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digitalmars.D - NNTP client configuration

reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/19/2018 10:40 PM, Tobias Müller wrote:

 Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:

 On 02/19/2018 03:52 AM, Manu wrote:

 On 18 Feb. 2018 10:25 pm, "Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d" <
 digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 On 2/18/2018 7:52 PM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:

 Well, it's also the world's most inconsistant and statndards-disregarding.
 We're talking 1990's MS-level behavior here. It's *always* causing trouble
 for something or another.


 And the great thing about NNTP is that the user gets to choose the client.
 Not the server. If you don't like the way your client behaves, use another
 one.

 Except in this case it's you that doesn't like the way my mail client
 behaves.


 Because your mail client is BROKEN.


 I don't want to install software, I'll continue using Gmail, undoubtedly
 the world's most popular mail client...


 Then petition *Google* to fix their ****** ****** software. You've
 already been told it has **** all to do with NNTP.


 It's no wonder that D has so few contributors if they are actively scared
 away.


I have no idea what is scary about this.


 If you want more people to contribute, make it as easy for them as
 possible.


We do. You can use any NNTP client you wish. You can also use DFeed at 
https://forum.dlang.org


 I really don't understand why this cannot be solved on the server.


Because when gmail emails someone, it does not go through D's server. DFeed is 
also an NNTP client and it does not have this problem. Neither does 
Thunderbird's client, which I use.


 Replying to all adresses in the Reply-To: header isn't what I would
 call broken anyway.


It's annoying because I do not know if he intended to send me private email or 
intended it to be public on the forum. It doesn't sound like he intended to
send 
these private emails, making it a problem with his client. I cannot fix his 
client. He has to, or use another client.

Of course, I could just mark those emails as spam, but then he couldn't send me 
private email if he wanted to.


 Is he even using NNTP? Or maybe the mailing list Interface?


He's using gmail's NNTP client. It's simply not possible for us to control it, 
any more than we can fix printer issues with Microsoft Word running on your 
machine. And you wouldn't want us to if we could :-)

Now, since we allow any NNTP client to post to our NNTP forums, it stands to 
reason that it's polite to configure it properly. In this case, it would be to 
not spam out unintended emails, and to post as plain text, not double post 
everything as both text and html. While the double posting will work, it makes 
the NNTP database twice as big and half as fast, for no purpose whatsoever. 
These should be configurable with any NNTP client that is not an incompetent 
steaming pile of rotting cabbage.
Feb 20 2018
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 01:23:32 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:

 On 2/19/2018 10:40 PM, Tobias Müller wrote:
  > Is he even using NNTP? Or maybe the mailing list Interface?

 He's using gmail's NNTP client. It's simply not possible for us to control
 it, any more than we can fix printer issues with Microsoft Word running
 on your machine. And you wouldn't want us to if we could :-)

 Now, since we allow any NNTP client to post to our NNTP forums, it stands
 to reason that it's polite to configure it properly. In this case, it
 would be to not spam out unintended emails, and to post as plain text,
 not double post everything as both text and html. While the double
 posting will work, it makes the NNTP database twice as big and half as
 fast, for no purpose whatsoever. These should be configurable with any
 NNTP client that is not an incompetent steaming pile of rotting cabbage.


Does gmail even have an NNTP client? I can't find anything about that when
doing a search for it. I had assumed that Manu was using the mailing list,
and as I explained, mailman is sending both the mailing list address and the
poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header, in which case, the problem
is not that Manu has misconfigured his e-mail client but that mailman is
misconfigured, since replying to the addresses in Reply-To is the correct
thing for an e-mail client to do. You can blame Manu for not going to the
extra effort of manually removing your personal e-mail address from the To
header, but the client is doing what it's supposed to be doing given what
mailman sent it.

Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter entirely
and certainly something that's the fault of the e-mail client. I don't know
how configurable that is with gmail though. Webmail tends to want to assume
that you're going to do everything with html and isn't always very
configurable (which is one reason why I use a local e-mail client and not
webmail).

- Jonathan M Davis
Feb 20 2018
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 2:05 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 Does gmail even have an NNTP client?


He wrote: "Apparently gmail has a new trick... reply to thread == reply-all."
Feb 20 2018
parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 03:08:37PM -0800, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 2:05 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 Does gmail even have an NNTP client?


 
 He wrote: "Apparently gmail has a new trick... reply to thread ==
 reply-all."


AFAIK, Google Groups has an NNTP interface to integrate with "legacy"
NNTP servers (though "native" groups itself uses something else). No
idea what that has to do with Gmail, but you never know.


T

-- 
Verbing weirds language. -- Calvin (& Hobbes)
Feb 20 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On 20 February 2018 at 01:23, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 It's annoying because I do not know if he intended to send me private email
 or intended it to be public on the forum. It doesn't sound like he intended
 to send these private emails, making it a problem with his client. I cannot
 fix his client. He has to, or use another client.


My client has nothing to do with this. I shouldn't have your email
address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times).
If I switched to outlook, I'd still have your email address in the
reply field.
You should be angry that the mailing list is emitting your private
email address to every subscriber.


 Is he even using NNTP? Or maybe the mailing list Interface?


 He's using gmail's NNTP client.


No, I'm using gmail's SMTP interface. I subscribe to the mailing list.
Feb 20 2018
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote:

 I shouldn't have your email
 address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times).


I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me privately 
about something I posted, which happens now and then.



 I subscribe to the mailing list.


Thanks for clearing that up. I apologize for inferring you were using gmail as 
your NTTP client.
Feb 20 2018
next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:20:27 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote:

 I shouldn't have your email
 address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times).


 I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me
 privately about something I posted, which happens now and then.


I think that it's also pretty common for the e-mail address of posters to
end up being visible somewhere for mailing lists - enough so that using an
e-mail address that you don't want to be public is risky.

Either way, having the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header is a
problem, because that's going to tell the e-mail client to send a reply
there. So, if the poster's e-mail address is going to be somewhere in the
headers, it needs to be in a different header (e.g. the From header).

Looking back at e-mails from the mailing list from the last few years, it
looks like it used to be the case that the From header listed the user's
name but with the mailing list's address (just like it does now), and the
Reply-To header just listed the mailing list's address (whereas now, it
lists the mailing list's e-mail address _and_ the poster's e-mail address).
So, prior to the last update that Brad did, I don't think that the poster's
e-mail address was available anywhere in messages from the mailing list.

However, if I look at messages from several years ago, it used to be that
the From field listed the poster's name and e-mail address (not the mailing
lists's), and the Reply-To header listed the mailing list's address.

So, if we want to try to hide the poster's e-mail address, the behavior that
mailman had a few months ago would be best, whereas if we want that
information to be available, then it's behavior from several years ago would
be best. Either way, having Reply-To include the poster's e-mail address is
going to result in a lot of unnecessary e-mails going directly to folks in
addition to the mailing list.

- Jonathan M Davis
Feb 20 2018
prev sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 7:43 PM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:20:27 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
 wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote:

 I shouldn't have your email
 address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times).


 I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me
 privately about something I posted, which happens now and then.


 I think that it's also pretty common for the e-mail address of posters to
 end up being visible somewhere for mailing lists - enough so that using an
 e-mail address that you don't want to be public is risky.

 Either way, having the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header is a
 problem, because that's going to tell the e-mail client to send a reply
 there. So, if the poster's e-mail address is going to be somewhere in the
 headers, it needs to be in a different header (e.g. the From header).

 Looking back at e-mails from the mailing list from the last few years, it
 looks like it used to be the case that the From header listed the user's
 name but with the mailing list's address (just like it does now), and the
 Reply-To header just listed the mailing list's address (whereas now, it
 lists the mailing list's e-mail address _and_ the poster's e-mail address).
 So, prior to the last update that Brad did, I don't think that the poster's
 e-mail address was available anywhere in messages from the mailing list.

 However, if I look at messages from several years ago, it used to be that
 the From field listed the poster's name and e-mail address (not the mailing
 lists's), and the Reply-To header listed the mailing list's address.

 So, if we want to try to hide the poster's e-mail address, the behavior that
 mailman had a few months ago would be best, whereas if we want that
 information to be available, then it's behavior from several years ago would
 be best. Either way, having Reply-To include the poster's e-mail address is
 going to result in a lot of unnecessary e-mails going directly to folks in
 addition to the mailing list.

 - Jonathan M Davis


We cannot go back to several years ago unless you can convince the world 
to also roll back dmarc.  That travesty of justice really screwed up 
mailing lists in general.  It was designed and implemented fairly 
ignorant of the ways in which lists work.  So that's off the table.

For the moment, we're back to the posters email is nowhere to be found, 
which is bad for some use cases.  There really is no one correct answer 
here.  Reasonable people are going to disagree.
Feb 20 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter entirely
 and certainly something that's the fault of the e-mail client. I don't know
 how configurable that is with gmail though. Webmail tends to want to assume
 that you're going to do everything with html and isn't always very
 configurable (which is one reason why I use a local e-mail client and not
 webmail).


It's configurable... what seems to happen though, is that occasionally
my setting resets.
Perhaps google updates gmail and it resets some settings like that? I
dunno. I don't notice when the setting resets, but Walter does.
I agree, I can technically control this, but if the NG really doesn't
want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing
list to mechanically truncate the html, since that's the default
setting for virtually all email clients anyway. Every mailing list
user must surely commit this sin?
Feb 20 2018
next sibling parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via 
 Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another 
 matter entirely


 but if the NG really doesn't
 want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the 
 mailing list to mechanically truncate the html,


Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here.
There's really no point is discussing this for hours here.
Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues:

https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues

Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first 
git commit)
Feb 20 2018
next sibling parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 4:53 PM, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d 
 <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter 
 entirely


 but if the NG really doesn't
 want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing 
 list to mechanically truncate the html,


 
 Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here.
 There's really no point is discussing this for hours here.
 Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues:
 
 https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues
 
 Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first git commit)


Do not use the d-tester issues for non tester related issues, please.

Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking 
into this today.  It's due to a behavior change between versions of 
mailman used on the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now) 
mail server and the current mail server.  I don't see the solution yet, 
but I'm working to figure out how to restore the previous behavior.
Feb 20 2018
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 5:09 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:

 Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking into 
 this today.  It's due to a behavior change between versions of mailman used
on 
 the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now) mail server and the 
 current mail server.  I don't see the solution yet, but I'm working to figure 
 out how to restore the previous behavior.


Good news! Thanks, Brad!
Feb 20 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On 20 February 2018 at 17:09, Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 4:53 PM, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
 <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter
 entirely


 but if the NG really doesn't
 want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing list
 to mechanically truncate the html,



 Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here.
 There's really no point is discussing this for hours here.
 Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues:

 https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues

 Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first git
 commit)



 Do not use the d-tester issues for non tester related issues, please.

 Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking
 into this today.  It's due to a behavior change between versions of mailman
 used on the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now) mail server
 and the current mail server.  I don't see the solution yet, but I'm working
 to figure out how to restore the previous behavior.


Hey Brad; is it possible to strip out the HTML copy from emails before
distribution?
I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime
by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;)
Feb 20 2018
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 6:00 PM, Manu wrote:

 I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime
 by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;)


We'll forgive you if you show up at DConf so I can buy you a good Bavarian beer!
Feb 20 2018
parent reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On 20 February 2018 at 19:32, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 6:00 PM, Manu wrote:

 I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime
 by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;)



 We'll forgive you if you show up at DConf so I can buy you a good Bavarian
 beer!


Haha, I was starting to feel like I wasn't welcome :P
Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this
year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding
out to see if I can get to Germany.
I have no holiday leave yet >_< .. and I'm still getting a feel for my
workload/schedule.
Feb 20 2018
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 10:21 PM, Manu wrote:

 Haha, I was starting to feel like I wasn't welcome :P


No chance of that happening!


 Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this
 year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding
 out to see if I can get to Germany.
 I have no holiday leave yet >_< .. and I'm still getting a feel for my
 workload/schedule.


Here's to hoping you find a way to come!
Feb 21 2018
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 02/21/2018 01:21 AM, Manu wrote:

 Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this
 year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding
 out to see if I can get to Germany.


I've had fingers crossed for another San Fransico DConf, too. I'm at the 
other end of the country, but I have some relatives in that city I could 
stay with. It'd provide a perfect excuse, too!
Feb 22 2018
parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Friday, 23 February 2018 at 05:09:23 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
(Abscissa) wrote:

 On 02/21/2018 01:21 AM, Manu wrote:

 Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states 
 this
 year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still 
 holding
 out to see if I can get to Germany.


 I've had fingers crossed for another San Fransico DConf, too. 
 I'm at the other end of the country, but I have some relatives 
 in that city I could stay with. It'd provide a perfect excuse, 
 too!


Hehe I think you need to help your fortune here a bit.
Why don't you organize a mini DConf US?
Feb 22 2018
parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 2/23/18 12:18 AM, Seb wrote:

 On Friday, 23 February 2018 at 05:09:23 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) 
 wrote:

 On 02/21/2018 01:21 AM, Manu wrote:

 Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this
 year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding
 out to see if I can get to Germany.


 I've had fingers crossed for another San Fransico DConf, too. I'm at 
 the other end of the country, but I have some relatives in that city I 
 could stay with. It'd provide a perfect excuse, too!


 
 Hehe I think you need to help your fortune here a bit.
 Why don't you organize a mini DConf US?


I'd be down for a mini DConf US. Hoping to go to Germany, but not sure 
if it's going to happen again :)

-Steve
Feb 23 2018
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/23/2018 5:20 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Hoping to go to Germany, but not sure if it's going to happen again :)


How can anyone pass up Bavaria?!
Feb 24 2018
parent reply Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Saturday, February 24, 2018 01:45:28 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:

 On 2/23/2018 5:20 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 Hoping to go to Germany, but not sure if it's going to happen again :)


 How can anyone pass up Bavaria?!


LOL. The cost of going to dconf when it's in Germany and you live in the US
isn't exactly small, and for some folks, it's not easy to get away even if
they can afford the cost. Of course, when it's in the US, then the folks in
Europe would have the same problem, so someone is always going to lose out
in that regard. Every year that it's been in Germany, I've at least briefly
considered not going due to the cost, but I hate the idea of missing dconf,
so I've made it work one way or another.

- Jonathan M Davis
Feb 24 2018
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/24/2018 1:58 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 LOL. The cost of going to dconf when it's in Germany and you live in the US
 isn't exactly small, and for some folks, it's not easy to get away even if
 they can afford the cost. Of course, when it's in the US, then the folks in
 Europe would have the same problem, so someone is always going to lose out
 in that regard. Every year that it's been in Germany, I've at least briefly
 considered not going due to the cost, but I hate the idea of missing dconf,
 so I've made it work one way or another.


And we're glad to see you every year!
Feb 24 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 6:00 PM, Manu wrote:

 Hey Brad; is it possible to strip out the HTML copy from emails before
 distribution?
 I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime
 by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;)


Yes, mailman can filter messages and message parts, but I've never used 
them and those features aren't enabled on any list I run.  I'm hesitant 
to start playing those sorts of games on lists with as many subscribers 
(on either side of the nntp/smtp divide) and as much traffic as the d 
lists get.
Feb 20 2018
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 17:09:22 Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 4:53 PM, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d

 <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter
 entirely


 but if the NG really doesn't
 want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing
 list to mechanically truncate the html,


 Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here.
 There's really no point is discussing this for hours here.
 Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues:

 https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues

 Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first git
 commit)


 Do not use the d-tester issues for non tester related issues, please.

 Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking
 into this today.  It's due to a behavior change between versions of
 mailman used on the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now)
 mail server and the current mail server.  I don't see the solution yet,
 but I'm working to figure out how to restore the previous behavior.


Well, it looks like you fixed it, since all of the recent posts seem to only
have the mailing list address in the Reply-To header.

Thanks!

- Jonathan M Davis
Feb 23 2018
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 2/20/2018 4:32 PM, Manu wrote:

 It's configurable... what seems to happen though, is that occasionally
 my setting resets.
 Perhaps google updates gmail and it resets some settings like that? I
 dunno. I don't notice when the setting resets, but Walter does.


I notice because the Thunderbird newsreader lists the line count of each post, 
and it's pretty obvious when the line count is far higher than the number of 
displayed lines.



 I agree, I can technically control this, but if the NG really doesn't
 want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing
 list to mechanically truncate the html, since that's the default
 setting for virtually all email clients anyway. Every mailing list
 user must surely commit this sin?


Generally I think it is a bad idea to edit the news files to be something 
different from what the user sent. It suggests we are editing the content as 
well, and I don't want to get into that mess. The only thing I will do is
delete 
  posts.

Yours and everyone elses' posts are exactly as received.
Feb 20 2018
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:51:54 Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 7:43 PM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:20:27 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d

 wrote:

 On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote:

 I shouldn't have your email
 address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times).


 I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me
 privately about something I posted, which happens now and then.


 I think that it's also pretty common for the e-mail address of posters
 to
 end up being visible somewhere for mailing lists - enough so that using
 an e-mail address that you don't want to be public is risky.

 Either way, having the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header is
 a problem, because that's going to tell the e-mail client to send a
 reply there. So, if the poster's e-mail address is going to be
 somewhere in the headers, it needs to be in a different header (e.g.
 the From header).

 Looking back at e-mails from the mailing list from the last few years,
 it
 looks like it used to be the case that the From header listed the user's
 name but with the mailing list's address (just like it does now), and
 the
 Reply-To header just listed the mailing list's address (whereas now, it
 lists the mailing list's e-mail address _and_ the poster's e-mail
 address). So, prior to the last update that Brad did, I don't think
 that the poster's e-mail address was available anywhere in messages
 from the mailing list.

 However, if I look at messages from several years ago, it used to be
 that
 the From field listed the poster's name and e-mail address (not the
 mailing lists's), and the Reply-To header listed the mailing list's
 address.

 So, if we want to try to hide the poster's e-mail address, the behavior
 that mailman had a few months ago would be best, whereas if we want
 that information to be available, then it's behavior from several years
 ago would be best. Either way, having Reply-To include the poster's
 e-mail address is going to result in a lot of unnecessary e-mails going
 directly to folks in addition to the mailing list.


 We cannot go back to several years ago unless you can convince the world
 to also roll back dmarc.  That travesty of justice really screwed up
 mailing lists in general.  It was designed and implemented fairly
 ignorant of the ways in which lists work.  So that's off the table.

 For the moment, we're back to the posters email is nowhere to be found,
 which is bad for some use cases.  There really is no one correct answer
 here.  Reasonable people are going to disagree.


All I'm asking for is that the Reply-To header just include the mailing list
e-mail address, because having it include the poster's e-mail address
results in folks e-mailing posters directly by accident (I've had to get in
the habit of constantly removing it when replying to the mailing list). I
have no clue how configurable mailman is for any of this. I've never used
mailing man, just mailing lists that use it.

In some respects the behavior from several years ago was better, and in some
respects the behavior from several months ago was better, and if it's
trivial for you to pick one or the other then it's debatable as to which we
should go with, and a decision could be made, but if it's not trivial, then
I see no reason to worry particularly about whether the poster's e-mail
address is in the From header or not. It's not worth you spending a ton of
time trying to figure it out. However, the Reply-To header is actively
causing problems as things stand, so if possible, it should be fixed.

- Jonathan M Davis
Feb 20 2018