digitalmars.D - Internationalization support and format strings
- Bruno Haible (35/35) Mar 24 Hi,
- Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole (8/37) Mar 24 Needs to be discussed.
- Bruno Haible (54/62) Mar 25 Hmm, you mean, instead of specifying a fixed order:
- Bruno Haible (17/20) Mar 25 Another reason why it's better to keep a fixed order of
- Paul Backus (3/9) Mar 24 Have you seen this package?
- Bruno Haible (12/17) Mar 25 Thanks for the hint. Yes, I have looked at all of these:
- Steven Schveighoffer (11/23) Mar 25 https://code.dlang.org/packages/gettext is, as far as I know,
Hi, The GNU gettext package contains tools for internationalization, enabling a programmer to make their package "speak" to the users in their specific language. GNU gettext so far supports a number of programming languages, see https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_node/List-of-Programming-Languages.html I thought it would be a good idea to make GNU gettext support also the D programming language. This is a registered wish list item since 2017: https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?51291 . On the D side, a rudimentary interface to the gettext() function in the GNU C library exists as well: https://code.dlang.org/packages/libintl I am now trying to implement this support. I am already done with the xgettext support (parsing D source code and extracting messages). But from the programming language, this support also needs format strings with positions (so that translators can reorder arguments in their translations of format strings). D has format strings in its standard library (phobos): https://dlang.org/library/std/format.html But this format string facility has 4 major bugs: https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10699 https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10711 https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10712 https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10713 Two questions: 1) How can this be, that a programming language that is more than 20 years old and that is integrated into GCC for 6 years, has a format string facility that is riddled with bugs? Is D only a playground for compiler hackers and not used for real applications, and thus the standard library is "uninteresting"? 2) How should I continue? What advice would you give me? Should I wait until the format string bugs are fixed (and if so, in which time frame)? Or should I cancel the GNU gettext support for D ? Best regards. I don't want to offend anyone. If you feel an offense, please excuse it with frustration on my side.
Mar 24
On 25/03/2025 11:39 AM, Bruno Haible wrote:Hi, The GNU gettext package contains tools for internationalization, enabling a programmer to make their package "speak" to the users in their specific language. GNU gettext so far supports a number of programming languages, see https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_node/List-of- Programming-Languages.html I thought it would be a good idea to make GNU gettext support also the D programming language. This is a registered wish list item since 2017: https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?51291 . On the D side, a rudimentary interface to the gettext() function in the GNU C library exists as well: https://code.dlang.org/packages/libintl I am now trying to implement this support. I am already done with the xgettext support (parsing D source code and extracting messages). But from the programming language, this support also needs format strings with positions (so that translators can reorder arguments in their translations of format strings). D has format strings in its standard library (phobos): https:// dlang.org/library/std/format.html But this format string facility has 4 major bugs:https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10699Needs to be discussed. Requires sentinel value, and right now its typed as a ubyte.https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10711I think its more that docs are wrong here, rather than implementation.https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10712I'm not sure about this one, it looks funky, but at least its easy enough to work around with. I'll leave it to someone else.https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10713https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/10714
Mar 24
Bruno Haible <bruno clisp.org> Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:Thanks for handling this one.https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10713https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/10714Hmm, you mean, instead of specifying a fixed order: Parameters: Position Flags Width Precision Separator the spec should specify arbitrary order? Parameters: empty Parameter Parameters Parameter: Position Flags Width Precision Separator If that is intended, then 1) Is it valid to specify two positions, two widths, two precisions, or two separators? For example %1$2$d %.3.5d %,3,5d And if it is valid, does the first position/width/precision/separator matter, or the last one? 2) Since Flags can start with a digit 0, how do you disambiguate Flags after Width, Precision, or Separator? For example %40d %.50d %,50d The current spec, with the fixed order, is better at avoiding these ambiguities.https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10711I think its more that docs are wrong here, rather than implementation.Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10712I'm not sure about this one, it looks funky, but at least its easy enough to work around with.Such a workaround does not help me with the internationalization. The situation with the internationalization is: 1) The programmer specifies a format string as a gettext() argument. For instance, gettext("%s is replaced with %*s") or "%s is replaced with %*s".gettext 2) The translator decides whether they need reordering, and thus translates "%s is replaced with %*s" with "%3$*2$d ersetzt %1$s" 3) The GNU msgfmt program verifies that the translator's translation "matches", based on the specification of format strings. There is no programmer that could add a workaround, since the programmer is not involved after step 1. And the translator usually does not try their translations "live". So, what is really needed here, is not a possible workaround but an implementation of std.format that is in sync with its specification.
Mar 25
Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:Another reason why it's better to keep a fixed order of Position Flags Width Precision Separator is the runtime execution (implemented in std/format/write.d, function formattedWrite). This function currently processes width, precision, separators in that order. Now, think of a format string such as "%,*.**d" The programmer would expect that argument 1 are the separator digits, argument 2 is the precision, argument 3 is the width, and argument 4 is the value to be formatted. If you don't change formattedWrite, it will actually use argument 1 for the width, argument 2 for the precision, argument 3 for the separator digits — which doesn't match programmer expectations. Whereas if you change formattedWrite to use the arguments in the order in which they were referenced in the format string, you are slowing down the formatting at runtime.https://github.com/dlang/phobos/issues/10711I think its more that docs are wrong here, rather than implementation.
Mar 25
On Monday, 24 March 2025 at 22:39:11 UTC, Bruno Haible wrote:I thought it would be a good idea to make GNU gettext support also the D programming language. This is a registered wish list item since 2017: https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?51291 . On the D side, a rudimentary interface to the gettext() function in the GNU C library exists as well: https://code.dlang.org/packages/libintlHave you seen this package? https://code.dlang.org/packages/gettext
Mar 24
Paul Backus wrote:Thanks for the hint. Yes, I have looked at all of these: https://code.dlang.org/packages/libintl https://code.dlang.org/packages/gettext https://code.dlang.org/packages/i18nd https://code.dlang.org/packages/mofile https://code.dlang.org/packages/djtext They all have very small "Download Stats", indicating that their actual use in applications is nonexistent or irrelevant. From these five packages, the one that comes closest to having a usable API, on par with the gettext APIs for other programming languages, is https://code.dlang.org/packages/libintl .On the D side, a rudimentary interface to the gettext() function in the GNU C library exists as well: https://code.dlang.org/packages/libintlHave you seen this package? https://code.dlang.org/packages/gettext
Mar 25
On Tuesday, 25 March 2025 at 09:23:56 UTC, Bruno Haible wrote:Paul Backus wrote:https://code.dlang.org/packages/gettext is, as far as I know, being used in a real application, and was developed specifically for that application, for one of D's major users in industry (see Bastiaan's talk in 2023: https://dconf.org/2023/#veelob) I would focus on that one for de-facto standardization. Likely it has a small number of users, but would be actively fixed if issues are found. And also, the formatting bugs should all be fixed as well, regardless of gettext support. -SteveHave you seen this package? https://code.dlang.org/packages/gettextThanks for the hint. Yes, I have looked at all of these: https://code.dlang.org/packages/libintl https://code.dlang.org/packages/gettext https://code.dlang.org/packages/i18nd https://code.dlang.org/packages/mofile https://code.dlang.org/packages/djtext They all have very small "Download Stats", indicating that their actual use in applications is nonexistent or irrelevant.
Mar 25