available to go all the way down to the memory and debug 
 anything you want. You have statically typed language that 
 allows huge projects to breathe very healthy and increment 
 features at low cost.

 Nothing beats D in my opinion. It's 20 years ahead of 
 everything out there. All you need to do, is know how to use 
 it and understand it enough to resolve any bugs you come up 
 with.


 Any chance you could write a bit more on this?  Your personal 
 story and why you believe this.


Yes I too would be interested on more background as to your 
opinion, as why its 20 years ahead of everything else out there.
Jun 17 2015
parent "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 02:01:33 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 Yes I too would be interested on more background as to your 
 opinion, as why its 20 years ahead of everything else out there.


Natively compiled: Moore's law predicts that the burden in 
advancements in computing speed will migrate into software. This 
may be enough to rule out increasingly the use of managed 
language for developments where cost is important and more than 1 
server will be needed. Compiling vs interpreting can make all the 
difference between requiring 1000 servers vs 10 servers.

Template metaprogramming: This is the first reason I've chosen to 
use D in the first place. The idea that I could write code that 
writes code, and make it statically typed and safe. C++ has this 
but the errors are insane, the static if is not there, CTFE is 
just starting to pick up, there's no traits or very limited 
compile-time reflection (ie. static if(__traits(compiles, { 
some_operation(); })). The compile time is also much slower, 
there's simply too many legacy features in the language that have 
made it suffer in the long run. Even a package manager like dub 
is something nobody can agree on, because the community is so 
divided.

Overall, it would take decades for the most powerful language C++ 
to reach the current state of D in terms of compile-time 
capabilities. This is important because preprocessors are the 
only alternatives and they suck for larger projects.

I won't cover again everything that the dlang site can say about 
the language, and I could go on with how D has the entire web 
stack (I didn't release it fully yet) but that would be throwing 
myself flowers :P
Jun 17 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

  Any idea how far away it might be from being something that 
 someone could use in an enterprise environment simply, in the 
 same kind of way that vibed is easy?  I appreciate that making 
 it broadly usable may not be what interests you, and may be a 
 project for someone else.


I would say 3 months. So it'll probably be a year considering how 
off my last estimates were. Of course, I never calculated any 
help (and haven't gotten any really)


 Any chance you could write a bit more on this?  Your personal 
 story and why you believe this.  We could post on the Wiki as 
 part of a series of narratives on people who have found D 
 helpful.  Stories are a powerful complement to just ticking off 
 features.



years of experience, building mostly e-commerce and information 
systems on a contractual basis. One day, I decided I had enough 
and wanted to invest my time in a faster web engine because I was 
tired of seeing all those slow and bloated libraries that can 
barely serve 10 requests per second when they're put to any 
practical use.

I decided to go for C++ and learn everything I could about 
writing an integrated solution. I found interesting libraries but 
everytime I wanted to add a feature, I'd have to import another 
library and it again became bloated but in terms of code base. 
Nothing seemed to work together (Qt & Boost?).

The D programming language came up frequently in search results 
when looking for C++-related concepts, and I saw everything I 
needed in Phobos. The language features seemed similar at first 
but I quickly realized how much more convenient the language was 
as a whole and it felt much like a managed language overall.

Even the vibe.d library was much more advanced than what I could 
find with an open source license that allowed static compilation 
at the time (1 yr 1/2 ago), so I went forward with that and 
worked my way through. The most interesting part is that 
everytime I had a problem, I never had to google the error from 
the compiler because it was quite straightforward. I did have to 
debug the memory a lot but all the tools from C/C++ work for that.

So now I can build a full web application/server executable in 
less than 2mb packed, and it runs faster than anything out there. 
It's standalone, works cross-platform, etc. I really have to put 
the blame on the language for the speed at which this very large 
project was finished. I completed the STL-equivalent memory 
library, TLS/crypto security library, the low-level async TCP 
library, the HTTP/2 implementation and the integration of 
everything in a web application framework within about 10 months. 
I learned the language for about 6 months through that coming 
from a background more familiar with managed languages. I can't 
say D isn't meant for large projects, it's a really fucking solid 
language that was built for the future.
Jun 17 2015
next sibling parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

  Any idea how far away it might be from being something that 
 someone could use in an enterprise environment simply, in the 
 same kind of way that vibed is easy?  I appreciate that making 
 it broadly usable may not be what interests you, and may be a 
 project for someone else.


 I would say 3 months. So it'll probably be a year considering 
 how off my last estimates were.


Etienne -
Interesting back story.

Will this be under a Boost licence ?

Will you provide a link ?


 Even the vibe.d library was much more advanced than what I 
 could find with an open source license that allowed static 
 compilation at the time (1 yr 1/2 ago), so I went forward with 
 that and worked my way through.


[snip\]

 So now I can build a full web application/server executable in 
 less than 2mb packed, and it runs faster than anything out 
 there. It's standalone, works cross-platform, etc.


Will you explain how it is different to Vibe.d ?
Jun 17 2015
next sibling parent "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 05:23:25 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc 
 wrote:

  Any idea how far away it might be from being something that 
 someone could use in an enterprise environment simply, in the 
 same kind of way that vibed is easy?  I appreciate that 
 making it broadly usable may not be what interests you, and 
 may be a project for someone else.


 I would say 3 months. So it'll probably be a year considering 
 how off my last estimates were.


 Etienne -
 Interesting back story.



 So now I can build a full web application/server executable in 
 less than 2mb packed, and it runs faster than anything out 
 there. It's standalone, works cross-platform, etc.


 Will you explain how it is different to Vibe.d ?


Thanks everyone for their suggestions.

Thanks Etienne on the heads-up on your new web application/server 
executable.

If anyone wants to add any final comments they are most welcome.

Nick
Jun 19 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 05:23:25 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc 
 wrote:

  Any idea how far away it might be from being something that 
 someone could use in an enterprise environment simply, in the 
 same kind of way that vibed is easy?  I appreciate that 
 making it broadly usable may not be what interests you, and 
 may be a project for someone else.


 I would say 3 months. So it'll probably be a year considering 
 how off my last estimates were.


 Etienne -
 Interesting back story.

 Will this be under a Boost licence ?

 Will you provide a link ?


 Even the vibe.d library was much more advanced than what I 
 could find with an open source license that allowed static 
 compilation at the time (1 yr 1/2 ago), so I went forward with 
 that and worked my way through.


 [snip\]

 So now I can build a full web application/server executable in 
 less than 2mb packed, and it runs faster than anything out 
 there. It's standalone, works cross-platform, etc.


 Will you explain how it is different to Vibe.d ?


It has HTTP/2, a new encryption library, it uses a native TCP 
event library, lots of refactoring. In short, the entire thing is 
in D rather than linking with OpenSSL and libevent.

It's MIT licensed. I have it here: 
https://github.com/etcimon/vibe.d

The dub.json uses relative paths though while I'm developing. 
You're free to adjust the file and try it, we can consider it 
stable.
Jun 19 2015
next sibling parent reply "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 11:28:30 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 05:23:25 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 [...]


 Etienne -
 Interesting back story.

 Will this be under a Boost licence ?

 Will you provide a link ?


 [...]


 [snip\]

 [...]




 It has HTTP/2, a new encryption library, it uses a native TCP 
 event library, lots of refactoring. In short, the entire thing 
 is in D rather than linking with OpenSSL and libevent.


Also, the HTTP client has a cookiejar and more settings.
Jun 19 2015
parent "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 11:29:58 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 11:28:30 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 05:23:25 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon 
 wrote:

 [...]






 Also, the HTTP client has a cookiejar and more settings.


hmm, I think I can mention the capture debugger. I'm still 
developing it but it's becoming quite complete. It's a runtime 
tool shows the HTTP client/server request/response headers, form 
files/fields, json input/output, for specific request paths, and 
works in builds without debug info. The trace library that's used 
for it also maintains custom call stack trace that works in 
builds withoutu debug info.

https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/etcimon/vibe.d/blob/master/views/capture.html
Jun 19 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Suliman" <evermind live.ru> writes:
 It has HTTP/2, a new encryption library, it uses a native TCP 
 event library, lots of refactoring. In short, the entire thing 
 is in D rather than linking with OpenSSL and libevent.

 It's MIT licensed. I have it here: 
 https://github.com/etcimon/vibe.d


Cool!
1. Do you plain to merge it's with original dub?
2. "new encryption library" does it's written entirely in D and 
do all that do OpenSSL?
3. Do you any plan to add some futures from net.curl? I really 
dislike to use it, I would like native lib.
Jun 19 2015
next sibling parent "ZombineDev" <valid_email he.re> writes:
On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 11:35:07 UTC, Suliman wrote:


 2. "new encryption library" does it's written entirely in D and 
 do all that do OpenSSL?


http://forum.dlang.org/thread/mc0a99$2bfn$1 digitalmars.com
Jun 19 2015
prev sibling parent "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 11:35:07 UTC, Suliman wrote:

 It has HTTP/2, a new encryption library, it uses a native TCP 
 event library, lots of refactoring. In short, the entire thing 
 is in D rather than linking with OpenSSL and libevent.

 It's MIT licensed. I have it here: 
 https://github.com/etcimon/vibe.d


 Cool!
 1. Do you plain to merge it's with original dub?


Work is in progress, it will be gradual over the next year to 
avoid merge conflicts with existing users:
https://github.com/rejectedsoftware/vibe.d/tree/http2-botan-cleanup

Don't expect that branch to build though.


 2. "new encryption library" does it's written entirely in D and 
 do all that do OpenSSL?


Botan does everything that OpenSSL does, but also in a more 
convenient way. If you need something for anything crypto, 
chances are it's going to do it.

https://github.com/etcimon/botan


 3. Do you any plan to add some futures from net.curl? I really 
 dislike to use it, I would like native lib.


Vibe.d tasks are one level further from my point of view. You can 
write procedural TCP read/write and the thread will not block.
Jun 19 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/19/2015 07:28 AM, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 The dub.json uses relative paths though while I'm developing. You're
 free to adjust the file and try it,


You may want to consider just using dub's (add|remove)-local for that 
instead. You can rip those "path" elements out of dub.json completely, 
then just do:

$ dub add-local ../botan
$ dub add-local ../libasync

And it will use those paths on your machine only, without mucking up the 
dub.json.

Then when you're done (or if you want to change paths):

$ dub remove-local ../botan
$ dub remove-local ../libasync
Jun 19 2015
parent "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 15:31:19 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/19/2015 07:28 AM, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 The dub.json uses relative paths though while I'm developing. 
 You're
 free to adjust the file and try it,


 You may want to consider just using dub's (add|remove)-local 
 for that instead. You can rip those "path" elements out of 
 dub.json completely, then just do:

 $ dub add-local ../botan
 $ dub add-local ../libasync

 And it will use those paths on your machine only, without 
 mucking up the dub.json.

 Then when you're done (or if you want to change paths):

 $ dub remove-local ../botan
 $ dub remove-local ../libasync


I don't know why so many people take it personal, I love being 
corrected. Thanks so much for the tip :)
Jun 19 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 11:28:30 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 05:23:25 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:





 Will you explain how it is different to Vibe.d ?


 It has HTTP/2, a new encryption library, it uses a native TCP 
 event library, lots of refactoring. In short, the entire thing 
 is in D rather than linking with OpenSSL and libevent.



Etienne

Can you explain the benefits of writing these libraries in D, as 
against just linking to  these libraries. Is it for faster 
execution, or better debugging, or some other reason ?
Jun 20 2015
parent "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 03:16:31 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Friday, 19 June 2015 at 11:28:30 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 05:23:25 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon 
 wrote:





 Will you explain how it is different to Vibe.d ?


 It has HTTP/2, a new encryption library, it uses a native TCP 
 event library, lots of refactoring. In short, the entire thing 
 is in D rather than linking with OpenSSL and libevent.



 Etienne

 Can you explain the benefits of writing these libraries in D, 
 as against just linking to  these libraries. Is it for faster 
 execution, or better debugging, or some other reason ?


When writing bindings, you need to write unit tests for your 
bindings and an interface. You're adding a layer of software with 
its own propensity for errors. You also don't have access to the 
underlying implementation in the IDE. You also can't add features 
to facilitate your own programs unless you control the repository.

Honestly, I can't stand having layers and layers of garbage to 
make up for language differences. I like the cleanliness of it 
all and it probably ended up taking me half the time because I 
avoided debugging new code.
Jun 21 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Laeeth Isharc" <nospamlaeeth laeethnospam.laeeth.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

 Any chance you could write a bit more on this?  Your personal 
 story and why you believe this.  We could post on the Wiki as 
 part of a series of narratives on people who have found D 
 helpful.  Stories are a powerful complement to just ticking 
 off features.



 years of experience, building mostly e-commerce and information 
 systems on a contractual basis. One day, I decided I had enough


Thanks for this.

I am collecting narratives here:
http://wiki.dlang.org/User_narratives_on_switching_to_D

(I am not very good with Wiki, but we can clean up later).
Jun 18 2015
parent "Nicholas Wilson" <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 07:34:28 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc 
 wrote:

 Any chance you could write a bit more on this?  Your personal 
 story and why you believe this.  We could post on the Wiki as 
 part of a series of narratives on people who have found D 
 helpful.  Stories are a powerful complement to just ticking 
 off features.



 years of experience, building mostly e-commerce and 
 information systems on a contractual basis. One day, I decided 
 I had enough


 Thanks for this.

 I am collecting narratives here:
 http://wiki.dlang.org/User_narratives_on_switching_to_D

 (I am not very good with Wiki, but we can clean up later).


This page needs WAAAY more hyperlinks, particularly the acronyms 
and resources (e.g. Ali's book), as I assume that this is meant 
for 'advertising'. Anyway good start and nice work!
Jun 19 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Wednesday, 17 June 2015 at 18:40:01 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

  Any idea how far away it might be from being something that 
 someone could use in an enterprise environment simply, in the 
 same kind of way that vibed is easy?  I appreciate that making 
 it broadly usable may not be what interests you, and may be a 
 project for someone else.


 I would say 3 months. So it'll probably be a year considering 
 how off my last estimates were. Of course, I never calculated 
 any help (and haven't gotten any really)


Etienne

Would you like to detail what still needs to be completed/on the 
to-do list  ?

What would be the best way to learn it ?

Does it need documentation as well ?

Nick
Jun 21 2015
parent "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 06:32:31 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:



 Etienne

 Would you like to detail what still needs to be completed/on 
 the to-do list  ?

 What would be the best way to learn it ?

 Does it need documentation as well ?

 Nick


The docs should be the same as the ones on vibed.org

As for the todo list, It's a little long to detail it. Depends 
also on where you want to go.

Urgent:
- Update libhttp2 and botan with recent changes from the original 
repos (nghttp2, botan). No stability issues, only new algorithms 
mostly.
- Write a Windows/Mac/linux daemon utility with rights elevation 
to have support for desktop application development (currently 
finishing up windows)
    - The Mac daemon requires launchd, which compiles only with 
DMD pull request to be merged: 
https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/4321
    - Uses the http://diveframework.com/ to elevate
- Test the live debugging features with third party applications 
(similar to packet-capturing but server-side).
    - This is completed and available on my fork of vibe.d and a 
reverse proxy request looks like this: 
http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/etcimon/vibe.d/blob/maste
/views/capture.html => http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=E51RXyt2
    - Also includes json req/response or call stack in builds 
compiled with release
- Try running with LDC and debug the libraries until everything 
completely compiles with it (2.067+)
- Find a way to add a thread-local GC in druntime or at least 
make dub compile the projects with it.

Less urgent:
- Implement administration interface for the new redis 3.0 
clustering feature
- Write a DNS server with A-record scheduling for distribution
- Adapt VibeDist to send requests to worker tasks
- Add support for runtime loading of DLL plugins that 
auto-register/unregister to the router.
- Test lua bindings to develop runtime themes

I also have private application development on the todo list 
which ends up testing the library. Lots of testing is still 
needed but I think the server exceeds what I could make any other 
server do. It compiles in a single portable executable 2mb packed 
after all.
Jun 22 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:


 So now I can build a full web application/server executable in 
 less than 2mb packed, and it runs faster than anything out 
 there.


Etienne

Do you have an performance numbers, as to how fast your web 
application/server is, or is this based on your personal 
experience ?

Nick
Jun 22 2015
parent reply "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 06:26:39 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 03:44:08 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:


 So now I can build a full web application/server executable in 
 less than 2mb packed, and it runs faster than anything out 
 there.


 Etienne

 Do you have an performance numbers, as to how fast your web 
 application/server is, or is this based on your personal 
 experience ?

 Nick


I don't have current performance results because I've been 
focused on adding features, but these results were taken on a 
previous version:

https://atilanevesoncode.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/go-vs-d-vs-erlang-vs-c-in-real-life-mqtt-broker-implementation-shootout/
Jun 23 2015
parent reply "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 11:22:40 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:


 Nick


 I don't have current performance results because I've been 
 focused on adding features, but these results were taken on a 
 previous version:

 https://atilanevesoncode.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/go-vs-d-vs-erlang-vs-c-in-real-life-mqtt-broker-implementation-shootout/


Etienne

Thanks for the responses and your details replies.
I'm going to talk to the CEO of the company described, at the 
beginning of this long thread, and find out they are willing to 
consider a proof of concept web site based on your work.
This could take a couple of weeks.  What is the best way to get 
in touch with you if I have more questions ?

Nick
Jun 23 2015
parent reply "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 at 05:34:08 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 11:22:40 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:


 Nick


 I don't have current performance results because I've been 
 focused on adding features, but these results were taken on a 
 previous version:

 https://atilanevesoncode.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/go-vs-d-vs-erlang-vs-c-in-real-life-mqtt-broker-implementation-shootout/


 Etienne

 Thanks for the responses and your details replies.
 I'm going to talk to the CEO of the company described, at the 
 beginning of this long thread, and find out they are willing to 
 consider a proof of concept web site based on your work.
 This could take a couple of weeks.  What is the best way to get 
 in touch with you if I have more questions ?

 Nick


Skype: Etcimon or gmail the same username
Jun 25 2015
parent "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 25 June 2015 at 13:48:38 UTC, Etienne wrote:

 On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 at 05:34:08 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 11:22:40 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:





 Thanks for the responses and your details replies.
 I'm going to talk to the CEO of the company described, at the 
 beginning of this long thread, and find out they are willing 
 to consider a proof of concept web site based on your work.
 This could take a couple of weeks.  What is the best way to 
 get in touch with you if I have more questions ?

 Nick


 Skype: Etcimon or gmail the same username


Thanks again.

Nick
Jun 25 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 15 June 2015 at 23:53:06 UTC, Nick B wrote:

 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:

 grow.

 3.  Migrate to D in time.

 Any comments or suggestions on the above?


Don't mess up a working solution. Don't mess it up. Go with this 
logic: will it mess up the existing software? Choose the solution 
that will not mess it up.

This being said, you start a new project with spare money or 
spare time. Migrations are 99.9% of the time not worth it.
Jun 16 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2015-06-16 01:53, Nick B wrote:


 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:


 3.  Migrate to D in time.

 Any comments or suggestions on the above?


Anything would be better than PHP. You can't go wrong picking either D 


-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 16 2015
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/17/2015 02:30 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2015-06-16 01:53, Nick B wrote:


 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:





You mentioned cost elsewhere, and this can be a big cost that doesn't 
scale very well.



 3.  Migrate to D in time.

 Any comments or suggestions on the above?


 Anything would be better than PHP. You can't go wrong picking either D



Definitely.

http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/

Even Facebook, every PHP-proponent's favorite example of a supposed "PHP 
user" has spent many years putting lots of effort into:

1. Mitigating PHP's problems (big coding standards guidelines based on 
many years experience by an army of developers, plus completely 
rewriting the PHP engine itself something like three times, see 
"HipHop". They don't use stock "Zend" PHP.)

2. Migrating *away* from PHP. See Facebook's own "Hack" language.
Jun 17 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Mon, 15 Jun 2015 23:53:04 +0000
schrieb "Nick B" <nick.barbalich gmail.com>:


 Hi.
 
 There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings with 
 at present. They have build most of their original code in PHP, 

 interfacing to accounting appls on clients machines. The core PHP 
 application runs in the cloud at present and talks to accountings 
 applications in the cloud. They use the PHP symfony framework.
 
 High speed in not important, but accuracy, error handling, and 
 scalability is, as they are processing accounting transactions. 
 They have a new CEO on board, and he would like to review the 
 companies technical direction.
 
 Their client base is small but growing quickly.  I know that PHP 
 is not a great language, and my knowledge of D is reasonable, 

 
 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:


 3.  Migrate to D in time.
 
 Any comments or suggestions on the above?



You get WYSIWYG web page editing with error checking for forms
and lists with database table backing store.
Without your explicit library needs it is difficult to explain
to you if and how D could work in this case. As for bugs, it
seems that commercial users get some priority bonus.

-- 
Marco
Jun 17 2015
prev sibling parent dennis luehring <dl.soluz gmx.net> writes:

such a question here (without giving any infos about what the co-workers 
understand, the real size of the project is, etc.)

Am 16.06.2015 um 01:53 schrieb Nick B:

 Hi.

 There is a startup in New Zealand that I have some dealings with
 at present. They have build most of their original code in PHP,

 interfacing to accounting appls on clients machines. The core PHP
 application runs in the cloud at present and talks to accountings
 applications in the cloud. They use the PHP symfony framework.

 High speed in not important, but accuracy, error handling, and
 scalability is, as they are processing accounting transactions.
 They have a new CEO on board, and he would like to review the
 companies technical direction.

 Their client base is small but growing quickly.  I know that PHP
 is not a great language, and my knowledge of D is reasonable,


 Looking to the future, as volumes grow, they could:


 3.  Migrate to D in time.

 Any comments or suggestions on the above?
Jun 21 2015