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digitalmars.D - Future(s) for D.

reply "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
I recently read this facebook post on their future implementation 
in their Folly library.

https://code.facebook.com/posts/1661982097368498

This made me slightly envious. Thoughts on a D implementation?
Jun 20 2015
next sibling parent reply "Dragos Carp" <dragoscarp gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 12:35:11 UTC, weaselcat wrote:

 I recently read this facebook post on their future 
 implementation in their Folly library.

 https://code.facebook.com/posts/1661982097368498

 This made me slightly envious. Thoughts on a D implementation?


Even if the callbacks are sequentially listed, the "callback 
hell" is still there.

A better solution is to use fibers. You can take a look at a 
fibers[1] and tasks[2] implementation in asynchronous library[3].

[1] - 
https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/futures.d
[2] - 
https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/tasks.d
[3] - http://code.dlang.org/packages/asynchronous
Jun 20 2015
parent reply "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 13:33:34 UTC, Dragos Carp wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 12:35:11 UTC, weaselcat wrote:

 I recently read this facebook post on their future 
 implementation in their Folly library.

 https://code.facebook.com/posts/1661982097368498

 This made me slightly envious. Thoughts on a D implementation?


 Even if the callbacks are sequentially listed, the "callback 
 hell" is still there.

 A better solution is to use fibers. You can take a look at a 
 fibers[1] and tasks[2] implementation in asynchronous 
 library[3].

 [1] - 
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/futures.d
 [2] - 
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/tasks.d
 [3] - http://code.dlang.org/packages/asynchronous


Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how D 
hasn't fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they 
expecting an e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?
Jun 20 2015
next sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 14:00:47 +0000, Etienne wrote:


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


D is just not ugly enough. the key to be popular (not only in webdev) is=20
to make tech dumb, ugly, bloated, slow, inconsistent. choose any three or=20
more.=
Jun 20 2015
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/20/2015 11:12 AM, ketmar wrote:

 On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 14:00:47 +0000, Etienne wrote:


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


 D is just not ugly enough. the key to be popular (not only in webdev) is
 to make tech dumb, ugly, bloated, slow, inconsistent. choose any three or
 more.


Dangit, I was just gonna post the same thing :)

More seriously though (and this may sound like cynicism, but in my 
observation it really is true), webdev (and often computing in general) 
is all about fashion and "buzz". Merit has very little to do with it.

Making it big in this arena isn't about being the best, or even 
necessarily being good. That's been proven time and time again. It's 
about winning a popularity contest. So that's what's needed. I don't 
think there's any sure-fire way to pull that off, it's something that 
differs in each case, and requires hitting just the right variables, 
often by pure chance.

But something that typically seems to help is a big killer app (ex, 
facebook has been a major reason why people continued to choose PHP even 
*after* PHP became known-bad and facebook moved to hiphop), or some 
other one-liner buzzworthy note (ex: "Go comes from Google").

Of course, catering to the lazy and the inexperienced also seems to help 
a lot on the web, too. I think that explains why so many of biggest 
languages there are the ones have ex., no static typing, implicit 
variable declarations, etc.

D by contrast is a known static-typed language, and C/C++/Java have 
ruined the "street cred" of static typing. Dynamic is the greasers, and 
static is the nerd with taped-glasses and pocket protector. Same goes 
for with whitespace-based syntax versus semicolons/braces. So right 
there, D already has an uphill battle trying to be "sexy". And "sexy" is 
exactly the one thing that wins over most of the people in the tech 
world these days. (Well, inertia counts for a lot of people, too. Hence 
the Java houses, C++, cobol, and such at some of the mega-corporations 
and companies in the more conservative industries.)
Jun 20 2015
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:23:59 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

yes. and another thing (which is tied to "popularity", though) is the=20
question: how many developers are here to hire for XYZ?

let's compare numbers for php, java, ruby, js -- and D. most companies=20
will not bet on language for which a pool of "hireable" developers is=20
small. and it's understandable: two developers quit, and the project is=20
dead, doomed to complete rewrite in another language. sheesh!=
Jun 20 2015
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/20/2015 12:34 PM, ketmar wrote:

 On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:23:59 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 let's compare numbers for php, java, ruby, js -- and D. most companies
 will not bet on language for which a pool of "hireable" developers is
 small. and it's understandable: two developers quit, and the project is
 dead, doomed to complete rewrite in another language. sheesh!


Well, not really. I mean, managers and HR all *believe* that to be so. 
But that's because pretty much all non-programmers, even ones in the 
software dev industry who really should know better, are stuck in this 
bizarre idea that programming skills are somehow non-transferable 
between languages. Which is obviously total bullcrap, but try explaining 
that to self-assured HR folk and other pointy-hairs.

Hell, my first introduction to JS, ASP (yea, it was a long time ago) and 
web-dev in general was on-the-job as a fresh hire, and I was up to speed 
in like a week or so, if even that.

The one thing relevant here that has *never* left my mind:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

Favorite part:
"The recruiters-who-use-grep, by the way, are ridiculed here, and for 
good reason. I have never met anyone who can do Scheme, Haskell, and C 
pointers who can't pick up Java in two days, and create better Java code 
than people with five years of experience in Java, but try explaining 
that to the average HR drone."

So true.
Jun 20 2015
next sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:10:26 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Well, not really. I mean, managers and HR all *believe* that to be so.
 But that's because pretty much all non-programmers, even ones in the
 software dev industry who really should know better, are stuck in this
 bizarre idea that programming skills are somehow non-transferable
 between languages. Which is obviously total bullcrap, but try explaining
 that to self-assured HR folk and other pointy-hairs.


i completely agree with you once again. ;-)



 Hell, my first introduction to JS, ASP (yea, it was a long time ago) and
 web-dev in general was on-the-job as a fresh hire, and I was up to speed
 in like a week or so, if even that.


the same was happened to me when i was hired to do JavaME developement.=20
that was the first time i have to do anything with Java, yet i managed to=20
reach higher speed and quality that some of employer's existing "Java=20
specialists". not 'cause i'm so brilliant, but 'cause i have a general=20
programming experience, and learning new syntax and consulting dox on=20
standard libraries aren't that hard.

oh, well, i repeated Joel almost literally here. ;-)=
Jun 20 2015
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/20/2015 01:24 PM, ketmar wrote:

 oh, well, i repeated Joel almost literally here. ;-)


That dude knows his stuff ;)
Jun 20 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Tobias=20M=C3=BCller?= <troplin bluewin.ch> writes:
Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> wrote:

 On 06/20/2015 12:34 PM, ketmar wrote:

 On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:23:59 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 
 let's compare numbers for php, java, ruby, js -- and D. most companies
 will not bet on language for which a pool of "hireable" developers is
 small. and it's understandable: two developers quit, and the project is
 dead, doomed to complete rewrite in another language. sheesh!
 


 
 Well, not really. I mean, managers and HR all *believe* that to be so.
 But that's because pretty much all non-programmers, even ones in the
 software dev industry who really should know better, are stuck in this
 bizarre idea that programming skills are somehow non-transferable between
 languages. Which is obviously total bullcrap, but try explaining that to
 self-assured HR folk and other pointy-hairs.
 
 Hell, my first introduction to JS, ASP (yea, it was a long time ago) and
 web-dev in general was on-the-job as a fresh hire, and I was up to speed
 in like a week or so, if even that.
 
 The one thing relevant here that has *never* left my mind:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html
 
 Favorite part:
 "The recruiters-who-use-grep, by the way, are ridiculed here, and for
 good reason. I have never met anyone who can do Scheme, Haskell, and C
 pointers who can't pick up Java in two days, and create better Java code
 than people with five years of experience in Java, but try explaining
 that to the average HR drone."
 
 So true.


But do you also think that the average java code monkey will pick up D
equally fast?
For many programmers, programming is just a job, not more. They don't
program in their spare time and are not really interested in programming
languages as you are.

Java is a very simple language. That means if you're a power user, you will
be limited by that, but as an average programmer this means you can
understand code written by others.

D on the other hand is a quite complex language. You can write nice and
concise code in D, but that doesn't mean that the language is simple.
Jun 21 2015
next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/21/2015 09:24 AM, Tobias Müller wrote:

 But do you also think that the average java code monkey will pick up D
 equally fast?


Well, I don't believe the average java code monkey is an asset to ANY 
company, merely a liability.
Jun 21 2015
prev sibling parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Sun, 21 Jun 2015 13:24:14 +0000, Tobias M=C3=BCller wrote:


 For many programmers, programming is just a job, not more. They don't
 program in their spare time and are not really interested in programming
 languages as you are.


that people called "code monkeys", not "programmers". it's simply=20
impossible to be a programmer without a passion to learn things. not=20
'cause "well, if i learn XYZ i will be promoted to better job and will=20
get more money", but 'cause "hey, that's *interesting*! i may never use=20
that in my job (this is usually wrong), but it's so interesting that i=20
can't pass it by!"

code monkeys are good when there is a need in writing boilerplate code,=20
but they are bad for solving problems. not necessarily 'cause they're=20
dumb, they simply not interested in problem solving.=
Jun 23 2015
next sibling parent reply "Laeeth Isharc" <laeethnospam nospamlaeeth.com> writes:
Chris wrote:
"This already started in the 1990ies and got worse and worse, 
this business of looking for the "perfect" candidate. A lot of 
skills can be acquired in the first weeks (or months, depending). 
It's better to train someone who's intelligent and innovative 
than someone who's worked with all IDEs and build systems, but is 
fairly un-innovative (problem => for loop)."

I agree with you, although I don't know how many others would.  
And not all people are equally gifted in picking things up - it's 
ability, but also character since when many people get to a 
certain level of accomplishment they get addicted to the feeling 
of comfort and would rather die than truly push themselves when 
they don't know how it will turn out.

On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 18:15:47 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 For many programmers, programming is just a job, not more. 
 They don't program in their spare time and are not really 
 interested in programming languages as you are.


 that people called "code monkeys", not "programmers". it's 
 simply impossible to be a programmer without a passion to learn 
 things. not 'cause "well, if i learn XYZ i will be promoted to 
 better job and will get more money", but 'cause "hey, that's 
 *interesting*! i may never use that in my job (this is usually 
 wrong), but it's so interesting that i can't pass it by!"

 code monkeys are good when there is a need in writing 
 boilerplate code, but they are bad for solving problems. not 
 necessarily 'cause they're dumb, they simply not interested in 
 problem solving.


Yes - the intriguing thing is that this trend has gone so far 
that good people and mediocre people are the same price if they 
look similar on paper (from what I have seen).  In fact you may 
be able to hire someone good for less than someone mediocre since 
they are less tolerant of a bad working environment and want to 
work on something that inspires them (whereas the average person 
lacks imagination to see what might come out of the 
ordinary-looking seeds of today) .  As an entrepreneur, this is 
one of the biggest arbitrages for many years, I think - provided 
you are able to tell good from mediocre (or to put it charitably, 
top notch from merely solid).

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-D-E-Shaw-pay-young-Harvard-and-MIT-graduates-over-200-000-per-year-right-out-of-college/answer/Laeeth-Isharc

This isn't technology specific, but it fits with what I have 
heard from talking to people who are in that very specific field. 
  I think that's what the Quora guys mean when they talk of 10x 
programmers, but it's not at all the description or way of 
thinking I would apply, since obviously it puts the emphasis on 
measuring what is not so easy to measure.

At my (now defunct - a different story) previous startup fund, we 
had 1200 applications for 2 junior jobs - that's a lot, even 
limiting it to the serious candidates.  And they all look great 
on paper, and one couldn't possibly even call them all.  (For 
this role, I was more concerned about missing someone amazing 
than making the wrong hire - not the normal corporate priorities).

So I wrote an Oxbridge style applied economics open-ended 
question.  Most of the perfect candidates on paper just 
regurgitated what they read in the FT; a few didn't and actually 
thought about it.  And the girl that got the job spent 45 hours 
writing her paper, which was more useful than the stuff you would 
get from a 40 year old seasoned guy.  No way would we have found 
her had we had an HR department (or rather had we let HR 'help' 
us).

For technology, it's different, but I think the same way of 
thinking may prove useful.  And if/when I need a tech guy to help 
me, it's a nobrainer to ask here because of the quality of the 
people.  Although that is not why I am here.
Jun 23 2015
parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 19:01:08 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

 Chris wrote:
 "This already started in the 1990ies and got worse and worse, 
 this business of looking for the "perfect" candidate. A lot of 
 skills can be acquired in the first weeks (or months, 
 depending). It's better to train someone who's intelligent and 
 innovative than someone who's worked with all IDEs and build 
 systems, but is fairly un-innovative (problem => for loop)."

 I agree with you, although I don't know how many others would.  
 And not all people are equally gifted in picking things up - 
 it's ability, but also character since when many people get to 
 a certain level of accomplishment they get addicted to the 
 feeling of comfort and would rather die than truly push 
 themselves when they don't know how it will turn out.

 On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 18:15:47 UTC, ketmar wrote:

 For many programmers, programming is just a job, not more. 
 They don't program in their spare time and are not really 
 interested in programming languages as you are.


 that people called "code monkeys", not "programmers". it's 
 simply impossible to be a programmer without a passion to 
 learn things. not 'cause "well, if i learn XYZ i will be 
 promoted to better job and will get more money", but 'cause 
 "hey, that's *interesting*! i may never use that in my job 
 (this is usually wrong), but it's so interesting that i can't 
 pass it by!"

 code monkeys are good when there is a need in writing 
 boilerplate code, but they are bad for solving problems. not 
 necessarily 'cause they're dumb, they simply not interested in 
 problem solving.


 Yes - the intriguing thing is that this trend has gone so far 
 that good people and mediocre people are the same price if they 
 look similar on paper (from what I have seen).  In fact you may 
 be able to hire someone good for less than someone mediocre 
 since they are less tolerant of a bad working environment and 
 want to work on something that inspires them (whereas the 
 average person lacks imagination to see what might come out of 
 the ordinary-looking seeds of today) .  As an entrepreneur, 
 this is one of the biggest arbitrages for many years, I think - 
 provided you are able to tell good from mediocre (or to put it 
 charitably, top notch from merely solid).

 https://www.quora.com/Why-does-D-E-Shaw-pay-young-Harvard-and-MIT-graduates-over-200-000-per-year-right-out-of-college/answer/Laeeth-Isharc

 This isn't technology specific, but it fits with what I have 
 heard from talking to people who are in that very specific 
 field.
  I think that's what the Quora guys mean when they talk of 10x 
 programmers, but it's not at all the description or way of 
 thinking I would apply, since obviously it puts the emphasis on 
 measuring what is not so easy to measure.

 At my (now defunct - a different story) previous startup fund, 
 we had 1200 applications for 2 junior jobs - that's a lot, even 
 limiting it to the serious candidates.  And they all look great 
 on paper, and one couldn't possibly even call them all.  (For 
 this role, I was more concerned about missing someone amazing 
 than making the wrong hire - not the normal corporate 
 priorities).

 So I wrote an Oxbridge style applied economics open-ended 
 question.  Most of the perfect candidates on paper just 
 regurgitated what they read in the FT; a few didn't and 
 actually thought about it.  And the girl that got the job spent 
 45 hours writing her paper, which was more useful than the 
 stuff you would get from a 40 year old seasoned guy.  No way 
 would we have found her had we had an HR department (or rather 
 had we let HR 'help' us).

 For technology, it's different, but I think the same way of 
 thinking may prove useful.  And if/when I need a tech guy to 
 help me, it's a nobrainer to ask here because of the quality of 
 the people.  Although that is not why I am here.


Good on you for doing that. I know from my own experience that 
people who are intelligent and inspired (i.e. willing to think 
and move things forward) can get up to speed very fast and make 
later valuable contributions to a team/project. I've found that 
this usually happens in small businesses or within small projects 
where resources are very limited and there is no HR involved.

That said, there is of course the element of established and 
complacent people trying to keep out the intelligent and inspired 
crowd, because they think they are a threat to them, you know, 
those who make a career out of brown-nosing.
Jun 24 2015
next sibling parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
Speaking of which, just found this in a job add (no joke). Sure, 
who doesn't have all of these qualifications:

Required

     Doctorate Degree
     At least 5 years experience in the areas of information 
extraction and machine learning
     At least 1 year experience in publication in top-tier 
research conferences and journals
     At least 3 years experience in programming in Java and C++
     At least 1 year experience in open source NLP tools (i.e., 
Stanford NLP, OpenNLP)
     English: Fluent


Preferred

     At least 1 year experience in one of the following domains: 
question answering, textual entailment, machine reading
     At least 1 year experience in software engineering
     At least 6 months experience in experience with speech 
processing
Jun 24 2015
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?TWFydGluIERyYcWhYXI=?= via Digitalmars-d writes:
Dne 24.6.2015 v 11:07 Chris via Digitalmars-d napsal(a):

 Speaking of which, just found this in a job add (no joke). Sure, who
 doesn't have all of these qualifications:
=20
 Required
=20
     Doctorate Degree
     At least 5 years experience in the areas of information extraction
 and machine learning
     At least 1 year experience in publication in top-tier research
 conferences and journals
     At least 3 years experience in programming in Java and C++
     At least 1 year experience in open source NLP tools (i.e., Stanford=



 NLP, OpenNLP)
     English: Fluent
=20
=20
 Preferred
=20
     At least 1 year experience in one of the following domains: questio=


n

 answering, textual entailment, machine reading
     At least 1 year experience in software engineering
     At least 6 months experience in experience with speech processing


There are definitely people like this. If you focused your Ph.D. on
machine learning, than you likely qualify for most of the requirements.

Then again, there can just be an obligation to post this job add as a
requirement for getting grant money for a project (many EU projects have
this), but you have your own person in mind for the job, so you fit the
add for her.

Martin
Jun 24 2015
next sibling parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 at 09:21:46 UTC, Martin Drašar wrote:


 There are definitely people like this. If you focused your 
 Ph.D. on machine learning, than you likely qualify for most of 
 the requirements.

 Then again, there can just be an obligation to post this job 
 add as a requirement for getting grant money for a project 
 (many EU projects have this), but you have your own person in 
 mind for the job, so you fit the add for her.

 Martin


Sure, this smells like a job description tailor made for someone 
they already have in mind. However, I wonder what "experience" 
means. "Yeah, I've played around with Java and C++" or "I'm 
really into the two languages and know them very well". People 
who do research for their PhD in computational linguistics are 
often _familiar_ with programming languages but not necessarily 
to a degree that allows them to write real world production code, 
because it is very hard to excel in programming, data algorithms, 
NLP and academic research (literature review, writing the PhD) at 
the same time.
Jun 24 2015
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?TWFydGluIERyYcWhYXI=?= via Digitalmars-d writes:
Dne 24.6.2015 v 14:15 Chris via Digitalmars-d napsal(a):

 Sure, this smells like a job description tailor made for someone they
 already have in mind. However, I wonder what "experience" means. "Yeah,=



 I've played around with Java and C++" or "I'm really into the two
 languages and know them very well". People who do research for their Ph=


D

 in computational linguistics are often _familiar_ with programming
 languages but not necessarily to a degree that allows them to write rea=


l

 world production code, because it is very hard to excel in programming,=



 data algorithms, NLP and academic research (literature review, writing
 the PhD) at the same time.


If you let researchers write production code, you are asking for
troubles. And that comes from someone who is doing research, is a
programming enthusiast and had programming as a day job for some time.

If I made such job add, the most important for me would be the ML
experience and publication skills. This is something you can't teach in
a short time. As for the rest of it - it would be good enough that the
candidates would not hurt themselves while using those tools and
languages. At least there will be less unlearning to do...

Martin
Jun 24 2015
parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 at 13:04:29 UTC, Martin Drašar wrote:

 Dne 24.6.2015 v 14:15 Chris via Digitalmars-d napsal(a):

 Sure, this smells like a job description tailor made for 
 someone they already have in mind. However, I wonder what 
 "experience" means. "Yeah, I've played around with Java and 
 C++" or "I'm really into the two languages and know them very 
 well". People who do research for their PhD in computational 
 linguistics are often _familiar_ with programming languages 
 but not necessarily to a degree that allows them to write real 
 world production code, because it is very hard to excel in 
 programming, data algorithms, NLP and academic research 
 (literature review, writing the PhD) at the same time.


 If you let researchers write production code, you are asking 
 for troubles. And that comes from someone who is doing 
 research, is a programming enthusiast and had programming as a 
 day job for some time.


That's what I mean. You either program or you do research. If you 
do research, all programs are proofs-of-concept (with papers and 
journals in mind).


 If I made such job add, the most important for me would be the 
 ML experience and publication skills. This is something you 
 can't teach in a short time. As for the rest of it - it would 
 be good enough that the candidates would not hurt themselves 
 while using those tools and languages. At least there will be 
 less unlearning to do...

 Martin
Jun 24 2015
prev sibling parent "Adrian Matoga" <epi atari8.info> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 at 09:21:46 UTC, Martin Drašar wrote:

 Then again, there can just be an obligation to post this job 
 add as a requirement for getting grant money for a project 
 (many EU projects have this), but you have your own person in 
 mind for the job, so you fit the add for her.


Confirmed, I've seen quite a few such ads for research positions 
in computer architecture written specifically for me or my 
colleagues.
Jun 25 2015
prev sibling parent "Laeeth Isharc" <nospamlaeeth nospam.laeeth.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 at 09:01:47 UTC, Chris wrote:

 On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 19:01:08 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:



 So I wrote an Oxbridge style applied economics open-ended 
 question.  Most of the perfect candidates on paper just 
 regurgitated what they read in the FT; a few didn't and 
 actually thought about it.  And the girl that got the job 
 spent 45 hours writing her paper, which was more useful than 
 the stuff you would get from a 40 year old seasoned guy.  No 
 way would we have found her had we had an HR department (or 
 rather had we let HR 'help' us).

 For technology, it's different, but I think the same way of 
 thinking may prove useful.  And if/when I need a tech guy to 
 help me, it's a nobrainer to ask here because of the quality 
 of the people.  Although that is not why I am here.


 Good on you for doing that. I know from my own experience that 
 people who are intelligent and inspired (i.e. willing to think 
 and move things forward) can get up to speed very fast and make 
 later valuable contributions to a team/project. I've found that 
 this usually happens in small businesses or within small 
 projects where resources are very limited and there is no HR 
 involved.


*****

 That said, there is of course the element of established and 
 complacent people trying to keep out the intelligent and 
 inspired crowd, because they think they are a threat to them, 
 you know, those who make a career out of brown-nosing.


That's the beauty of making do with fewer resources than at a 
large firm - no politics, but on the other hand you really have 
to make the most of them.  And the experience of even 
medium-sized firms that have that culture who try to start 
something new - both when it works and when it does not - seems 
to suggest you often need to adopt a skunk works type approach 
rather than try to integrate cultures.
Jun 24 2015
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/23/2015 02:15 PM, ketmar wrote:

 On Sun, 21 Jun 2015 13:24:14 +0000, Tobias Müller wrote:


 For many programmers, programming is just a job, not more. They don't
 program in their spare time and are not really interested in programming
 languages as you are.


 that people called "code monkeys", not "programmers". it's simply
 impossible to be a programmer without a passion to learn things. not
 'cause "well, if i learn XYZ i will be promoted to better job and will
 get more money", but 'cause "hey, that's *interesting*! i may never use
 that in my job (this is usually wrong), but it's so interesting that i
 can't pass it by!"


Even that intrinsic passion in the field itself isn't strictly necessary 
to be a good programmer. I know that sounds wrong, but hear me out: All 
that's REALLY needed at the bare minimum is the basic integrity to say 
"If this is what I'm going to be working on, even if I'm only in it for 
the money, then goddammit I'm going to do the best job I can. Because 
this is the job I'm being paid to do." But a lot of the "code monkeys" 
can't even muster up that much.
Jun 23 2015
parent reply ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:04:49 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Even that intrinsic passion in the field itself isn't strictly necessary
 to be a good programmer. I know that sounds wrong, but hear me out: All
 that's REALLY needed at the bare minimum is the basic integrity to say
 "If this is what I'm going to be working on, even if I'm only in it for
 the money, then goddammit I'm going to do the best job I can. Because
 this is the job I'm being paid to do." But a lot of the "code monkeys"
 can't even muster up that much.


i must confess that i too cannot into such way thinking. that's why i=20
never took a job i'm not really interested in: it's simply unfair to take=20
employer's money if i'm not interested in result, an employer surely can=20
hire someone better.=
Jun 23 2015
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/23/2015 03:19 PM, ketmar wrote:

 On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:04:49 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Even that intrinsic passion in the field itself isn't strictly necessary
 to be a good programmer. I know that sounds wrong, but hear me out: All
 that's REALLY needed at the bare minimum is the basic integrity to say
 "If this is what I'm going to be working on, even if I'm only in it for
 the money, then goddammit I'm going to do the best job I can. Because
 this is the job I'm being paid to do." But a lot of the "code monkeys"
 can't even muster up that much.


 i must confess that i too cannot into such way thinking. that's why i
 never took a job i'm not really interested in: it's simply unfair to take
 employer's money if i'm not interested in result, an employer surely can
 hire someone better.


Of course, that's also a form of respectable personal integrity, too. 
(one that a lot of people don't share - well, not that everyone always 
has the luxury of doing so, but still, it's a good attitude to have).

And yea, naturally, personal interest does make it a lot easier to coax 
oneself to do a good job.
Jun 23 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 17:10:27 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 06/20/2015 12:34 PM, ketmar wrote:

 On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:23:59 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 let's compare numbers for php, java, ruby, js -- and D. most 
 companies
 will not bet on language for which a pool of "hireable" 
 developers is
 small. and it's understandable: two developers quit, and the 
 project is
 dead, doomed to complete rewrite in another language. sheesh!


 Well, not really. I mean, managers and HR all *believe* that to 
 be so. But that's because pretty much all non-programmers, even 
 ones in the software dev industry who really should know 
 better, are stuck in this bizarre idea that programming skills 
 are somehow non-transferable between languages. Which is 
 obviously total bullcrap, but try explaining that to 
 self-assured HR folk and other pointy-hairs.

 Hell, my first introduction to JS, ASP (yea, it was a long time 
 ago) and web-dev in general was on-the-job as a fresh hire, and 
 I was up to speed in like a week or so, if even that.

 The one thing relevant here that has *never* left my mind:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

 Favorite part:
 "The recruiters-who-use-grep, by the way, are ridiculed here, 
 and for good reason. I have never met anyone who can do Scheme, 
 Haskell, and C pointers who can't pick up Java in two days, and 
 create better Java code than people with five years of 
 experience in Java, but try explaining that to the average HR 
 drone."

 So true.


Yeah. A guy I know had a hard time finding a job with Java. HR 
would always demand experience with this or that build tool and 
stuff like this. As if you couldn't learn this in a week or less, 
at least enough to be able to contribute to a project. Actual 
programming skills never seemed to be really important. Weird.
Jun 23 2015
next sibling parent reply "Laeeth Isharc" <Laeeth.nospam nospam-laeeth.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 08:49:45 UTC, Chris wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 17:10:27 UTC, Nick Sabalausky 
 wrote:

 On 06/20/2015 12:34 PM, ketmar wrote:

 On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:23:59 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 let's compare numbers for php, java, ruby, js -- and D. most 
 companies
 will not bet on language for which a pool of "hireable" 
 developers is
 small. and it's understandable: two developers quit, and the 
 project is
 dead, doomed to complete rewrite in another language. sheesh!


 Well, not really. I mean, managers and HR all *believe* that 
 to be so. But that's because pretty much all non-programmers, 
 even ones in the software dev industry who really should know 
 better, are stuck in this bizarre idea that programming skills 
 are somehow non-transferable between languages. Which is 
 obviously total bullcrap, but try explaining that to 
 self-assured HR folk and other pointy-hairs.

 Hell, my first introduction to JS, ASP (yea, it was a long 
 time ago) and web-dev in general was on-the-job as a fresh 
 hire, and I was up to speed in like a week or so, if even that.

 The one thing relevant here that has *never* left my mind:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

 Favorite part:
 "The recruiters-who-use-grep, by the way, are ridiculed here, 
 and for good reason. I have never met anyone who can do 
 Scheme, Haskell, and C pointers who can't pick up Java in two 
 days, and create better Java code than people with five years 
 of experience in Java, but try explaining that to the average 
 HR drone."

 So true.


 Yeah. A guy I know had a hard time finding a job with Java. HR 
 would always demand experience with this or that build tool and 
 stuff like this. As if you couldn't learn this in a week or 
 less, at least enough to be able to contribute to a project. 
 Actual programming skills never seemed to be really important. 
 Weird.


And as a consequence,  we see:
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/06/the-time-needed-to-fill-jobs.html

The present state of hiring processes can't go on, and so it 
won't.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Good-People-Cant-Jobs-ebook/dp/B00850ZOKI
Jun 23 2015
parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 at 08:58:39 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

 And as a consequence,  we see:
 http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/06/the-time-needed-to-fill-jobs.html

 The present state of hiring processes can't go on, and so it 
 won't.

 http://www.amazon.com/Why-Good-People-Cant-Jobs-ebook/dp/B00850ZOKI


This already started in the 1990ies and got worse and worse, this 
business of looking for the "perfect" candidate. A lot of skills 
can be acquired in the first weeks (or months, depending). It's 
better to train someone who's intelligent and innovative than 
someone who's worked with all IDEs and build systems, but is 
fairly un-innovative (problem => for loop).
Jun 23 2015
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 06/23/2015 04:49 AM, Chris wrote:

 Yeah. A guy I know had a hard time finding a job with Java. HR would
 always demand experience with this or that build tool and stuff like
 this. As if you couldn't learn this in a week or less, at least enough
 to be able to contribute to a project. Actual programming skills never
 seemed to be really important. Weird.


A big part of the problem is that HR folk know precisely jack shit about 
the fields they're hiring for, and they're never expected to.

My favorite word-for-word quote from a real-life headhunter I once met 
(and never spoke to again):

"I don't know anything about programming, but I'm good at identifying 
people who are."

That, right there, sums up EVERYTHING.
Jun 23 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Ellery Newcomer <ellery-newcomer utulsa.edu> writes:
On 06/20/2015 07:00 AM, Etienne wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 13:33:34 UTC, Dragos Carp wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 12:35:11 UTC, weaselcat wrote:

 I recently read this facebook post on their future implementation in
 their Folly library.

 https://code.facebook.com/posts/1661982097368498

 This made me slightly envious. Thoughts on a D implementation?


 Even if the callbacks are sequentially listed, the "callback hell" is
 still there.

 A better solution is to use fibers. You can take a look at a fibers[1]
 and tasks[2] implementation in asynchronous library[3].

 [1] -
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/futures.d

 [2] -
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/tasks.d

 [3] - http://code.dlang.org/packages/asynchronous


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


A while back I was bored and curious to see how vibe would fare in the 
web framework benchmarks (http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/) so I 
started adding vibe to it 
(https://github.com/ariovistus/FrameworkBenchmarks).

Chose to go with ddb. Postgresql+asynchronous, sounds great. It didn't 
compile with the latest dmd at the time. So I fixed it up, made a PR, 
and it worked fine.

It looked like I was getting results close to netty (in json 
serialization) without much effort, but ultimately, I set it aside to 
wait for my PR to be merged.

what is the deal with ddb, anyways? Is it dead?
Jun 20 2015
next sibling parent "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 22:42:23 UTC, Ellery Newcomer wrote:

 On 06/20/2015 07:00 AM, Etienne wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 13:33:34 UTC, Dragos Carp wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 12:35:11 UTC, weaselcat wrote:

 [...]


 Even if the callbacks are sequentially listed, the "callback 
 hell" is
 still there.

 A better solution is to use fibers. You can take a look at a 
 fibers[1]
 and tasks[2] implementation in asynchronous library[3].

 [1] -
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/futures.d

 [2] -
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/tasks.d

 [3] - http://code.dlang.org/packages/asynchronous


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how 
 D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


 A while back I was bored and curious to see how vibe would fare 
 in the web framework benchmarks 
 (http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/) so I started adding 
 vibe to it (https://github.com/ariovistus/FrameworkBenchmarks).

 Chose to go with ddb. Postgresql+asynchronous, sounds great. It 
 didn't compile with the latest dmd at the time. So I fixed it 
 up, made a PR, and it worked fine.

 It looked like I was getting results close to netty (in json 
 serialization) without much effort, but ultimately, I set it 
 aside to wait for my PR to be merged.

 what is the deal with ddb, anyways? Is it dead?


Hm, ddb doesn't have an asynchronius driver so you're probably 
going through std.socket which is thread blocking. I think the 
author isn't very active, but you shouldn't make it a habit to 
wait for a merge before continuing, or else you'll never be 
productive. Worst case your fork will be more up to date and you 
can become the maintainer I guess
Jun 20 2015
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?B?U8O2bmtlIEx1ZHdpZw==?= <sludwig rejectedsoftware.com> writes:
Am 21.06.2015 um 00:42 schrieb Ellery Newcomer:

 On 06/20/2015 07:00 AM, Etienne wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 13:33:34 UTC, Dragos Carp wrote:

 On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 12:35:11 UTC, weaselcat wrote:

 I recently read this facebook post on their future implementation in
 their Folly library.

 https://code.facebook.com/posts/1661982097368498

 This made me slightly envious. Thoughts on a D implementation?


 Even if the callbacks are sequentially listed, the "callback hell" is
 still there.

 A better solution is to use fibers. You can take a look at a fibers[1]
 and tasks[2] implementation in asynchronous library[3].

 [1] -
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/futures.d


 [2] -
 https://github.com/dcarp/asynchronous/blob/master/src/asynchronous/tasks.d


 [3] - http://code.dlang.org/packages/asynchronous


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


 A while back I was bored and curious to see how vibe would fare in the
 web framework benchmarks (http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/) so I
 started adding vibe to it
 (https://github.com/ariovistus/FrameworkBenchmarks).


I had also started with this some time ago, but didn't get far enough to 
dig through what's necessary to adjust the various setup and benchmark 
scripts:

https://github.com/s-ludwig/FrameworkBenchmarks

Would be great to get in there. BTW, I was using mysql-native to 
implement the database tests, but didn't ever actually run the benchmarks.


 Chose to go with ddb. Postgresql+asynchronous, sounds great. It didn't
 compile with the latest dmd at the time. So I fixed it up, made a PR,
 and it worked fine.

 It looked like I was getting results close to netty (in json
 serialization) without much effort, but ultimately, I set it aside to
 wait for my PR to be merged.

 what is the deal with ddb, anyways? Is it dead?
Jun 22 2015
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 20/06/15 16:00, Etienne wrote:


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


My biggest reason is the lack of libraries.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 21 2015
next sibling parent reply "Etienne Cimon" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 19:08:47 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 20/06/15 16:00, Etienne wrote:


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how 
 D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


 My biggest reason is the lack of libraries.


There's probably a lack of a Joomla/Wordpress/Magento platform in 
D with plugin support. Libraries would pour into D if there was a 
similar tool.
Jun 21 2015
next sibling parent reply "rsw0x" <anonymous anonymous.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 22:02:39 UTC, Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 19:08:47 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 20/06/15 16:00, Etienne wrote:


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand 
 how D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting 
 an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


 My biggest reason is the lack of libraries.


 There's probably a lack of a Joomla/Wordpress/Magento platform 
 in D with plugin support. Libraries would pour into D if there 
 was a similar tool.


No, there really are no libraries for D. And it's 1000x worse if 
you attempt to use D for anything related to system's programming 
aka no GC available.

I got so fed up that I ported my project from D to C. I'll gladly 
trade a worse language for not having to write an entire standard 
library by myself.
Jun 21 2015
next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 23:08:09 UTC, rsw0x wrote:

 I got so fed up that I ported my project from D to C. I'll 
 gladly trade a worse language for not having to write an entire 
 standard library by myself.


I'm exactly the opposite. I've wasted so much time putting up 
with awful languages I'm glad to reinvent a few wheels if that's 
what it takes to get some basic technological progress. (Too many 
people NOT doing that is exactly why things never improve. 
Somebody's gotta just bite the bullet.)
Jun 21 2015
prev sibling parent ketmar <ketmar ketmar.no-ip.org> writes:
On Sun, 21 Jun 2015 23:08:07 +0000, rsw0x wrote:


 No, there really are no libraries for D. And it's 1000x worse if you
 attempt to use D for anything related to system's programming aka no GC
 available.
=20
 I got so fed up that I ported my project from D to C. I'll gladly trade
 a worse language for not having to write an entire standard library by
 myself.


but you don't have to drop D to use C libraries! some of my code is full=20
of calls to libc and other C libs, neatly wrapped in D structs. i don't=20
really want to remember when to write "->" anymore, or "oh, i forgot a=20
typedef here, so it will be `struct my_s`", or use C macros instead of D=20
templates.

after decades of C experience i dropped it without any doubts, and i=20
surely don't want to get back. you see, i have alot of libraries written=20
for C during this years, and i dropped all that, 'cause D is so "better=20
C", that there are no reasons to use C anymore. and i always can wrap C=20
library if i need that, most of the work on wrapping can be done with=20
sed. ;-)

so i really can't see any reason to go back to C instead of using D with=20
C libraries.=
Jun 23 2015
prev sibling parent Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 22/06/2015 10:02 a.m., Etienne Cimon wrote:

 On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 19:08:47 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 20/06/15 16:00, Etienne wrote:


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


 My biggest reason is the lack of libraries.


 There's probably a lack of a Joomla/Wordpress/Magento platform in D with
 plugin support. Libraries would pour into D if there was a similar tool.


I really do want to fix this. Unfortunately writing everything from a an 
actual webserver to the template live reloading is a lot harder then 
you'd think. Which is unfortunate.
Jun 21 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 19:08:47 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 20/06/15 16:00, Etienne wrote:


 Yep, looks like we already have better. I don't understand how 
 D hasn't
 fully picked up in Web Dev at this point. Are they expecting an
 e-commerce/blogging/cms platform to go with it?


 My biggest reason is the lack of libraries.


Curiosity, what libraries do you feel a lack of?
Jun 21 2015
next sibling parent "Nikolay" <sibnick gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 21 June 2015 at 23:43:16 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 Curiosity, what libraries do you feel a lack of?


XML/Webservice - I know about JSON/REST, but often I have no 
choice

Poor database support - a lot of libraries/drivers, but they 
can't win competition against Java JDBC.
Jun 21 2015
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 22/06/15 01:43, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Curiosity, what libraries do you feel a lack of?


For work, that would be:

* Database drivers for Postgres and SQLite
* ORM
* Unit test framework. I want something like RSpec
* RabbitMQ and ActiveMQ
* Some way to interface with Selenium and PhantomJS

For non work related things it would also be:

* Sass
* CoffeeScript
* I would prefer HAML over that templates used in vibe.d but I guess 
there' close enough

I haven't looked in a while for these things on code.dlang.org. I know 
some of them exist but I don't know the quality of them. In the Ruby 
world there's a lot of developers behind most of these libraries, 
there's no chance that these libraries would suddenly disappear overnight.

These are the libraries I can think of right now, that are generally 
needed for most projects. Then there are of course special requirements 
for some projects. But in Ruby you can be pretty certain that most 
things are already available as a library.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 22 2015
next sibling parent reply "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 11:29:50 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 22/06/15 01:43, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Curiosity, what libraries do you feel a lack of?


 For work, that would be:

 * Database drivers for Postgres and SQLite


https://github.com/etcimon/d2sqlite3
async with vibe.d : 
https://github.com/pszturmaj/ddb/blob/master/examples/basic.d#L7

 * ORM


https://github.com/buggins/hibernated

 * Unit test framework. I want something like RSpec


I always got around fine with unittest { } and some imagination

 * RabbitMQ and ActiveMQ


C=>D binding and register sockets in libasync?

 * Some way to interface with Selenium and PhantomJS


You need to write the javascript to a file and use executeShell 
or pipeShell.
I wanted to write a forward proxy in vibe.d though so that we can 
actually handle the headers/cookies and analyze the contents over 
the wire. I'm not sure if there's a language that does that 
already


 For non work related things it would also be:

 * Sass


https://github.com/Lodin/sassed

 * CoffeeScript


https://github.com/MartinNowak/diet-coffee/blob/master/source/diet_coffee.d#L23

 * I would prefer HAML over that templates used in vibe.d but I 
 guess there' close enough


http://blog.seancarpenter.net/2013/05/24/using-haml-from-the-command-line/

You seem to be active member of the community. Why not attempt to 
solve those? Doesn't seem like it would take that long (all the 
primitives are there).

 rikki > I really do want to fix this. Unfortunately writing 
everything from a an actual webserver to the template live 
reloading is a lot harder then you'd think. Which is unfortunate.

You should have everything you need to write a D version of 
Wordpress using its code as a reference. Maybe with vibe.d, 
putting the data in Redis and using some lua scripting for themes 
or configuration files. It would take some imagination but it's 
not at all impossible to achieve it.
Jun 22 2015
next sibling parent Rikki Cattermole <alphaglosined gmail.com> writes:
On 23/06/2015 12:46 a.m., Etienne wrote:

 On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 11:29:50 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 22/06/15 01:43, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Curiosity, what libraries do you feel a lack of?


 For work, that would be:

 * Database drivers for Postgres and SQLite


 https://github.com/etcimon/d2sqlite3
 async with vibe.d :
 https://github.com/pszturmaj/ddb/blob/master/examples/basic.d#L7

 * ORM


 https://github.com/buggins/hibernated

 * Unit test framework. I want something like RSpec


 I always got around fine with unittest { } and some imagination

 * RabbitMQ and ActiveMQ


 C=>D binding and register sockets in libasync?

 * Some way to interface with Selenium and PhantomJS


 You need to write the javascript to a file and use executeShell or
 pipeShell.
 I wanted to write a forward proxy in vibe.d though so that we can
 actually handle the headers/cookies and analyze the contents over the
 wire. I'm not sure if there's a language that does that already


 For non work related things it would also be:

 * Sass


 https://github.com/Lodin/sassed

 * CoffeeScript


 https://github.com/MartinNowak/diet-coffee/blob/master/source/diet_coffee.d#L23


 * I would prefer HAML over that templates used in vibe.d but I guess
 there' close enough


 http://blog.seancarpenter.net/2013/05/24/using-haml-from-the-command-line/

 You seem to be active member of the community. Why not attempt to solve
 those? Doesn't seem like it would take that long (all the primitives are
 there).

  rikki > I really do want to fix this. Unfortunately writing everything
 from a an actual webserver to the template live reloading is a lot
 harder then you'd think. Which is unfortunate.

 You should have everything you need to write a D version of Wordpress
 using its code as a reference. Maybe with vibe.d, putting the data in
 Redis and using some lua scripting for themes or configuration files. It
 would take some imagination but it's not at all impossible to achieve it.


What can I say? I like doing things 100% or not at all. Design wise atleast.

Oh one more thing, my next web service framework will be using lua for 
templates. The only thing not implemented is passing in data models. Its 
just even with luad binding D models to it is quite hard. Doable within 
a few days if the ORM is ready to go but when you add everything up. Ugh.
Jun 22 2015
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 22/06/15 14:46, Etienne wrote:

 On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 11:29:50 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:



 * Database drivers for Postgres and SQLite


 https://github.com/etcimon/d2sqlite3
 async with vibe.d :
 https://github.com/pszturmaj/ddb/blob/master/examples/basic.d#L7

 * ORM


 https://github.com/buggins/hibernated

 * Unit test framework. I want something like RSpec


 I always got around fine with unittest { } and some imagination

 * RabbitMQ and ActiveMQ


 C=>D binding and register sockets in libasync?


Seems I need to actually make a try on using these libraries.


 For non work related things it would also be:

 * Sass


 https://github.com/Lodin/sassed

 * CoffeeScript


 https://github.com/MartinNowak/diet-coffee/blob/master/source/diet_coffee.d#L23


 * I would prefer HAML over that templates used in vibe.d but I guess
 there' close enough


 http://blog.seancarpenter.net/2013/05/24/using-haml-from-the-command-line/

 You seem to be active member of the community. Why not attempt to solve
 those? Doesn't seem like it would take that long (all the primitives are
 there).


In general I feel it hard to justify when everything is already 
implemented in Ruby. At some point I just want to use a language and the 
libraries without needing to reinvent the wheel. Back in 2006 when I 
started with D I had some idea for an application I wanted to build. But 
there were a lot of missing components (many still are), I still haven't 
started building that application.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jun 22 2015
parent "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 19:45:57 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 22/06/15 14:46, Etienne wrote:

 [...]



 [...]


 Seems I need to actually make a try on using these libraries.


 [...]


 In general I feel it hard to justify when everything is already 
 implemented in Ruby. At some point I just want to use a 
 language and the libraries without needing to reinvent the 
 wheel. Back in 2006 when I started with D I had some idea for 
 an application I wanted to build. But there were a lot of 
 missing components (many still are), I still haven't started 
 building that application.


I can't really know how it would've been like back then. Today it 
looks like there might be a future in web dev for D, I'd think 
people are willing to invest their name on a library to be part 
of it.
Jun 22 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Laeeth Isharc" <Laeeth.nospam nospam-laeeth.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 11:29:50 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 22/06/15 01:43, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Curiosity, what libraries do you feel a lack of?


 For work, that would be:



 * Some way to interface with Selenium and PhantomJS


It's not pretty, but for what I want to do I have found embedding 
Python calls to phantomjs code within a D program works quite 
well.

The SQLite stuff looks okay, although I haven't used for a big 
project yet.
Jun 22 2015
parent "Etienne" <etcimon gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 14:03:47 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote:

 On Monday, 22 June 2015 at 11:29:50 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 22/06/15 01:43, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Curiosity, what libraries do you feel a lack of?


 For work, that would be:



 * Some way to interface with Selenium and PhantomJS


 It's not pretty, but for what I want to do I have found 
 embedding Python calls to phantomjs code within a D program 
 works quite well.

 The SQLite stuff looks okay, although I haven't used for a big 
 project yet.


This is how I use it as a persistent storage for property 
get/setters. Takes some imagination at first, but it saves a huge 
amount of time/headaches on the long run.

/// Opens the SQLite database from the data folder. The user must 
call .close() when finished!
Database openDB(bool read = true) {
	// DB is always created in static ctor
	return Database(DATA_FOLDER_PATH() ~ "my.db", read ? 
SQLITE_OPEN_READONLY : (SQLITE_OPEN_READWRITE | 
SQLITE_OPEN_CREATE));
}


	private T get(T)(string name, lazy T default_value = T.init) {
		Database sqlite = openDB(READ);
		scope(exit) sqlite.close();
		T ret;
		try {
			auto results = sqlite.execute("SELECT value FROM config WHERE 
name='" ~ name ~ "';");
			auto val = results.oneValue!string;
			ret = val.to!T;
		}
		catch { ret = default_value; }
		return ret;
	}

	private void set(T)(string name, T value) {
		Database sqlite = openDB(WRITE);
		scope(exit) sqlite.close();
		bool exists;
		try {
			ResultRange res = sqlite.prepare("SELECT value FROM config 
WHERE name=?;").bind(1, name).execute();
			string val = res.oneValue!string; // will throw if the value 
is not there
			// Update the existing value.
			auto prep = sqlite.prepare("UPDATE TABLE config SET value=? 
WHERE name=?;").bind(1, name).execute();
			prep.bind(1, value.to!string);
			res = prep.execute();
		}
		catch {
			exists = false;
		}
		
		if (!exists) {
			auto res = sqlite.prepare("INSERT INTO config (name, value) 
VALUES (?, ?);").bind(1, name).bind(2, value.to!string).execute();
		}
	}

// usage:

	 property Duration created() {
		return get!ulong("created", 120).dur!"seconds";
	}

	 property void created(Duration val) {
		set("created", val.total!"seconds");
	}
Jun 22 2015
prev sibling parent "Sebastiaan Koppe" <mail skoppe.eu> writes:
On Saturday, 20 June 2015 at 12:35:11 UTC, weaselcat wrote:

 I recently read this facebook post on their future 
 implementation in their Folly library.

 https://code.facebook.com/posts/1661982097368498

 This made me slightly envious. Thoughts on a D implementation?


After having worked with Observables/RX[1], Futures look kind of 
silly to me. I implemented some of them into D (with the help of 
fibers).

Recently I made a small program that, on a merged pull-request on 
bitbucket, looks if the branch contains fix123, bug-123, etc. and 
toggles the ready-to-review status on the issue-tracker.

This is what the code looks like:

```
bitbucketObservable.filter((PullRequest pr)
     {
         return pr.destination == "master" && pr.type == 
PullRequest.Type.MERGED;
     }).map((PullRequest pr)
     {
         auto r = regex(r"(fix|bug)[\/\-_]*([0-9]+)");
         return match(pr.source, r);
     }).filter((RegexMatch!(string, ThompsonMatcher) m)
     {
         return !m.empty();
     }).map((RegexMatch!(string, ThompsonMatcher) m)
     {
         return m.captures[2].to!int;
     }).concatMap((int bug)
     {
         return getCookie.fork(1).setReadyToReview(bug, "updated 
from D");
     }).subscribe((json)
     {
         writefln("Response from bontq: %s",json);
     },(Exception e)
     {
         writeln("Error: %s",e);
     });
```

[1] https://github.com/Reactive-Extensions/RxJS
Jun 22 2015