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digitalmars.D - Lifetime study group

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Hello everyone,


Following a number of discussions with Walter regarding lifetime 
management for class objects, we've had a small epiphany: we need to 
frame collaboration better. Let me explain.

There are a number of very good folks here with type system-y stuff: 
Timon, Amaury, Michel, and more. For all I know each of them is better 
than I could be. In the past Walter and I would show DIP74 and people 
would point out mistakes and insufficiencies in it. That was suboptimal; 
it has put potential collaborators in a contrarian, negative position. 
Instead, we should co-opt our talented contributors to do positive work, 
not spend time countering inferior work.

For what I know Amaury is working alone on a DIP regarding ownership 
types. That's great, but I think we could do even better by helping a 
more collaborative environment.

So by this I'm asking folks' participation to a study group on object 
lifetime. Walter and I believe we must make reference counting for 
classes work, and that Rust-style schemes are too complex for their own 
good. But we're very willing to be convinced otherwise.

Normally we'd be holding this on the forum, but as we all know, forum 
discussions tend to meander a lot and lose focus. For that reason, 
please write me email about joining a mailing list dedicated to 
discussions on object lifetime - a study group. The outcome should be a 
DIP that moves forward safe lifetime management for D.


Thanks,

Andrei
Oct 26 2015
next sibling parent reply Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 27/10/15 3:45 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Hello everyone,


 Following a number of discussions with Walter regarding lifetime
 management for class objects, we've had a small epiphany: we need to
 frame collaboration better. Let me explain.

 There are a number of very good folks here with type system-y stuff:
 Timon, Amaury, Michel, and more. For all I know each of them is better
 than I could be. In the past Walter and I would show DIP74 and people
 would point out mistakes and insufficiencies in it. That was suboptimal;
 it has put potential collaborators in a contrarian, negative position.
 Instead, we should co-opt our talented contributors to do positive work,
 not spend time countering inferior work.

 For what I know Amaury is working alone on a DIP regarding ownership
 types. That's great, but I think we could do even better by helping a
 more collaborative environment.

 So by this I'm asking folks' participation to a study group on object
 lifetime. Walter and I believe we must make reference counting for
 classes work, and that Rust-style schemes are too complex for their own
 good. But we're very willing to be convinced otherwise.

 Normally we'd be holding this on the forum, but as we all know, forum
 discussions tend to meander a lot and lose focus. For that reason,
 please write me email about joining a mailing list dedicated to
 discussions on object lifetime - a study group. The outcome should be a
 DIP that moves forward safe lifetime management for D.


 Thanks,

 Andrei


Is it possible to have a read only interface/receiving?
Because I'm interested in the content, but not enough knowledge to 
actually talk about it.
Oct 26 2015
next sibling parent Guillaume Chatelet <chatelet.guillaume gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 02:56:56 UTC, Rikki Cattermole 
wrote:

 Is it possible to have a read only interface/receiving?
 Because I'm interested in the content, but not enough knowledge 
 to actually talk about it.


+1
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/26/15 10:56 PM, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 Is it possible to have a read only interface/receiving?
 Because I'm interested in the content, but not enough knowledge to
 actually talk about it.


Then you may want to join and opt not to post. -- Andrei
Oct 27 2015
parent reply ixid <adamsibson hotmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:41:30 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 10/26/15 10:56 PM, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 Is it possible to have a read only interface/receiving?
 Because I'm interested in the content, but not enough 
 knowledge to
 actually talk about it.


 Then you may want to join and opt not to post. -- Andrei


I understand the desire to keep it focused but it would seem very 
unfortunate not to have it at least read-only mirrored on the 
forum. That would set a direction for the future that the 
discussion will happen out of sight. I would love to see the 
contents of the discussion but have nothing to contribute to such 
a degree that I'm certainly not signing up for the mailing group.
Oct 27 2015
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/27/2015 08:29 AM, ixid wrote:

 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:41:30 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 10/26/15 10:56 PM, Rikki Cattermole wrote:

 Is it possible to have a read only interface/receiving?
 Because I'm interested in the content, but not enough knowledge to
 actually talk about it.


 Then you may want to join and opt not to post. -- Andrei


 I understand the desire to keep it focused but it would seem very
 unfortunate not to have it at least read-only mirrored on the forum.
 That would set a direction for the future that the discussion will
 happen out of sight. I would love to see the contents of the discussion
 but have nothing to contribute to such a degree that I'm certainly not
 signing up for the mailing group.


There is the risk that two parallel discussions develop - the mailing 
list and the bleachers. Then folks on the mailing list start replying to 
the list etc. etc.

What I do want to do is keep the discussion focused and that cannot 
happen in the chaotic, ever-meandering forum environment.


Andrei
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent rsw0x <anonymous anonymous.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 02:45:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 So by this I'm asking folks' participation to a study group on 
 object lifetime. Walter and I believe we must make reference 
 counting for classes work, and that Rust-style schemes are too 
 complex for their own good. But we're very willing to be 
 convinced otherwise.


+1, but don't forget about structs.
With inc/dec elision, most of the overhead of RC is avoided 
anyways - I'll see if I can find the paper where someone did it 
for a common lisp implementation and it reduced inc/dec counts by 
90% or some-such.
Oct 26 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Robert burner Schadek <rburners gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 02:45:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Normally we'd be holding this on the forum, but as we all know, 
 forum discussions tend to meander a lot and lose focus. For 
 that reason, please write me email about joining a mailing list 
 dedicated to discussions on object lifetime - a study group. 
 The outcome should be a DIP that moves forward safe lifetime 
 management for D.


+1, but creating a dedicated mailing list feels exclusive to me 
again. I would at least like to read what they are talking about 
once a while. Maybe mark the threads "experts only" or something.
Oct 27 2015
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/27/15 4:42 AM, Robert burner Schadek wrote:

 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 02:45:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Normally we'd be holding this on the forum, but as we all know, forum
 discussions tend to meander a lot and lose focus. For that reason,
 please write me email about joining a mailing list dedicated to
 discussions on object lifetime - a study group. The outcome should be
 a DIP that moves forward safe lifetime management for D.


 +1, but creating a dedicated mailing list feels exclusive to me again.


I don't plan to be selective about admission. Whoever wants to join can 
join. All we need is to not make the discussion part of the general 
forum entertainment.


 I
 would at least like to read what they are talking about once a while.
 Maybe mark the threads "experts only" or something.


So I'll add you to the list then.


Andrei
Oct 27 2015
next sibling parent Robert burner Schadek <rburners gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:48:21 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 So I'll add you to the list then.


Acknowledged
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling parent reply Guillaume Chatelet <chatelet.guillaume gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:48:21 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 So I'll add you to the list then.


Please add me to the list too. Thx !
Oct 27 2015
parent reply Mithun Hunsur <me philpax.me> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 12:56:48 UTC, Guillaume Chatelet 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:48:21 UTC, Andrei 
 Alexandrescu wrote:

 So I'll add you to the list then.


 Please add me to the list too. Thx !


Please add me as well; lifetime management is a matter of great 
interest to me, especially with regards to avoiding the GC.
Oct 27 2015
parent Daniel Kozak via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
V Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:00:29 +0000
Mithun Hunsur via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> napsáno:


 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 12:56:48 UTC, Guillaume Chatelet 
 wrote:

 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:48:21 UTC, Andrei 
 Alexandrescu wrote:  

 So I'll add you to the list then.  


 Please add me to the list too. Thx !  


 
 Please add me as well; lifetime management is a matter of great 
 interest to me, especially with regards to avoiding the GC.


Please add me too. Thanks
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> writes:
Invite-only mail list with archive being published via 
forum.dlang.org interface (read-only) sounds like a best match to 
be.

I agree that public NG is not very suitable for any serious 
technical case study, this has been the recurring pattern.
Oct 27 2015
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/27/15 5:01 AM, Dicebot wrote:

 Invite-only mail list with archive being published via forum.dlang.org
 interface (read-only) sounds like a best match to be.


Ah, interesting. Vladimir, do you think you could rig such a list? -- Andrei
Oct 27 2015
next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:49:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 10/27/15 5:01 AM, Dicebot wrote:

 Invite-only mail list with archive being published via 
 forum.dlang.org
 interface (read-only) sounds like a best match to be.


 Ah, interesting. Vladimir, do you think you could rig such a 
 list? -- Andrei


I can add it to forum.dlang.org after Brad sets up the actual 
mailing list. I don't host any mailing lists myself.

Although I could in theory begin hosting mailing lists, the one 
time I tried it was very unpleasant and non-trivial and seems 
like a disproportionate amount of effort for this project.

What's wrong with a thread on the current MLs? I might be wrong 
but it seems that the amount of discussion on how to discuss the 
matter is already disproportionate to the amount of discussion on 
the matter itself. Besides, we have too many dead MLs already 
(dmd-concurrency? Digitalmars-d-dtl?)
Oct 27 2015
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/27/15 5:55 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 I might be wrong but it seems that the amount of discussion on how to
 discuss the matter is already disproportionate to the amount of
 discussion on the matter itself.


At least past experience suggests you're very wrong about that :o). -- 
Andrei
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 09:49:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 10/27/15 5:01 AM, Dicebot wrote:

 Invite-only mail list with archive being published via 
 forum.dlang.org
 interface (read-only) sounds like a best match to be.


 Ah, interesting. Vladimir, do you think you could rig such a 
 list? -- Andrei


Isn't the Beta mailing list essentially that right now? I recall 
folks complaining about it being only a mailing list such that 
they couldn't post to it via nntp or the web forums. And if 
that's the case, then it's probably pretty straightforward to 
treat this new list the same way.

- Jonathan M Davis
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ponce <contact gam3sfrommars.fr> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 02:45:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Lifetime study group


Ain't nobody got time for a lifetime of study?

;)
Oct 27 2015
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 12:20:06 UTC, ponce wrote:

 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 02:45:24 UTC, Andrei 
 Alexandrescu wrote:

 Lifetime study group


 Ain't nobody got time for a lifetime of study?

 ;)


You can choose to see it as a lethal dose.

Also, Andrei, sign me in (I sent you a direct email, but in case 
you missed it).
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2015-10-27 03:45, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 Normally we'd be holding this on the forum, but as we all know, forum
 discussions tend to meander a lot and lose focus. For that reason,
 please write me email about joining a mailing list dedicated to
 discussions on object lifetime - a study group. The outcome should be a
 DIP that moves forward safe lifetime management for D.


I would like to join the mailing list as well.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent Meta <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 02:45:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Normally we'd be holding this on the forum, but as we all know, 
 forum discussions tend to meander a lot and lose focus. For 
 that reason, please write me email about joining a mailing list 
 dedicated to discussions on object lifetime - a study group. 
 The outcome should be a DIP that moves forward safe lifetime 
 management for D.


Please add me as well.
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
Sign me up as read-only, if there won't be public archives 
somewhere.
Oct 27 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Thanks to all interested! Brad Roberts created a mailing list. Please 
subscribe here:

http://lists.puremagic.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dlang-study

That will be a list for several other topics, so please prefix new post 
about lifetime with "[lifetime]".


Thanks,

Andrei
Oct 27 2015
parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 21:12:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Thanks to all interested! Brad Roberts created a mailing list. 
 Please subscribe here:

 http://lists.puremagic.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dlang-study

 That will be a list for several other topics, so please prefix 
 new post about lifetime with "[lifetime]".


Added to forum.dlang.org.

Posting via the forum is "allowed", with the same restrictions as 
posting by email, so to filter out noise simply moderate new 
posts.
Oct 27 2015
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/27/2015 10:50 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 21:12:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Thanks to all interested! Brad Roberts created a mailing list. Please
 subscribe here:

 http://lists.puremagic.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dlang-study

 That will be a list for several other topics, so please prefix new
 post about lifetime with "[lifetime]".


 Added to forum.dlang.org.

 Posting via the forum is "allowed", with the same restrictions as
 posting by email, so to filter out noise simply moderate new posts.


Can folks who did not subscribe via mailman post? -- Andrei
Oct 28 2015
parent Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 28 October 2015 at 14:53:01 UTC, Andrei 
Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 10/27/2015 10:50 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 at 21:12:24 UTC, Andrei 
 Alexandrescu wrote:

 Thanks to all interested! Brad Roberts created a mailing 
 list. Please
 subscribe here:

 http://lists.puremagic.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dlang-study

 That will be a list for several other topics, so please 
 prefix new
 post about lifetime with "[lifetime]".


 Added to forum.dlang.org.

 Posting via the forum is "allowed", with the same restrictions 
 as
 posting by email, so to filter out noise simply moderate new 
 posts.


 Can folks who did not subscribe via mailman post? -- Andrei


No, AFAIK the mailing list server drops emails coming from 
addresses not in the subscribers roster, regardless of the 
mailing list.
Oct 28 2015
prev sibling parent reply Dejan Lekic <dejan.lekic gmail.com> writes:
I suggest we do not try to reinvent the wheel.
Simply take a look how existing, large communities do this kind 
of work.

Example: https://jcp.org/en/jsr/all

For each large feature (a good example in the D case would be 
pattern matching, allocators, reference counting, additional 
garbage collectors, etc) a special working group should be 
formed. With initial working group owner who manages the group 
(adds other owners, collaborators, or some other types of users). 
Each group would work at own pace until they come up with a good 
design, and after that the group does the implementation as well. 
Each group would have own repository where they commit their 
work. Organising such groups can be uniform (something I think is 
better), or each group organises itself.

Naturally, it is probably a full-time job for someone to 
coordinate with groups, does overall monitoring, etc.

Each group can, and probably will, gain interest of the academic 
world, something we should encourage, and help PhD/MSc students 
jump in relevant groups to the benefits of both.

Also, each working group can be tied to a GSoC project, mentored 
by people from the community.

This will add an extra level of seriousness to the D project as I 
prefer to call it.
Oct 28 2015
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 10/28/2015 01:41 PM, Dejan Lekic wrote:

 I suggest we do not try to reinvent the wheel.
 Simply take a look how existing, large communities do this kind of work.

 Example: https://jcp.org/en/jsr/all

 For each large feature (a good example in the D case would be pattern
 matching, allocators, reference counting, additional garbage collectors,
 etc) a special working group should be formed. With initial working
 group owner who manages the group (adds other owners, collaborators, or
 some other types of users). Each group would work at own pace until they
 come up with a good design, and after that the group does the
 implementation as well. Each group would have own repository where they
 commit their work. Organising such groups can be uniform (something I
 think is better), or each group organises itself.

 Naturally, it is probably a full-time job for someone to coordinate with
 groups, does overall monitoring, etc.

 Each group can, and probably will, gain interest of the academic world,
 something we should encourage, and help PhD/MSc students jump in
 relevant groups to the benefits of both.

 Also, each working group can be tied to a GSoC project, mentored by
 people from the community.

 This will add an extra level of seriousness to the D project as I prefer
 to call it.


Yup, that's the plan and dlang-study is the first step of it. -- Andre
Oct 28 2015