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digitalmars.D - Mono-D GSoC - Mentor needed

reply "alex" <info alexanderbothe.com> writes:
Hi everyone,

It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking 
everywhere in the IRC channels but still had no success -

Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D 
project?

In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. 
(http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots )

There are couple of things that are already implemented - like a 
relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, small 
refactoring operations like they can be used in every modern IDE 
and few other things which will make application development with 
D a lot easier - especially for D newbies.
(Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so yeah, 
why not? :))

The main road map for this summer of code is available under
https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt
- Especially things like the evaluation of constant expressions 
and CTFE made e.g. a pre-compile-time view of mixin expressions 
possible! - This would be more than nice, I guess!

So if you want to support D (and perhaps me, too ;)) - be a 
mentor for GSoC to let D roll a bit more!

Further project info   http://mono-d.alexanderbothe.com
For contact, you can speak to me in the #d and #d.mono-d channel 
on freenode - I'm called 'alex|D-Guy' there
Mar 19 2012
next sibling parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 19 March 2012 at 21:18:02 UTC, alex wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking 
 everywhere in the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D 
 project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. 
 (http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots )

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - like 
 a relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, 
 small refactoring operations like they can be used in every 
 modern IDE and few other things which will make application 
 development with D a lot easier - especially for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so 
 yeah, why not? :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt
 - Especially things like the evaluation of constant expressions 
 and CTFE made e.g. a pre-compile-time view of mixin expressions 
 possible! - This would be more than nice, I guess!

 So if you want to support D (and perhaps me, too ;)) - be a 
 mentor for GSoC to let D roll a bit more!

 Further project info   http://mono-d.alexanderbothe.com
 For contact, you can speak to me in the #d and #d.mono-d 
 channel on freenode - I'm called 'alex|D-Guy' there


Bump.

This is a great project, and IMO, key to the popularity of D 
among a wider audience. Best of luck, Alex. Sounds like you've 
got some great ideas planned.
Mar 20 2012
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Christian Manning" <cmanning999 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 19 March 2012 at 21:18:02 UTC, alex wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking 
 everywhere in the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D 
 project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. 
 (http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots )

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - like 
 a relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, 
 small refactoring operations like they can be used in every 
 modern IDE and few other things which will make application 
 development with D a lot easier - especially for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so 
 yeah, why not? :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt


Surely debugging support on platforms other than linux is much 
more important than any of these things you have listed. These 
things may be nice, but absolutely unnecessary. Integrated 
debugging is a must.
Mar 20 2012
next sibling parent reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On 20 March 2012 14:34, Christian Manning <cmanning999 gmail.com> wrote:


 On Monday, 19 March 2012 at 21:18:02 UTC, alex wrote:


 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking everywhere in
 the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. (
 http://monodevelop.com/**Screenshots <http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots>)

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - like a
 relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, small refactoring
 operations like they can be used in every modern IDE and few other things
 which will make application development with D a lot easier - especially
 for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so yeah, why not?
 :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/**Mono-D/blob/master/**MonoDevelop.DBinding/**
 Remaining%20features.txt<https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt>


 Surely debugging support on platforms other than linux is much more
 important than any of these things you have listed. These things may be
 nice, but absolutely unnecessary. Integrated debugging is a must.


Debugging is great with VisualD in Windows. It's about the only thing
VisualD does really well yet, although the rest of the experience is
starting to come together. Needs a lot more polish in general.
Mar 20 2012
parent reply "Christian Manning" <cmanning999 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 13:24:40 UTC, Manu wrote:

 On 20 March 2012 14:34, Christian Manning 
 <cmanning999 gmail.com> wrote:


 On Monday, 19 March 2012 at 21:18:02 UTC, alex wrote:


 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking 
 everywhere in
 the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D 
 project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. (
 http://monodevelop.com/**Screenshots 
 <http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots>)

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - 
 like a
 relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, 
 small refactoring
 operations like they can be used in every modern IDE and few 
 other things
 which will make application development with D a lot easier - 
 especially
 for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so 
 yeah, why not?
 :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/**Mono-D/blob/master/**MonoDevelop.DBinding/**
 Remaining%20features.txt<https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt>


 Surely debugging support on platforms other than linux is much 
 more
 important than any of these things you have listed. These 
 things may be
 nice, but absolutely unnecessary. Integrated debugging is a 
 must.


 Debugging is great with VisualD in Windows. It's about the only 
 thing
 VisualD does really well yet, although the rest of the 
 experience is
 starting to come together. Needs a lot more polish in general.


I actually found myself using Mono-D for the nice completion and 
VisualD for debugging, which is a total pain and probably more 
effort than its worth :)
Mar 20 2012
next sibling parent reply "alex" <info alexanderbothe.com> writes:
 I actually found myself using Mono-D for the nice completion 
 and VisualD for debugging, which is a total pain and probably 
 more effort than its worth :)


Beta as hell ;D

But nevertheless it'd be nice if there was a mentor for this
project :)
Mar 20 2012
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 3/20/12 9:22 AM, alex wrote:

 I actually found myself using Mono-D for the nice completion and
 VisualD for debugging, which is a total pain and probably more effort
 than its worth :)


 Beta as hell ;D

 But nevertheless it'd be nice if there was a mentor for this
 project :)


I think this is a valuable project, but without a mentor we can't take 
if off the ground. Who is interested?

Thanks,

Andrei
Mar 20 2012
prev sibling parent reply James Miller <james aatch.net> writes:
On 21 March 2012 03:22, alex <info alexanderbothe.com> wrote:

 I actually found myself using Mono-D for the nice completion and VisualD
 for debugging, which is a total pain and probably more effort than its worth
 :)



 Beta as hell ;D

 But nevertheless it'd be nice if there was a mentor for this
 project :)


A bit of a side note, but is there any way that some of this work
could be made more standalone, even if somebody else has to take up
the work to finish it and make it truly standalone. I personally can't
stand fully integrated environments, but I do like things like code
completion and the like, so it would be nice to be able to use these
features in, for example, vim. I don't know how feasible this is, but
it's worth mentioning.

--
James Miller
Mar 20 2012
next sibling parent "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 22:52:13 UTC, James Miller wrote:

 features in, for example, vim.


I use this script called supertab.vim that maps tab
to vim's control+p and control+n completition.

I find it works really well, and for virtually
everything too, not just code.
Mar 20 2012
prev sibling parent reply "dnewbie" <run3 myopera.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 22:52:13 UTC, James Miller wrote:

 A bit of a side note, but is there any way that some of this 
 work
 could be made more standalone, even if somebody else has to 
 take up
 the work to finish it and make it truly standalone. I 
 personally can't
 stand fully integrated environments, but I do like things like 
 code
 completion and the like, so it would be nice to be able to use 
 these
 features in, for example, vim. I don't know how feasible this 
 is, but
 it's worth mentioning.

 --
 James Miller


Yes!! I want a standalone version too.
I like Mono-D very much, however, not being able to type the "~" 
key in MonoDevelog is really annoying.
Mar 23 2012
parent reply "Armnin Kazmi" <armin.kazmi tu-dortmund.de> writes:
On Saturday, 24 March 2012 at 03:07:10 UTC, dnewbie wrote:

 On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 22:52:13 UTC, James Miller wrote:

 A bit of a side note, but is there any way that some of this 
 work
 could be made more standalone, even if somebody else has to 
 take up
 the work to finish it and make it truly standalone. I 
 personally can't
 stand fully integrated environments, but I do like things like 
 code
 completion and the like, so it would be nice to be able to use 
 these
 features in, for example, vim. I don't know how feasible this 
 is, but
 it's worth mentioning.

 --
 James Miller


 Yes!! I want a standalone version too.
 I like Mono-D very much, however, not being able to type the 
 "~" key in MonoDevelog is really annoying.


I can't really agree here. Lets take the GSOC-List as the list of 
crucial points about the D language ecosystem which need to be 
fixed asap. All other stuff is extra and not even close as 

hence porting would be required with the implications of having 

here again...

1. We need a proper IDE
2. We need the GC problems/issues get fixed
(3. an official gc-less runtime)

At least I consider those points crucial for the success of D. 
CTFE etc. are (very) nice things, but don't make the very core of 
D any stable now.
Mar 25 2012
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2012-03-25 15:41, Armnin Kazmi wrote:


 I can't really agree here. Lets take the GSOC-List as the list of
 crucial points about the D language ecosystem which need to be fixed
 asap. All other stuff is extra and not even close as important. (Don't


 Please don't let us lose focus here again...




-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Mar 25 2012
parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
Jacob Carlborg wrote:






wouldn't bring anything new. I think it would be great to 
eventually port Alex's parser to D and make a stand alone D IDE 
but that's a much bigger project and doesn't help D in any 
critical way right now. Having an established cross-platform IDE 
support D in a way that's competitive to MS Visual Studios, does.
Mar 25 2012
prev sibling parent reply Manu <turkeyman gmail.com> writes:
On 20 March 2012 16:07, Christian Manning <cmanning999 gmail.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 13:24:40 UTC, Manu wrote:


 On 20 March 2012 14:34, Christian Manning <cmanning999 gmail.com> wrote:

  On Monday, 19 March 2012 at 21:18:02 UTC, alex wrote:

  Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking everywhere in
 the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. (
 http://monodevelop.com/****Screenshots<http://monodevelop.com/**Screenshots><
 http://monodevelop.com/**Screenshots<http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots>

)



 There are couple of things that are already implemented - like a
 relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, small
 refactoring
 operations like they can be used in every modern IDE and few other
 things
 which will make application development with D a lot easier - especially
 for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so yeah, why
 not?
 :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/****Mono-D/blob/master/****
 MonoDevelop.DBinding/**<https://github.com/aBothe/**Mono-D/blob/master/**MonoDevelop.DBinding/**>
 Remaining%20features.txt<https**://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/**
 blob/master/MonoDevelop.**DBinding/Remaining%20features.**txt<https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt>




 Surely debugging support on platforms other than linux is much more
 important than any of these things you have listed. These things may be
 nice, but absolutely unnecessary. Integrated debugging is a must.


 Debugging is great with VisualD in Windows. It's about the only thing
 VisualD does really well yet, although the rest of the experience is
 starting to come together. Needs a lot more polish in general.


 I actually found myself using Mono-D for the nice completion and VisualD
 for debugging, which is a total pain and probably more effort than its
 worth :)


Yes, I can see your motivation though :)
VisualD is starting to show signs of code understanding and
auto-completion. Goto definition has started to work in limited cases...
It's coming along.



 Mar 20 2012



  parent  "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com>  writes:


Manu wrote:

 Yes, I can see your motivation though :)
 VisualD is starting to show signs of code understanding and
 auto-completion. Goto definition has started to work in limited 
 cases...
 It's coming along.


Unfortunately It's not cross platform. This is why I like Mono-D 

Studios only I get the same experience on a Linux machine (+ some 
debugging).



 Mar 20 2012



prev sibling  parent reply "alex" <info alexanderbothe.com>  writes:


 Surely debugging support on platforms other than linux is much 
 more important than any of these things you have listed. These 
 things may be nice, but absolutely unnecessary. Integrated 
 debugging is a must.


Personally I don't want to waste time with scanning tons of API 
documentation just to find out what parameters my called phobos 
function has got.
In larger projects, with large amounts of classes and methods 
it'll be hard to find everything in a short time.
So I doubt that code completion is that unnecessary.

Debugging is important, for sure, but without having abstract 
access to the debugged code it'll be quite impossible to e.g. 
read out memory and to know what this memory represents.
Just imagine I was given a pointer address but don't know that 
it's a string[]?
And now imagine you want to debug mixed-in code? I guess you 
won't be able to do this without knowing what your mixin code 
finally looks like :)



 Mar 20 2012



  parent  "Christian Manning" <cmanning999 gmail.com>  writes:


On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 13:58:51 UTC, alex wrote:

 Surely debugging support on platforms other than linux is much 
 more important than any of these things you have listed. These 
 things may be nice, but absolutely unnecessary. Integrated 
 debugging is a must.


 Personally I don't want to waste time with scanning tons of API 
 documentation just to find out what parameters my called phobos 
 function has got.
 In larger projects, with large amounts of classes and methods 
 it'll be hard to find everything in a short time.
 So I doubt that code completion is that unnecessary.

 Debugging is important, for sure, but without having abstract 
 access to the debugged code it'll be quite impossible to e.g. 
 read out memory and to know what this memory represents.
 Just imagine I was given a pointer address but don't know that 
 it's a string[]?
 And now imagine you want to debug mixed-in code? I guess you 
 won't be able to do this without knowing what your mixin code 
 finally looks like :)


Yeh I can see its utility but I would sooner have some debugging 
support for non-mixed-in code.



 Mar 20 2012



prev sibling  parent reply "Adam Wilson" <flyboynw gmail.com>  writes:


On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:18:01 -0700, alex <info alexanderbothe.com> wrote:


 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking everywhere in  
 the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop.  
 (http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots )

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - like a  
 relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, small  
 refactoring operations like they can be used in every modern IDE and few  
 other things which will make application development with D a lot easier  
 - especially for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so yeah, why  
 not? :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt
 - Especially things like the evaluation of constant expressions and CTFE  
 made e.g. a pre-compile-time view of mixin expressions possible! - This  
 would be more than nice, I guess!

 So if you want to support D (and perhaps me, too ;)) - be a mentor for  
 GSoC to let D roll a bit more!

 Further project info   http://mono-d.alexanderbothe.com
 For contact, you can speak to me in the #d and #d.mono-d channel on  
 freenode - I'm called 'alex|D-Guy' there


I might be up for this. Can anybody fill me in on what is involved in  
being a mentor? I've never done it before, but I have some project  
management experience and I am really interested in seeing improved IDE  
integrations for D.

-- 
Adam Wilson
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/



 Mar 20 2012



 next sibling parent  Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 3/20/12 12:25 PM, Adam Wilson wrote:

 I might be up for this. Can anybody fill me in on what is involved in
 being a mentor? I've never done it before, but I have some project
 management experience and I am really interested in seeing improved IDE
 integrations for D.


Great! For details on the application process, refer to 
http://dlang.org/gsoc2012.html.

For details on what mentors are expected to do, see 
http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/
oogle/gsoc2012/faqs 
and the excellent mentor manual at 
http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCMentoring/.


Thanks,

Andrei



 Mar 20 2012



prev sibling  parent reply "alex" <info alexanderbothe.com>  writes:


On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 17:25:06 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:18:01 -0700, alex 
 <info alexanderbothe.com> wrote:


 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking 
 everywhere in the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D 
 project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. 
 (http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots )

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - like 
 a relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, 
 small refactoring operations like they can be used in every 
 modern IDE and few other things which will make application 
 development with D a lot easier - especially for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so 
 yeah, why not? :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt
 - Especially things like the evaluation of constant 
 expressions and CTFE made e.g. a pre-compile-time view of 
 mixin expressions possible! - This would be more than nice, I 
 guess!

 So if you want to support D (and perhaps me, too ;)) - be a 
 mentor for GSoC to let D roll a bit more!

 Further project info   http://mono-d.alexanderbothe.com
 For contact, you can speak to me in the #d and #d.mono-d 
 channel on freenode - I'm called 'alex|D-Guy' there


 I might be up for this. Can anybody fill me in on what is 
 involved in being a mentor? I've never done it before, but I 
 have some project management experience and I am really 
 interested in seeing improved IDE integrations for D.


Thanks for the offer!

'Unfortunately' there already is one who wants to be a mentor -
but anyway: Thanks for being willed to do this!



 Mar 20 2012



  parent reply "alex" <info alexanderbothe.com>  writes:


On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 18:27:40 UTC, alex wrote:

 On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 17:25:06 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:18:01 -0700, alex 
 <info alexanderbothe.com> wrote:


 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking 
 everywhere in the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D 
 project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop. 
 (http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots )

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - 
 like a relatively nice but fast code completion, build 
 support, small refactoring operations like they can be used 
 in every modern IDE and few other things which will make 
 application development with D a lot easier - especially for 
 D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so 
 yeah, why not? :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt
 - Especially things like the evaluation of constant 
 expressions and CTFE made e.g. a pre-compile-time view of 
 mixin expressions possible! - This would be more than nice, I 
 guess!

 So if you want to support D (and perhaps me, too ;)) - be a 
 mentor for GSoC to let D roll a bit more!

 Further project info   http://mono-d.alexanderbothe.com
 For contact, you can speak to me in the #d and #d.mono-d 
 channel on freenode - I'm called 'alex|D-Guy' there


 I might be up for this. Can anybody fill me in on what is 
 involved in being a mentor? I've never done it before, but I 
 have some project management experience and I am really 
 interested in seeing improved IDE integrations for D.


 Thanks for the offer!

 'Unfortunately' there already is one who wants to be a mentor -
 but anyway: Thanks for being willed to do this!


Oops, small mistake happened - didn't know that he was called 
"LightBender"



 Mar 20 2012



  parent  "Adam Wilson" <flyboynw gmail.com>  writes:


On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:40:49 -0700, alex <info alexanderbothe.com> wrote:


 On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 18:27:40 UTC, alex wrote:

 On Tuesday, 20 March 2012 at 17:25:06 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:

 On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:18:01 -0700, alex <info alexanderbothe.com>  
 wrote:


 Hi everyone,

 It may sounds a bit annoying because I already was asking everywhere  
 in the IRC channels but still had no success -

 Is there anyone who wants to be my GSoC mentor for the Mono-D project?

 In the case you don't know what Mono-D is all about:
 It's about creating a D language binding for MonoDevelop.  
 (http://monodevelop.com/Screenshots )

 There are couple of things that are already implemented - like a  
 relatively nice but fast code completion, build support, small  
 refactoring operations like they can be used in every modern IDE and  
 few other things which will make application development with D a lot  
 easier - especially for D newbies.
 (Debugging is also available via gdb on Linux systems - so yeah, why  
 not? :))

 The main road map for this summer of code is available under
 https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/blob/master/MonoDevelop.DBinding/Remaining%20features.txt
 - Especially things like the evaluation of constant expressions and  
 CTFE made e.g. a pre-compile-time view of mixin expressions possible!  
 - This would be more than nice, I guess!

 So if you want to support D (and perhaps me, too ;)) - be a mentor  
 for GSoC to let D roll a bit more!

 Further project info   http://mono-d.alexanderbothe.com
 For contact, you can speak to me in the #d and #d.mono-d channel on  
 freenode - I'm called 'alex|D-Guy' there


 I might be up for this. Can anybody fill me in on what is involved in  
 being a mentor? I've never done it before, but I have some project  
 management experience and I am really interested in seeing improved  
 IDE integrations for D.


 Thanks for the offer!

 'Unfortunately' there already is one who wants to be a mentor -
 but anyway: Thanks for being willed to do this!


 Oops, small mistake happened - didn't know that he was called  
 "LightBender"


  I really should put that in my sig...

-- 
Adam Wilson
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/



 Mar 20 2012