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digitalmars.D - Linus says C++ is a horrible language

reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Bring on the flame war!

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918
Sep 06 2007
next sibling parent reply John Demme <me teqdruid.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 Bring on the flame war!
 
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


Well he's certainly not afraid to speak his mind.  I wonder what he'd have
to say about D?

I've never looked at the git source, but it might be a neat project to try
and convert it to D and see how they compare.  I haven't seen too many D vs
C comparisons.

-- 
~John Demme
me teqdruid.com
Sep 06 2007
parent reply renoX <renosky free.fr> writes:
John Demme a écrit :

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Bring on the flame war!




Well he's right about the main point: memory and CPU consumption are 
'global variable' that cannot be hidden inside libraries/class: many 
times the developer use the library not as expected and the performance 
suck, it's not truly a problem of C++ more of modular development.

The only way I'd see to fix this is to be able to annotate or deduce a 
complexity formula for a function and combine those formula to have an 
idea so that the developer may have an idea of the expected performance, 
not easy to do automatically and quite time consuming if done by hand :-(


 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


 
 Well he's certainly not afraid to speak his mind.  I wonder what he'd have
 to say about D?


I doubt that he would like D too: first he (and the other Linux kernel 
developers) is truly a C expert so it'd take a lot to move him from C.

Then the discussion was about git and like Linux kernel, git was coded 
for maximum performance: so C makes sense.

That'd said, he's not 100% satisfied of C either as he invented a tool 
sparse to add additional checks, so you could say that Linux kernel is 
developed in a C-variant not truly in C.

Regards,
renoX
Sep 06 2007
parent Ingo Oeser <ioe-news rameria.de> writes:
renoX wrote:


 John Demme a écrit :

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Bring on the flame war!




 
 Well he's right about the main point: memory and CPU consumption are
 'global variable' that cannot be hidden inside libraries/class:


Yes, that is the main objective about C++ there.


 many 
 times the developer use the library not as expected and the performance
 suck, it's not truly a problem of C++ more of modular development.
 
 The only way I'd see to fix this is to be able to annotate or deduce a
 complexity formula for a function and combine those formula to have an
 idea so that the developer may have an idea of the expected performance,
 not easy to do automatically and quite time consuming if done by hand :-(


You can do that quite simply by separating function and vectorisation.
Also helpful is the separation of linear and decision making code.
These idiom are actually quite common in the Linux Kernel. 

To make the rest of them use that idiom, one would need nested functions
and sometimes lambda expressions.



 I doubt that he would like D too: first he (and the other Linux kernel
 developers) is truly a C expert so it'd take a lot to move him from C.


I doubt that. He is actually quite open to radical changes, if one can roll 
them out in small steps :-)
 

 That'd said, he's not 100% satisfied of C either as he invented a tool
 sparse to add additional checks, so you could say that Linux kernel is
 developed in a C-variant not truly in C.


Yes, that is true. Efficiency in review, getting things coded and catching 
errors as early and as significant as possible is crucial for Linus.

The closed source guys in this groups might not realise, that every line 
of Linux code is actually reviewed by at least hundreds of people, even
if most of them don't bother to comment it.

One comment I would be quite sure of: D is quite x86 (types and behaviour) 
and Windows centric (libraries) at the moment. But I'm happy, 
that good people work on these issues at this very moment.


Best Regards

Ingo Oeser
Sep 09 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 Bring on the flame war!
 
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd
like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
Sep 06 2007
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd
 like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).


My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the 
right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments 
here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions are.
Sep 06 2007
parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <thecybershadow gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com>
wrote:


 My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the
 right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments
 here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions are.


The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the OP...

-- 
Best regards,
  Vladimir                          mailto:thecybershadow gmail.com
Sep 06 2007
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Vladimir,


 On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 

 My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the
 right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments
 here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions
 are.
 


 The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the
 OP...
 


there are no replys... yet.
Sep 06 2007
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Reply to Vladimir,
 

 On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the
 right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments
 here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions
 are.


 The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the
 OP...


 
 there are no replys... yet.
 


See:

http://programming.reddit.com/info/2midn/comments
Sep 06 2007
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Walter,


 BCS wrote:
 

 Reply to Vladimir,
 

 On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the
 right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific
 comments here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup
 discussions are.
 


 The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in
 the OP...
 


 there are no replys... yet.
 


 See:
 
 http://programming.reddit.com/info/2midn/comments
 


will those ever trickle back into the NG with the origonal post?
Sep 06 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Lars,


 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Bring on the flame war!
 
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57
 918
 


 He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think
 he'd like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).
 


maybe we should try to get him to comment. based on that post, his opinion 
of what a good program is seems to jive well enough with the D philosophy* 
that he could give some good commentary but he has no reason to look with 
rose colored glasses so he might have something worthwhile to say.


* D /does/ have a philosophy and it goes something like this: C++ is a pile, 

So get the ___ out of my way so that I can wright a program that is fast 
_enough_ to work, clean _enough_ to be maintainable and small _enough_ that 
I'll actually get something done!
Sep 06 2007
parent reply Gregor Richards <Richards codu.org> writes:
BCS wrote:

 * D /does/ have a philosophy and it goes something like this: C++ is a 

 slow and So get the ___ out of my way so that I can wright a program 
 that is fast _enough_ to work, clean _enough_ to be maintainable and 
 small _enough_ that I'll actually get something done!
 
 


/me records this as a rap and posts it on Youtube.

  - Gregor Richards
Sep 06 2007
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Gregor,


 BCS wrote:
 

 * D /does/ have a philosophy 
 and it goes something like this:
 C++ is a pile,
 C doesn't scale,

 Ruby/Python are to slow and 
 So get the ___ out of my way
 so that I can wright a program 
 that is fast _enough_ to work,
 clean _enough_ to be maintainable
 and small _enough_ that I'll actually get something done!
 


 /me records this as a rap and posts it on Youtube.
 
 - Gregor Richards
 


/me likes :D 

where the Driving Cap and post a link
Sep 06 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron71 yahoo.com> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Bring on the flame war!

 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


 
 He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd
 like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).
 


Yet, he did say this in a followup post:

""
And if you want a fancier language, C++ is absolutely the worst one to
choose. If you want real high-level, pick one that has true high-level
features like garbage collection or a good system integration, rather 
than something that lacks both the sparseness and straightforwardness of 
C, *and* doesn't even have the high-level bindings to important concepts.
""
Sep 06 2007
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+spam com.gmail> writes:
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Bring on the flame war!

 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


 
 He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd
 like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).
 


Indeed. I too think there are way too many things wrong with C++ (i.e., 
it sucks), but going so far to say the "object model" is bad, is too 
much for me. I wonder how much of his opinion could be due to his 
largely kernel-specific experience.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
Sep 07 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent 0ffh <spam frankhirsch.net> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Bring on the flame war!


Yay! I liek to git it flame grilled! ;-)

Regards, Frank
Sep 06 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent kris <foo bar.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Bring on the flame war!
 
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


Linus just gained a whole lot more respect "-)
Sep 06 2007
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bruce Adams <tortoise_74 ya.nosp.am.hoo.co.nospam.uk> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:


 Bring on the flame war!
 
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


Just goes to show that even if you're a famous guru you can have an attitude
problem. Not to mention becoming blind-sided. You'll have to watch out yourself
if D gets too popular ;)

Bruce.
Sep 07 2007
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Bruce Adams wrote:

 Just goes to show that even if you're a famous guru you can have an
 attitude problem. Not to mention becoming blind-sided. You'll have to
 watch out yourself if D gets too popular ;)


I've never been accused of being modest :-)
Sep 07 2007
prev sibling parent BLS <nanali nospam-wanadoo.fr> writes:
Walter Bright schrieb:

 Bring on the flame war!
 
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918


I think it was Winston Churchill  who said at world war II
"Everybody has to do his duty"

Well here is my part. Enjoy
http://blogs.sun.com/geertjan/entry/interview_author_of_d_programming
Bjoern
Sep 07 2007