digitalmars.D - Linus says C++ is a horrible language
- Walter Bright (2/2) Sep 06 2007 Bring on the flame war!
- John Demme (9/12) Sep 06 2007 Well he's certainly not afraid to speak his mind. I wonder what he'd ha...
- renoX (18/24) Sep 06 2007 Well he's right about the main point: memory and CPU consumption are
- Ingo Oeser (20/39) Sep 09 2007 You can do that quite simply by separating function and vectorisation.
- Lars Ivar Igesund (8/11) Sep 06 2007 He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think h...
- Walter Bright (4/6) Sep 06 2007 My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the
- Vladimir Panteleev (5/8) Sep 06 2007 The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the OP...
- BCS (2/13) Sep 06 2007 there are no replys... yet.
- Walter Bright (3/19) Sep 06 2007 See:
- BCS (2/22) Sep 06 2007 will those ever trickle back into the NG with the origonal post?
- BCS (10/20) Sep 06 2007 maybe we should try to get him to comment. based on that post, his opini...
- Gregor Richards (3/10) Sep 06 2007 /me records this as a rap and posts it on Youtube.
- BCS (3/21) Sep 06 2007 /me likes :D
- Mike Parker (9/18) Sep 06 2007 Yet, he did say this in a followup post:
- Bruno Medeiros (8/17) Sep 07 2007 Indeed. I too think there are way too many things wrong with C++ (i.e.,
- 0ffh (3/4) Sep 06 2007 Yay! I liek to git it flame grilled! ;-)
- kris (2/5) Sep 06 2007 Linus just gained a whole lot more respect "-)
- Bruce Adams (3/6) Sep 07 2007 Just goes to show that even if you're a famous guru you can have an atti...
- Walter Bright (2/5) Sep 07 2007 I've never been accused of being modest :-)
- BLS (6/9) Sep 07 2007 I think it was Winston Churchill who said at world war II
Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918
Sep 06 2007
Walter Bright wrote:Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918Well he's certainly not afraid to speak his mind. I wonder what he'd have to say about D? I've never looked at the git source, but it might be a neat project to try and convert it to D and see how they compare. I haven't seen too many D vs C comparisons. -- ~John Demme me teqdruid.com
Sep 06 2007
John Demme a écrit :Walter Bright wrote:Well he's right about the main point: memory and CPU consumption are 'global variable' that cannot be hidden inside libraries/class: many times the developer use the library not as expected and the performance suck, it's not truly a problem of C++ more of modular development. The only way I'd see to fix this is to be able to annotate or deduce a complexity formula for a function and combine those formula to have an idea so that the developer may have an idea of the expected performance, not easy to do automatically and quite time consuming if done by hand :-(Bring on the flame war!I doubt that he would like D too: first he (and the other Linux kernel developers) is truly a C expert so it'd take a lot to move him from C. Then the discussion was about git and like Linux kernel, git was coded for maximum performance: so C makes sense. That'd said, he's not 100% satisfied of C either as he invented a tool sparse to add additional checks, so you could say that Linux kernel is developed in a C-variant not truly in C. Regards, renoXhttp://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918Well he's certainly not afraid to speak his mind. I wonder what he'd have to say about D?
Sep 06 2007
renoX wrote:John Demme a écrit :Yes, that is the main objective about C++ there.Walter Bright wrote:Well he's right about the main point: memory and CPU consumption are 'global variable' that cannot be hidden inside libraries/class:Bring on the flame war!many times the developer use the library not as expected and the performance suck, it's not truly a problem of C++ more of modular development. The only way I'd see to fix this is to be able to annotate or deduce a complexity formula for a function and combine those formula to have an idea so that the developer may have an idea of the expected performance, not easy to do automatically and quite time consuming if done by hand :-(You can do that quite simply by separating function and vectorisation. Also helpful is the separation of linear and decision making code. These idiom are actually quite common in the Linux Kernel. To make the rest of them use that idiom, one would need nested functions and sometimes lambda expressions.I doubt that he would like D too: first he (and the other Linux kernel developers) is truly a C expert so it'd take a lot to move him from C.I doubt that. He is actually quite open to radical changes, if one can roll them out in small steps :-)That'd said, he's not 100% satisfied of C either as he invented a tool sparse to add additional checks, so you could say that Linux kernel is developed in a C-variant not truly in C.Yes, that is true. Efficiency in review, getting things coded and catching errors as early and as significant as possible is crucial for Linus. The closed source guys in this groups might not realise, that every line of Linux code is actually reviewed by at least hundreds of people, even if most of them don't bother to comment it. One comment I would be quite sure of: D is quite x86 (types and behaviour) and Windows centric (libraries) at the moment. But I'm happy, that good people work on these issues at this very moment. Best Regards Ingo Oeser
Sep 09 2007
Walter Bright wrote:Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too). -- Lars Ivar Igesund blog at http://larsivi.net DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi Dancing the Tango
Sep 06 2007
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions are.
Sep 06 2007
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions are.The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the OP... -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:thecybershadow gmail.com
Sep 06 2007
Reply to Vladimir,On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:there are no replys... yet.My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions are.The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the OP...
Sep 06 2007
BCS wrote:Reply to Vladimir,See: http://programming.reddit.com/info/2midn/commentsOn Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:there are no replys... yet.My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions are.The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the OP...
Sep 06 2007
Reply to Walter,BCS wrote:will those ever trickle back into the NG with the origonal post?Reply to Vladimir,See: http://programming.reddit.com/info/2midn/commentsOn Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:39:10 +0300, Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:there are no replys... yet.My interest in these types of things is to see if we are making the right decisions about what to fix from C++. Linus' specific comments here aren't too useful in that regard, but the followup discussions are.The followup discussion can't be seen from the linked supplied in the OP...
Sep 06 2007
Reply to Lars,Walter Bright wrote:maybe we should try to get him to comment. based on that post, his opinion of what a good program is seems to jive well enough with the D philosophy* that he could give some good commentary but he has no reason to look with rose colored glasses so he might have something worthwhile to say. * D /does/ have a philosophy and it goes something like this: C++ is a pile, So get the ___ out of my way so that I can wright a program that is fast _enough_ to work, clean _enough_ to be maintainable and small _enough_ that I'll actually get something done!Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57 918He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).
Sep 06 2007
BCS wrote:* D /does/ have a philosophy and it goes something like this: C++ is a slow and So get the ___ out of my way so that I can wright a program that is fast _enough_ to work, clean _enough_ to be maintainable and small _enough_ that I'll actually get something done!/me records this as a rap and posts it on Youtube. - Gregor Richards
Sep 06 2007
Reply to Gregor,BCS wrote:/me likes :D where the Driving Cap and post a link* D /does/ have a philosophy and it goes something like this: C++ is a pile, C doesn't scale, Ruby/Python are to slow and So get the ___ out of my way so that I can wright a program that is fast _enough_ to work, clean _enough_ to be maintainable and small _enough_ that I'll actually get something done!/me records this as a rap and posts it on Youtube. - Gregor Richards
Sep 06 2007
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:Walter Bright wrote:Yet, he did say this in a followup post: "" And if you want a fancier language, C++ is absolutely the worst one to choose. If you want real high-level, pick one that has true high-level features like garbage collection or a good system integration, rather than something that lacks both the sparseness and straightforwardness of C, *and* doesn't even have the high-level bindings to important concepts. ""Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).
Sep 06 2007
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:Walter Bright wrote:Indeed. I too think there are way too many things wrong with C++ (i.e., it sucks), but going so far to say the "object model" is bad, is too much for me. I wonder how much of his opinion could be due to his largely kernel-specific experience. -- Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#DBring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918He also gives the "object model" quite a bit of flac, so I don't think he'd like D either, after all it's an object oriented language (too).
Sep 07 2007
Walter Bright wrote:Bring on the flame war!Yay! I liek to git it flame grilled! ;-) Regards, Frank
Sep 06 2007
Walter Bright wrote:Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918Linus just gained a whole lot more respect "-)
Sep 06 2007
Walter Bright Wrote:Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918Just goes to show that even if you're a famous guru you can have an attitude problem. Not to mention becoming blind-sided. You'll have to watch out yourself if D gets too popular ;) Bruce.
Sep 07 2007
Bruce Adams wrote:Just goes to show that even if you're a famous guru you can have an attitude problem. Not to mention becoming blind-sided. You'll have to watch out yourself if D gets too popular ;)I've never been accused of being modest :-)
Sep 07 2007
Walter Bright schrieb:Bring on the flame war! http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918I think it was Winston Churchill who said at world war II "Everybody has to do his duty" Well here is my part. Enjoy http://blogs.sun.com/geertjan/entry/interview_author_of_d_programming Bjoern
Sep 07 2007