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digitalmars.D - How much time will D1 be around?

reply Ary Borenszweig <ary esperanto.org.ar> writes:
Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will take 
until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will anyone 
still use it?

I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to 
Descent to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for D1, 
except for some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a lot of 
time. :-P

For D2, there's still missing a lot of semantic analysis porting from 
DMD, and doing that is kind of boring (adding new features, that's fun). 
But if I add features to D1 and it will be gone soon, what's the point? 
Also, I feel that the great majority of the people here don't see an IDE 
as a helpful programming tool.

But, in another point of view, I see a lot of big differences between D1 
and D2. For instance, I don't like const/invariant, I don't care about 
that, I never had bugs or trouble or performance problems because of 
mutability problems, so I consider D1 easier to grasp. So I wonder if 
anyone else thinks "No matter what will happen, I'll probably just stick 
with D1".

What do you think about all this?

Thanks,
Ary
Nov 11 2008
next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Ary Borenszweig" <ary esperanto.org.ar> wrote in message 
news:gfbpfb$fob$1 digitalmars.com...

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will take 
 until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will anyone 
 still use it?

 I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to Descent 
 to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for D1, except for 
 some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a lot of time. :-P

 For D2, there's still missing a lot of semantic analysis porting from DMD, 
 and doing that is kind of boring (adding new features, that's fun). But if 
 I add features to D1 and it will be gone soon, what's the point? Also, I 
 feel that the great majority of the people here don't see an IDE as a 
 helpful programming tool.


I find IDE's to be extremely helpful programming tools. But then again, I 
also find Eclipse to be more trouble than it's worth (for reasons that 
people are probably tired of hearing me yammer on about ;) ).


 But, in another point of view, I see a lot of big differences between D1 
 and D2. For instance, I don't like const/invariant, I don't care about 
 that, I never had bugs or trouble or performance problems because of 
 mutability problems, so I consider D1 easier to grasp. So I wonder if 
 anyone else thinks "No matter what will happen, I'll probably just stick 
 with D1".


I don't know about anyone else, but for me, I plan to switch to D2. I 
suppose I might switch back to D1 if I end up *really* not liking all the 
const/immutable/etc stuff after using D2, but I don't think that will 
happen. That is an interesting question though, about overall satisfaction 
level with some of D2's bigger changes.


 What do you think about all this?

 Thanks,
 Ary
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Ary Borenszweig <ary esperanto.org.ar> wrote:

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will take
 until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will anyone still
 use it?

 I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to Descent
 to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for D1, except for
 some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a lot of time. :-P

 For D2, there's still missing a lot of semantic analysis porting from DMD,
 and doing that is kind of boring (adding new features, that's fun). But if I
 add features to D1 and it will be gone soon, what's the point? Also, I feel
 that the great majority of the people here don't see an IDE as a helpful
 programming tool.

 But, in another point of view, I see a lot of big differences between D1 and
 D2. For instance, I don't like const/invariant, I don't care about that, I
 never had bugs or trouble or performance problems because of mutability
 problems, so I consider D1 easier to grasp. So I wonder if anyone else
 thinks "No matter what will happen, I'll probably just stick with D1".

 What do you think about all this?


Walter has said that he'll keep supporting D1 as long as people are
using it.  But I don't think he specified how many individuals he
considers to be "people" as opposed to "hardly anybody".

I plan to move to D2 at some point after DWT supports it.  Which means
as soon as DWT and Tango support it.  I'm not particularly excited
about const either, but I am excited about the fixed template bugs
which have been categorized as new D2 features.  And I don't think
I'll hate using D2s const, either.  It's just a little more than I was
looking for in a const system.  And I do believe it has a good chance
of giving D a leg up in the multicore world eventually.  I just don't
write a lot of multicore code right now, and D2 doesn't actually have
any multicore support to take advantage of the const system yet,
either.

After reading a post Sean Kelly made about using 'in' for D2
compatibility I started marking function arguments that I intended to
be const as 'in' in my D1 code.  Even if I don't ever port the code to
D2, it's a handy way to document that the argument is not going to be
modified.  It's just an unenforced convention in D1, but it's still
handy.  Beats the "/*const*/ arg" annotation I was using previously.
:-)

--bb
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Ary Borenszweig wrote:


 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will take
 until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will anyone
 still use it?


I am sure quite many will - not everyone like all the new features. Also it is
far from trivial to port larger programs/libraries to D2, meaning that it will
take time, and if the D1 version is meant to be supported in the same time
frame, it will take even longer. Just because of this it'll probably take a
year or two even if everyone want to switch.

Furthermore, that DMD supports D2 isn't enough to say that all tools supports
D2, and so from the point D2 goes stable, it will be quite some time before
all/relevant tools are stable.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
"Ary Borenszweig" <ary esperanto.org.ar> wrote in message 
news:gfbpfb$fob$1 digitalmars.com...

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will take 
 until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will anyone 
 still use it?


<snip>

Some even better questions:

- Will the D1 spec ever be finished?
- Will we ever have a complete D1 compiler?

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail address is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies 
on the 'group where everybody may benefit.
Nov 11 2008
next sibling parent Mike James <foo bar.com> writes:
 - Will we ever have a complete D1 compiler?


Agreed...

At least let us have one production-grade D1 compiler that we can use.


-=mike=-
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling parent reply Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:

 "Ary Borenszweig" <ary esperanto.org.ar> wrote in message 
 news:gfbpfb$fob$1 digitalmars.com...

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will 
 take until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will 
 anyone still use it?


 <snip>
 
 Some even better questions:
 
 - Will the D1 spec ever be finished?
 - Will we ever have a complete D1 compiler?
 
 Stewart.
 


Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?
Nov 11 2008
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


10 to 20 get fixed every release.
Nov 11 2008
next sibling parent reply "Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:gfd3r9$8iq$1 digitalmars.com...

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


So why not those that lead towards either getting the D1 spec finished or 
having a complete D1 compiler?

- The last d1.0blocker nominee to be resolved was more than a year ago
- The last dependency of issue 677 to be resolved was more than a year ago

It's true that two dependencies of issue 340 were marked resolved more 
recently ... but still, you can do better!

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail address is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies 
on the 'group where everybody may benefit.
Nov 11 2008
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:

 "Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
 news:gfd3r9$8iq$1 digitalmars.com...

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


 
 So why not those that lead towards either getting the D1 spec finished 
 or having a complete D1 compiler?


I do 10 to 20 every release on D1. It's right there in the change log. I 
don't understand the notion that it is not being improved / maintained / 
fixed / etc.
Nov 11 2008
next sibling parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Walter,



 I do 10 to 20 every release on D1. It's right there in the change log.
 I don't understand the notion that it is not being improved /
 maintained / fixed / etc.
 


I think what their taking issue with the your choice of bug to fix.

(I haven't even considered this so I'm not going to forward an opinion)
Nov 11 2008
next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"BCS" <ao pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:78ccfa2d3539b8cb1231703319c2 news.digitalmars.com...

 Reply to Walter,



 I do 10 to 20 every release on D1. It's right there in the change log.
 I don't understand the notion that it is not being improved /
 maintained / fixed / etc.


 I think what their taking issue with the your choice of bug to fix.

 (I haven't even considered this so I'm not going to forward an opinion)


I think we're all aware how certain bugs can be more/less related to other 
bugs, and can be harder/easier to fix. If a D1 bug gets fixed that seems 
rather unimportant, I'd just assume it was either low hanging fruit or 
closely related to another bug. So as anxious as I am to see all the bugs 
fixed, I'm not complaining unless Walter comes out and says "I'm 
deliberately choosing less important bugs to fix, just to annoy people".
Nov 11 2008
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Nick,


 "BCS" <ao pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:78ccfa2d3539b8cb1231703319c2 news.digitalmars.com...
 

 Reply to Walter,
 

 I do 10 to 20 every release on D1. It's right there in the change
 log. I don't understand the notion that it is not being improved /
 maintained / fixed / etc.
 


 I think what their taking issue with the your choice of bug to fix.
 
 (I haven't even considered this so I'm not going to forward an
 opinion)
 


 I think we're all aware how certain bugs can be more/less related to
 other bugs, and can be harder/easier to fix. If a D1 bug gets fixed
 that seems rather unimportant, I'd just assume it was either low
 hanging fruit or closely related to another bug. So as anxious as I am
 to see all the bugs fixed, I'm not complaining unless Walter comes out
 and says "I'm deliberately choosing less important bugs to fix, just
 to annoy people".
 


I would only be annoyed if he was not even considering what we are interested 
in getting fixed. As long as that's part of the processes, I'm not going 
to complain (much ;).
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling parent reply Ary Borenszweig <ary esperanto.org.ar> writes:
BCS escribió:

 Reply to Walter,
 (I haven't even considered this so I'm not going to forward an opinion)


Is that an intended pun? :-)
Nov 11 2008
parent BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Ary,


 BCS escribió:
 

 Reply to Walter,
 (I haven't even considered this so I'm not going to forward an
 opinion)


 Is that an intended pun? :-)
 


AAAaahhhh. Darn!! I missed that. What a lost opportunity!
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Walter Bright
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Stewart Gordon wrote:

 "Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:gfd3r9$8iq$1 digitalmars.com...

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


 So why not those that lead towards either getting the D1 spec finished or
 having a complete D1 compiler?


 I do 10 to 20 every release on D1. It's right there in the change log. I
 don't understand the notion that it is not being improved / maintained /
 fixed / etc.


It's a simple flow problem.  You might be fixing 15 bugs with each
release, but if you consider that 30 new bugs are added to the
bugzilla each month, you will never fix them all, or even come close.

It's not that it's your fault, either.  You have a limited amount of
time.  So how about starting to incorporate the numerous patches
people have added to the bugzilla?  It's not like the DMDFE can get
any _worse_.
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 It's not like the DMDFE can get any _worse_.


I try to avoid responding to you for the most part, but when you make
statements that are so obviously uncalled for and egregiously rude, I
can't help it.

This is over the top out of line, imho.

Sigh,
Brad
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 It's not like the DMDFE can get any _worse_.


 I try to avoid responding to you for the most part, but when you make


Wow, I wasn't aware you had this kind of disdain for me.  I'd be
interested to know why.  Yeah, I know, as you're reading this you're
palming your forehead and going "wow! how can he be so oblivious!"
But no, seriously.


 statements that are so obviously uncalled for and egregiously rude, I
 can't help it.

 This is over the top out of line, imho.


My comment was not really meant to provoke, but I suppose that it
could be taken that way, and for that I apologize.

The point I'd've liked to have made is that yes - Walter has
(obviously!) done a lot for D.  Without him, D would not exist.  But
the fact is - and I doubt you'll find many who will disagree with me -
it doesn't matter how awesome Walter is, or how much of a visionary he
is, or how good his managerial skills are; DMDFE is just buggy, no
offense meant to Walter as a person.  That there are 30 new bugs
posted to the bugzilla every month from a relatively small group of
users is testament that DMDFE is buggy.  And the current development
model of "have people put things in bugzilla where there is a very
good chance that they will never get fixed" and "be extremely
skeptical of any and all patches that people submit" does not work.
As I said - simple flow problem.  30 in, 15 out.  Eventually the tank
is going to overflow.
Nov 11 2008
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 The point I'd've liked to have made is that yes - Walter has
 (obviously!) done a lot for D.  Without him, D would not exist.  But
 the fact is - and I doubt you'll find many who will disagree with me -
 it doesn't matter how awesome Walter is, or how much of a visionary he
 is, or how good his managerial skills are; DMDFE is just buggy, no
 offense meant to Walter as a person.  That there are 30 new bugs
 posted to the bugzilla every month from a relatively small group of
 users is testament that DMDFE is buggy.  And the current development
 model of "have people put things in bugzilla where there is a very
 good chance that they will never get fixed" and "be extremely
 skeptical of any and all patches that people submit" does not work.
 As I said - simple flow problem.  30 in, 15 out.  Eventually the tank
 is going to overflow.


It's normal for something as complex as a compiler to have literally 
thousands of bugs in it. I remember once years back when rumor had it 
that MS fixed 2000 bugs in one update of VC alone. Eventually things 
will settle down.

The point, also, is not the bug *count*. It's whether or not particular 
bugs matter. Most of them simply do not matter beyond looking bad, 
because they do not prevent one from using the compiler.
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> wrote:

 Jarrett Billingsley wrote:

 It's not like the DMDFE can get any _worse_.


 I try to avoid responding to you for the most part, but when you make


 
 Wow, I wasn't aware you had this kind of disdain for me.  I'd be
 interested to know why.  Yeah, I know, as you're reading this you're
 palming your forehead and going "wow! how can he be so oblivious!"
 But no, seriously.


I overstated it, but mostly to drive home the point.  It's primarily the
level of negativity you show on most threads that mention compiler bugs.
 You just can't seem to help but exaggerate and use antagonistic phrasing.


 statements that are so obviously uncalled for and egregiously rude, I
 can't help it.

 This is over the top out of line, imho.


 
 My comment was not really meant to provoke, but I suppose that it
 could be taken that way, and for that I apologize.


How in the world can a statement like that NOT be taken that way?  DMD
is obviously a very usable compiler.  It could get a hell of a lot worse.


 The point I'd've liked to have made is that yes - Walter has
 (obviously!) done a lot for D.  Without him, D would not exist.  But
 the fact is - and I doubt you'll find many who will disagree with me -
 it doesn't matter how awesome Walter is, or how much of a visionary he
 is, or how good his managerial skills are; DMDFE is just buggy, no
 offense meant to Walter as a person.  That there are 30 new bugs
 posted to the bugzilla every month from a relatively small group of
 users is testament that DMDFE is buggy.  And the current development
 model of "have people put things in bugzilla where there is a very
 good chance that they will never get fixed" and "be extremely
 skeptical of any and all patches that people submit" does not work.
 As I said - simple flow problem.  30 in, 15 out.  Eventually the tank
 is going to overflow.


Depends on your definition of buggy.  If it's the extreme of "there is
at least one known / unfixed bug" then yes, it's buggy.  But so is every
other compiler produced for every other language out there.  Hardly a
useful definition.

As to "have people put things in bugzilla where there is a very good
chance that they will never get fixed".. what do you suggest people do?
 Keep them to themselves and hope they get fixed?  Hope someone else
stumbles into the same bug and files it for them?  Those are certainly
good ways of dealing with them (dripping sarcasm, yes).

I won't try to speak for why bugs with patches haven't all been
resolved, since I have no extra insight into Walter's brain.  I to wish
they'd get more attention due to the symbiotic relationship they build.

So.. seemed like it might be interesting to pull some stats from
bugzilla.  For all of the below, the data is restricted to bugs filed
for the product 'D' (leaving out dgcc, dmc, dstress, puremagic.com, and
testproduct).  Filed means any status.  Resolved means status is
resolved, verified, or closed.  Open means status is unconfirmed, new,
assigned, or reopened.

An important point before getting into the actual numbers.  Raw numbers
are just that.. raw.  Not all bugs are of equal weight.  The fact that
there are open bugs is NOT a sign of anything other than that there open
issues.  It doesn't provide any way to judge the usability or quality of
the code upon which the bugs have been reported.  There's _some_
qualitative measure based on severity, but as this field isn't terribly
actively/accurately maintained in d's bugzilla, it's risky to use it
though I did break out the stats for that a little in the numbers below.

Per month for all versions:
  jan 2008: 54 filed, of which 30 are resolved
  feb 2008: 65 filed, of which 37 are resolved
  mar 2008: 70 filed, of which 15 are resolved
  apr 2008: 87 filed, of which 28 are resolved
  may 2008: 68 filed, of which 33 are resolved
  jun 2008: 47 filed, of which 18 are resolved
  jul 2008: 67 filed, of which 25 are resolved
  aug 2008: 62 filed, of which 28 are resolved
  sep 2008: 55 filed, of which 22 are resolved
  oct 2008: 52 filed, of which  8 are resolved
  nov 2008: 12 filed, of which  1  is resolved


Some 0.x and 1.x combined stats:
  390 open prior to 2008
  908 resolved prior to 2008

  137 open for 2008
   99 resolved for 2008
-----
527 of 1534 bugs still open.  That's just over 34% open vs 66% resolved.
That's a far cry from "there is a very good chance that they will never
get fixed".  Even if you look at just 2008's percentages, 58% open vs
42% resolved.  Not as good, but still not super bleak.


Some 2.x stats:
  75 opened 2.x bugs prior to 2008
  75 resolved 2.x bugs prior to 2008

  215 opened 2.x bugs during 2008
  111 resolved 2.x bugs during 2008
-----
290 of 476 bugs still open.  That's just shy of 61% open vs 39% resolved.


Taking a look at the stats for the bugs with severity regression,
blocker, or critical:
  30 (24%) open 0.x/1.x
  94 (76%) resolve 0.x/1.x

  15 (33%) open 2.x
  30 (67%) resolved 2.x


Bugs with patches attached and marked as patches:
  10 (26%) open 0.x/1.x
  29 (74%) resolved 0.x/1.x

   8 (67%) open 2.x
   4 (33%) resolved 2.x

There's 239 filed issues that don't specify a version.  Of those, 118
(49%) are open and 121 (51%) resolved.  So not wildly different from the
above data.

Well, enough searching of bugzilla for tonight.

Later,
Brad
Nov 12 2008
parent Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

Nice stats. However, I think the perceived issue is that unless a bug is
resolved in a fairly short time after it was submitted, the chance that it is
_ever_ resolved is reduced drastically - and as it happens, several of the bugs
in that category are indeed very annoying to many people, and some even have
attached frontend patches, which is why there will continue to be something
close to hard feelings on this matter.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon:

but still, you can do better!<


Try with a whip, it's more effective with very lazy people like the bad Walter
:-)

Bye,
bearophile
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling parent reply Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 
 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


True, sorry. I just tend to run into a few of them consistently that 
haven't gotten in yet.
Nov 11 2008
parent reply "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


 True, sorry. I just tend to run into a few of them consistently that haven't
 gotten in yet.


You've gotten Walter's attention now, so you might as well make the
most of it and mention which ones it is you're running into.  Don't
waste the opportunity!

--bb
Nov 11 2008
parent reply Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com>
wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


 True, sorry. I just tend to run into a few of them consistently that haven't
 gotten in yet.


 
 You've gotten Walter's attention now, so you might as well make the
 most of it and mention which ones it is you're running into.  Don't
 waste the opportunity!
 
 --bb


Everyone has a list of three or four bugs, and most of these lists are 
disjoint.

Right now, I'm trying to solve one on my own, without much luck. My 
pestering Walter is just adding to the problem, so I will stop.
Nov 11 2008
parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr bellevue.puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Christopher Wright wrote:


 Bill Baxter wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com>
 wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


 True, sorry. I just tend to run into a few of them consistently that
 haven't
 gotten in yet.


 
 You've gotten Walter's attention now, so you might as well make the
 most of it and mention which ones it is you're running into.  Don't
 waste the opportunity!
 
 --bb


 
 Everyone has a list of three or four bugs, and most of these lists are
 disjoint.
 
 Right now, I'm trying to solve one on my own, without much luck. My pestering
 Walter is just adding to the problem, so I will stop.


There actually is something to the squeaky wheel in this case.  With 
limited time and resources, those bugs identified as causing grief have 
added weight.  Obviously it's not quite that cut and dry, but asking for 
specific bugs to be fixed amongst the pile of bugs _does_ increase the 
chances they'll be part of the next set.

Make a list of your top 2 or 3 and re-iterate why they're your top bugs.. 
can't hurt (much).

Later,
Brad
Nov 11 2008
next sibling parent "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Christopher Wright wrote:


 Bill Baxter wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com>
 wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:

 Christopher Wright wrote:

 Even better, will the large body of existing bugs ever be fixed?


 10 to 20 get fixed every release.


 True, sorry. I just tend to run into a few of them consistently that
 haven't
 gotten in yet.


 You've gotten Walter's attention now, so you might as well make the
 most of it and mention which ones it is you're running into.  Don't
 waste the opportunity!

 --bb


 Everyone has a list of three or four bugs, and most of these lists are
 disjoint.

 Right now, I'm trying to solve one on my own, without much luck. My pestering
 Walter is just adding to the problem, so I will stop.


 There actually is something to the squeaky wheel in this case.  With
 limited time and resources, those bugs identified as causing grief have
 added weight.  Obviously it's not quite that cut and dry, but asking for
 specific bugs to be fixed amongst the pile of bugs _does_ increase the
 chances they'll be part of the next set.

 Make a list of your top 2 or 3 and re-iterate why they're your top bugs..
 can't hurt (much).


Exactly what I was in the process of writing, though not as well as
you've put it.

Walter's pretty good at fixing the bugs he knows are really getting in
the way of people getting their work done.  (Unless it happens to be
one of the big monster bugs like "fix forward referencing".)

--bb
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling parent reply Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 There actually is something to the squeaky wheel in this case.  With 
 limited time and resources, those bugs identified as causing grief have 
 added weight.  Obviously it's not quite that cut and dry, but asking for 
 specific bugs to be fixed amongst the pile of bugs _does_ increase the 
 chances they'll be part of the next set.
 
 Make a list of your top 2 or 3 and re-iterate why they're your top bugs.. 
 can't hurt (much).
 
 Later,
 Brad


How about voting for bugs? That would be fair, and it would make sure 
that the bugs that hurt more people get fixed faster.
Nov 12 2008
parent reply "Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
"Christopher Wright" <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:gfeho4$2iuo$1 digitalmars.com...
<snip>

 How about voting for bugs? That would be fair, and it would make sure that 
 the bugs that hurt more people get fixed faster.


Bugzilla has a voting system, in which you basically vote for the n issues 
that you most want fixed, where n is a per-product configuration parameter. 
But it doesn't seem to be enabled on our Bugzilla.

Walter - if Brad enables this feature, do you promise you'll take notice of 
it in the process of deciding what to fix next?

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail address is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies 
on the 'group where everybody may benefit.
Nov 12 2008
next sibling parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
Stewart Gordon wrote:

 "Christopher Wright" <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:gfeho4$2iuo$1 digitalmars.com...
 <snip>

 How about voting for bugs? That would be fair, and it would make sure
 that the bugs that hurt more people get fixed faster.


 
 Bugzilla has a voting system, in which you basically vote for the n
 issues that you most want fixed, where n is a per-product configuration
 parameter. But it doesn't seem to be enabled on our Bugzilla.
 
 Walter - if Brad enables this feature, do you promise you'll take notice
 of it in the process of deciding what to fix next?
 
 Stewart.
 


My primary issue with bugzilla's voting system is that it's blind:
there's no recording of why it's important.  That said, I won't block
it's use if Walter and enough of the community think it's the right
thing to do.

Docs on the voting system for the version of bugzilla we're using
(upgrading is on my low priority todo list, but I think the voting
system stays the same):

  http://www.bugzilla.org/docs/2.20/html/voting.html

Later,
Brad
Nov 12 2008
parent "Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
"Brad Roberts" <braddr puremagic.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.385.1226514259.3087.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
<snip>

 My primary issue with bugzilla's voting system is that it's blind:
 there's no recording of why it's important.  That said, I won't block
 it's use if Walter and enough of the community think it's the right
 thing to do.


<snip>

There was a feature request for Bugzilla to enable comments to be attached 
to votes
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164310
but it seems to have been rejected.

But at least Bugzilla enables users to post comments on bugs/RFEs, and this 
is certainly an improvement over the eigenpoll.  With votes enabled, we 
would have the combination of votes and comments to aid in decision-making.

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail address is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies 
on the 'group where everybody may benefit.
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent reply "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> wrote:

 "Christopher Wright" <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:gfeho4$2iuo$1 digitalmars.com...
 <snip>

 How about voting for bugs? That would be fair, and it would make sure that
 the bugs that hurt more people get fixed faster.


 Bugzilla has a voting system, in which you basically vote for the n issues
 that you most want fixed, where n is a per-product configuration parameter.
 But it doesn't seem to be enabled on our Bugzilla.

 Walter - if Brad enables this feature, do you promise you'll take notice of
 it in the process of deciding what to fix next?


My suspicion is that would turn out to be about as useful as that "D
wishlist" eigenpoll thingy somebody set up.  As far as I can tell that
only reflects the opinions of the few people who have a lot of extra
time to bother with voting.

--bb
Nov 12 2008
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> wrote:

 "Christopher Wright" <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:gfeho4$2iuo$1 digitalmars.com...
 <snip>

 How about voting for bugs? That would be fair, and it would make sure that
 the bugs that hurt more people get fixed faster.


 Bugzilla has a voting system, in which you basically vote for the n issues
 that you most want fixed, where n is a per-product configuration parameter.
 But it doesn't seem to be enabled on our Bugzilla.

 Walter - if Brad enables this feature, do you promise you'll take notice of
 it in the process of deciding what to fix next?


 
 My suspicion is that would turn out to be about as useful as that "D
 wishlist" eigenpoll thingy somebody set up.  As far as I can tell that
 only reflects the opinions of the few people who have a lot of extra
 time to bother with voting.


However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad 
to enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding 
there's no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some 
insight into what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could 
use such information to good effect.

Andrei
Nov 12 2008
next sibling parent reply "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:36 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 Bill Baxter wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com>
 wrote:

 "Christopher Wright" <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:gfeho4$2iuo$1 digitalmars.com...
 <snip>

 How about voting for bugs? That would be fair, and it would make sure
 that
 the bugs that hurt more people get fixed faster.


 Bugzilla has a voting system, in which you basically vote for the n
 issues
 that you most want fixed, where n is a per-product configuration
 parameter.
 But it doesn't seem to be enabled on our Bugzilla.

 Walter - if Brad enables this feature, do you promise you'll take notice
 of
 it in the process of deciding what to fix next?


 My suspicion is that would turn out to be about as useful as that "D
 wishlist" eigenpoll thingy somebody set up.  As far as I can tell that
 only reflects the opinions of the few people who have a lot of extra
 time to bother with voting.


 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad to
 enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding there's
 no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some insight into
 what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could use such
 information to good effect.


Another thing is that you can already cast a kind of vote by adding a
comment to the bug saying "ouch, this one is hurting".   That causes
it to appear on the bugs newsgroup, which gives it some renewed
visibility.  But maybe people don't realize they can do this.  Or
don't think it matters.  Having a "vote here" button may help in those
cases.  I kinda doubt it, but I'd love to be wrong.

--bb
Nov 12 2008
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 Another thing is that you can already cast a kind of vote by adding a
 comment to the bug saying "ouch, this one is hurting".   That causes
 it to appear on the bugs newsgroup, which gives it some renewed
 visibility.  But maybe people don't realize they can do this.  Or
 don't think it matters.  Having a "vote here" button may help in those
 cases.  I kinda doubt it, but I'd love to be wrong.


You're right that the comments do matter, because if someone spent the 
time to write a thoughtful comment it shows interest in it.

A lot of forum software (like reddit) can sort messages by "hotness", 
"newness", or "controversial". Those provide interesting slices on the 
database.
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad 
 to enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding 
 there's no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some 
 insight into what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could 
 use such information to good effect.


Sure, let's give it a try.
Nov 12 2008
parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr bellevue.puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Walter Bright wrote:


 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad to
 enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding there's
 no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some insight into
 what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could use such
 information to good effect.


 
 Sure, let's give it a try.


Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and can 
vote only once per bug.  As examples, I voted for bugs 313 and 314.

You can use this query to get a sorted list of bugs on which there are at 
least one vote:

  http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&votes=1&order=bugs.votes,bugs.bug_id

To construct the query yourself: on the advanced search page, put a 1 in 
the "Only issues with at least ___ votes" box.

Later,
Brad
Nov 12 2008
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad to
 enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding there's
 no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some insight into
 what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could use such
 information to good effect.


 Sure, let's give it a try.


 
 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and can 
 vote only once per bug.  As examples, I voted for bugs 313 and 314.
 
 You can use this query to get a sorted list of bugs on which there are at 
 least one vote:
 
   http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&votes=1&order=bugs.votes,bugs.bug_id
 
 To construct the query yourself: on the advanced search page, put a 1 in 
 the "Only issues with at least ___ votes" box.


Great! Thanks, Brad.

Andrei
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Walter Bright wrote:


 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad to
 enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding there's
 no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some insight into
 what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could use such
 information to good effect.


 Sure, let's give it a try.


 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and can
 vote only once per bug.  As examples, I voted for bugs 313 and 314.

 You can use this query to get a sorted list of bugs on which there are at
 least one vote:

  http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&votes=1&order=bugs.votes,bugs.bug_id


That's a handy query.
Can you put that on the top D page, say here:
http://d.puremagic.com/issues/

That would also serve a second purpose of advertising that there is
this voting system in place.

--bb
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr bellevue.puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Brad Roberts wrote:


 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad to
 enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding there's
 no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some insight into
 what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could use such
 information to good effect.


 
 Sure, let's give it a try.


 
 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and can 
 vote only once per bug.  As examples, I voted for bugs 313 and 314.
 
 You can use this query to get a sorted list of bugs on which there are at 
 least one vote:
 
   http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&votes=1&order=bugs.votes,bugs.bug_id
 
 To construct the query yourself: on the advanced search page, put a 1 in 
 the "Only issues with at least ___ votes" box.
 
 Later,
 Brad


I'd like to suggest that 'umbrella' sorts of bugs are off limits for 
votes.  Those are good tracking issues, but aren't the sort of things that 
are generally addressed as a specific fix.

An example, sorry Bill: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1856

Maybe better said: I suspect that Walter is unlikely to take votes for 
those sorts of bugs seriously and the impact votes might have at all are 
better placed on individual specific issues.

Just a thought,
Brad
Nov 12 2008
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Brad Roberts wrote:
 

 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Walter Bright wrote:


 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad to
 enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding there's
 no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some insight into
 what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could use such
 information to good effect.


 Sure, let's give it a try.


 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and can 
 vote only once per bug.  As examples, I voted for bugs 313 and 314.

 You can use this query to get a sorted list of bugs on which there are at 
 least one vote:

   http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&votes=1&order=bugs.votes,bugs.bug_id

 To construct the query yourself: on the advanced search page, put a 1 in 
 the "Only issues with at least ___ votes" box.

 Later,
 Brad


 
 I'd like to suggest that 'umbrella' sorts of bugs are off limits for 
 votes.  Those are good tracking issues, but aren't the sort of things that 
 are generally addressed as a specific fix.
 
 An example, sorry Bill: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1856
 
 Maybe better said: I suspect that Walter is unlikely to take votes for 
 those sorts of bugs seriously and the impact votes might have at all are 
 better placed on individual specific issues.
 
 Just a thought,
 Brad


It's a good thought. In that vein, it would be nice to have negative 
vote, e.g. assert that a bug is not important. To build good statistics 
I suggest therefore (a) unlimited votes per user; (b) one vote per user 
per bug; (c) a vote can be 0 (neutral, implied); -1 (unimportant for 
me); 1 (important for me).

Andrei
Nov 12 2008
parent Brad Roberts <braddr bellevue.puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 I'd like to suggest that 'umbrella' sorts of bugs are off limits for votes.
 Those are good tracking issues, but aren't the sort of things that are
 generally addressed as a specific fix.
 
 An example, sorry Bill: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1856
 
 Maybe better said: I suspect that Walter is unlikely to take votes for those
 sorts of bugs seriously and the impact votes might have at all are better
 placed on individual specific issues.
 
 Just a thought,
 Brad


 
 It's a good thought. In that vein, it would be nice to have negative vote,
 e.g. assert that a bug is not important. To build good statistics I suggest
 therefore (a) unlimited votes per user; (b) one vote per user per bug; (c) a
 vote can be 0 (neutral, implied); -1 (unimportant for me); 1 (important for
 me).
 
 Andrei


I'm not going to spend my time modifying the bugzilla code, so negative  
votes are out.  Additionally, I don't want to see people getting into a 
vote war.  Express your opinion, not that someone elses opinions are 
irrelevant.  If a bug is a non-bug, then it should be just closed.

As to why a limit, so that people are forced to be particular.  There's 
limited bandwidth, so pick those that are really important to you.  As 
they're fixed, move the vote to something else really important.

Again, I'll do what the community wants within the bounds of the current 
capabilities.  So if the number of votes or the number of votes per person 
per bug needs to be increased I certainly can.

Later,
Brad
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Brad Roberts wrote:


 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Walter Bright wrote:


 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 However, bugs are a more structured space than wishes. I'd suggest Brad to
 enable the voting feature experimentally and with an understanding there's
 no underlying promise. I'd personally be curious to gather some insight into
 what bugs are the most annoying, and I'm sure Walter could use such
 information to good effect.


 Sure, let's give it a try.


 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and can
 vote only once per bug.  As examples, I voted for bugs 313 and 314.

 You can use this query to get a sorted list of bugs on which there are at
 least one vote:

   http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&votes=1&order=bugs.votes,bugs.bug_id

 To construct the query yourself: on the advanced search page, put a 1 in
 the "Only issues with at least ___ votes" box.

 Later,
 Brad


 I'd like to suggest that 'umbrella' sorts of bugs are off limits for
 votes.  Those are good tracking issues, but aren't the sort of things that
 are generally addressed as a specific fix.

 An example, sorry Bill: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1856

 Maybe better said: I suspect that Walter is unlikely to take votes for
 those sorts of bugs seriously and the impact votes might have at all are
 better placed on individual specific issues.


Fair enough, but it's going to be hard to enforce if it's not enforced
by the system.

Also, my reason for voting for that one was that I was thinking of the
votes as "hey Walter you should pay attention to this one."   If
that's what it means, then the umbrella ones should be voted up even
more because they contain a lot of useful information about what's
bugging people.

--bb
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008, Bill Baxter wrote:


 I'd like to suggest that 'umbrella' sorts of bugs are off limits for
 votes.  Those are good tracking issues, but aren't the sort of things that
 are generally addressed as a specific fix.

 An example, sorry Bill: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1856

 Maybe better said: I suspect that Walter is unlikely to take votes for
 those sorts of bugs seriously and the impact votes might have at all are
 better placed on individual specific issues.

 Later,
 Brad


 
 Fair enough, but it's going to be hard to enforce if it's not enforced
 by the system.
 
 Also, my reason for voting for that one was that I was thinking of the
 votes as "hey Walter you should pay attention to this one."   If
 that's what it means, then the umbrella ones should be voted up even
 more because they contain a lot of useful information about what's
 bugging people.
 
 --bb


I have no intention of enforcing it.. just making a suggestion.

Later,
Brad
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and can 
 vote only once per bug.


What is the motivation behind limiting the total number of votes a user 
may have? I think that may blunt the statistics a bit.

Andrei
Nov 12 2008
next sibling parent reply Frits van Bommel <fvbommel REMwOVExCAPSs.nl> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Brad Roberts wrote:

 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and 
 can vote only once per bug.


 
 What is the motivation behind limiting the total number of votes a user 
 may have? I think that may blunt the statistics a bit.


Presumably it's to force you to only vote for the ones you consider most 
important.
This way you may not be able to vote for every issue you ever ran into 
and instead have to pick the ones that bug you most (no pun intended). 
In theory, this could lead to more meaningful results, especially as 
time passes.
Nov 12 2008
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Frits van Bommel wrote:

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Brad Roberts wrote:

 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and 
 can vote only once per bug.


 What is the motivation behind limiting the total number of votes a 
 user may have? I think that may blunt the statistics a bit.


 
 Presumably it's to force you to only vote for the ones you consider most 
 important.
 This way you may not be able to vote for every issue you ever ran into 
 and instead have to pick the ones that bug you most (no pun intended). 
 In theory, this could lead to more meaningful results, especially as 
 time passes.


Hmmm... If a user has unlimited votes they can't manipulate the system. 
Say they vote 1 for every single bug. That simply means an additional 
bias is in the system, which does not influence the ranking.

So the limit of 10 is really an arbitrary cap on the number of bugs a 
given person can consider important.

As time passes, this only gets worse. Say I "consumed" my 10 votes. Then 
I find a showstopper for my code. Well I need to decide which of the 
other bugs I don't "care" for anymore. Why do I need to make that decision?

Don't introduce arbitrary aperture windows in the system. Let the 
statistics do its work.


Andrei
Nov 12 2008
parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr bellevue.puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 Frits van Bommel wrote:

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Brad Roberts wrote:

 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and
 can vote only once per bug.


 
 What is the motivation behind limiting the total number of votes a user
 may have? I think that may blunt the statistics a bit.


 
 Presumably it's to force you to only vote for the ones you consider most
 important.
 This way you may not be able to vote for every issue you ever ran into and
 instead have to pick the ones that bug you most (no pun intended). In
 theory, this could lead to more meaningful results, especially as time
 passes.


 
 Hmmm... If a user has unlimited votes they can't manipulate the system. Say
 they vote 1 for every single bug. That simply means an additional bias is in
 the system, which does not influence the ranking.
 
 So the limit of 10 is really an arbitrary cap on the number of bugs a given
 person can consider important.
 
 As time passes, this only gets worse. Say I "consumed" my 10 votes. Then I
 find a showstopper for my code. Well I need to decide which of the other bugs
 I don't "care" for anymore. Why do I need to make that decision?
 
 Don't introduce arbitrary aperture windows in the system. Let the statistics
 do its work.
 
 Andrei


Do you have more than 10 you want to vote for?  It's not a cap on how many 
are important.  It's a cap on how many you can suggest are the ones that 
time should most urgently be spent on.

Anyway, like I said, I'll change it if there's sufficient interest and so 
far there clearly hasn't been. :)

Later,
Brad
Nov 12 2008
parent reply "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 Frits van Bommel wrote:

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Brad Roberts wrote:

 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and
 can vote only once per bug.


 What is the motivation behind limiting the total number of votes a user
 may have? I think that may blunt the statistics a bit.


 Presumably it's to force you to only vote for the ones you consider most
 important.
 This way you may not be able to vote for every issue you ever ran into and
 instead have to pick the ones that bug you most (no pun intended). In
 theory, this could lead to more meaningful results, especially as time
 passes.


 Hmmm... If a user has unlimited votes they can't manipulate the system. Say
 they vote 1 for every single bug. That simply means an additional bias is in
 the system, which does not influence the ranking.

 So the limit of 10 is really an arbitrary cap on the number of bugs a given
 person can consider important.

 As time passes, this only gets worse. Say I "consumed" my 10 votes. Then I
 find a showstopper for my code. Well I need to decide which of the other bugs
 I don't "care" for anymore. Why do I need to make that decision?

 Don't introduce arbitrary aperture windows in the system. Let the statistics
 do its work.

 Andrei


 Do you have more than 10 you want to vote for?  It's not a cap on how many
 are important.  It's a cap on how many you can suggest are the ones that
 time should most urgently be spent on.

 Anyway, like I said, I'll change it if there's sufficient interest and so
 far there clearly hasn't been. :)


I like the limit of 10 better than not having a limit.  I'd like it
even more if I could cast multiple votes for a single issue.  (For
instance, The StackOverflow UserVoice site's voting system lets you
cast up to 3 of your votes for a particular issue.)

--bb
Nov 12 2008
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Bill Baxter wrote:

 On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 Frits van Bommel wrote:

 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Brad Roberts wrote:

 Ok, enabled for the D product.  Each registered user has 10 votes and
 can vote only once per bug.


 What is the motivation behind limiting the total number of votes a user
 may have? I think that may blunt the statistics a bit.


 Presumably it's to force you to only vote for the ones you consider most
 important.
 This way you may not be able to vote for every issue you ever ran into and
 instead have to pick the ones that bug you most (no pun intended). In
 theory, this could lead to more meaningful results, especially as time
 passes.


 Hmmm... If a user has unlimited votes they can't manipulate the system. Say
 they vote 1 for every single bug. That simply means an additional bias is in
 the system, which does not influence the ranking.

 So the limit of 10 is really an arbitrary cap on the number of bugs a given
 person can consider important.

 As time passes, this only gets worse. Say I "consumed" my 10 votes. Then I
 find a showstopper for my code. Well I need to decide which of the other bugs
 I don't "care" for anymore. Why do I need to make that decision?

 Don't introduce arbitrary aperture windows in the system. Let the statistics
 do its work.

 Andrei


 Do you have more than 10 you want to vote for?  It's not a cap on how many
 are important.  It's a cap on how many you can suggest are the ones that
 time should most urgently be spent on.

 Anyway, like I said, I'll change it if there's sufficient interest and so
 far there clearly hasn't been. :)


 
 I like the limit of 10 better than not having a limit.  I'd like it
 even more if I could cast multiple votes for a single issue.  (For
 instance, The StackOverflow UserVoice site's voting system lets you
 cast up to 3 of your votes for a particular issue.)


Upon more thinking, I feel it is interesting to start with a capped 
number of votes. And yes, I agree the freedom of "concentrating" one's 
capital on certain bugs should help.

Andrei
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 What is the motivation behind limiting the total number of votes a user 
 may have? I think that may blunt the statistics a bit.


I think it forces selectivity by making each vote a bit more valuable.
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:

 Ok, enabled for the D product.


Thanks!
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Bill Baxter" <wbaxter gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.386.1226518025.3087.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...

 On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> 
 wrote:

 "Christopher Wright" <dhasenan gmail.com> wrote in message
 news:gfeho4$2iuo$1 digitalmars.com...
 <snip>

 How about voting for bugs? That would be fair, and it would make sure 
 that
 the bugs that hurt more people get fixed faster.


 Bugzilla has a voting system, in which you basically vote for the n 
 issues
 that you most want fixed, where n is a per-product configuration 
 parameter.
 But it doesn't seem to be enabled on our Bugzilla.

 Walter - if Brad enables this feature, do you promise you'll take notice 
 of
 it in the process of deciding what to fix next?


 My suspicion is that would turn out to be about as useful as that "D
 wishlist" eigenpoll thingy somebody set up.  As far as I can tell that
 only reflects the opinions of the few people who have a lot of extra
 time to bother with voting.


My feeling has been that that poll has had limited use due to its awkward 
interface (no offense to the creator). At least, that's why I haven't gotten 
around to using it yet.
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent Jason House <jason.james.house gmail.com> writes:
Ary Borenszweig Wrote:


 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will take 
 until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will anyone 
 still use it?


I switched last week, but still consider D2 Tango a requirement for my
prolonged use of D2.

 

 I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to 
 Descent to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for D1, 
 except for some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a lot of 
 time. :-P


I downloaded Descent last night.

 

 For D2, there's still missing a lot of semantic analysis porting from 
 DMD, and doing that is kind of boring (adding new features, that's fun). 
 But if I add features to D1 and it will be gone soon, what's the point? 
 Also, I feel that the great majority of the people here don't see an IDE 
 as a helpful programming tool.
 
 But, in another point of view, I see a lot of big differences between D1 
 and D2. For instance, I don't like const/invariant, I don't care about 
 that, I never had bugs or trouble or performance problems because of 
 mutability problems, so I consider D1 easier to grasp. So I wonder if 
 anyone else thinks "No matter what will happen, I'll probably just stick 
 with D1".


So far, I haven't used the const keyword once in my D2 code. It may not be as
people think it might be. 


 
 What do you think about all this?
 
 Thanks,
 Ary
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:14 AM, Ary Borenszweig <ary esperanto.org.ar> wrote:

 For D2, there's still missing a lot of semantic analysis porting from DMD,
 and doing that is kind of boring (adding new features, that's fun). But if I
 add features to D1 and it will be gone soon, what's the point? Also, I feel
 that the great majority of the people here don't see an IDE as a helpful
 programming tool.


If you consider that D2 is more or less a superset of D1, working on
D1 features in Descent definitely isn't useless.  Most/all of them
would carry over.
Nov 11 2008
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Frits van Bommel <fvbommel REMwOVExCAPSs.nl> writes:
Ary Borenszweig wrote:

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will take 
 until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will anyone 
 still use it?


I think I might keep using it for a while yet. D2 has some features I 
dislike. On the other hand, some others are very tempting...


 I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to 
 Descent to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for D1, 
 except for some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a lot of 
 time. :-P


Well, some places I'm still really missing semantic analysis in Descent:
* Nested functions (their bodies don't seem to get analyzed)
* Mixins (functions defined by (string) mixins don't get highlighting, 
don't show up in code completion, etc.)

Or are those the "hard to fix"/"take a lot of time" cases? (Or fixed in 
trunk but not up on the update site?)


 For D2, there's still missing a lot of semantic analysis porting from 
 DMD, and doing that is kind of boring (adding new features, that's fun). 
 But if I add features to D1 and it will be gone soon, what's the point? 


The features I mentioned above are in D2 as well as in D1, so it's not 
necessarily either/or... ;)


 Also, I feel that the great majority of the people here don't see an IDE 
 as a helpful programming tool.


It's certainly very helpful to me. Though Eclipse does tend to use a lot 
of memory here, so sometimes I get frustrated and revert to Scite for a 
while.


 But, in another point of view, I see a lot of big differences between D1 
 and D2. For instance, I don't like const/invariant, I don't care about 
 that, I never had bugs or trouble or performance problems because of 
 mutability problems, so I consider D1 easier to grasp. So I wonder if 
 anyone else thinks "No matter what will happen, I'll probably just stick 
 with D1".


At the very least, I'll still be using D1 for several projects I don't 
intend to port in any case unless D1 support is dropped entirely. Old 
projects need bugfixes too.


 What do you think about all this?


See above.
Nov 11 2008
parent reply Ary Borenszweig <ary esperanto.org.ar> writes:
Frits van Bommel escribió:

 Ary Borenszweig wrote:

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will 
 take until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will 
 anyone still use it?


 
 I think I might keep using it for a while yet. D2 has some features I 
 dislike. On the other hand, some others are very tempting...
 

 I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to 
 Descent to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for 
 D1, except for some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a lot 
 of time. :-P


 
 Well, some places I'm still really missing semantic analysis in Descent:
 * Nested functions (their bodies don't seem to get analyzed)


Do you have an example? It seems to work for me. Maybe you are talking 
about templates? These are not analyzed.


 * Mixins (functions defined by (string) mixins don't get highlighting, 
 don't show up in code completion, etc.)


Again, it works for me, but this time not always (because the semantic 
analysis ported from DMD isn't finished/has bugs). But I tried this example:

module other;

char[] foo(char[] name) {
	return "char[] " ~ name ~ "() { return \"" ~ name ~ "\"; }";
}

mixin(foo("fix"));

---

module another;

import other;

const y = fix();

---

module main;

import other;
import another;

const someVar = y;

void foo() {
}

---

Now, if you request autocompletion inside "foo", "fix" should appear as 
a proposal. If you ctrl+shift+hover over "fix" you should see that "fix" 
appears. ctrl+shift+hover over foo("fix") should show you:

char[] fix() {
	return "fix";
}


 Or are those the "hard to fix"/"take a lot of time" cases? (Or fixed in 
 trunk but not up on the update site?)


Semantic analysis bugs are hard to fix (and, well, kinda boring), 
specially since Descent doesn't use DMD's code unmodified because I had 
to introduce some optimizations and lazy loading. Template semantic 
analysis is also hard, because I'd had to write it myself almost from 
scratch. DMD analyzes templates in instantiations only. Maybe I could 
analyze every template with a dummy instantation; the problem is I don't 
know which concrete arguments to use (they might lead to static ifs 
failing, etc.).
Nov 13 2008
parent reply Frits van Bommel <fvbommel REMwOVExCAPSs.nl> writes:
Ary Borenszweig wrote:

 Frits van Bommel escribió:

 Ary Borenszweig wrote:

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will 
 take until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will 
 anyone still use it?


 I think I might keep using it for a while yet. D2 has some features I 
 dislike. On the other hand, some others are very tempting...


 I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to 
 Descent to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for 
 D1, except for some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a lot 
 of time. :-P


 Well, some places I'm still really missing semantic analysis in Descent:
 * Nested functions (their bodies don't seem to get analyzed)


 
 Do you have an example? It seems to work for me. Maybe you are talking 
 about templates? These are not analyzed.


No, I'm talking about nested functions. However, trying to create a 
small example shows that they do indeed work. Unfortunately, that's 
definitely *not* the case in some of the files in a project I actually 
use Descent for :(.
I'll see if I can make some time later to reduce that project to a 
reasonable testcase.


 * Mixins (functions defined by (string) mixins don't get highlighting, 
 don't show up in code completion, etc.)


 
 Again, it works for me, but this time not always (because the semantic 
 analysis ported from DMD isn't finished/has bugs). But I tried this 
 example:
 


[snip]

Again, this works for the small testcase but not in that same project I 
mentioned above :(.
(Those mixins also use templates to generate the strings, but again in a 
small testcase those very same functions actually do seem to get 
recognized...)


 Or are those the "hard to fix"/"take a lot of time" cases? (Or fixed 
 in trunk but not up on the update site?)


 
 Semantic analysis bugs are hard to fix (and, well, kinda boring), 
 specially since Descent doesn't use DMD's code unmodified because I had 
 to introduce some optimizations and lazy loading. Template semantic 
 analysis is also hard, because I'd had to write it myself almost from 
 scratch. DMD analyzes templates in instantiations only. Maybe I could 
 analyze every template with a dummy instantation; the problem is I don't 
 know which concrete arguments to use (they might lead to static ifs 
 failing, etc.).


I can imagine the problems with semantic analysis of uninstantiated 
templates. But that's not where my problems were.
Nov 14 2008
parent Frits van Bommel <fvbommel REMwOVExCAPSs.nl> writes:
Frits van Bommel wrote:

 Ary Borenszweig wrote:

 Frits van Bommel escribió:

 Ary Borenszweig wrote:

 Now that D2 is being developed, I don't know how much time it will 
 take until it is finished. Once it is, what will happen to D1? Will 
 anyone still use it?


 I think I might keep using it for a while yet. D2 has some features I 
 dislike. On the other hand, some others are very tempting...


 I ask this because from time to time I like to add new features to 
 Descent to improve D1 support. Semantic analysis is pretty done for 
 D1, except for some bugs that are hard to fix, or at least take a 
 lot of time. :-P


 Well, some places I'm still really missing semantic analysis in Descent:
 * Nested functions (their bodies don't seem to get analyzed)


 Do you have an example? It seems to work for me. Maybe you are talking 
 about templates? These are not analyzed.


 
 No, I'm talking about nested functions. However, trying to create a 
 small example shows that they do indeed work. Unfortunately, that's 
 definitely *not* the case in some of the files in a project I actually 
 use Descent for :(.
 I'll see if I can make some time later to reduce that project to a 
 reasonable testcase.


http://dsource.org/projects/descent/ticket/136


 * Mixins (functions defined by (string) mixins don't get 
 highlighting, don't show up in code completion, etc.)


 Again, it works for me, but this time not always (because the semantic 
 analysis ported from DMD isn't finished/has bugs). But I tried this 
 example:


 [snip]
 
 Again, this works for the small testcase but not in that same project I 
 mentioned above :(.
 (Those mixins also use templates to generate the strings, but again in a 
 small testcase those very same functions actually do seem to get 
 recognized...)


This one may turn out to be related to the one above, since both use the 
same renamed import which seems to be one of the triggers for that bug.
Nov 14 2008
prev sibling parent reply Peter Venkman <ptr.venkman gmail.com> writes:
Bill Baxter Wrote:

 I plan to move to D2 at some point after DWT supports it.  Which means
 as soon as DWT and Tango support it.


For me -as a total newbie to D- library support is the key. I've just started
on a new project with D and thought D2 would be the way to go, but after seeing
the lack of support from Tango, DWT and other libraries decided I would be
better off with D1.

So, for me the question would be, when will D2 support come to existing
libraries -at least the most popular ones-?

I ask this with the innocence and lack of knowledge of the D community of a
newbie, so any explanation, idea or pointer will be appreciated.
Nov 12 2008
next sibling parent "Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
"Peter Venkman" <ptr.venkman gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:gfeti7$a9b$1 digitalmars.com...

 Bill Baxter Wrote:

 I plan to move to D2 at some point after DWT supports it.  Which means
 as soon as DWT and Tango support it.


 For me -as a total newbie to D- library support is the key. I've just 
 started on a new project with D and thought D2 would be the way to go, but 
 after seeing the lack of support from Tango, DWT and other libraries 
 decided I would be better off with D1.

 So, for me the question would be, when will D2 support come to existing 
 libraries -at least the most popular ones-?

 I ask this with the innocence and lack of knowledge of the D community of 
 a newbie, so any explanation, idea or pointer will be appreciated.


SDWF works under D2 (up to 2.019, anyway), but this support is still at a 
pre-alpha stage.

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail address is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies 
on the 'group where everybody may benefit.
Nov 12 2008
prev sibling parent reply Lutger <lutger.blijdestijn gmail.com> writes:
Peter Venkman wrote:


 So, for me the question would be, when will D2 support come to existing
 libraries -at least the most popular ones-?


A lot of libraries depend on tango, so I wouldn't expect too much support
before a D2 Tango is released.
Nov 13 2008
parent "Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:
"Lutger" <lutger.blijdestijn gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:gfi1t4$k2t$1 digitalmars.com...

 Peter Venkman wrote:


 So, for me the question would be, when will D2 support come to existing
 libraries -at least the most popular ones-?


 A lot of libraries depend on tango, so I wouldn't expect too much support
 before a D2 Tango is released.


If that's so, what have their creators neglected wrt
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?AllLibraries
- to list them there, or to indicate there that they rely on Tango?

Maybe it's time to revamp that page.  I'll post ideas for this in a separate 
thread.

I think more important factors are:
- There are still many libraries that use Phobos, possibly even a few that 
are RTL-independent, some of which may well be being developed to support D2 
now.
- D2 isn't stable yet; in particular, 2.020 is problematic.  So any library 
support for D2 risks being broken in a subsequent compiler release; this has 
probably both broken pre-existing D2 support and put developers off trying.

But we ought to have a list of D2-compatible libraries, whether as part of a 
revamp of AllLibraries or as a separate wiki page.

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail address is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies 
on the 'group where everybody may benefit.
Nov 13 2008