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digitalmars.D - Females in the community.

reply Karabuta <Karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
Are there any female programmers using D? :)
Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders suck 
at these things and its not helping. This is not about gender 
balance crap, it about building a community.

Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

Destroy :)
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply DennisQuaid <d quaid.com> writes:
If you're looking for girl try matchfinder.com or something like 
that. Here's about "Compilers/Programming Language" so most 
people here are bearded guys.
Mar 17 2016
parent reply Gerald Jansen <gjansenXXX XXXownmail.net> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:33:45 UTC, DennisQuaid wrote:

 Here's about "Compilers/Programming Language" so most people 
 here are bearded guys.


Actually this extreme gender imbalance is something that struct 
me ever since I started watching the DConf videos and following 
these forums. Is it the same in other comparable communities? Or 
is there perhaps something about the D language or its community 
that contributes to the extreme gender imbalance? 
(Competitiveness and occasional aggressivity in these forums, for 
example?)
Mar 17 2016
parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 18:06:32 UTC, Gerald Jansen wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:33:45 UTC, DennisQuaid wrote:

 Here's about "Compilers/Programming Language" so most people 
 here are bearded guys.


 Actually this extreme gender imbalance is something that struct 
 me ever since I started watching the DConf videos and following 
 these forums. Is it the same in other comparable communities? 
 Or is there perhaps something about the D language or its 
 community that contributes to the extreme gender imbalance? 
 (Competitiveness and occasional aggressivity in these forums, 
 for example?)


Look at pretty much any technical conference or open source 
community. The vast majority of those involved will be men. There 
are definitely women programmers out there, and some among them 
do get involved in communities like this, but in general, for 
whatever reason, the vast majority of programmers are men, and 
that's what you're naturally going to see in communities like 
this. But if women want to be involved, there's nothing stopping 
them, and it's not like we ask about gender here, so a number of 
the posters could be women without you even knowing it. And a 
woman _did_ speak at dconf 2013 - Maxime Chevalier-Boisvert - and 
she's occasionally posted in the newsgroup. So, they do exist 
here.

http://dconf.org/2013/talks/chevalier_boisvert.html

In general though, I don't think that there's any reason to care 
about what gender people are here. Your gender has nothing to do 
with your skill or knowledge level as a programmer and really 
shouldn't have any impact on the discussions here.

- Jonathan M Davis
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially 
male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women would 
be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And I'm 
sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral".

Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing for 
everyone.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:55:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:



 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who 
 actually understand how to communicate and build a community.




That's how good documentations are written.


 That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially 
 male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women 
 would be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And 
 I'm sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral".


I don't mean it that way. It's a figure of speech :)


 Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing 
 for everyone.


Now you are dropping my main point

I personally don't care whether male or female. I care about the 
community and that is where I would like to see more activity. 
The community(social) has currently received less attention IMO.

It's not that D is not yet good for more adoption, the issue is 
with social marketing.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:55:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:



 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who





 That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially 
 male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women 
 would be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And 
 I'm sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral".

 Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing 
 for everyone.


"Mortal" not "moral", it's a figure of speech called "Metaphor" :)
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:55:29 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:

 That's a lot of stereotypes of both men and women, especially 
 male coders. I don't appreciate the implication that women 
 would be better than me at communicating because I'm a guy. And 
 I'm sure women don't appreciate being called "soft" and "moral".

 Let's drop this whole discussion before it gets embarrassing 
 for everyone.


Agreed. We don't ask posters what their gender is, and we really 
don't care. We're here to discuss programming and D, not social 
issues. What are we going to talk about next? How we don't have 
enough of some particular religious group here? It doesn't 
matter. Anyone who wants to discuss D and programming and is 
willing to be civil about it is welcome to post here. Stuff like 
gender really doesn't matter.

And I probably should have just ignored this thread entirely, 
since I have far better things to be doing than discuss 
irrelevant stuff like whether any of the posters here are women 
are not. We _all_ have better things to be doing than that.

- Jonathan M Davis
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 17.03.2016 17:17, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we need a
 female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to
 communicate and build a community. Coders suck at these things and its
 not helping. This is not about gender balance crap, it about building a
 community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


I can't be the only one who is irritated by this use of the word 
"female". Why do you avoid "woman"? "A female" sounds like you're 
talking about an animal.

Also, I don't agree with equating female with social media / public 
relations / community work. If someone wants to take a role of community 
manager (or whateer), great. I don't care if they're a man or a woman. 
We should not ask female programmers to be poster girls for D.
Mar 17 2016
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/17/2016 01:02 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:

 I can't be the only one who is irritated by this use of the word
 "female". Why do you avoid "woman"?


"Woman" excludes non-adults. Non-adult, like I was when I started with code.

That's the problem with PC nitpicking, it never ends.


 "A female" sounds like you're
 talking about an animal.


Not to a native english speaker.
Mar 25 2016
parent reply ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 25.03.2016 15:56, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 03/17/2016 01:02 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:


[...]

 "Woman" excludes non-adults. Non-adult, like I was when I started with
 code.


Being most inclusive is clearly not the goal here. Otherwise Karabuta 
wouldn't have specified the sex. Did he choose "a female" to include 
children when talking about "someone soft and mortal who actually 
understand how to communicate and build a community"? I doubt it.


 That's the problem with PC nitpicking, it never ends.


I agree that picking on every word someone says isn't good. And it's 
worse when bad intent is assumed behind every little odd choice of 
words. I don't mean to do that.

Maybe this use of "female" is benign, but it rubs me wrong way. I don't 
think I've been too hard on Karabuta by telling him that.


 "A female" sounds like you're
 talking about an animal.


 Not to a native english speaker.


I call bullshit on that. I don't have any strong evidence, and I'm not 
even a native English speaker myself, but I simply don't buy it.

Here's the first Google hit I got for "animal documentary male female":

https://youtu.be/kY7SlH3rzhQ?t=430

Didn't take long to find a spot where they talk about "the males" and 
"the females", because they always do in animal documentaries.

Note how the speaker switches from "male"/"female" for kangaroos to 
"man"/"woman" for humans. That's what I'm talking about.
Mar 25 2016
parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/25/2016 03:40 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:

 On 25.03.2016 15:56, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 On 03/17/2016 01:02 PM, ag0aep6g wrote:

 "A female" sounds like you're
 talking about an animal.


 Not to a native english speaker.


 I call bullshit on that. I don't have any strong evidence, and I'm not
 even a native English speaker myself, but I simply don't buy it.

 Here's the first Google hit I got for "animal documentary male female":

 https://youtu.be/kY7SlH3rzhQ?t=430

 Didn't take long to find a spot where they talk about "the males" and
 "the females", because they always do in animal documentaries.

 Note how the speaker switches from "male"/"female" for kangaroos to
 "man"/"woman" for humans. That's what I'm talking about.


Of course they switch like that: It's an animal documentary, it helps to 
have an extra verbal cue for clarification when they switch between 
talking about animals vs humans. "Man"/"Woman" implies "Human". 
"Male"/"Female" are more generic than that. That's why they switch. Not 
because "Male"/"Female" implies "Non-Human" (it doesn't), but because 
"Man"/"Woman" DOES imply "Human" - an obviously important distinction in 
an animal documentary.

Regardless of that, the whole matter is dead simple, though many are too 
blinded by fear of offending to see the blatantly obvious:

Any "man" here who TRULY DOES get offended (and not just thinks he 
should get offended, or that other guys might be offended) by being 
called "A *MALE*" can go ahead and argue about "a woman" being 
offensive. Anyone else needs to drop their paranoid, self-contradictory 
bullshit.
Mar 28 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)


Are you programing by slamming your dick on the keyboard ? No ? 
Me neither. Therefore, your genitalia don't matter here.


 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.


It is not brutal, it is dull and cringe-worthy.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:07:28 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)


 Are you programing by slamming your dick on the keyboard ? No ? 
 Me neither. Therefore, your genitalia don't matter here.


 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who 
 actually understand how to communicate and build a community. 
 Coders suck at these things and its not helping. This is not 
 about gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.


 It is not brutal, it is dull and cringe-worthy.


Really, you guys feel that way? Maybe it's because we are from 
different cultural and social backgrounds :)

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is what I intend to pass 
forward for discussion.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent Ice Create Man <ice cream.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:07:28 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)


 Are you programing by slamming your dick on the keyboard ?


If I was coding that way, does it change your opinion ;)
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


Wow, stereotype much? "soft and mortal". Yikes.

P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism? 
It sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say 
"female" in a technical setting or about an animal, so it can 
sound a bit disrespectful.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:42:43 UTC, John Colvin wrote:


 P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism? 
 It sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say 
 "female" in a technical setting or about an animal, so it can 
 sound a bit disrespectful.


As an American, it seems more natural to me to use 'female' and 
'male' as adjectives, as we're bombarded with that usage from 
birth. It's not a conscious decision, but 'woman programmer' just 
makes me cringe (even if you view it as a compound noun). To me, 
*that* sounds insulting, though I would be be hard pressed to 
explain why. When it comes to non-compound nouns, 'man' and 
'woman' are the 'correct' choice. 'Male' and 'female' as nouns 
are what you would expect to see in a research paper or text book.

Then again, America's large enough that there may also be a 
regional aspect to it, though I don't believe that's the case.
Mar 17 2016
parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 04:51:21 +0000, Mike Parker wrote:


 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 17:42:43 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 

 P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism?
 It sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say "female"
 in a technical setting or about an animal, so it can sound a bit
 disrespectful.


 
 As an American, it seems more natural to me to use 'female' and 'male'
 as adjectives


As an adjective, agreed. "Lady" compounds better than "woman", so you can 
use that too.

Using 'female' as a noun in place of 'woman' is in my experience a 
hallmark of pick-up artists, men's rights activists, and allied trades. 
Just don't do it.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:00:09 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 As an adjective, agreed. "Lady" compounds better than "woman", 
 so you can use that too.


So now, we are up to language policing already. You guys are true 
wonders of progress. The epitome of the free world.


 Using 'female' as a noun in place of 'woman' is in my 
 experience a hallmark of pick-up artists, men's rights 
 activists, and allied trades. Just don't do it.


"The word is used by people I don't like, no it should be banned".

Such progress. Much enlightenment. Wow !
Mar 22 2016
parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:03:15 +0000, deadalnix wrote:


 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:00:09 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 As an adjective, agreed. "Lady" compounds better than "woman",
 so you can use that too.


 So now, we are up to language policing already. You guys are true
 wonders of progress. The epitome of the free world.


Not policing. Giving recommendations. Describing usages.


 Using 'female' as a noun in place of 'woman' is in my experience a
 hallmark of pick-up artists, men's rights activists, and allied trades.
 Just don't do it.


 
 "The word is used by people I don't like,


Used in order to dehumanize a population, specifically.


 no it should be banned".


A recommendation to avoid a certain word is much different from banning 
people from using it.


 Such progress. Much enlightenment. Wow !


Helping others to be polite is in fact progressive and enlightened. Your 
response is neither.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:43:07 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 Helping others to be polite is in fact progressive and 
 enlightened. Your response is neither.


The problem with this idea is that you need an authority which 
decides what is the correct polite speech and what's not. There's 
no registry of universally polite speech. There can't be. I 
remind you - this post is made in a forum of a programming 
language over 10 years old and there're still major syntax change 
requests posted (DAE hove/hate semicolons?).

You can't please everyone. People have different ideas about 
what's offensive/progressive. As long as you're agreeing with the 
authority you're fine, the problem starts when you're not. You 
are going to get old and stop keeping up with the progressive 
idea of the day. Did you know that motherland is now a regressive 
word? Here's a VS addon to remind you of that:

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=shinnn.alex

Why don't we look past the superficial stuff in the language and 
assume good intent? Do we really need to stand on moral high 
ground and look down on people less skilled in communicating 
politely? Is drama and infantilization of the community worth 
that feeling you get when 1-upping a regressive person? This time 
could be spent better by making awesome libraries for example. 
With that bluntly communicating person.
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:33:55 +0000
schrieb QAston <qaston gmail.com>:


 https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=3Dshinnn.alex


"The novelist from my motherland excites a lot of sci-fi
addicts by his crazy storytelling."

=E2=80=A6 (from the screen-shot) turns into =E2=80=A6

"The novelist from my native land excites a lot of sci-fi
people with a drug addiction by their disgusting storytelling."

I feel safer now, having avoided these lingual traps.

--=20
Marco
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 11:33:55 UTC, QAston wrote:

 Why don't we look past the superficial stuff in the language 
 and assume good intent?


Because some people have nothing of substance to contribute, but 
still want to feel superior.
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 03/17/2016 01:42 PM, John Colvin wrote:

 P.S. what's with calling women "females", is it an americanism? It
 sounds super weird to a British ear, we'd normally only say "female" in
 a technical setting or about an animal, so it can sound a bit
 disrespectful.


I don't know about over there, but in the US political correctness 
issues get everyone whipped into a hysterical frenzy, so words like 
"male"/"female" are an (obviously failed, by the sound of it) attempt to 
sidestep all that "hurt feelings" bullshit by using terms that (we would 
think) couldn't possibly be construed as slurs.

If someone can't even freaking figure out WHY they find a word 
offensive, they have no damn business squaking about it allegedly being 
offensive. For fuck's sake, people.
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Darkfeign <darkfeign gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


I.. what? I'm sure there are female programming at least 
experimenting with D. I would agree that the social media side of 
D suffers from no focused individual assuming the role, but 
gender is irrelevant there. Andrei does a great job at outreach 
for those already in the tech industry, but I would agree that Go 
(through its adoption of the Gopher) does well to engage a more 
broad community, encouraging more people to give Go a try and 
incorporating a younger audience much like Python does with their 
imagery.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/17/2016 09:17 AM, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)


StackOverflow has just published their developer survey. There are close 
to 6% female coders who answered their survey:

 
http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#developer-profile-gender

That link somewhat answers the "woman" versus "female" use as well (they 
use "female").

"Female" does not sound that bad to my American-English-tainted Turkish 
ears but something related has been happening in Turkey: Somehow the 
society decided that "kadın", the equivalent of "woman" was impolite and 
started using "bayan", almost the equivalent of "lady". Imagine suddenly 
starting to hear things like "lady scientist" instead "woman 
scientist"... We humans are crazy. At least some of us use D. :p

Ali
Mar 17 2016
parent ag0aep6g <anonymous example.com> writes:
On 17.03.2016 19:57, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#developer-profile-gender


 That link somewhat answers the "woman" versus "female" use as well (they
 use "female").


They don't use "female" as a noun, though. Search for "women" on that 
page, and replace it with "females". Then you have the weird, zoological 
sounding usage.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Carter <john.carter taitradio.com> writes:
It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.

I personally would feel reluctant to get involved in anything 
where there was a high probability of vitriolic rejection. (Yes, 
sadly, some 'net communities have, unfortunately, gone to very 
extreme lengths in their rejection.)

Part me says ignore them, gender has nothing to do with 
programming.

Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more pleasant 
and functional places.

Certainly Python has done well to actively welcome them, and I 
would suggest we do the same.

So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach would 
go a long way.

https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply Lass Safin <lasssafin gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:

 It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
 woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.

 I personally would feel reluctant to get involved in anything 
 where there was a high probability of vitriolic rejection. 
 (Yes, sadly, some 'net communities have, unfortunately, gone to 
 very extreme lengths in their rejection.)

 Part me says ignore them, gender has nothing to do with 
 programming.

 Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
 human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more 
 pleasant and functional places.

 Certainly Python has done well to actively welcome them, and I 
 would suggest we do the same.

 So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach 
 would go a long way.

 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/



Currently, internships are open >internationally to women (cis 
and trans), >trans men, and genderqueer people. >Additionally, 
they are open to residents >and nationals of the United States 
of any >gender who are Black/African American, >Hispanic/Latin , 
American Indian, Alaska >Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific 

Islander. We are planning to expand the >program to more 


participants from >underrepresented backgrounds in the >future.


I, I mean, I just really CAN'T take you seriously, when you link 
shit like that.

I mean, sure, groups with a better balance of women and men tend 
to fare better, but thing is, we don't really care about the 
gender of someone, whom we aren't with physically. We just don't. 
The only moment, where members of the D community meet each 
other, is at DConf, and we aren't holding DConf every single day 
of the year.

And the thing which you've linked to, that (absolutely 
horrendous) outreachy thing, is something I'd rather actually not 
see, if I was a women: I wouldn't fucking want to join a 
community, who presents a text like that to my face. What the 
_fuck_ is shit like "cis" and "genderqueer" supposed to mean? 
When I see a text like that, all I think is that the community 
surrounding this language (or software or I don't know whhat) is 
instead of focusing on improving the language, focusing om fixing 
social pseudo-problems. This is a huuuuuge turn-off for me.

Just, please, don't.
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent John Carter <john.carter taitradio.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 21:42:55 UTC, Lass Safin wrote:


 And the thing which you've linked to, that (absolutely 
 horrendous) outreachy thing,


Relax.

If you don't like that example, grab another. Pyladies whatever. 
Not the point.

The point is make people know they're welcome and they contribute.

Make them doubt their welcome, they go where ever there is 
evidence that they might be.

Simple.

Human.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:42:55 +0000, Lass Safin wrote:

 I, I mean, I just really CAN'T take you seriously, when you link shit
 like that.
 
 I mean, sure, groups with a better balance of women and men tend to fare
 better, but thing is, we don't really care about the gender of someone,
 whom we aren't with physically. We just don't.


https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/

"Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend to be 
accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's gender is 
identifiable, they are rejected more often."

In other words, you can be any gender you want! Just don't let people in 
the community know if you're not a guy. Hope that wasn't an important 
part of your identity, like if your parents went as far as dressing you 
in different clothing because your gender from the day you were born or 
something like that.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/

 "Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend 
 to be accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's 
 gender is identifiable, they are rejected more often."


It is not peer reviewed and for good reasons.


 In other words, you can be any gender you want! Just don't let 
 people in the community know if you're not a guy.


In other words, you can be fed horseshit, as long as it goes into 
your confirmation bias, you are happy to eat it.


 Hope that wasn't an important part of your identity, like if 
 your
 parents went as far as dressing you in different clothing 
 because
 your gender from the day you were born or something like that.


Ok let me tell you something about my identity, where I was born 
and all of this. I was born and grew in France. You may not know, 
but all the idiocies you are spouting are just rebranding of 
French post-modernism and structuralism/post-structuralism. 
Derida, Foucault, Deleuze, Bourdieu, etc ...

The whole damn thing became very popular after Mai 68, and, 
because of Gramcism, became the norm, notably in schools, in less 
than 2 decades. Meaning I was fed this nonsense pretty much 
everyday for like 20 years. There is hardly anything new in what 
you are presenting me. I get that you are all existed because 
this is new in the US, but while you guys are discovering glacier 
are sexists, we, in France, already knew that E=mc^2 is a sexed 
equation because it "privilegize the speed of light over other 
speed that are also vitally necessary to us" (Iriguay, 1987).

It is all ex post facto rationalization to fit the narrative. See 
your "study" ? Women get more PR merged => women are better 
coders. Women get less PR merged => women are oppressed.

It is all mental gymnastic and zero content.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:25:26 +0000, deadalnix wrote:


 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/

 "Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend to be
 accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's gender is
 identifiable, they are rejected more often."


 It is not peer reviewed and for good reasons.


It's from a source with many peer-reviewed articles, and you're not 
providing any evidence at all, peer reviewed or otherwise, to counter it.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:38:00 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 It's from a source with many peer-reviewed articles, and you're 
 not providing any evidence at all, peer reviewed or otherwise, 
 to counter it.


Good thing the burden of proof is not on me then.

I mean why would I have to present anything at this point ? 
Everything that has been presented so far has been a complete 
trainwreck, as expected.

I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up bankrupting 
the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research and invisible 
vitriol, you have presented no case that is worth debunking so 
far.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:52:03 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up 
 bankrupting the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research and 
 invisible vitriol, you have presented no case that is worth 
 debunking so far.


https://www.gnome.org/press/2016/02/gnome-foundation-was-never-bankrupt/
Mar 22 2016
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 03:18:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:52:03 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up 
 bankrupting the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research 
 and invisible vitriol, you have presented no case that is 
 worth debunking so far.


 https://www.gnome.org/press/2016/02/gnome-foundation-was-never-bankrupt/


Ok there was a "temporary cash flow issue", and "GNOME 
Foundation’s board temporarily froze expenditures while it 
collected the funds and revamped its financial procedures to 
adjust for the additional cash flow going forward".

That really doesn't change anything to the point I'm making.
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/22/2016 12:25 PM, deadalnix wrote:

 we, in France, already knew that
 E=mc^2 is a sexed equation because it "privilegize the speed of light
 over other speed that are also vitally necessary to us" (Iriguay, 1987).


I had to learn more about that:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luce_Irigaray

Ali
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling parent reply tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/

 "Surprisingly, our results show that women's contributions tend 
 to be accepted more often than men's. However, when a woman's 
 gender is identifiable, they are rejected more often."

 In other words, you can be any gender you want! Just don't let 
 people in the community know if you're not a guy. Hope that 
 wasn't an important part of your identity, like if your parents 
 went as far as dressing you in different clothing because your 
 gender from the day you were born or something like that.


That study really didn't show what the headlines claimed at all:
     
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/

"1. Among insiders, women get more requests accepted than men.

2. Among insiders, people are biased TOWARDS women, that is, 
revealing genders gives women an advantage over men above and 
beyond the case where genders are hidden.

3. Among outsiders, women still get more requests accepted than 
men.

4. Among outsiders, revealing genders appears to show a bias 
against women. It’s not clear if this is statistically 
significant.

5. When all genders are revealed among outsiders, men appear to 
have their requests accepted at a rate of 64%, and women of 63%. 
The study does not provide enough information to determine 
whether this is statistically significant. Eyeballing it it looks 
like it might be, just barely.

6. The study describes its main finding as being that women have 
fewer requests approved when their gender is known. It hides on 
page 16 that men ALSO have fewer requests approved when their 
gender is known. It describes the effect for women as larger, but 
does not report the size of the male effects, nor whether the 
difference is statistically significant. Eyeballing it, it looks 
about 2/3 the size of the female effect, and maybe?"

The significance and cause of these effects was not proven 
either; the study had many, many confounding factors - including 
the fact that they didn't even have an unbiased way of 
determining the gender of their subjects, to begin with.
Mar 22 2016
parent dewitt <dkdewitt gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 00:11:17 UTC, tsbockman wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/




This whole discussion made me wanna watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlR6CdJtRWM
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply WhatMeWorry <kheaser gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:

 It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
 woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.

 I personally would feel reluctant to get involved in anything 
 where there was a high probability of vitriolic rejection. 
 (Yes, sadly, some 'net communities have, unfortunately, gone to 
 very extreme lengths in their rejection.)


I don't get this at all?  I've been coming to this site for years 
and I don't recall any "vitriolic rejections" of either men or 
women. I can't think of a more egalitarian community than what 
I've experienced here.  I find this to be one of the most cordial 
and helpful sites I have ever had the pleasure of visiting.


 Part me says ignore them, gender has nothing to do with 
 programming.


Who here has ever argued otherwise?


 Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
 human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more 
 pleasant and functional places.


Again, I doubt if anybody here disagrees with this statement.


 Certainly Python has done well to actively welcome them, and I 
 would suggest we do the same.


How is D not welcoming "them".  We welcome anybody who is 
interested in D.


 So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach 
 would go a long way.

 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/


Google, Intel, HP, Bloomberg, etc are sponsoring this outreach. D 
does not have any such luxury.

Listen, I would love that more women were interested in 
programming languages. I've seen many good women programmers (my 
wife was one) but it is usually for a paid job.  I doubt you'll 
find many women who program out of the sheer pleasure of it, or 
who will spend their free time holed up in front of a workstation 
figuring out the inner working of mixins or traits.

But don't feel too bad. Females vastly outnumber men in the 
veterinary and biology fields. I don't see their web sites going 
out of their way to "welcome" me.
Mar 17 2016
parent Darkfeign <darkfeign gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:02:47 UTC, WhatMeWorry wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:

 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/


 Google, Intel, HP, Bloomberg, etc are sponsoring this outreach. 
 D does not have any such luxury.

 Listen, I would love that more women were interested in 
 programming languages. I've seen many good women programmers 
 (my wife was one) but it is usually for a paid job.  I doubt 
 you'll find many women who program out of the sheer pleasure of 
 it, or who will spend their free time holed up in front of a 
 workstation figuring out the inner working of mixins or traits.

 But don't feel too bad. Females vastly outnumber men in the 
 veterinary and biology fields. I don't see their web sites 
 going out of their way to "welcome" me.


This is very true. I know that, particularly in academia, there 
is an enormous amount of additional funding to entice women to 
enter the STEM subjects, particularly engineering/computer 
science. I don't believe many, if any, other fields have similar 
outreach programs.

D's community is very open and welcoming, certainly focusing on 
merit above all.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:

 So a simple statement of welcome and some level of outreach 
 would go a long way.

 https://www.gnome.org/outreachy/


First the women outreach program was a financial disaster for 
gnome, see: 
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2143160/gnome-foundation-faces-cash-crunch-over-women-outreach-program.html

Second, I love these that think women are too dumb to know they 
can contribute unless we explicit tell them so are the one giving 
lessons to others about sexism. You guys are projecting so hard 
you should open a theater.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 20:03:08 UTC, John Carter wrote:

 It is very clear from the 'net that some communities welcome 
 woman, and some actively hate them, some ignore them.


Please link me to a single community (programming, os, library 
development) that hates women.

Ignoring women/men and other superficial divides is equal 
treatment. I'm a dog with brain and paw enchantments - nobody 
even has to know.

Welcoming everyone is the way to go. Focusing on specific groups 
is bias. Create a special program for women and now you have an 
unnecesary divide in your community.  Don't imply to women that 
they couldn't deal with other programmers outside of your little 
safe-space - that's degrading and not true. Focus on the 
commonalities - like hating C++ templates :).


 Part of me observes we are human first, programmers second, and 
 human groups with a healthy gender mix are simpler more 
 pleasant and functional places.


[Citation needed] What's the right mixture of people? Are biology 
departments and engineering departments less functional and 
pleasant than departments with more equal distribution? Do you 
really notice the gender behind nicknames and does it really 
affect your pleasure from participating in this newsgroup? Sorry 
to break your bubble but women are every bit as capable of being 
unpleasant as men are. Ah, and they sometimes fart too.
Mar 19 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply lobo <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a 
closet misogynist. If you want more women to join the D community 
first you need to understand why your dull and inane comments are 
extremely degrading.

And it isn't your use of the word female - figure it out then 
grow up.

bye,
lobo
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent reply maarten van damme via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
 This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a closet


misogynist

Great, so you answer a poorly thought out attempt to encourage women to
join this community by bashing on younger people?
Mar 17 2016
next sibling parent lobo <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:36:41 UTC, maarten van damme 
wrote:

 This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a 
 closet


 misogynist

 Great, so you answer a poorly thought out attempt to encourage 
 women to join this community by bashing on younger people?


The comments don't deserve diplomacy and are highly offensive. 
The OP needs to realise we're not all soft and mushy creatures 
incapable of cutting code. Besides the OP himself said it was a 
brutal opinion and therefore it deserves a brutal answer.

And this is the internet after all so it's the place to have 
pointless debates.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 17.03.2016 23:36, maarten van damme via Digitalmars-d wrote:

  > This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a closet
 misogynist

 Great, so you answer a poorly thought out attempt to encourage women to
 join this community by bashing on younger people?


No. That statement does not make any value judgments about younger people.
Mar 18 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:28:34 UTC, lobo wrote:

 And it isn't your use of the word female - figure it out then 
 grow up.


I care so little about this thread, but the focus on the word 
female is interesting. I don't recall anyone ever complaining 
about referring to women as females until this thread. Maybe it's 
the international nature of the forum.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 22:28:34 UTC, lobo wrote:

 This very sexist and you are clearly either very young or a 
 closet misogynist. If you want more women to join the D 
 community first you need to understand why your dull and inane 
 comments are extremely degrading.


Ideas like "gender/genitals/race matter more than merit" are 
coming back because of identity politics. Sadly, that's 
perpetuated by so called intersectional feminists, who are well 
intentioned, but whose actions result in a "concern troll" 
threads like this. It's ultimately harmful to everyone, because 
it's divisive and results in unequal treatment (positive and 
negative discrimination).
Mar 19 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/17/2016 9:17 AM, Karabuta wrote:

  Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we need a female,
 at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to communicate and
 build a community. Coders suck at these things and its not helping. This is not
 about gender balance crap, it about building a community.



As far as the D community goes, I don't care about anyone's gender, politics, 
age, race, disabilities, charisma, social skills, country, history, personal 
hygiene, religion, etc. I only care about ability, commitment, and
contributions 
to D, i.e. a meritocracy, as close as we can get to one.

Many D community members are known only by their online handles, which they
pick 
themselves. If they choose to have an anonymizing layer, it is their right to
do 
so, and if anyone "unmasks" such contributors, I consider it an egregious 
affront to the community.

I do ask that people use real names for github commitments, and this is for 
legal reasons in case there is some problem with the rights to the code, but if 
they choose not to, they choose not to, and we will respect that.

We make no attempt to track online users of the D sites, either. (Though be 
aware that github does, we don't control github.)

As discussed in an earlier thread, I refuse to have a "Code of Conduct" for the 
forums or the D conferences.
Mar 17 2016
parent Ola Fosheim Grostad <ola.fosheim.grostad gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 23:00:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 As discussed in an earlier thread, I refuse to have a "Code of 
 Conduct" for the forums or the D conferences.


As long as you moderate it just means that the "code of conduct" 
is your own personal views. I.e. People have to second guess what 
the code is, ref "mainstream american norms".
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Guillaume Piolat <name.lastname gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)


I can think of 3 on the top of my head, there won't be active in 
this forum though like the largest part of the community.
Mar 17 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de> writes:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we 
 need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually 
 understand how to communicate and build a community. Coders 
 suck at these things and its not helping. This is not about 
 gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


I guess this thread now only serves as a lesson in "political" 
writing.

Karabuta wanted to discuss that "the social media representation 
of D sucks". Unfortunately, he opened his post with a question 
for "female programmers using D". Even the title is "Females in 
the community". The discussion derailed into sexism and whatnot.

I would advice Karabuta (or anyone else) to make another 
top-level post without any references to gender, if you want to 
discuss social media.

The only women I noticed in the D community is Maxime [0]. She 
built a research Javascript compiler with D for her PhD and now 
joined Apple. Maybe we should ask her, if there are issues 
concerning women and the D community?

[0] http://pointersgonewild.com/
Mar 18 2016
next sibling parent reply Karabuta <Karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 18 March 2016 at 12:09:45 UTC, qznc wrote:

 On Thursday, 17 March 2016 at 16:17:46 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think 
 we need a female, at least someone soft and mortal who 
 actually understand how to communicate and build a community. 
 Coders suck at these things and its not helping. This is not 
 about gender balance crap, it about building a community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


 I guess this thread now only serves as a lesson in "political" 
 writing.

 Karabuta wanted to discuss that "the social media 
 representation of D sucks". Unfortunately, he opened his post 
 with a question for "female programmers using D". Even the 
 title is "Females in the community". The discussion derailed 
 into sexism and whatnot.

 I would advice Karabuta (or anyone else) to make another 
 top-level post without any references to gender, if you want to 
 discuss social media.


Yeah, you are totally right. I though that it was clear that the 
statement contained "metaphors". Howerver, people had there own 
"words they wanted to spit out" :) I will try not to use 
metaphors in coders forum next time :)

It bothers me that some "BAD" programming languages have 
marketing edge on the social media, whilst D has none. You know, 
that's where "everybody" is nowadays.

On the side note, you saw through all the various comments and 
realized what I meant. That's amazing :)
Mar 19 2016
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 19 March 2016 at 13:14:14 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 Yeah, you are totally right. I though that it was clear that 
 the statement contained "metaphors". Howerver, people had there 
 own "words they wanted to spit out" :) I will try not to use 
 metaphors in coders forum next time :)


No, you said say stupid stuff and got your ass kicked for it. 
Nothing to do with others. Grow a spine.


 It bothers me that some "BAD" programming languages have 
 marketing edge on the social media, whilst D has none. You 
 know, that's where "everybody" is nowadays.


If you wanted to talk about this, you should have talked about 
this. Don't blame other for your shortcomings.
Mar 19 2016
prev sibling parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:09:45 +0000, qznc wrote:


 The only women I noticed in the D community is Maxime [0]. She built a
 research Javascript compiler with D for her PhD and now joined Apple.
 Maybe we should ask her, if there are issues concerning women and the D
 community?


There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit of 
code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by the 
community.

It didn't help that this was around the time of major controversial 
changes with the language and before there was a process for contributing 
to Phobos. However, Andrei wasn't too far off from that story, and I 
recall a fair bit more vitriol toward Janice.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a 
 fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not 
 well treated by the community.


[citation needed]

A quick glance show that you are full of crap:
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Feature_request_array_stuff_70431.html
http://forum.dlang.org/post/mailman.139.1196168459.2338.digitalmars-d puremagic.com
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/automatic_conversion_to_invariant_string_67951.html
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Invariant_Question_yes_another_one_61626.html
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Limited_member_function_templates_61337.html
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/cast_const_proposal_57947.html
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Casting_away_const_and_invariant_57937.html

Even looking for it I can't find it.


 It didn't help that this was around the time of major 
 controversial changes with the language and before there was a 
 process for contributing to Phobos. However, Andrei wasn't too 
 far off from that story, and I recall a fair bit more vitriol 
 toward Janice.


Well that vitriol must have been mixed with a fair amount of 
sodium hydroxide.
Mar 22 2016
parent reply Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:


 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit of
 code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by the
 community.


 [citation needed]


It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more than 
five years.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:


 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a 
 fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not 
 well treated by the community.


 [citation needed]


 It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for 
 more than five years.


You are looking more and more convincing, please continue...
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:


 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a 
 fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not 
 well treated by the community.


 [citation needed]


 It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for 
 more than five years.


Janice Caron's last post was in 2008. I've been on #d since 2006, 
and the first time I've seen Andrei on IRC was in 2010.

Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.

I find this extremely hard to believe.
Mar 22 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 04:42:24 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.

 I find this extremely hard to believe.


Not that this is a terribly important issue, but both Andrei, 
Deadalnix, Dicebot and many others have in the past expressed 
themselves using harsh wordings in these forums, so not quite 
sure why you would find it extremely hard to believe that someone 
has objected to something Andrei has said or the way he said it? 
I object to lots of things he has said and the ways he has said 
it!

To the people who don't think there are gender differences: take 
a look at all-female groups and compare them to all-male groups. 
The dynamics are different. Men are in general competitive. Women 
are just as competitive as men, but not with people the consider 
to be in their in-group/peers. In such settings the average woman 
is more likely to play down her own abilities "Oh, no, I am no 
better than you, I also have trouble with X,Y,Z" to find balance 
and common ground. So claiming that having a male dominated group 
doesn't affect social dynamics is not-very-scientific. Gender 
differences in social settings are real.

Are people treated differently based on their presentation and 
identity? Yes. Are people more likely to complain about quality 
when they look at something with greater scrutiny? Yes, because 
if they invest time into evaluating then finding a flaw is 
considered being productive (spending time on something and not 
finding flaws makes the effort wasted). Will people look at code 
with more scrutiny if the submitter stands out in some way, most 
likely. Do some men have trouble with having a young woman as 
their boss, initially, yes. Is that related to men having 
dominance related issues versus women, most likely. Is there a 
biological foundation for this? Most likely.

Can you treat a woman exactly the same way you treat a man 
without being perceived as sexist? Probably not. If the average 
woman expects and wants to find common ground, but many men are 
inclined to assert their dominance (towards both men and women), 
then you have a fundamental clash of expectations.

Is this all culture? Obviously not, the root for 
dominance/emotions are very biological in their foundation. Can 
we do something about it? Only by paying attention to our own 
flaws.

Is it reasonable to expect a male dominated culture to switch 
into an interaction mode that the average woman would prefer? 
Probably not. And vice versa.

Does the dynamics of male dominated groups change when you 
increase the number of women in the group? Yes.

The only way a person can be non-discriminating is by realizing 
that we in our nature are stereotyping and discriminating. It is 
integral to human nature og social dynamics.

I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, 
because I have yet to meet a person that doesn't.

So the OP was basically right, and you are all wrong and in 
denial!!! ;-)
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/23/2016 1:27 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:

 I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, because I have yet
 to meet a person that doesn't.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:37:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/23/2016 1:27 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:

 I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, 
 because I have yet
 to meet a person that doesn't.


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog


If you hide your gender you can, but I vastly prefer people who 
present their real name. I rate people more favourably if they go 
by their real handle, even if I strongly disagree with them, 
honesty is a very important quality. So I don't think 
discrimination can be avoided (in the broad sense), without going 
into hardcore deception (and that can be damaging). There is this 
famous essay of a MUD community that mourned over the death of a 
core community member, but it turned out the person just 
committed virtual suicide, not a physical death...

I've been playing several personas that were female presenting in 
settings where it was socially acceptable, but male acting, 
before this became a topic (mid 90s) and there certainly was bias 
in the interaction that ensued from time to time. It is also very 
educational to put yourself emotionally into identity and 
cultural expectations related to the opposite gender.

Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more cooperative 
female side (information sharing) and the more competitive male 
side (debating) of interaction within a group. We all have both 
aspects, of course, and for progress we need a mix.

But gender affects how some people learn too. Male students may 
not want to admit to others that they don't know the topic and 
study the manuals instead of asking questions. Female students 
appears to have less resistance to asking questions. This is good 
if you want to be productive, but by studying the manuals you 
also learn a lot of stuff that you don't need at the time, but 
might need later. Some women also do this, of course, but I think 
there might be many very real gendered reasons for why more men 
are technical geeks than women.

Generally, it seems like it is more common for female engineers 
seems to be motivated by solving real problems rather than having 
the technology being the goal. I think male geeks often are the 
ones that picked their toys into pieces to figure out how they 
worked. Some girls do that too, just not as common.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:12:34 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:37:01 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:

 If you hide your gender you can, but I vastly prefer people who 
 present their real name. I rate people more favourably if they 
 go by their real handle, even if I strongly disagree with them, 
 honesty is a very important quality. So I don't think 
 discrimination can be avoided (in the broad sense), without 
 going into hardcore deception (and that can be damaging). There 
 is this famous essay of a MUD community that mourned over the 
 death of a core community member, but it turned out the person 
 just committed virtual suicide, not a physical death...

 I've been playing several personas that were female presenting 
 in settings where it was socially acceptable, but male acting, 
 before this became a topic (mid 90s) and there certainly was 
 bias in the interaction that ensued from time to time. It is 
 also very educational to put yourself emotionally into identity 
 and cultural expectations related to the opposite gender.

 Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more 
 cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more 
 competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a group. 
 We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress we need a 
 mix.

 But gender affects how some people learn too. Male students may 
 not want to admit to others that they don't know the topic and 
 study the manuals instead of asking questions. Female students 
 appears to have less resistance to asking questions. This is 
 good if you want to be productive, but by studying the manuals 
 you also learn a lot of stuff that you don't need at the time, 
 but might need later. Some women also do this, of course, but I 
 think there might be many very real gendered reasons for why 
 more men are technical geeks than women.

 Generally, it seems like it is more common for female engineers 
 seems to be motivated by solving real problems rather than 
 having the technology being the goal. I think male geeks often 
 are the ones that picked their toys into pieces to figure out 
 how they worked. Some girls do that too, just not as common.


[citations needed] for so much you post. You need to update your 
knowledge of evo-psych. I could tell you exact opposite: men are 
the  more coopoerative sex. Show me examples of great all female 
cooperation please. I could point to the building you're sitting 
in. Most likely made almost exclusively by males. You know when 
males are competitive? When they compete for female attention. 
For example by starting a thread like this. Perfect example of 
virtue signaling. Your real first name doesn't tell me anything - 
in my language it's female, I don't even know what the language 
you're using. I don't give a damn.

All of the above doesn't matter. Stop making up gender issues 
when there're none. Stop dividing the community into classes. We 
don't need identity politics. Artists with patronage and 
programmers are among most welcoming groups out there. You know 
why programming attracts various social outcasts? Because we've 
always been welcoming. Don't fuck that up.
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:

 [citations needed] for so much you post. You need to update 
 your knowledge of evo-psych.


You should learn not to open a reply with going ad hominem. The 
fact that you don't, suggests to me that I've struck a nerve and 
that you basically don't have much to add to this debate...

I am also not basing my statements on pseudo-scientific 
evo-psych...



 I could tell you exact opposite:  men are the  more 
 coopoerative sex.


I haven't said anything about one sex being more cooperative than 
the other.



 You know when males are competitive? When they compete for 
 female attention.


Men position themselves also with other men they like, women are 
more likely to compete with people they don't like and more 
likely to downplay their own position with people they like to 
put themselves at the same level and create a connection. You 
very rarely see men claim that they are less capable in order to 
connect with people they like. The average woman communicate more 
at the personal level, are more likely to resolve issues they 
have, and are less likely to commit suicide as a result. Those 
are facts.

Statistical gender differences are real, measurable and 
observable to anyone willing to look at it. Does it apply at the 
individual level? No. There are greater differences between 
individuals than between genders.

However, an all-female community and an all-male community have 
typically different characteristics. Both online and offline.


 You know why programming attracts various social outcasts? 
 Because we've always been welcoming. Don't fuck that up.


Actually, the D forums can be quite hostile at times, but it 
doesn't last for a very long.

I've actually spent years of my life studying social interaction 
on the internet and virtual worlds, academically. So you will 
most likely fail to engage me at a level where I can learn 
anything from your "citations".

What exactly are you trying to tell me? That programmers are 
somehow outcasts, by what definition? Even if it was true, then 
maybe it would be the other way around, given that system level 
programming is an extremely time consuming activity.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 12:04:19 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 Actually, the D forums can be quite hostile at times, but it 
 doesn't last for a very long.

 I've actually spent years of my life studying social 
 interaction on the internet and virtual worlds, academically. 
 So you will most likely fail to engage me at a level where I 
 can learn anything from your "citations".

 What exactly are you trying to tell me? That programmers are 
 somehow outcasts, by what definition? Even if it was true, then 
 maybe it would be the other way around, given that system level 
 programming is an extremely time consuming activity.


Oh, what I was posting weren't citations either obviously. That 
was the point: we could argue both ways. Either way - it don't 
matter.

And yes, I'm saying that the world of programming has a history 
of accepting "weird" people. That's partially because we have a 
clear measurment: either your stuff works or it doesn't. No need 
for identity wars. Computing was dominated by women after the 
ww2, it was shifted towards men later on. Maybe it will shift 
back. Who cares - we all have so much in common as programmers 
that it doesn't really matter which parts of your body hang down.
Mar 23 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 12:35:59 UTC, QAston wrote:

 And yes, I'm saying that the world of programming has a history 
 of accepting "weird" people. That's partially because we have a 
 clear measurment: either your stuff works or it doesn't. No 
 need for identity wars. Computing was dominated by women after 
 the ww2, it was shifted towards men later on. Maybe it will 
 shift back. Who cares - we all have so much in common as 
 programmers that it doesn't really matter which parts of your 
 body hang down.


Fair enough, but here is some background worth mentioning.

In high school I went to a section that was geared towards 
computers and electronics. We started with 3 girls and lots of 
boys from all over the city. After a year we only had 1 girl 
left, and I don't recall any of the boys quitting. She was a 
cute, natural, bubbly girl, but in order to get an easier time 
she changed into a more silent/serious and mainstream girl which 
made her more accepted by the teenage boys. When we had classes 
with another class with more girls the boys dampened their 
comments... basically the presence of girls made them moderate 
themselves and act less obnoxious towards others (both boys and 
girls). Studies generally say that mixed groups do provide a more 
satisfactory environment. That'a probably true for online forums 
too.

In the army I had the same kind of experience. Male dominating 
and somewhat rough. The women that persists in such environments 
tend to take on less feminine manners too in order to gain 
respect. Although we also had a very feminine, extremely pretty, 
sergeant who did gain some respect, but her first inspection got 
very awkward, the men lost words, stuttered, giggled and 
generally had trouble keeping a straight face. She totally 
enjoyed it! So gender does create very real differences, 
sometimes suppressing (forcing women to become more like men), 
sometimes empowering.

In the academic sector the situation was better. Still male 
dominated, but more general awareness of gender issues. Still, as 
a teacher you can see that one strong female student in a male 
dominated group can do well and take the group leader position, 
but that more average students might benefit from having 
all-female groups.

I have absolutely no doubt that women are just a good programmers 
as men, but in my experience women in informatics tends to 
gravitate towards topics where they get to work with other people 
in addition to the technology. At one department meeting where we 
discussed how to attract more women to the Comp. Sci. department, 
one of the very bright professors said that she wasn't sure if we 
actually would do those women a favour since pure computer 
science is such a dull and meaningless topic... ;-) Of course, 
the gender percentage is not the real issue, the real issue is to 
make the study attainable and enjoyable for all. If only a small 
percentage of all women find it meaningful, then that is quite 
understandable and hardly a disaster, but if they don't even 
consider Compi. Sci. because it is male dominated then that is 
not good either.

Anyway, I think the mixed settings makes for better norm 
formation and interesting interaction, but we cannot declare that 
there should be more women interested in system level 
programming. In my experience that path starts in the early geeky 
teens by kids picking hardware to pieces... So we are basically 
stuck with the discourse of a male dominated community, which is 
not ideal, even for the male participants IMHO.
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:

 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.


LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of 
women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but I'm 
practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more work 
than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially women.)

I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.

Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:

 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.


 LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of 
 women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but 
 I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more 
 work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially 
 women.)

 I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.

 Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.


Point taken :D
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:

 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.


 LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of 
 women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but 
 I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more 
 work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially 
 women.)

 I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.

 Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.


"Most likely"

According to the bureau of labor statistics, 9.3% of people 
working in construction were women. That definitively fit in the 
most likely category to me.

I'm not sure what you were laughing at ? Come on Adam, I know 
from previous interactions we had that you are way smarter than 
this.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 06:32:17 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 Come on Adam, I know from previous interactions we had
 that you are way smarter than this.


I could certainly like to see comments like this done away with 
too. Reasonable people ought to be able to disagree without 
calling each other idiots (or implying the same).

But I don't feel like arguing this.
Mar 24 2016
parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 14:36:39 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 06:32:17 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 Come on Adam, I know from previous interactions we had
 that you are way smarter than this.


 I could certainly like to see comments like this done away with 
 too. Reasonable people ought to be able to disagree without 
 calling each other idiots (or implying the same).


1. He didn't call you an idiot. (He actually did the opposite, 
although objecting to a particular thing you said to him.)

2. Your original post was pretty obviously intended to mock 
deadalnix. ("LOL." "We all got a good laugh.") What kind of 
response were you expecting?
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:

 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.


 LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of 
 women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but 
 I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more 
 work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially 
 women.)

 I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.


Yes, it was funny to me as my mother worked as an industrial 
designer in the 1960s and designed a top-of-the-line radio 
(within a group of men) called Tandberg Huldra 9. She spent a lot 
of time on the backlight, and came up with acrylic backlight as a 
novel solution (at that point in time). She wanted the front to 
be all black, but the head of the company didn't want that, so it 
was all aluminium coloured like the top image:

http://nrhf.no/Tandberg/TR%20Radio/Tandberg%20Huldra/T'Huldra-9.html

After she quit Tandberg released the version with only the bottom 
half in black...  Which looks a bit silly. But guess what, some 
decades later audiophile equipment was black aluminium and 
acrylic backlights was standard... I am pretty sure that there 
are many "invisible" women involved with the products we use, but 
maybe men are spending more effort at getting their name 
published. Incidentally, she had to correct a newspaper earlier 
this year that wrongly attributed her design to a male designer 
(he was hired after she quit)...

Later when she was teaching furniture design/interior architects, 
most students were female, so they tried to get some men in as 
well in order to get a more mixed group. Most educators know that 
having some diversity in a group is good for the social dynamics. 
The interaction in mixed groups are usually more interesting than 
all-male or all-female groups.



 Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.


Maybe or maybe not, but meta discussions are important for 
changing norms within a forum. If a given tone means that some 
women hesitate to join in, it probably also means that a group of 
men also hestitate to join in. Adjusting the tone might mean that 
more people will participate which would be better for all.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Abdulhaq <alynch4047 gmail.com> writes:
I have to say I agree that, for better or for worse, this thread 
alone demonstrates an occasional aggressiveness that puts me off, 
never mind women who are, generally speaking, less likely to 
weather the tone of voice often used here.

Karabuta seems to be a non-native English speaker and got laid 
into for using the wrong word for women. He took the lashing in 
good spirits but it doesn't bode well for the thinner skinned who 
might otherwise have a valuable contribution to make.


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 08:39:01 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:

 I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely 
 made almost exclusively by males.


 LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of 
 women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but 
 I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did 
 more work than me anyway. The other five are all 
 non-controversially women.)

 I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.


 Yes, it was funny to me as my mother worked as an industrial 
 designer in the 1960s and designed a top-of-the-line radio 
 (within a group of men) called Tandberg Huldra 9. She spent a 
 lot of time on the backlight, and came up with acrylic 
 backlight as a novel solution (at that point in time). She 
 wanted the front to be all black, but the head of the company 
 didn't want that, so it was all aluminium coloured like the top 
 image:

 http://nrhf.no/Tandberg/TR%20Radio/Tandberg%20Huldra/T'Huldra-9.html

 After she quit Tandberg released the version with only the 
 bottom half in black...  Which looks a bit silly. But guess 
 what, some decades later audiophile equipment was black 
 aluminium and acrylic backlights was standard... I am pretty 
 sure that there are many "invisible" women involved with the 
 products we use, but maybe men are spending more effort at 
 getting their name published. Incidentally, she had to correct 
 a newspaper earlier this year that wrongly attributed her 
 design to a male designer (he was hired after she quit)...

 Later when she was teaching furniture design/interior 
 architects, most students were female, so they tried to get 
 some men in as well in order to get a more mixed group. Most 
 educators know that having some diversity in a group is good 
 for the social dynamics. The interaction in mixed groups are 
 usually more interesting than all-male or all-female groups.



 Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.


 Maybe or maybe not, but meta discussions are important for 
 changing norms within a forum. If a given tone means that some 
 women hesitate to join in, it probably also means that a group 
 of men also hestitate to join in. Adjusting the tone might mean 
 that more people will participate which would be better for all.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:06:15 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:

 I have to say I agree that, for better or for worse, this 
 thread alone demonstrates an occasional aggressiveness that 
 puts me off, never mind women who are, generally speaking, less 
 likely to weather the tone of voice often used here.

 Karabuta seems to be a non-native English speaker and got laid 
 into for using the wrong word for women. He took the lashing in 
 good spirits but it doesn't bode well for the thinner skinned 
 who might otherwise have a valuable contribution to make.


The thread itself strengthened Karabuta's core message, didn't 
it? :-)

Unfortunately, I am not sure if there are anyone in the D 
community that would make a good objective moderator, so I am not 
sure exactly how it can be fixed other than these occasional 
"storming" threads that end with an appeal to self-moderation.

I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder 
that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men 
need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow doubt 
that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get a 40% 
approval rating for it.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:57:22 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 The thread itself strengthened Karabuta's core message, didn't 
 it? :-)

 Unfortunately, I am not sure if there are anyone in the D 
 community that would make a good objective moderator, so I am 
 not sure exactly how it can be fixed other than these 
 occasional "storming" threads that end with an appeal to 
 self-moderation.

 I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder 
 that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men 
 need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow 
 doubt that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get 
 a 40% approval rating for it.


If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that seems 
to be the problem) meeting your standards.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:

 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that 
 seems to be the problem) meeting your standards.


Replace male by jew in your sentence and ask yourself how it 
sounds.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:52:58 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:

 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that 
 seems to be the problem) meeting your standards.


 Replace male by jew in your sentence and ask yourself how it 
 sounds.


I'm pretty sure Qaston was being sarcastic.
Mar 24 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 03:20:01 UTC, Joakim wrote:

 I'm pretty sure Qaston was being sarcastic.


Indeed I was. It was difficult to not mock contempt for lesser 
people in that post.

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:57:22 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 Maybe or maybe not, but meta discussions are important for 
 changing norms within a forum. If a given tone means that some 
 women hesitate to join in, it probably also means that a group 
 of men also hestitate to join in. Adjusting the tone might mean 
 that more people will participate which would be better for all.


[...]

 The thread itself strengthened Karabuta's core message, didn't 
 it? :-)

 Unfortunately, I am not sure if there are anyone in the D 
 community that would make a good objective moderator, so I am 
 not sure exactly how it can be fixed other than these 
 occasional "storming" threads that end with an appeal to 
 self-moderation.

 I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder 
 that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men 
 need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow 
 doubt that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get 
 a 40% approval rating for it.


I don't want to walk on eggshels. Incidents happen sometimes on 
this forum (as well as everywhere - we're just people) but they 
get resolved. The forum self-regulates because it's not yet a 
circle jerk, and people being critical of others is one of the 
reasons for that. Karabuta apparently can handle criticism - good 
for him - the more people like that the better.

It's funny how society "helps" women. Some crazy entitled women 
declare "manspreading" an issue. Good daddy - state - intervenes 
and bans sitting the wrong way [1]. It's not like women are 
adults and can ask a person to move, they're delicate flowers who 
need protection from state in cases of SLIGHTEST first world 
inconveniences. Entitlement intensifies - now cat-calling is a 
problem women can't deal with [2]. Now doctor can't tell a fat 
woman that her lifestyle is unhealthy - that's fat shaming [3]. 
Colleges are not really an example of intellectually healthy 
environment [4]. There will never be enough placating, but men 
need to step up!

Here's a crazy idea: women can do everything they want. They're 
adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators. So 
they're better capable of adapting to "male forums", that's what 
collaboration is about. I don't think they need strong male 
protective arm to handle internet. And they fart - apparently I 
need to keep reminding people about that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11643052/Manspreading-arrests-the-long-arm-of-the-law-just-invaded-our-personal-space.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/391430/why-cat-calling-really-problem-christine-sisto
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/fat-shaming/
http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2015/11/25/from-megaphones-to-muzzles-free-speech-safe-spaces-and-college-campuses
Mar 25 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:

 adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators.


I've never said that. And that is not true as a general statement.
Mar 25 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:25:50 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:

 adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators.


 I've never said that. And that is not true as a general 
 statement.


You sort of did here.


 Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more 
 cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more 
 competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a group. 
 We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress we need a 
 mix.


You know. Communication. Forums. :P
Mar 25 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:55:35 UTC, QAston wrote:

 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:25:50 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:

 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:

 adults. According to Ola women are better collaborators.


 I've never said that. And that is not true as a general 
 statement.


 You sort of did here.


 Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more 
 cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more 
 competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a 
 group. We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress 
 we need a mix.


 You know. Communication. Forums. :P


I think I clearly stated that we all have "female" and "male" 
sides. :-)

Anyway, nice talking to you. You seem willing to think outside 
the box, that is a good quality. :)
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:22:55 UTC, QAston wrote:

I don't think they need strong  male protective arm to handle 
internet.


I'm not really sure why I respond to this BUT YOU ARE MISSING THE 
POINT to a level where I'm at loss of words. Which is really 
really hard to do. ;^)

Women do not loose out by not studying Comp. Sci. IT IS THE 
OPPOSITE. Comp. Sci. loose out by not having the best qualified 
students from both genders.

Women do not loose out by not participating in the D community. 
IT IS OPPOSITE. The D community loose out by having a tone that 
are off-putting to some women and even more men (due to the fact 
that there are far more male system level programmers than 
women). Yes, D has lost users thanks to this attitude. And people 
have accounted for it.

So, if you want to stay small. Great. This is the way to go.

All socities are engineered at some level. That you guys think 
the Jews are relevant is appalling! You don't get the difference 
between EUGENICS and CULTURE? WTF?

No wonder Donald Trump is having blaze! :-)
Mar 25 2016
parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:38:56 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 I'm not really sure why I respond to this BUT YOU ARE MISSING 
 THE POINT to a level where I'm at loss of words. Which is 
 really really hard to do. ;^)


[...]

 All socities are engineered at some level. That you guys think 
 the Jews are relevant is appalling! You don't get the 
 difference between EUGENICS and CULTURE? WTF?

 No wonder Donald Trump is having blaze! :-)


Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and 
fascists, and eugenics, and communists, and jews) at least in one 
specific aspect - references to him on a unrelated topic should 
end the discussion.


 Women do not loose out by not studying Comp. Sci. IT IS THE 
 OPPOSITE. Comp. Sci. loose out by not having the best qualified 
 students from both genders.

 Women do not loose out by not participating in the D community. 
 IT IS OPPOSITE. The D community loose out by having a tone that 
 are off-putting to some women and even more men (due to the 
 fact that there are far more male system level programmers than 
 women). Yes, D has lost users thanks to this attitude. And 
 people have accounted for it.

 So, if you want to stay small. Great. This is the way to go.


In my opinion D didn't gain as much traction because it's 
mismarketed. It's marketed as a systems programming language 
while it doesn't have advantages compared to the other system 
languages - it's more problematic in cases where people need the 
system level programming language, especially the fact that it's 
heap-happy. It should be marketed as a domain programming 
language because it has more advantages compared to other domain 


Making community more accessible is obviously desired. And I 
agree with what you've just written - accessible for both men and 
women. So it's not a gender issue. Policies applied need to be 
neutral to not create resentment.
Mar 25 2016
parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:


 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and fascists, and
 eugenics, and communists, and jews)


We've made it! :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Ali
Mar 25 2016
next sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:


 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and


 fascists, and

 eugenics, and communists, and jews)


 We've made it! :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might make 
sense. :-)

https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q
Mar 26 2016
parent reply deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:


 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and


 fascists, and

 eugenics, and communists, and jews)


 We've made it! :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


 Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might 
 make sense. :-)

 https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q


Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.
Mar 26 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:02:22 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:

 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:


 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and


 fascists, and

 eugenics, and communists, and jews)


 We've made it! :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


 Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might 
 make sense. :-)

 https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q


 Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.


It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is the 
same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of 
Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is 
also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who 
knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure 
it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing 
power to the strong leader.

Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless variant 
that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not entirely 
unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be jihadist 
targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully not missile 
launches.

In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, 
Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have 
comparison material here in Europe.
Mar 26 2016
next sibling parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:31:06 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:02:22 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
 Grøstad wrote:

 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:


 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and


 fascists, and

 eugenics, and communists, and jews)


 We've made it! :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


 Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might 
 make sense. :-)

 https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q


 Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.


 It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is 
 the same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of 
 Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is 
 also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who 
 knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure 
 it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing 
 power to the strong leader.

 Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless 
 variant that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not 
 entirely unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be 
 jihadist targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully 
 not missile launches.

 In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, 
 Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have 
 comparison material here in Europe.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/78/f2/2b78f2e25f06ed43f7dfe89c0ae9b1bf.jpg
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:31:06 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is 
 the same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of 
 Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is 
 also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who 
 knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure 
 it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing 
 power to the strong leader.

 Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless 
 variant that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not 
 entirely unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be 
 jihadist targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully 
 not missile launches.

 In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, 
 Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have 
 comparison material here in Europe.


I didn't want to end my participation in this discussion on a 
negative note, but this reply is so ironic it hurts.

A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and wishes 
for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic (US 
election) and goes on about it; despite having been personally 
asked by a moderator to not do that [1].

There's a reason why Godwin's law exists - it points out that 
comparisons to unrelated, emotionally loaded topics are not 
arguments - just diversion. Fascism and Hitler are just the most 
popular ones to use. Nobody cares about actual meaning of nazism 
and fascism - it's just an emotional blindfold, frequently used 
by media to slander and for clickbait. Why don't we leave US 
election discussion to US citizens on forums devoted to politics.

https://forum.dlang.org/post/nd35j5$14k2$1 digitalmars.com
Mar 26 2016
parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 19:52:18 UTC, QAston wrote:

 A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and 
 wishes for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic


You need to relax. The topic wasn't divisive. I haven't asked for 
moderation. I haven't argued in favour of objectivity. What is 
appropriate and not appropriate in an off-topic social thread 
like this is entirely cultural. I don't consider politics to be 
particularly contentious, and have never seen it been made an 
issue of, outside of very narrow US contexts, in my past _30_ 
years on the Internet. The overall problem with this mentality is 
that you aren't supposed to mention politics _in case_ someone 
gets offended, not because they actually do get offended. Which 
pretty much makes it very difficult to get a working democracy.

What _is_ a problem in these forums are the level of butt-hurt 
personal focus, not the occasional social thread. This community 
would be much better if there were more social threads, actually. 
A general forum is _usually_ a catch-all forum, so if you guys 
want to allow socialization, but don't want off-topic threads you 
probably should consider creating a separate social forum.

Of course, it seems like socialization is not a priority, but 
then you won't see the formation of strong bonds either (outside 
of IRC etc). Github doesn't really form strong ties. The basic 
idea that people will form strong teams based on code alone is 
not entirely well-founded.
Apr 11 2016
parent reply Karabuta <karabutaworld gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 11 April 2016 at 17:12:03 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 19:52:18 UTC, QAston wrote:

 A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and 
 wishes for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic


 You need to relax. The topic wasn't divisive. I haven't asked 
 for moderation. I haven't argued in favour of objectivity. What 
 is appropriate and not appropriate in an off-topic social 
 thread like this is entirely cultural. I don't consider 
 politics to be particularly contentious, and have never seen it 
 been made an issue of, outside of very narrow US contexts, in 
 my past _30_ years on the Internet. The overall problem with 
 this mentality is that you aren't supposed to mention politics 
 _in case_ someone gets offended, not because they actually do 
 get offended. Which pretty much makes it very difficult to get 
 a working democracy.

 What _is_ a problem in these forums are the level of butt-hurt 
 personal focus, not the occasional social thread. This 
 community would be much better if there were more social 
 threads, actually. A general forum is _usually_ a catch-all 
 forum, so if you guys want to allow socialization, but don't 
 want off-topic threads you probably should consider creating a 
 separate social forum.

 Of course, it seems like socialization is not a priority, but 
 then you won't see the formation of strong bonds either 
 (outside of IRC etc). Github doesn't really form strong ties. 
 The basic idea that people will form strong teams based on code 
 alone is not entirely well-founded.


+1
Apr 12 2016
parent deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 at 14:57:33 UTC, Karabuta wrote:

 On Monday, 11 April 2016 at 17:12:03 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
 wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 19:52:18 UTC, QAston wrote:

 A person who advocates for a more welcoming community and 
 wishes for objective moderation introduces a divisive topic


 You need to relax. The topic wasn't divisive. I haven't asked 
 for moderation. I haven't argued in favour of objectivity. 
 What is appropriate and not appropriate in an off-topic social 
 thread like this is entirely cultural. I don't consider 
 politics to be particularly contentious, and have never seen 
 it been made an issue of, outside of very narrow US contexts, 
 in my past _30_ years on the Internet. The overall problem 
 with this mentality is that you aren't supposed to mention 
 politics _in case_ someone gets offended, not because they 
 actually do get offended. Which pretty much makes it very 
 difficult to get a working democracy.

 What _is_ a problem in these forums are the level of butt-hurt 
 personal focus, not the occasional social thread. This 
 community would be much better if there were more social 
 threads, actually. A general forum is _usually_ a catch-all 
 forum, so if you guys want to allow socialization, but don't 
 want off-topic threads you probably should consider creating a 
 separate social forum.

 Of course, it seems like socialization is not a priority, but 
 then you won't see the formation of strong bonds either 
 (outside of IRC etc). Github doesn't really form strong ties. 
 The basic idea that people will form strong teams based on 
 code alone is not entirely well-founded.


 +1


Say the 2 guys that contributed no code, what a surprise ! Who 
could have predicted this ?
Apr 12 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent David Dewitt <dkdewitt gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:31:06 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 18:02:22 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 On Saturday, 26 March 2016 at 17:59:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim 
 Grøstad wrote:

 On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:


 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and


 fascists, and

 eugenics, and communists, and jews)


 We've made it! :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


 Godwin's corollary is that comparisons to Hitler also might 
 make sense. :-)

 https://youtu.be/67S_F8MYqvs?list=FL97w06gd9NgIfSx28diBC_Q


 Yeah, but in this case, it doesn't make any.


 It actually does. The key points for the election campaign is 
 the same at the early campaign Hitler had. Restore the pride of 
 Germany. Restore German industry. Blame an outgroup. There is 
 also pretty good overlap in his 1933 speech. Politically, who 
 knows. Trumps political position is: elect me and I will figure 
 it out later. And that actually is the core of fascism, handing 
 power to the strong leader.

 Trump is a caricature of a wannabe fascist, the spineless 
 variant that fucks up the world by accident. Which is not 
 entirely unthinkable as his resorts and Trump Tower will be 
 jihadist targets. Only God knows what will follow. Hopefully 
 not missile launches.

 In direct comparison he is much more in the line of Mussolini, 
 Berlusconi, Milosevic and their like. We certainly have 
 comparison material here in Europe.


Wow this thread is off the chain.

Trump is the only GOP candidate that doesn't want to gut so 
called Entitlements, doesn't support trade deals that don't 
benefit the US worker, thinks US bases in Europe and Japan etc 
are a waste, and there are other positions that the avg Joe 
agrees with.  I'm all for closing bases esp since we can have a 
Carrier Strike Group just about anywhere at anytime.  I voted for 
him in the AZ primary cause I was a registered Repub from voting 
for Ron Paul previously.  Not that I agree with him on a number 
of items but I feel that way about all the candidates.  Also he 
would be the 1st president that happens to be in the WWE Hall of 
Fame and that must mean something!!!! This election sucks if you 
ask me.  #DeezNuts2016
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/26/2016 11:31 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:

 ...Hitler...


For the third time, please stop with the politics here.
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 22:35:56 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 04:31 AM, QAston wrote:


 Well I can agree that Trump is like Hitler (and nazis, and


 fascists, and

 eugenics, and communists, and jews)


 We've made it! :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

 Ali


I thought it was clear that this Hitler was refering to the 
Godwin's law already - just look at the rest of the post :)
Mar 26 2016
prev sibling parent =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 03/24/2016 04:52 PM, deadalnix wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:

 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that seems to
 be the problem) meeting your standards.


 Replace male by jew in your sentence and ask yourself how it sounds.


We're getting there: :)

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Ali
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:04:42 UTC, QAston wrote:

 If only one could somehow engineer societies (males? - that 
 seems to be the problem) meeting your standards.


Well, online one can engineer societies, if one are willing to 
spend the investments, but men are not the problem. Women are 
just as dysfunctional as men are, and both men and women 
experience gender-related discrimination in different fields 
(custody cases come to mind).

I'll even say that the in-your-face bluntness-agression is 
preferably to silent aggression/freezing out, because bluntness 
can be addressed and corrected more easily. Hopefully we don't 
have a big freezing out problem (but how can you tell?). We do 
have the occasional bluntness problem.

But let me ask you this question instead: would you expect the 
average man to feel inclined to join an all-female online 
community? I wouldn't. Just turn the gender around and ask the 
same question again: would you expect the average woman to feel 
inclined to join an all-male online community?

Clearly, you need to think about how you grow your online 
community if you want to create openings either way.
Mar 25 2016
parent QAston <qaston gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 10:09:36 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 Well, online one can engineer societies, if one are willing to 
 spend the investments, but men are not the problem. Women are 
 just as dysfunctional as men are, and both men and women 
 experience gender-related discrimination in different fields 
 (custody cases come to mind).


Totally agreed.


 I'll even say that the in-your-face bluntness-agression is 
 preferably to silent aggression/freezing out, because bluntness 
 can be addressed and corrected more easily. Hopefully we don't 
 have a big freezing out problem (but how can you tell?). We do 
 have the occasional bluntness problem.


Shit happens, ability to deal with it is important so IMO it's 
not a problem.


 But let me ask you this question instead: would you expect the 
 average man to feel inclined to join an all-female online 
 community? I wouldn't. Just turn the gender around and ask the 
 same question again: would you expect the average woman to feel 
 inclined to join an all-male online community?

 Clearly, you need to think about how you grow your online 
 community if you want to create openings either way.


Well, I don't have to speculate about that because I've seen 
communities specifically declared as male/female in their name 
and every one of them included people of both genders.

I personally wouldn't join a community which was solely defined 
as a space for the other sex - but that's because I wouldn't find 
things of interest to me. But that's not the case for programming 
forums. We are here because we use the programming language, 
gender is just incidental.
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:57:22 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 I find the Donald Trump phenomena to be an unpleasant reminder 
 that there are certain aspects of our male culture that we men 
 need to address both in ourselves and in others. I somehow 
 doubt that a woman could act the same way as Trump does and get 
 a 40% approval rating for it.


[OT] While I am also disturbed by how much support Donald Trump 
has gotten, 40% is a great exaggeration.

According to the national polls tracked by Real Clear Politics, 
Trump currently has about 43% of the *Republican* vote - which 
itself is only about 30% of the *national* vote, meaning that his 
real support is ~13%. (Most years, about 40% of the country 
refuses/chooses not to endorse either candidate in the general 
election for President.)

Admittedly, that number will certainly go up if he gets the 
Republican nomination - but even among those who do vote, many on 
both sides of the aisle regard themselves as choosing "the lesser 
of two evils", as opposed to truly *approving* of their candidate.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:

[...]


Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no relevance to 
programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and there are certainly plenty of 
political threads on reddit for anyone inclined.
Mar 24 2016
next sibling parent tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 04:52:09 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:

[...]


 Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no 
 relevance to programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and 
 there are certainly plenty of political threads on reddit for 
 anyone inclined.


Fair enough. I would say this thread has been political from the 
beginning, though, long before anyone mentioned Donald Trump...
Mar 24 2016
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 25/03/2016 04:52, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:

 [...]


 Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no relevance
 to programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and there are certainly
 plenty of political threads on reddit for anyone inclined.


... and this is why code of conducts are created, so people can know 
what is acceptable for discussion and what isn't.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 25 2016
next sibling parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 26.03.2016 01:34, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 On 25/03/2016 04:52, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 4:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:

 [...]


 Maybe we should leave politics out of this forum. It adds no relevance
 to programming, generates lots of bad feeling, and there are certainly
 plenty of political threads on reddit for anyone inclined.


 ... and this is why code of conducts are created, so people can know
 what is acceptable for discussion and what isn't.


If they don't know that, plenty of CoCs have been created for them to 
read. But there's not much point anyway. Programmers in particular 
should be aware that it is basically impossible to formally specify the 
intricacies of social rules.

The only thing that would be different with a CoC is that Walter would 
additionally link to the CoC instead of just making a mature suggestion. 
Furthermore, people contributing to unwanted discussions would be able 
to point out that technically, the phrasing of the CoC does not rule out 
their specific behaviour as they understand the terms used, etc.

Who here needs a CoC to understand that the current thread should 
ideally not have happened in this form?
Mar 25 2016
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/25/2016 8:46 PM, Timon Gehr wrote:

 The only thing that would be different with a CoC is that Walter would
 additionally link to the CoC instead of just making a mature suggestion.



Be like Billy - behave yourself!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQRuNwOMzW8&list=PLBFA47360BEAFBC75
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/25/2016 5:34 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 ... and this is why code of conducts are created, so people can know what is
 acceptable for discussion and what isn't.



http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004QTOTH6/
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 23:16:05 UTC, tsbockman wrote:

 According to the national polls tracked by Real Clear Politics, 
 Trump currently has about 43% of the *Republican* vote - which 
 itself is only about 30% of the *national* vote, meaning that 
 his real support is ~13%. (Most years, about 40% of the country 
 refuses/chooses not to endorse either candidate in the general 
 election for President.)


Ok, Trump is at 38% now vs Clinton  and at 37% vs Sanders so it 
seems like the exposure is having at least a noticeable negative 
effect... We'll see, the dynamics are interesting to watch.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.html
Mar 25 2016
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Please, no politics here. Take it to https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/
Mar 25 2016
prev sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:27:59 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad 
wrote:

 On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 04:42:24 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
 wrote:

 Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.

 I find this extremely hard to believe.


 Not that this is a terribly important issue, but both Andrei, 
 Deadalnix, Dicebot and many others have in the past expressed 
 themselves using harsh wordings in these forums, so not quite 
 sure why you would find it extremely hard to believe that 
 someone has objected to something Andrei has said or the way he 
 said it? I object to lots of things he has said and the ways he 
 has said it!


Mainly because of the other part you didn't quote.

Also because the GP used the word "vitriol".


 [snip]


I'm guessing the rest isn't really a reply to my post.
Mar 23 2016
parent Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQ=?= writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:25:46 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 Also because the GP used the word "vitriol".


Yes, but Chris has already stated that he is a Social Justice 
Warrior, so he might object to things others don't :-).
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 03/23/2016 12:42 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:


 On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:

 There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit
 of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by
 the community.


 [citation needed]


 It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more
 than five years.


 Janice Caron's last post was in 2008. I've been on #d since 2006, and
 the first time I've seen Andrei on IRC was in 2010.

 Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.

 I find this extremely hard to believe.


I'm not sure what was being implied, but just to clarify a few simple 
facts: Janice and I never interacted on IRC. She and I had a meaningful 
private correspondence for a good while, during which she also revealed 
her identity. I do remember a flamewar in this forum that she found 
harassing, which I did not take part to and which is not easy to find 
and follow because some posts have been removed at the posters' request. 
We'd do good to generally avoid colportage of rumor. And of course, 
making this forum friendlier and more welcoming is something we always 
should aspire to. Thanks! -- Andrei
Mar 23 2016
parent Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:40:07 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 I'm not sure what was being implied, but just to clarify a few simple
 facts: Janice and I never interacted on IRC.


I was comparing reactions to you with reactions to Janice. I did not 
intend to imply that you harassed anyone. The portions of your conduct 
that I have seen have been professional.
Mar 23 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent Chris Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:17:46 +0000, Karabuta wrote:

 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks.


This suggests hiring someone for marketing.


 I think we need a female,


You can start by using the term "woman" rather than "female". 
Deemphasizing people's humanity isn't a good way to get them into your 
community.


 at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to
 communicate and build a community.


It's unfair to demand that a woman come in and help out with a project 
based on stereotypes. If I chose an arbitrary woman to help out, she is 
likely not to have the requisite skills.

You also want us to find a woman willing to do this without compensation 
-- you're not talking about hiring a part time community manager.

Note that community management is much different from marketing. 
Community management is about curation and internal promotion. Adam 
Ruppe's _This Week in D_ is the sort of thing a community manager would 
do. Marketing is about bringing people to D -- representing it at events 
and on social media, that kind of thing.


 Coders suck at these things and its not helping.


See what you just did there? You created a false dichotomy between women 
and coders. There are tons of women who can code. The first programmer 
was a woman. The first person to write a compiler was a woman.

You also insulted everyone here in the same breath.


 This is not about gender balance crap, it about building a community.


Not pushing away half the world by slighting them and demanding that they 
work for free at the same time would be a good start.

You could suggest that the D foundation hire a part-time community 
manager (we're low traffic; 5-10 hours a week should do) and donate to 
help accomplish that.


 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.


If you know in advance that you have to ask forgiveness for something, 
you could simply not do it in the first place.
Mar 22 2016
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 17/03/2016 16:17, Karabuta wrote:

 Are there any female programmers using D? :)
 Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we need a
 female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to
 communicate and build a community. Coders suck at these things and its
 not helping. This is not about gender balance crap, it about building a
 community.

 Forgive me for my brutal opinion.

 Destroy :)


OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread.

One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software 
(discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that 
requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where 
anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this 
registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random, 
anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking 
about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread 
and other threads)

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:
On 23/03/2016 10:51, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread.

 One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software
 (discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that
 requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where
 anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this
 registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random,
 anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking
 about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread
 and other threads)


Ugh, I'm getting quite used to being able to correct spelling errors in 
my posts too, and I can't do it with the newsgroups.

Newsgroups are like the C++ of forum technology...

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 3/23/2016 3:53 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 On 23/03/2016 10:51, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread.

 One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software
 (discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that
 requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where
 anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this
 registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random,
 anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking
 about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread
 and other threads)


 Ugh, I'm getting quite used to being able to correct spelling errors in my
posts
 too, and I can't do it with the newsgroups.


No spelling checker seems to deter a lot of these random, anonymous, poor 
spellers :-)



 Newsgroups are like the C++ of forum technology...


Don't conflate the NNTP protocol with the shortcomings of whatever newsreader 
you're using. Mine, for example, does spell checking. (Thunderbird FWIW)
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 22:26:15 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:


 Newsgroups are like the C++ of forum technology...


 Don't conflate the NNTP protocol with the shortcomings of 
 whatever newsreader you're using. Mine, for example, does spell 
 checking. (Thunderbird FWIW)


Spell checkers don't catch everything. If they did, there would 
have been many fewer edits to make in my manuscript for Learning 
D. They can't catch phrases that are worded ambiguously, or that 
come off in a way they weren't intended. They can't sentences 
that are incorrect, but that you didn't realize until after you 
posted. And so on. Every time I find I've made a mistake in 
something I post in these forums, I have to make a new post to 
correct it. And I'm not the only one. Just look how often people 
reply to themselves with a sed command.

NNTP is a dinosaur. Modern forum software offers so many features 
that people take for granted now. I fully understand why people 
find it annoying that those features aren't available here. A few 
years back, there were a couple of threads suggesting a move to a 
real web forum and I know where you stand on the issue. But as 
the community grows, it's absolutely going to become a necessity 
to make the transition at some point. I would even argue that 
continuing to rely on NNTP as the backend may actually hinder 
forum participation because people just aren't used to it. The 
web interface presents a web forum, which it totally is not in 
modern terms.

I spent a lot of time in my newsreader through the 90s, but that 
was then. Let's move into the 21st century already!
Mar 23 2016
next sibling parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:


 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't


And here's an example of what I'm talking about. On this forum, I 
would normally just let it go, but on a modern forum I can edit 
my post.
Mar 23 2016
parent reply Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 24 March 2016 at 04:45, Mike Parker via Digitalmars-d <
digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:


 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't


 And here's an example of what I'm talking about. On this forum, I would
 normally just let it go, but on a modern forum I can edit my post.


I once saw a Giraffe riding my bicycle.

I suspect that detecting grammar anomalies is difficult (such as the
ambiguous example above).  But then again I've never written a spell
checker, so wouldn't know. :-)



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 7:13 AM, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 But then again I've never written a spell checker, so wouldn't
 know. :-)


dmd has a spell checker built in. (!)



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply cym13 <cpicard openmailbox.org>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:52:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 7:13 AM, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 But then again I've never written a spell checker, so wouldn't
 know. :-)


 dmd has a spell checker built in. (!)


Wait...what? Could you elaborate on that?



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 01:58 PM, cym13 wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:52:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 7:13 AM, Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 But then again I've never written a spell checker, so wouldn't
 know. :-)


 dmd has a spell checker built in. (!)


 Wait...what? Could you elaborate on that?


I think he means the suggestion feature:

void main() {
     int female;
     male = 42;
}

Error: undefined identifier 'male', did you mean variable 'female'?

Ali



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Spell checkers don't catch everything. If they did, there would 
 have been many fewer edits to make in my manuscript for 
 Learning D. They can't catch phrases that are worded 
 ambiguously, or that come off in a way they weren't intended. 
 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't 
 realize until after you posted. And so on. Every time I find 
 I've made a mistake in something I post in these forums, I have 
 to make a new post to correct it. And I'm not the only one. 
 Just look how often people reply to themselves with a sed 
 command.


Do you also not use email, then?



 Mar 23 2016



  parent  Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:19:06 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 03:43:04 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Spell checkers don't catch everything. If they did, there 
 would have been many fewer edits to make in my manuscript for 
 Learning D. They can't catch phrases that are worded 
 ambiguously, or that come off in a way they weren't intended. 
 They can't sentences that are incorrect, but that you didn't 
 realize until after you posted. And so on. Every time I find 
 I've made a mistake in something I post in these forums, I 
 have to make a new post to correct it. And I'm not the only 
 one. Just look how often people reply to themselves with a sed 
 command.


 Do you also not use email, then?


My emails aren't generally available for public consumption.



 Mar 23 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/23/2016 8:43 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 NNTP is a dinosaur.


Vladimir's D forum software.

It doesn't allow editing of posts already made, but it is otherwise much much 
better than endless other "modern" forum software I've had the misfortune to
use.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 07:54:10 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/23/2016 8:43 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 NNTP is a dinosaur.


 Vladimir's D forum software.

 It doesn't allow editing of posts already made, but it is 
 otherwise much much better than endless other "modern" forum 
 software I've had the misfortune to use.


BTW, there is no problem with adding the ability to edit posts, 
except that the edits will of course only be visible to forum 
users, and not NNTP or mailing list.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 07:59:09 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 07:54:10 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/23/2016 8:43 PM, Mike Parker wrote:

 NNTP is a dinosaur.


 Vladimir's D forum software.

 It doesn't allow editing of posts already made, but it is 
 otherwise much much better than endless other "modern" forum 
 software I've had the misfortune to use.




I'm not knocking Vladimir's software. I ditched my newsreader 
some time ago and use the web interface exclusively now. Much 
more convenient. We can debate the usefulness of specific forum 
features that are out there in the wild these days, but the main 
issue is that the most basic features (like editing and deleting 
posts) are not practical when the central database belongs to the 
NNTP server.


 BTW, there is no problem with adding the ability to edit posts, 
 except that the edits will of course only be visible to forum 
 users, and not NNTP or mailing list.


Yeah, I get that. But then we're maintaining two separate 
databases. The database for the web interface should be the 
primary, with all of the post meta-data stored together with the 
posts themselves in one place. Then, people who pull the posts in 
a newsreader after any edits have been made will at least see the 
edited posts (still nothing to do for the mailing list 
subscribers, I suppose). It also allows much easier moderation, 
not relying on the news server admin to delete spam and any posts 
that go beyond the bounds of propriety.

I'm not coming at this from a personal perspective, but from that 
of a new D user who wasn't necessarily around during the height 
of the newsgroup craze. More than once I've seen people post here 
looking for a way to edit or delete their posts. We recently had 
a suggestion her for a means of marking threads as important or 
useful. These are the sorts of thing that people *expect* today, 
whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one more 
thing about the D community that doesn't jibe with expectations, 
like the way the web site looked before the revamp. It's not a 
major issue in and of itself, just an annoyance and a lack of 
convenience, but taken together as a part of the whole it's one 
more point of complaint. One that could be easily resolved.



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 1:41 AM, Mike Parker wrote:

 I'm not knocking Vladimir's software. I ditched my newsreader some time ago and
 use the web interface exclusively now. Much more convenient. We can debate the
 usefulness of specific forum features that are out there in the wild these
days,
 but the main issue is that the most basic features (like editing and deleting
 posts) are not practical when the central database belongs to the NNTP server.


Ironically, I've used various "modern" forum software that didn't allow post 
editing, either. Post editing has its downside, as well. Replies to a post may 
no longer make sense if it was altered.

One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting it for 5 
minutes, and you can have second thoughts.



 I'm not coming at this from a personal perspective, but from that of a new D
 user who wasn't necessarily around during the height of the newsgroup craze.
 More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to edit or delete
 their posts. We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking threads as
 important or useful. These are the sorts of thing that people *expect* today,
 whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one more thing about
 the D community that doesn't jibe with expectations, like the way the web site
 looked before the revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself, just an
 annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a part of the whole
 it's one more point of complaint. One that could be easily resolved.


I've used a lot of other forum software on the web, and most of them have 
maddening gaps in their feature set, and have the look/feel of being written by 
dilettantes as their first project.

For example, take a look at the comments for this article:

 
http://mynorthwest.com/813/2938339/Should-President-Obama-have-come-right-home-after-the-attacks-in-Brussels

Note the lack of tree threading, and the very low information density.

BTW, the distributed nature of NNTP I regard as a major asset. The aggregate of 
the forum posts are an immense resource for D, and having it in a central 
location in a proprietary format is pretty risky.

Also, the C++ illuminati communicate via a mailing list (lists.isocpp.org), 
pretty much equivalent to NNTP. So does Linux. We aren't really out of step
with 
serious developers. Are they old codgers, or are they on to something
overlooked 
by others? Another thing I like about this approach is that posts are
restricted 
to text rather than emoji and pictures and pretty styling - i.e. actual content.

It's hard to find any actual content buried in all the noise:

   http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=112797.0

Emojis, no threading, microscopic text font:

 
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/677326-is-there-an-elegant-way-of-writing-straight-hlsl-code-without-preprocessor-macros/

Here's my (yet another) presentation of the NNTP forums:

 
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Choosing_D_over_C_Go_Rust_Swift_278458.html

I'm sure I could improve it, the styling kinda sux.

We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent  Paolo Invernizzi <paolo.invernizzi no.address>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:


 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


+1!

/Paolo



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply qznc <qznc web.de>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


I agree. There is no need to change anything.

However, there is room for improvement, but it requires to change 
the UI, which is not possible with Newsreaders.

For example, "likes" so you don't have to make one line replies. 
See for example the Rust forum (you need be logged in). This can 
be extended to more semantic flags like "insightful", "offtopic", 
and more. See for example Slashdot.

(Since I mentioned the Rust forum and logging in. Log in via 
OAuth (aka Github etc) should be possible for the web interface.)

What I have not seen in any forum software is the ability to 
connect different topics. A threaded forum is a tree. I would 
like a DAG. The closest thing I used is the Github issue tracker. 
If you mention another issue, it automatically adds a backlink to 
here in there.

Disclaimer: I like the current forum. Keep it! My ideas are very 
experimental and they are probably not worth killing the NNTP 
backend.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 2:54 AM, qznc wrote:

 What I have not seen in any forum software is the ability to connect different
 topics. A threaded forum is a tree. I would like a DAG. The closest thing I
used
 is the Github issue tracker. If you mention another issue, it automatically
adds
 a backlink to here in there.


You can do that manually by inserting URLs (each posting has its own URL), and 
people do that now and then. I admit it's klunky, but it works.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Note the lack of tree threading


That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've 
ever seen and I wish it would die completely.

Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins 
things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be 
said over and over again.


 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


yeah it is good enough for me



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Thursday, March 24, 2016 14:01:04 Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Note the lack of tree threading


 That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've
 ever seen and I wish it would die completely.

 Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins
 things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be
 said over and over again.


LOL. I would _hate_ to lose tree-threading. I wouldn't read the newsgroup
any other way. I don't know how anyone keeps tracks of conversations in a
sane manner without it. But I'm certainly not against having alternatives in
the forum so that users can choose which way works best for them. And folks
using a newsgroup reader or an e-mail client to view the newsgroup have the
same choice.

- Jonathan M Davis



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 15:14, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, March 24, 2016 14:01:04 Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Note the lack of tree threading


 That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've
 ever seen and I wish it would die completely.

 Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins
 things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be
 said over and over again.


 LOL. I would _hate_ to lose tree-threading. I wouldn't read the newsgroup
 any other way. I don't know how anyone keeps tracks of conversations in a
 sane manner without it. But I'm certainly not against having alternatives in
 the forum so that users can choose which way works best for them. And folks
 using a newsgroup reader or an e-mail client to view the newsgroup have the
 same choice.

 - Jonathan M Davis


For me, the jury is still out. Originally I was a big fan of tree 
threading (together with being able to manually manage read/unread 
status of posts, like you do in Thunderbird) . I agree that following 
large conversations without it can become very tricky.

But I also agree it makes it harder to follow the chronological order, 
and somethings things are mentioned in one post that were already 
mentioned "elsewhere" in the tree, where "elsewhere" is a more 
complicated relation because there is no linearity.

That said, I think modern forum software like Discourse strike a good 
balance with linear threads. One key feature being the ability to spawn 
off a new thread from an existing one. This actually fixes two issues at 
once. One is it actually makes general thread size smaller, making it 
easier to follow a whole thread linearly. Second it features built-in 
support to creating an new topic that spawns from a previous discussion. 
In NNTP you can rename the title, but it's a bit of hack, different 
clients handle it differently, etc.


-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 8:45 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 That said, I think modern forum software like Discourse strike a good balance
 with linear threads. One key feature being the ability to spawn off a new
thread
 from an existing one. This actually fixes two issues at once. One is it
actually
 makes general thread size smaller, making it easier to follow a whole thread
 linearly. Second it features built-in support to creating an new topic that
 spawns from a previous discussion. In NNTP you can rename the title, but it's a
 bit of hack, different clients handle it differently, etc.


DFeed handles that rather well. See this thread as a fine example:

   http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1gaq$1o1g$1 digitalmars.com

You may argue that there are better ways to present this, but it's pretty clear 
that NNTP is not holding this back.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 19:52, Walter Bright wrote:

 DFeed handles that rather well. See this thread as a fine example:

 http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1gaq$1o1g$1 digitalmars.com

 You may argue that there are better ways to present this, but it's
 pretty clear that NNTP is not holding this back.


I disagree. Quoting myself, it doesn't have the:
" Ability to spawn a new topic from an existing one. This is not 
something that is supported currently. Merely renaming the title doesn't 
suffice: the sub-topic still remains part of the parent thread/topic. So 
there is noise around, you can't simply follow the sub-topic, whilst 
ignoring the rest of the thread, because they are not separate. "

This means people can miss an interesting discussion - like this 
subtopic, or the "D vs Rust mindset" discussion - merely by dismissing 
the parent thread - "Females in the community." in this case, which was 
an incredibly silly discussion to start with).

Even if DFeed were to handle it well, it's just one client. Others would 
likely not handled it the same way. One of the supposed advantages of 
NNTP (multiple clients) can also be a shortcoming, because there is no 
consistent UI. And consistency is important for behaviors or aspects 
that should be preserved for any user, and not left for individual 
preference (like spawning a new topic separately).

For example, someone on Thunderbird might open this thread, "Females in 
the community.", see it's garbage talk, and press "T" which marks the 
whole thread as read, and skips to the next one. The scrolling here 
would likely make the user not notice any sub-threads.


-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 08:14:07AM -0700, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On Thursday, March 24, 2016 14:01:04 Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Note the lack of tree threading


 That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've
 ever seen and I wish it would die completely.

 Thankfully, we can turn it off here, but it still kinda ruins
 things because it isolates replies, so the same thing tends to be
 said over and over again.


 
 LOL. I would _hate_ to lose tree-threading. I wouldn't read the
 newsgroup any other way. I don't know how anyone keeps tracks of
 conversations in a sane manner without it. But I'm certainly not
 against having alternatives in the forum so that users can choose
 which way works best for them. And folks using a newsgroup reader or
 an e-mail client to view the newsgroup have the same choice.


[...]

Whoa. This is the first time I've heard someone vote *against* tree
threading.  The entire reason I've avoided web-based email clients like
the plague is because I've yet to see one that handles tree threading
correctly, and tree threading is the only way (at least for me!) to keep
track of gigantic discussion threads that span thousands of posts.  As
for repetitiveness, it works pretty well if people actually use software
that does proper threading so that they can reply to individual
sub-threads rather than clump all replies in a single post, which
requires a DAG, but DAGs are impractical because past a certain point,
the graph starts looking like somebody's hair on a bad day and it's just
impossible to sort out which reply came from where. Trees are somewhat
limited in what can be represented, but large trees are much more
manageable than large DAGs.

On the other hand, perhaps this explains why people here start looking a
little lost when threads grow past 500 posts or so. Without proper tree
threading there's simply no way anyone can keep track of things past
that point.


T

-- 
I think Debian's doing something wrong, `apt-get install pesticide', doesn't
seem to remove the bugs on my system! -- Mike Dresser



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 15:26:09 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 The entire reason I've avoided web-based email clients like the 
 plague is because I've yet to see one that handles tree 
 threading correctly


Oh, I also avoid web-based email clients... though one of the 
biggest PROBLEMS I have with gmail is that it attempts to thread 
things automatically!

I just want everything presented to me, in chronological order. 
My brain has a storage capacity of more than 800 quadrillion bits 
and a total linear computation speed of 60 trillion operations 
per second. It is equipped with sophisticated 
hardware-accelerated pattern recognition algorithms capable of 
multi-dimensional spacial processing as well as state-of-the-art 
natural language handling.

Most attempts at computer assistance do little beyond hindering 
the operation of my superior neural net. Just feed me the data!


 Without proper tree threading there's simply no way anyone can 
 keep track of things past that point.


I at least skim *every* post made in the ng, usually close to 
real time as they come in. The content is then digested and 
indexed in my brain for future use (and the undigested data is 
still available through the computer and my local client can look 
it up by date, poster, content, or yes, the threading headers all 
with ease)

I often see people complain about how they find 50 emails a day 
to be completely unmanageable. I've handled an average of about 
350 per day, every day, for about six years now. It takes about 
10% of my work day, which isn't insignificant, but being aware of 
what's going on - sometimes, one person's problem today is my 
answer tomorrow - brings benefits in excess of the cost.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 03:50:31PM +0000, Adam D. Ruppe via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 15:26:09 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

The entire reason I've avoided web-based email clients like the
plague is because I've yet to see one that handles tree threading
correctly


 
 Oh, I also avoid web-based email clients... though one of the biggest
 PROBLEMS I have with gmail is that it attempts to thread things
 automatically!


I agree that trying to thread things automatically where there is
actually no relation is extremely annoying.  I have yet to find "smart"
software that doesn't do something really dumb.



 I just want everything presented to me, in chronological order. My
 brain has a storage capacity of more than 800 quadrillion bits and a
 total linear computation speed of 60 trillion operations per second.
 It is equipped with sophisticated hardware-accelerated pattern
 recognition algorithms capable of multi-dimensional spacial processing
 as well as state-of-the-art natural language handling.
 
 Most attempts at computer assistance do little beyond hindering the
 operation of my superior neural net. Just feed me the data!


That's good for you. Me, I don't have the time/energy to devote all of
the processing power of my brain just to keep up with a single forum --
I am subscribed to many high-volume mailing lists, and I simply can't
keep up with *all* of it on top of all the other (arguably more
important!) things in my life.  Tree threading lets me kill entire 500+
post threads in one shot (or any subtree thereof, depending on which
part of the conversation is pertinent to me), which is a lifesaver in
this age of information overload.  One has to pick his battles, and I
choose to only read stuff that *might* be pertinent to my interests,
rather than wade through *everything*, especially when a lot of it
doesn't even concern me (most of this thread, for example, of which I've
only read 1% because, frankly, 90% of it was (probably) off-topic
drivel).



Without proper tree threading there's simply no way anyone can keep
track of things past that point.


 
 I at least skim *every* post made in the ng, usually close to real
 time as they come in. The content is then digested and indexed in my
 brain for future use (and the undigested data is still available
 through the computer and my local client can look it up by date,
 poster, content, or yes, the threading headers all with ease)
 
 I often see people complain about how they find 50 emails a day to be
 completely unmanageable.


At one point, I was dealing with 4-digit numbers of emails a day.
Tree-threading makes it possible to retain my sanity. :-P  (Fortunately,
I've reduced my high-volume subscriptions since -- by a lot.)  I guess
your mental capabilities exceed mine, but I'm pretty sure that at some
point, maybe around the 1000+/day mark or somewhere thereabouts, even
you would have to concede that some discussion threads really ought to
be outright ignored because they eat up time and energy for negligible
gain.



 I've handled an average of about 350 per day, every day, for about six
 years now. It takes about 10% of my work day, which isn't
 insignificant, but being aware of what's going on - sometimes, one
 person's problem today is my answer tomorrow - brings benefits in
 excess of the cost.


Unfortunately, I don't have 10% of my day to devote to wading through
email. There are far more important things in my life than that!


T

-- 
I don't trust computers, I've spent too long programming to think that they can
get anything right. -- James Miller



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 7:01 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 That's a feature. Tree threading is one of the worst things I've ever seen and
I
 wish it would die completely.


Haha, reddit would be unusable without tree threading.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:48:42 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Haha, reddit would be unusable without tree threading.


Reddit IS unusable BECAUSE of its tree threading.


It is virtually impossible to find new posts on Reddit. At least 
with NNTP your client will do things like bold the unread ones 
and offer a jump to functionality. Reddit lacks even that, making 
it pure trash and impossible to follow.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 1:08 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:48:42 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Haha, reddit would be unusable without tree threading.


 Reddit IS unusable BECAUSE of its tree threading.


 It is virtually impossible to find new posts on Reddit. At least with NNTP your
 client will do things like bold the unread ones and offer a jump to
 functionality. Reddit lacks even that, making it pure trash and impossible to
 follow.


I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is impractical to 
visit a thread and look for what's new since you looked at it last time.



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Jack Stouffer <jack jackstouffer.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:25:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is 
 impractical to visit a thread and look for what's new since you 
 looked at it last time.


You have to pay money for that feature.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 08:30:39PM +0000, Jack Stouffer via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:25:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is
impractical to visit a thread and look for what's new since you
looked at it last time.


 
 You have to pay money for that feature.


While it comes for free on threaded mail/nntp readers.


T

-- 
If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one? -- Abraham Lincoln



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent  jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 20:25:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 I agree that Reddit has its problems, foremost of which it is 
 impractical to visit a thread and look for what's new since you 
 looked at it last time.


Sorry to bump the thread, but I found some options that make this 
a little more pleasant.

For chrome:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-new-comments-highl/ajdilinnnkbmpoegibgacadjlblmpjad?hl=en

For firefox (this is buggy, but follow the explanation of how to 
get it working properly in the reviews):
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cozy-reddit/

If you don't mind paying, reddit gold:
https://www.reddit.com/gold/about/



 Apr 06 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually 
 posting it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.


That's actually an interesting idea.

Some places on the web (e.g. StackOverflow comments) only allow 
you to edit your posts/comments a few minutes after posting them, 
so a design such as the following would hopefully be less alien:

1. Upon posting from the web interface, save the post and make it 
immediately viewable to all web interface users (which is the 
majority).
2. Allow the user to edit or delete their post during a grace 
period (e.g. 5 minutes).
3. Once the grace period expires, send the final version off to 
NNTP/mailing lists.

Could be configurable (on by default), too. Would require some 
internal restructuring, and adding additional validation for 
things currently taken care of by the NNTP server, but seems 
certainly doable.



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent  "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 03:01:23PM +0000, Vladimir Panteleev via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting
it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.


 
 That's actually an interesting idea.
 
 Some places on the web (e.g. StackOverflow comments) only allow you to
 edit your posts/comments a few minutes after posting them, so a design
 such as the following would hopefully be less alien:


[...]

I like this idea too, even though I only use the mailing list, not the
forum web interface. (If anything, it should at least reduce the number
of complaints about posts not being editable, that seems to crop up
every few months.)

I'm also on another (non-NNTP) forum where posts can only be edited up
to 15 minutes after the initial post, and it has worked very well so
far. I think anywhere from 5-15 minutes or thereabouts should be a
reasonably good default.


T

-- 
Life is complex. It consists of real and imaginary parts. -- YHL



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 11:01 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:16:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting
 it for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.


 That's actually an interesting idea.

 Some places on the web (e.g. StackOverflow comments) only allow you to
 edit your posts/comments a few minutes after posting them, so a design
 such as the following would hopefully be less alien:

 1. Upon posting from the web interface, save the post and make it
 immediately viewable to all web interface users (which is the majority).
 2. Allow the user to edit or delete their post during a grace period
 (e.g. 5 minutes).
 3. Once the grace period expires, send the final version off to
 NNTP/mailing lists.

 Could be configurable (on by default), too. Would require some internal
 restructuring, and adding additional validation for things currently
 taken care of by the NNTP server, but seems certainly doable.


FWIW I like to post and just see it there. On the rare occasions I make 
a mistake that could make my post misunderstood I cancel the message 
within seconds and repost it with the fix. (BTW would be nice to have 
the ability to cancel a message from the Web interface.) If we allow 
post editing we should allow viewing the history. Generally it's not 
something I've been missing. -- Andrei



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 17:55:18 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 FWIW I like to post and just see it there. On the rare 
 occasions I make a mistake that could make my post 
 misunderstood I cancel the message within seconds and repost it 
 with the fix. (BTW would be nice to have the ability to cancel 
 a message from the Web interface.) If we allow post editing we 
 should allow viewing the history. Generally it's not something 
 I've been missing. -- Andrei


NNTP cancellation is something I've thought about. It has issues:

1. There is no authentication and restrictions on what you can 
cancel. The forum would need to implement its own (e.g. by 
inserting a digest into a header that can only be validated 
through a secret cookie). I'm also worried that by exposing this 
feature, I'll bring more attention to its existence, which will 
increase the likelihood of its abuse - and even detecting the 
abuse may not be easy.

2. It does not propagate. If an NNTP client will cancel a 
message, it will still be visible on the forum. DFeed needs to 
request the full message list from the server to know which 
messages are gone (it does this every few days or so). And, of 
course, mailing list users will get it anyway, and it will also 
be stored on the mailing list archives browsable from the web.



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 8:10 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 2. It does not propagate. If an NNTP client will cancel a message, it will
still
 be visible on the forum. DFeed needs to request the full message list from the
 server to know which messages are gone (it does this every few days or so).
And,
 of course, mailing list users will get it anyway, and it will also be stored on
 the mailing list archives browsable from the web.


The "Archives" I generate periodically rsync themselves against the messages on 
the server, so deleted messages eventually disappear from that.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent  Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 11:10 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 NNTP cancellation is something I've thought about. It has issues:


Thought so. -- Andrei



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 1:41 AM, Mike Parker wrote:

 I'm not knocking Vladimir's software. I ditched my newsreader some
 time ago and
 use the web interface exclusively now. Much more convenient. We can
 debate the
 usefulness of specific forum features that are out there in the wild
 these days,
 but the main issue is that the most basic features (like editing and
 deleting
 posts) are not practical when the central database belongs to the NNTP
 server.


 Ironically, I've used various "modern" forum software that didn't allow
 post editing, either. Post editing has its downside, as well. Replies to
 a post may no longer make sense if it was altered.

 One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting it
 for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.


Post editing can also be restricted by a time limit in web forum 
software. In any case, in a community like this, you'd expect that 
nearly all edits would be minor edits, that would not change the meaning 
of the original post, but just clarify it (or fix errors).

Alternatively, some software allows seeing the edit history of a post, 
so there is always that as a fallback if someone where to edit 
inappropriately. In particular Discourse supports that (which is the 
forum software used by Rust, and also an alternative Go forum - 
https://forum.golangbridge.org/ )



 I'm not coming at this from a personal perspective, but from that of a
 new D
 user who wasn't necessarily around during the height of the newsgroup
 craze.
 More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to edit or
 delete
 their posts. We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking
 threads as
 important or useful. These are the sorts of thing that people *expect*
 today,
 whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one more
 thing about
 the D community that doesn't jibe with expectations, like the way the
 web site
 looked before the revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself,
 just an
 annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a part of
 the whole
 it's one more point of complaint. One that could be easily resolved.


 I've used a lot of other forum software on the web, and most of them
 have maddening gaps in their feature set, and have the look/feel of
 being written by dilettantes as their first project.


I don't care about how many crap web forum software is out there, I only 
care about the good ones. The point of using modern forum software is 
not to just *any* software out there that just happened to be written 
recently.

In particular, have you tried Discourse?


 For example, take a look at the comments for this article:


 http://mynorthwest.com/813/2938339/Should-President-Obama-have-come-right-home-after-the-attacks-in-Brussels


 Note the lack of tree threading, and the very low information density.

 BTW, the distributed nature of NNTP I regard as a major asset. The
 aggregate of the forum posts are an immense resource for D, and having
 it in a central location in a proprietary format is pretty risky.


Discourse is free & open: http://www.discourse.org/ , so there are none 
of those issues.


 Also, the C++ illuminati communicate via a mailing list
 (lists.isocpp.org), pretty much equivalent to NNTP. So does Linux. We
 aren't really out of step with serious developers. Are they old codgers,
 or are they on to something overlooked by others? Another thing I like
 about this approach is that posts are restricted to text rather than
 emoji and pictures and pretty styling - i.e. actual content.


Are they old codgers? Y...yes?
Let me rephrase that, are you really asking if the C++ community can be 
taken *face-value* as example of modern practices? No, they can't. That 
is not to say there aren't brilliant developers there, there sure are. 
That isn't to say either that there aren't individual C++ coders who 
understand modern practices quite well. But to take the ideology of the 
community and C++ as examples of modern technology and practices... 
hell, no.

But more importantly, you have to take legacy considerations into 
account. There's massive history in the newsgroups, people are used to 
it, people are used to their NNTP clients, people have workflows around 
it, etc.

It's a very different question to ask if one should use NNTP or a forum 
software for a *new* community, than to change an existing community to 
a different forum system. And C++ is all about legacy, compatibility, 
dinosaurs...



 It's hard to find any actual content buried in all the noise:

    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=112797.0


*sigh* You can't compare a forum community (and a forum software) for 
essentially an *entertainment* hobby, to a forum community (and a forum 
software) built for *technical*, *professional* discussion.

In particular there are no post signatures in Discourse (or they are 
disabled in the Discourse forums I visit). There are emojis, though.💖


  no threading,


Of all these, I agree (tree) threading can be an issue (see my OP). 
However, ultimately if there are shortcomings in web forum software 
these *can* be addressed, eventually.

But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not in 
a proper way.
-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 9:34 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Alternatively, some software allows seeing the edit history of a post, so there
 is always that as a fallback if someone where to edit inappropriately.


Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose of being able to 
edit it.

(Sometimes people email me asking me to delete their posts, which I will do. Of 
course, I can only delete them on the server. The NNTP posts that already went 
out are not fixable.)



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent  tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:59:24 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 9:34 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Alternatively, some software allows seeing the edit history of 
 a post, so there
 is always that as a fallback if someone where to edit 
 inappropriately.


 Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose 
 of being able to edit it.


In my opinion, the right purpose of post editing is to improve 
clarity, or - more rarely - as a way of apologizing for something 
that should never have been said. (Anyone interacting with me on 
GitHub should be aware that I frequently edit my posts there, 
especially within the first hour or so.)

In both cases, making the edit history public is appropriate 
because it protects those who responded to the original bad 
message from being made to look foolish/unreasonable, while still 
allowing people to correct their mistakes.

"Deleting" posts should normally be accomplished simply by 
editing the message to replace the body with "[message 
retracted]" or something along those lines.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 03:59 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose of being
 able to edit it.


That's not right. You can't change history, otherwise the threading of 
discussion will be impossible to follow. Look at how Facebook does it. 
-- Andrei



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 25/03/2016 04:09, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 03/24/2016 03:59 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Having public display of the edit history defeats the purpose of being
 able to edit it.




Discourse also supports properly deleting posts. Although it usually 
requires admin approval, and is usually reserved for spam, disturbing 
content, duplicated posts, stuff like that. It's not meant for 
retracting comments the poster simply later regrets.


 That's not right. You can't change history, otherwise the threading of
 discussion will be impossible to follow. Look at how Facebook does it.
 -- Andrei


Agreed. Furthermore on an ethical note I don't think people should 
delete comments they later regret. If one does a stupid or rude post, 
they should pay the price for being stupid or rude. If they regret it, 
and want to apologize for it, or otherwise retract some comments, that's 
fine: apologize or retract your comments *in a follow-up post*. But 
don't delete the original post, not only it can be confusing for people 
following that, I think it's cowardly too.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 9:34 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 BTW, the distributed nature of NNTP I regard as a major asset. The
 aggregate of the forum posts are an immense resource for D, and having
 it in a central location in a proprietary format is pretty risky.


 Discourse is free & open: http://www.discourse.org/ , so there are none of
those
 issues.


Not what I meant.

1. I meant the message content is distributed, and so is resistant to loss. I 
have a current copy on my disk, for example.

2. Even if the file format is embedded in free and open software, someone would 
have to write code to view it. NNTP can be viewed by any text editor. It's very 
resistant to becoming unreadable 20 years from now.



 But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not in a
 proper way.


The only shortcoming of NNTP that is not innate are editing/deleting posts, and:

1. this is of debatable merit

2. there are methods discussed here of having them short-term editable

and NNTP has innate advantages that are not easily dismissed:

1. The distributed nature of it (as discussed) makes it like git. In fact,
there 
are a lot of interesting parallels between github/git and DFeed/NNTP.

2. Different people have different preferences - NNTP clients are quite
diverse. 
Forum software - one size fits all.

3. NNTP clients are available everywhere (although the ones on mobile devices 
stink).



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 20:15, Walter Bright wrote:

 But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not
 in a
 proper way.


 The only shortcoming of NNTP that is not innate are editing/deleting
 posts, and:


No, another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate is that it doesn't 
require an account / authentication : anyone can post without 
registering, emails accounts can be spoofed, etc.

You might argue that this is not a shortcoming, and ok, it's your 
opinion. But it is another aspect of NNTP that is *innate and can't be 
fixed*.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



  parent  Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com>  writes:


On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 17:03:22 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 But it is another aspect of NNTP that is *innate and can't be 
 fixed*.


It'd be pretty easy to add digital signatures (some users already 
do it) and check them if you were really concerned about it. And 
that'd be more secure than the typical password system.



 Mar 25 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 20:15, Walter Bright wrote:

 But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not
 in a
 proper way.


 The only shortcoming of NNTP that is not innate are editing/deleting
 posts, and:


No, there is another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate: it doesn't 
require an account / authentication, anyone can post without 
registering, emails accounts can be spoofed, etc.

You might argue that this is not a shortcoming, and ok, that's 
subjective. It is a shortcoming for me. But regardless, it is at the 
very another *aspect* of NNTP that is *innate and can't be fixed*.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/25/2016 10:05 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 No, there is another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate: it doesn't require an
 account / authentication, anyone can post without registering, emails accounts
 can be spoofed, etc.


It's actually pretty easy to add a field with a crypto hash in it, and have the 
NNTP server reject postings without the hash, and then supply the hash only
with 
validated account creation.

There's a scheme out there that does something like this for PGP key signing.



 You might argue that this is not a shortcoming, and ok, that's subjective. It
is
 a shortcoming for me.


I agree that it is subjective. As far as the D forums go, I think it's a
feature 
that people can post without setting up an account. In today's panopticon, it's 
nice to have a few islands here and there where people can express an honest 
opinion without being tracked, cataloged, data-mined, etc.

Sure, we get a few drive-by rogue and spam postings, but it's small enough to
be 
manageable.

(I have HUNDREDS of accounts here and there. It's just tiresome to set up a new 
one every time I visit a new site.)



 Mar 25 2016



  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 25/03/2016 19:44, Walter Bright wrote:

 No, there is another shortcoming of NNTP that is innate: it doesn't
 require an
 account / authentication, anyone can post without registering, emails
 accounts
 can be spoofed, etc.


 It's actually pretty easy to add a field with a crypto hash in it, and
 have the NNTP server reject postings without the hash, and then supply
 the hash only with validated account creation.

 There's a scheme out there that does something like this for PGP key
 signing.


Yeah, but how many NNTP clients would support that? Certainly one could 
build this feature on top of NNTP, but then it would not be pure NNTP 
anymore, and I guess it would break many clients, no?

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/25/2016 5:57 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Yeah, but how many NNTP clients would support that? Certainly one could build
 this feature on top of NNTP, but then it would not be pure NNTP anymore,
 and I guess it would break many clients, no?


No, it wouldn't. The PGP signature doesn't break clients. They just ignore it 
(i.e. consider it part of the message body). You'd have the option of what 
client to use, and if you use DFeed, it could be set to not present
unregistered 
postings to you (a perq of registering yourself, you can customize the
settings).

In reply to your other message about starting new threads:

Again, it is not about NNTP, it is about how DFeed chooses to present the
thread.



 Mar 25 2016



  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 26/03/2016 01:18, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/25/2016 5:57 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Yeah, but how many NNTP clients would support that? Certainly one
 could build
 this feature on top of NNTP, but then it would not be pure NNTP anymore,
 and I guess it would break many clients, no?


 No, it wouldn't. The PGP signature doesn't break clients. They just
 ignore it (i.e. consider it part of the message body).


For reading posts, it wouldn't break clients, no. But what about writing 
messages with PGP signatures? If the client doesn't supported creating 
them automatically, it's too much of a pain the ass to do that manually.


 You'd have the
 option of what client to use, and if you use DFeed, it could be set to
 not present unregistered postings to you (a perq of registering
 yourself, you can customize the settings).


Oh, no, no, no. That's a broken system. If one were to add such a layer 
of only allowing registered postings, this would have to be enforced for 
all users, not on a per-user preference. Otherwise you'd have a 
two-layer forum that would get super confusing. What if a registered 
poster replies to a non-registered poster message? I'd still see such 
messages. Or what about people that I want to see their posts, but they 
didn't bother to register and post unregistered?

This is one of those things what would have to be a like a code 
formatting guidelines: it has to be the same for all developers in a 
project. It can't be like the choice of IDE/editor, which can be left to 
individual preference.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 30 2016



  parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/30/2016 5:31 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 For reading posts, it wouldn't break clients, no. But what about writing
 messages with PGP signatures? If the client doesn't supported creating them
 automatically, it's too much of a pain the ass to do that manually.


That's right. But you can use DFeed to post, and you're no worse off then with 
other forum software.


 You'd have the
 option of what client to use, and if you use DFeed, it could be set to
 not present unregistered postings to you (a perq of registering
 yourself, you can customize the settings).


 Oh, no, no, no. That's a broken system. If one were to add such a layer of only
 allowing registered postings, this would have to be enforced for all users, not
 on a per-user preference. Otherwise you'd have a two-layer forum that would get
 super confusing. What if a registered poster replies to a non-registered poster
 message? I'd still see such messages. Or what about people that I want to see
 their posts, but they didn't bother to register and post unregistered?

 This is one of those things what would have to be a like a code formatting
 guidelines: it has to be the same for all developers in a project. It can't be
 like the choice of IDE/editor, which can be left to individual preference.


I suppose it depends on how much seeing posts from unregistered users bothers
you.



 Mar 30 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to 
Rust. Yes, the forum software. Yes, this is not related to the language, 
nor with the toolchain, nor with actually developing code in either 
language. So it has a very, very small impact....

On the surface at least.

It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the mindset 
and attitude of the core D team: that there are several aspects there 
that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please don't take this as 
a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such. But:

Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. 
Compare with Rust's Discourse.

Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB 
still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.

Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare with 
Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team itself. 
(https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)

Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's 
forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend 
story. I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's 
a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2 
people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of something 
like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and used by 
many different organizations.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with 
 the mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are 
 several aspects there that I consider antiquated, or 
 narrow-minded. Please don't take this as a personal offense 
 Walter, it's not meant as such. But:


Sorry, but this is complete FUD.


 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another 
 (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's 
 Cargo.


Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't 
consider it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for 
it to stabilize. If you want to help, start with 
https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.


 Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. 
 Compare with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the 
 Mozilla team itself. 
 (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)


No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the 
resources for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to 
promote Visual D, for example - it's linked from the website, 
it's in the GitHub organization, it's in the installer, what more 
do you want? Unlike Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on 
things full-time.


 Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software 
 (Vladimir's forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars 
 vs. LLVM backend story.


No.


 I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and 
 it's a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's 
 the work of 1-2 people, it cannot stand against the 
 capabilities and polish of something like Discourse which is 
 developed by a much bigger team, and used by many different 
 organizations.


I take offense to that.

In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of 
Discourse's features by its nature, Discourse can never have some 
of forum.dlang.org features. The Discourse's team's priorities 
are different (for example, they put much less emphasis on 
responsiveness, resource usage, interoperability, or multiple 
forms of presentation).

Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent  Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 01:07 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the
 mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several
 aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please
 don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such.
 But:


 Sorry, but this is complete FUD.


 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.


 Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't consider
 it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for it to
 stabilize. If you want to help, start with
 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.


 Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare
 with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team
 itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)


 No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the resources
 for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to promote Visual D,
 for example - it's linked from the website, it's in the GitHub
 organization, it's in the installer, what more do you want? Unlike
 Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on things full-time.


 Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's
 forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend
 story.


 No.


 I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a
 really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2
 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of
 something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and
 used by many different organizations.


 I take offense to that.

 In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of Discourse's
 features by its nature, Discourse can never have some of forum.dlang.org
 features. The Discourse's team's priorities are different (for example,
 they put much less emphasis on responsiveness, resource usage,
 interoperability, or multiple forms of presentation).

 Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.


Many thanks Vladimir for a very good post. Last part made me smile 
because it reminded me of the many arguments constructed around "nobody 
can compete with IBM/Microsoft/ICEs/taxis/etc because they have market 
share/money/larger teams/lobbying power/etc" -- Andrei



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 10:07 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.


A couple things I think would improve the usefulness:

1. Consider the thread view:

http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1ff7$1mui$1 digitalmars.com

and compare with:

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Females_in_the_community._282176.html

The latter contains the first line of the non-quoted text in the message. (I 
swiped this idea from slashdot). This is real nice because with a lot of 
messages in a thread, it can give a clue which one to click on. The (n/m) thing 
is n=quoted lines, m = total lines, so one can not bother with "quote the whole 
message and add +1 at the end" style posts.


2. Support markdown (not html). The great thing about markdown is it'll still 
look fine in other NNTP readers.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:45:51 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/24/2016 10:07 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.


 A couple things I think would improve the usefulness:

 1. Consider the thread view:

 http://forum.dlang.org/post/nd1ff7$1mui$1 digitalmars.com

 and compare with:

 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Females_in_the_community._282176.html

 The latter contains the first line of the non-quoted text in 
 the message. (I swiped this idea from slashdot). This is real 
 nice because with a lot of messages in a thread, it can give a 
 clue which one to click on. The (n/m) thing is n=quoted lines, 
 m = total lines, so one can not bother with "quote the whole 
 message and add +1 at the end" style posts.


 2. Support markdown (not html). The great thing about markdown 
 is it'll still look fine in other NNTP readers.


Added to my list.

I actually didn't expect that you'd be in favor of Markdown, 
since you were against even allowing users to view HTML message 
parts. Previously I had turned down suggestions to integrate 
Markdown on interoperability concerns, but I guess now that the 
majority of posters use the forum interface it's less of an issue:

https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/pull/39#issuecomment-61725661



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/25/2016 12:08 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 Added to my list.


Also: syntax coloring for D code. It would be rad. -- Andrei



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent  deadalnix <deadalnix gmail.com>  writes:


On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 04:12:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 12:08 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 Added to my list.


 Also: syntax coloring for D code. It would be rad. -- Andrei


I love rad :)



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent  Paolo Invernizzi <paolo.invernizzi no.address>  writes:


On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 04:12:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 03/25/2016 12:08 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 Added to my list.


 Also: syntax coloring for D code. It would be rad. -- Andrei


Yeeeeeh! ;-P

/P



 Mar 25 2016



prev sibling  parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 9:08 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 I actually didn't expect that you'd be in favor of Markdown, since you were
 against even allowing users to view HTML message parts.


I changed my mind to be in favor of Markdown, but I still oppose viewing the 
HTML parts. For one thing, having pictures, javascript, remote content, etc., 
does not add value in a programming forum, it consumes bandwidth, and is a 
security risk.

Markdown should provide all we need. Andrei has suggested D code highlighting, 
which is a good idea.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 17:07, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the
 mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several
 aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please
 don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such.
 But:


 Sorry, but this is complete FUD.


 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.


 Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't consider
 it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for it to
 stabilize. If you want to help, start with
 https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.


What does it meant for DUB to be "ready"? Does it need to be a "1.0" 
release? To have API, command line, and file formats all stabilized?

I'm not sure that's necessary. As long as DUB is popular and usable (and 
it is already), it could already do well to be included in the distro. 
Being "official" doesn't have to mean ready and finished!

Cargo is still version 0.7, despite Rust itself being 1.6 currently. So 
it's still "beta", but that didn't preclude it from being included.


Mind one important thing though, what I'm looking for is not just merely 
DUB being included in the official D distribution. Having one less 
package to download is not what's important here. What's significant is 
DUB becoming "official", that is, the core D team should be familiar 
with it, use it when appropriate, and, if something were to happen to 
Sonke (even simply him not wanting to work on DUB anymore), there should 
be a commitment from the core D team to work on DUB themselves on such 
scenario. This is what I mean when I talks about understanding the 
importance of package managers.



 Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare
 with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team
 itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)


 No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the resources
 for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to promote Visual D,
 for example - it's linked from the website, it's in the GitHub
 organization, it's in the installer, what more do you want? Unlike
 Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on things full-time.


First, I don't think promoting a single IDE is not a good idea. But hey, 
I'm the main developer of DDT, so maybe I'm biased!... ;)

More importantly, this has nothing to do with promoting any set of IDEs. 
The D users are smart enough, they can find the list of IDEs that are 
available for their tastes.

What I'm talking about is making IDE's *better*. I'm talking about doing 
work in tools like DCD ( https://github.com/Hackerpilot/DCD ) - which 
are IDE/editor agnostic anyway. Or even working in DMD or DUB 
functionality that is mainly of use to IDEs/editors.

Now, I can't blame Walter and Andrei for not having the same resources 
as Mozilla, but that's not what I did. What I was saying is that the 
relative importance that Walter and Andrei give to IDE tools is not on 
the same level as what the core Rust team gives. And that I can blame on 
them.

Let's look at an interesting example: the Nim language. It's a fairly 
small community, perhaps comparable to D, and also not backed by any 
large corporation, or any large team. It's just one or two main 
developers. Yet they  found time to support IDE tooling in the core 
toolchain: http://nim-lang.org/docs/idetools.html
No corporate support, AFAIK.


Even better, let me offer a thought experiment here. Imagine that Walter 
were offered a developer for free, to work for 1 year on any D related 
work that Walter chooses (and the developer would work competently on 
whichever assignment he was placed). Would Walter assign that developer 
to be working in IDE tools? Hell no. He'd be working on Phobos, or some 
GC issues, or maybe fixing DMD bugs, etc. Now what about 2 developers? 
And 3 and so ? How many would there need to be until a developer would 
be assigned to work on DCD or a similar tool? More than the size of the 
Rust team for sure.

TL;DR:
Here's the bottomline:
Does Walter even use any IDE tooling? Does he, for example, use DCD when 
developing in D? Does he use any IDE or IDE tooling when working with 
C/C++ ? If he doesn't use them, how would he ever rate this aspect 
*truly* important (not just important because other people like it)...



 Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's
 forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend
 story.


 No.


Perhaps you're right... the gap between the size of the DM backend team 
and the LLVM backend team is much, much more massive.


 I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a
 really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2
 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of
 something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and
 used by many different organizations.


 I take offense to that.

 In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of Discourse's
 features by its nature, Discourse can never have some of forum.dlang.org
 features. The Discourse's team's priorities are different (for example,
 they put much less emphasis on responsiveness, resource usage,
 interoperability, or multiple forms of presentation).


With regards to interoperability, the design goals of forum.dlang.org 
and Discourse are quite different, so they can't really be compared. I 
can agree with that. But in any case I was more focusing in polish and 
functionality in the area of user interface, since that is more amenable 
to being compared. And it's the most important aspect of the software.

You say forum.dlang.org is focused on multiple forms of presentation, 
but I'd rather have one that works really well, than multiple ones that 
aren't that great. (see further ahead for the list of missing features).

As for responsiveness, Discourse works pretty responsively to me. Same 
with resource usage. Unless you meant resource usage in the server. I'm 
afraid I'm at a disadvantage here, I'm not familiar with backend 
details, so I can't really comment on those.



 Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.


LOL... I can give plenty:


* password / username recovery functionality.
* Being able to register with some pre-existing account (like Github), 
so it's one less login to remember.
* Profile functionality, so that people can put an blog/twitter/github 
URL in profile. (better than using signatures)

* Viewing topics that have new content, whilst being able to 
ignore/unwatch individual topics.

* Ability to spawn a new topic from an existing one. This is not 
something that is supported currently. Merely renaming the title doesn't 
do this - the sub-topic still remains part of the parent thread/topic. 
So there is noise around, you can't simply follow the sub-topic, whilst 
ignoring the rest of the thread, because they are not separate.

* The ability to flag posts for moderation.

* Editing posts, with the ability to view edit history.

* Auto-Scroll or some way to view an entire topic without having to 
click on "next page".
  * Alternatively, at least be able to set the number of posts per page 
to a large number, say 100.

* Having a link count for the links that people post. It's interesting.

* A nicer visual representation and interface for quoted text.

* Some basic markup support, like markdown.
* And with that, a markup editor.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



  parent  jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com>  writes:


On Friday, 25 March 2016 at 19:40:08 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 whilst being able to ignore/unwatch individual topics.


Yes, like this thread...



 Mar 25 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent  Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 9:46 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with
 Rust's Discourse.


For the curious, an example of Discourse:

https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/pre-rfc-cargo-target-features/3284

I don't see a whole lot here that can't be done with DFeed (and NNTP), there
are 
some good ideas, though I don't like its lack of nested threads.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Tobias=20M=C3=BCller?= <troplin bluewin.ch>  writes:


Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> wrote:

 On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


 
 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to 
 Rust. Yes, the forum software.


It's the exact opposite for me. I like Rust the language better than D but
the forum is much easier to follow than Discourse.

Discourse is using far to much resources/bandwidth. It's a PITA on my
(quite old) phone.
For the D forum I've a nice NNTP client that works like a charm.

Tobi



 Mar 25 2016



  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 25/03/2016 14:06, Tobias Müller wrote:

 Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> wrote:

 On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to
 Rust. Yes, the forum software.


 It's the exact opposite for me. I like Rust the language better than D but
 the forum is much easier to follow than Discourse.

 Discourse is using far to much resources/bandwidth. It's a PITA on my
 (quite old) phone.
 For the D forum I've a nice NNTP client that works like a charm.

 Tobi


What NNTP client do you use on your phone?

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/25/2016 5:36 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 What NNTP client do you use on your phone?


I know there's at least one available on the iphone, and of course you'd have 
the option to use the DFeed web interface.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/newstap-usenet-newsreader/id292410356



 Mar 25 2016



  parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Tobias=20M=C3=BCller?= <troplin bluewin.ch>  writes:


Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 3/25/2016 5:36 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 What NNTP client do you use on your phone?


 
 I know there's at least one available on the iphone, and of course you'd have 
 the option to use the DFeed web interface.
 
 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/newstap-usenet-newsreader/id292410356


Yes, exactly that one. Probably the most used app on my phone.



 Mar 26 2016



  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 26/03/2016 14:03, Tobias Müller wrote:

 Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 3/25/2016 5:36 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 What NNTP client do you use on your phone?


 I know there's at least one available on the iphone, and of course you'd have
 the option to use the DFeed web interface.

 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/newstap-usenet-newsreader/id292410356


 Yes, exactly that one. Probably the most used app on my phone.


Ok, fair enough. Personally I think reading newsgroups is too much of a 
complex task to be done on a phone (for starters typing is much harder, 
so you're kinda restricted to reading only, or typing short posts only).

But that's a valid use case, and I can see Discourse doesn't work that 
well there. Maybe it will get an app in not too distant future.


-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 30 2016



  parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/30/2016 5:22 AM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Ok, fair enough. Personally I think reading newsgroups is too much of a complex
 task to be done on a phone (for starters typing is much harder, so you're kinda
 restricted to reading only, or typing short posts only).


Having recently been absorbed by The Continuum, I acquired an iPhone. I found 
the predictive text input to be disconcerting at first, but it speeds up the 
typing a lot.

It's still annoying to type anything other than lower case alphas. I haven't 
tried it yet, but trying to enter code on an iPhone seems like it would be
hell. 
Maybe pairing it with a bluetooth keyboard will fix that.

But none of that would be improved with custom forum software.



 But that's a valid use case, and I can see Discourse doesn't work that well
 there. Maybe it will get an app in not too distant future.


That's the problem with custom forums instead of a standard protocol.

(I really like DFeed+NNTP, I guess you can tell!)



 Mar 30 2016



  parent  tsbockman <thomas.bockman gmail.com>  writes:


On Wednesday, 30 March 2016 at 19:22:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Having recently been absorbed by The Continuum, I acquired an 
 iPhone. I found the predictive text input to be disconcerting 
 at first, but it speeds up the typing a lot.

 It's still annoying to type anything other than lower case 
 alphas. I haven't tried it yet, but trying to enter code on an 
 iPhone seems like it would be hell. Maybe pairing it with a 
 bluetooth keyboard will fix that.


On Android, there is "Hacker's Keyboard": 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard

I don't know what the closest equivalent would be for iOS, but I 
bet there's something since Apple finally caved and added custom 
keyboard support in version 8.



 Mar 30 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to 
Rust. Yes, the forum software. Yes, this is not related to the language, 
nor with the toolchain, nor with actually developing code in either 
language. So it has a very, very small impact....

On the surface at least.

It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the mindset 
and attitude of the core D team: that there are several aspects there 
that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please don't take this as 
a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such. But:

Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. 
Compare with Rust's Discourse.

Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB 
still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.

Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare with 
Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team itself. 
(https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)


Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's 
forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend 
story. I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's 
a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2 
people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of something 
like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and used by 
many different organizations.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent  Guillaume Piolat <name.lastname gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:50:05 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another 
 (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's 
 Cargo.


I couldn't agree more (not about the forum which I think is not 
inferior to Discourse). The package manager is the single most 
critical advantage over older languages. The user interacts with 
it and not compilers.

The Rust team understood the significance of it and now they have 
one of the friendliest package manager out there. People rarely 
complain about cargo which is a feat in an rather despised 
category.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent  =?utf-8?B?U2HFoWEgSmFuacWha2E=?= <gour atmarama.com>  writes:


Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com> writes:


 Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that.
 Compare with Rust's Discourse.


Having ability to use nntp reader (Gnus) which I use for all my mailing
lists (via Gmane) is big 'pro' to choose, among many other things, D
over Rust.

NNTP provides automatic archive, powerful search ability on disposal, no
need to create sorting rules in order to keep my INBOX clean etc. No
need to say, that it means that one can use one's preferred editor to
compose *both* mail and news messages.

Moreover, when I had to use Discourse forum, I almost never used web UI,
but email interface...

Similar to the, now old & aging, web forums, I simply do not get what is
so great with things like Discourse forums in comparison with NNTP?

Similar wondering I have over popularity of Gitter/Slack over IRC...it
looks as these days it's fashion that one has to use special app for
each protocol used...


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on
sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to
 Rust.


It would be interesting to share a few thoughts about your experience 
with Rust if you have the time. Thanks! -- Andrei



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 17:50, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to
 Rust.


 It would be interesting to share a few thoughts about your experience
 with Rust if you have the time. Thanks! -- Andrei


If you're looking for an experience of someone who moved to writing a 
significant code base in Rust, that's not me. The most Rust code I've 
written so far is just this https://github.com/RustDT/Rainicorn - about 
1-2 man-weeks of effort. and I don't even consider myself proficient in 
Rust yet. (it's damn complicated to master!)

What I meant with my comment above is that I've moved my *time and 
effort investment* from D to Rust, but that doesn't mean the investment 
was writing D or Rust code directly. Rather it has more to do with 
projects like DDT (https://github.com/DDT-IDE/DDT), a project I've 
worked on and off since 2008, but fairly intensively in the last 4-5 few 
years. The DDT IDE has its own D parser and semantic engine (for code 
completion, find definition, etc.), that I built from scratch, and have 
been improving throughout these years. About a year ago or so, I was on 
the verge of massive improvements in this engine.

On one hand it would begin to support template instantiation (not 
perfectly, but enough to support code completion well enough in the 
majority of cases). Most of the groundwork necessary to have this 
analysis work in a lazy and incremental way - such that it would perform 
well under the interactive nature of an editor - was done already.

Another thing nearly completed was refactoring the engine out of Eclipse 
itself, so that it could be run externally, as a daemon process. In a 
way quite similar to DCD, Go oracle, RLS, etc. The groundwork for all 
this was done (also implementing caching, etc.). I think this would have 
been quite interesting because with the template improvements above, the 
DDT engine would have been fairly more advanced than DCD currently, and 
be available to other D IDEs/editors (especially since Eclipse is not 
that popular nowadays, and I'm the first admit, fairly so - Eclipse 
sucks in certain regards)

I was already a bit worried 2-3 years ago when Go came into the scene. 
It would definitely take a bit of mind-share out of D, but like you 
said, Go is not really a competitor to D, so it wasn't that significant...

But then queue Rust coming in to the scene, and essentially I rapidly 
lost my motivation to work in D-specific tools once I looked more into 
Rust.

DDT will still be maintained, but only because I've refactored the 
IDE-generic code into a language-agnostic framework, and built 
https://github.com/RustDT/RustDT and 
https://github.com/GoClipse/goclipse with it. But I won't be working on 
the DDT semantic engine anymore, as far as things stand.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 25 2016



  parent  Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/25/2016 01:42 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 On 24/03/2016 17:50, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to
 Rust.


 It would be interesting to share a few thoughts about your experience
 with Rust if you have the time. Thanks! -- Andrei


 If you're looking for an experience of someone who moved to writing a
 significant code base in Rust, that's not me. The most Rust code I've
 written so far is just this https://github.com/RustDT/Rainicorn - about
 1-2 man-weeks of effort. and I don't even consider myself proficient in
 Rust yet. (it's damn complicated to master!)

 What I meant with my comment above is that I've moved my *time and
 effort investment* from D to Rust, but that doesn't mean the investment
 was writing D or Rust code directly. Rather it has more to do with
 projects like DDT (https://github.com/DDT-IDE/DDT), a project I've
 worked on and off since 2008, but fairly intensively in the last 4-5 few
 years. The DDT IDE has its own D parser and semantic engine (for code
 completion, find definition, etc.), that I built from scratch, and have
 been improving throughout these years. About a year ago or so, I was on
 the verge of massive improvements in this engine.

 On one hand it would begin to support template instantiation (not
 perfectly, but enough to support code completion well enough in the
 majority of cases). Most of the groundwork necessary to have this
 analysis work in a lazy and incremental way - such that it would perform
 well under the interactive nature of an editor - was done already.

 Another thing nearly completed was refactoring the engine out of Eclipse
 itself, so that it could be run externally, as a daemon process. In a
 way quite similar to DCD, Go oracle, RLS, etc. The groundwork for all
 this was done (also implementing caching, etc.). I think this would have
 been quite interesting because with the template improvements above, the
 DDT engine would have been fairly more advanced than DCD currently, and
 be available to other D IDEs/editors (especially since Eclipse is not
 that popular nowadays, and I'm the first admit, fairly so - Eclipse
 sucks in certain regards)

 I was already a bit worried 2-3 years ago when Go came into the scene.
 It would definitely take a bit of mind-share out of D, but like you
 said, Go is not really a competitor to D, so it wasn't that significant...

 But then queue Rust coming in to the scene, and essentially I rapidly
 lost my motivation to work in D-specific tools once I looked more into
 Rust.

 DDT will still be maintained, but only because I've refactored the
 IDE-generic code into a language-agnostic framework, and built
 https://github.com/RustDT/RustDT and
 https://github.com/GoClipse/goclipse with it. But I won't be working on
 the DDT semantic engine anymore, as far as things stand.


Thanks for the account and good luck with the Rust experience. -- Andrei



 Mar 25 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply bachmeier <no spam.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:50:05 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another 
 (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's 
 Cargo.


Cargo is a good example of the problem with D. Not because of 
features (I don't know enough about either to compare) but 
because Cargo is documented like this:

http://doc.crates.io/

and Dub is documented like this:

http://code.dlang.org/getting_started

Dub is going to be the official package manager, everybody says 
we should use Dub, but there's no way I could tell someone I'm 
working with to use it. I won't touch it for that reason. It's 
not clear to me how others don't see this is a problem.



 Mar 24 2016



  parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 02:29 PM, bachmeier wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:50:05 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.


 Cargo is a good example of the problem with D. Not because of features
 (I don't know enough about either to compare) but because Cargo is
 documented like this:

 http://doc.crates.io/

 and Dub is documented like this:

 http://code.dlang.org/getting_started

 Dub is going to be the official package manager, everybody says we
 should use Dub, but there's no way I could tell someone I'm working with
 to use it. I won't touch it for that reason. It's not clear to me how
 others don't see this is a problem.


Could you please itemize the issues you found with dub? (FWIW I also 
sent a list to Sönke a while ago). -- Andrei



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  bachmeier <no spam.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 19:17:00 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:


 Could you please itemize the issues you found with dub? (FWIW I 
 also sent a list to Sönke a while ago). -- Andrei


I've will write up a response when I get time.



 Mar 28 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:

 We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


 Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that.
 Compare with Rust's Discourse.


The only thing wrong with NNTP is that it isn't trend/hipster-compliant. 
We have better things to deal with than endless Fire and Motion: 
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html



 Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
 still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.


Dub does need work. It's great for simpler projects and libs, but it's 
still next-to-useless for anything that JUST wants to participate in the 
package repository and uses a different build system (or even rdmd for 
that matter). There's some other issues as well. I've spent a lot of 
time and effort trying to fix that, but it's been an exhausting uphill 
battle, both technically and politically.



 Mar 28 2016



 next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/28/2016 8:00 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 We have
 better things to deal with than endless Fire and Motion:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html


That article is right on.

I discovered a long time ago that the secret to getting something done is to 
work on it every day, even if it's just for one minute. It's amazing how much 
gets done with just those minutes every day.



 Mar 28 2016



  parent  Shachar Shemesh <shachar weka.io>  writes:


On 29/03/16 07:36, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 3/28/2016 8:00 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 We have
 better things to deal with than endless Fire and Motion:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html




It's 7:40am here, and I just got to work. I stopped reading half way 
through, because I decided I need to actually work :-)


 That article is right on.

 I discovered a long time ago that the secret to getting something done
 is to work on it every day, even if it's just for one minute. It's
 amazing how much gets done with just those minutes every day.


That's my philosophy for learning to play the piano (which I've started 
about a year ago, at the ripe age of 42). So far, it's been working out 
great for me.

Shachar



 Mar 30 2016



prev sibling  parent  "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 11:00:15PM -0400, Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On 03/24/2016 12:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:

We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.


Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that.
Compare with Rust's Discourse.


 
 The only thing wrong with NNTP is that it isn't
 trend/hipster-compliant. We have better things to deal with than
 endless Fire and Motion:
 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html


[...]

+1, LOL.


T

-- 
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different
results.



 Mar 28 2016



prev sibling  parent  =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgTS4gQmVyZ2Vy?= <jeberger free.fr>  writes:


On 03/24/2016 05:50 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that.=20
 Compare with Rust's Discourse.
=20


	Funny, that's the main reason why I still lurk around the D forums even
though I haven't written a line of D in years, while I don't follow the
Rust forums even though I do most of my experimenting in Rust these days.=
=2E.

		Jerome
--=20
mailto:jeberger free.fr
http://jeberger.free.fr
Jabber: jeberger jabber.fr



 Mar 31 2016



prev sibling  parent reply Vladimir Panteleev <thecybershadow.lists gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 08:41:18 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 Yeah, I get that. But then we're maintaining two separate 
 databases. The database for the web interface should be the 
 primary, with all of the post meta-data stored together with 
 the posts themselves in one place. Then, people who pull the 
 posts in a newsreader after any edits have been made will at 
 least see the edited posts (still nothing to do for the mailing 
 list subscribers, I suppose).


NNTP users won't see the successive edits, though, and those who 
have their newsreader poll the server won't see them at all.


 It also allows much easier moderation, not relying on the news 
 server admin to delete spam and any posts that go beyond the 
 bounds of propriety.


I don't think we have an issue with moderation.

The spam filter could be a bit better, I suppose. Then again, we 
get MUCH less spam than any off-the-shelf forum software, since 
the spambot authors target them specifically, thus their spambots 
will find their way in much easier.


 More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to 
 edit or delete their posts.


Perhaps forum.dlang.org could make it clearer that once a post is 
sent, it is immutable.


 We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking threads 
 as important or useful.


I really think this is entirely unnecessary.

"Sticky" threads on typical web forums are used to post things 
such as FAQs or things people should read before posting. 
Essentially, in pretty much all cases, this feature is used as a 
poor way to change the website in general in order to bring some 
things to users' attention.

If the latter feature becomes required, since we have full 
control over the forum website's contents as a whole, we can look 
at how we can implement that feature properly (e.g. by adding a 
notice at the top of the thread list, or to the "create new 
thread" form, etc.)

Still, I think this feature is only really necessary for websites 
where "the forum is the website". We could just as well post 
important information to dlang.org.

If you have a specific need, we can discuss that.


 These are the sorts of thing that people *expect* today, 
 whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one 
 more thing about the D community that doesn't jibe with 
 expectations, like the way the web site looked before the 
 revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself, just an 
 annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a 
 part of the whole it's one more point of complaint. One that 
 could be easily resolved.


I really don't think that "mailing list phobia" is something we 
need to pay much attention to. Any way you turn it, it comes down 
to personal preference, and once you have configured your email 
client to deal with mailing lists in a nice way, there is not 
much left to object to. Ultimately, all serious open-source 
software projects do their development on mailing lists. The 
Linux kernel, Git, Gnome, KDE, LibreOffice, you name it. Can you 
imagine someone telling Linus Torvalds with a straight face that 
mailing lists are antiquated and it's time for him and his gang 
to get on with the times? The truth is that familiarity with 
mailing lists is simply necessary for any serious software 
developer.

Don't forget that forum.dlang.org has features that no other 
forum software can offer, features many people depend on. That 
includes its NNTP/email interoperability - one third of users 
communicating on this group don't do it via the forum. (If you 
think that one third is not too bad, don't forget that that 
includes most of the core team.) The ratio will probably be lower 
on "learn", but higher on the more technical groups.

The forum offers multiple view modes. Many people don't use the 
default one, which mimics typical web forums. One view mode I've 
added at Andrei's request, I think he will be unhappy to see it 
go.

The D forum also seems to be frequently lauded outside D's 
community for its performance, and people seem to often present 
in as an example of D's capabilities. It seems that any time 
someone posts a link to forum.dlang.org, someone mentions its 
unusually low response times.

I am continuously collecting (constructive) feedback about the 
forum. Last year I made an overhaul and implemented nearly all 
feature requests. If you have specific requests for improvement, 
please create a GitHub issue:

https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues

All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual serious 
proposal to replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse appears, 
it will face just as much, if not more, vocal disagreement. You 
can always create a poll or something if you wish - out of 
curiosity, since as mentioned above, you'll have a hard time 
convincing the people who are actually working on D to switch.



 Mar 24 2016



 next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>  writes:


On 3/24/2016 2:39 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 "Sticky" threads on typical web forums are used to post things such as FAQs or
 things people should read before posting. Essentially, in pretty much all
cases,
 this feature is used as a poor way to change the website in general in order to
 bring some things to users' attention.

 If the latter feature becomes required, since we have full control over the
 forum website's contents as a whole, we can look at how we can implement that
 feature properly (e.g. by adding a notice at the top of the thread list, or to
 the "create new thread" form, etc.)

 Still, I think this feature is only really necessary for websites where "the
 forum is the website". We could just as well post important information to
 dlang.org.


Such things belong on the wiki, not in the forum. I agree we don't need sticky 
threads, in fact, they'd be a nuisance as they raise pointless bikeshed 
controversies over whether something should be in the wiki or the stiki.



 I am continuously collecting (constructive) feedback about the forum. Last year
 I made an overhaul and implemented nearly all feature requests. If you have
 specific requests for improvement, please create a GitHub issue:

 https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues


Just to reiterate, you have done an awesome job with this and DFeed is a great 
resource and showcase for D.



 All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual serious proposal to
 replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse appears, it will face just as much,
 if not more, vocal disagreement. You can always create a poll or something if
 you wish - out of curiosity, since as mentioned above, you'll have a hard time
 convincing the people who are actually working on D to switch.


There's little to no chance of convincing me. Many of the things people
complain 
about with NNTP are features I prefer :-)



 Mar 24 2016



  parent  "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 03:36:42AM -0700, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]

 Many of the things people complain about with NNTP are features I
 prefer :-)


Same here.


T

-- 
What is Matter, what is Mind? Never Mind, it doesn't Matter.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent  Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:39:34 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:


 We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking 
 threads as important or useful.


 I really think this is entirely unnecessary.


Again, the benefit of such features are debatable. I'm personally 
ambivalent to anything other than the ability to edit or delete 
posts.



 I really don't think that "mailing list phobia" is something we 
 need to pay much attention to. Any way you turn it, it comes 
 down to personal preference, and once you have configured your 
 email client to deal with mailing lists in a nice way, there is 
 not much left to object to. Ultimately, all serious open-source 
 software projects do their development on mailing lists. The 
 Linux kernel, Git, Gnome, KDE, LibreOffice, you name it. Can 
 you imagine someone telling Linus Torvalds with a straight face 
 that mailing lists are antiquated and it's time for him and his 
 gang to get on with the times? The truth is that familiarity 
 with mailing lists is simply necessary for any serious software 
 developer.


I'm not talking about developer mailing lists. I'm a member of 
numerous mailing lists myself. The core developers and 
contributors can use mailing lists, NNTP, or smoke signals for 
all I care. Those who want to join such lists will and that's 
perfectly fine. What I'm talking about is building up a community 
of users.



 The D forum also seems to be frequently lauded outside D's 
 community for its performance, and people seem to often present 
 in as an example of D's capabilities. It seems that any time 
 someone posts a link to forum.dlang.org, someone mentions its 
 unusually low response times.


Yes, it's a great piece of work and I am by no means suggesting 
we replace it. It would serve as a great foundation for future 
features. I just don't think NNTP should be our primary means of 
community management.


 you'll have a hard time convincing the people who are actually 
 working on D to switch.


I knew that before I posted :) I'm not expecting any changes now. 
I'm just pointing out what I see as a potential future sore spot. 
That the web interface exists at all kind of supports my case. 
When I first came to D, most communication was done with a 
newsreader. The old Digital Mars web interface to the newsgroups 
was painful to use. The mailing list interface, IIRC, was added 
later. Your work on this forum software made it all imminently 
more useful and convenient, thanks to the features you enumerated 
above. It opened the door to more users being able to more easily 
come in and participate in discussions. I'm simply arguing that 
as the community grows, taking things to the next level will open 
the door even wider.

It's not something I feel passionately enough about to keep 
arguing for, though, so I'll drop it for now :)



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent  Joakim <dlang joakim.fea.st>  writes:


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 09:39:34 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 08:41:18 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

 We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking 
 threads as important or useful.


 I really think this is entirely unnecessary.

 "Sticky" threads on typical web forums are used to post things 
 such as FAQs or things people should read before posting.


I don't think he's talking about sticky placement, as much as 
some kind of tagging of threads.  Of course, that raises issues 
of how you surface those tagged threads and whether people will 
bother applying the tags.


 not much left to object to. Ultimately, all serious open-source 
 software projects do their development on mailing lists. The 
 Linux kernel, Git, Gnome, KDE, LibreOffice, you name it. Can 
 you imagine someone telling Linus Torvalds with a straight face 
 that mailing lists are antiquated and it's time for him and his 
 gang to get on with the times?


Not only can I imagine it, I would say it to his face.  Mailing 
lists were incredibly outdated back when I first encountered them 
decades ago, let alone today, which is why I have never used them.


 The truth is that familiarity with mailing lists is simply 
 necessary for any serious software developer.


Not really, in fact, you can easily tell which dev teams are 
ancient by the fact that they still use a mailing list as the 
main form of communication.

Now, there are certainly benefits to SMTP/NNTP that centralized 
forums don't have, no question, and a lot of web forum software 
is ridiculously broken and even worse than a mailing list.  But 
you could do a lot better than a mailing list, it's just rarely 
done.  I though Apache Wave had some interesting ideas on 
collaboration, though I never tried it, so I can't say if they 
pulled it off.


 Don't forget that forum.dlang.org has features that no other 
 forum software can offer, features many people depend on. That 
 includes its NNTP/email interoperability - one third of users 
 communicating on this group don't do it via the forum. (If you 
 think that one third is not too bad, don't forget that that 
 includes most of the core team.) The ratio will probably be 
 lower on "learn", but higher on the more technical groups.

 The forum offers multiple view modes. Many people don't use the 
 default one, which mimics typical web forums. One view mode 
 I've added at Andrei's request, I think he will be unhappy to 
 see it go.


---snip-and-paste---

 I am continuously collecting (constructive) feedback about the 
 forum. Last year I made an overhaul and implemented nearly all 
 feature requests. If you have specific requests for 
 improvement, please create a GitHub issue:

 https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues

 All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual 
 serious proposal to replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse 
 appears, it will face just as much, if not more, vocal 
 disagreement. You can always create a poll or something if you 
 wish - out of curiosity, since as mentioned above, you'll have 
 a hard time convincing the people who are actually working on D 
 to switch.


As I understood what Mike originally wrote and he's now made 
certain below, nobody is critizing DFeed for its features or 
suggesting replacing it, only removing the lowest-common 
denominator accomodation of email and newgroup readers.


 The D forum also seems to be frequently lauded outside D's 
 community for its performance, and people seem to often present 
 in as an example of D's capabilities. It seems that any time 
 someone posts a link to forum.dlang.org, someone mentions its 
 unusually low response times.


Yes, I've seen that praise too, DFeed is a good showcase for D.  
The "Save and preview" button was a great addition; I use it 
often, particularly for long posts, and it largely obviates his 
desire to edit a post whenever.

I'd like some sort of formatting language, like github has.  
Can't you provide that option in the forum and send the resulting 
HTML as text/html MIME attachments to SMTP and NNTP?  I don't 
know if NNTP supports MIME.  Of course, some may complain about 
HTML messages, but perhaps they can be handed some text 
formatting fallback?  Anyway, not a huge issue, but nice to have.

The current messaging status quo, where everyone gets an 
undifferentiated stream of messages and then are forced to 
manually scan the headings or run a keyword search on all the 
contents, is incredibly outdated.  However, advancing beyond that 
will require some work, either to manually tag and vote on 
posts/threads or write software that will at least automate 
tagging, which is why it is rarely done.

But we need to move beyond this decades-old tech someday, as it's 
wasting too much of our time.



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling next sibling parent  Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com>  writes:


On Thursday, March 24, 2016 09:39:34 Vladimir Panteleev via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:

 All in all, I'm rather certain that as soon as an actual serious
 proposal to replace forum.dlang.org with e.g. Discourse appears,
 it will face just as much, if not more, vocal disagreement.


Not only that, but given how much praise we've gotten for the forum based on
its speed and all of the good publicity that we've gotten from that,
switching to something else would just plain look bad from a PR standpoint.
I'd never have guessed that we'd get good PR out of forum software like
we've gotten, but it's obviously been a huge win for us in the PR
department.

There are occasional requests for fancier features, and for better or worse,
we can't really implement most of them thanks to the fact that the forum is
just one interface to a shared backend, but it's not like everyone in here
is clamoring for fancy forum features that more popular forum software has.
What we have works very well.

So, while it is sometimes a bit annoying to have folks come in here
suggesting new forum features, it really doesn't come up much, and it really
doesn't seem to be a problem. Maybe we should figure out a way to make it
clearer that the forum software is built on top of NNTP so that folks are
less likely to ask for impossible features, but overall, what we have is a
huge win for us, and I don't see much reason to be concerned about the
occasional person who complains about how the forum software isn't "modern"
enough.

- Jonathan M Davis



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent  Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng gmail.com>  writes:


On 24/03/2016 09:39, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 It also allows much easier moderation, not relying on the news server
 admin to delete spam and any posts that go beyond the bounds of
 propriety.


 I don't think we have an issue with moderation.

 The spam filter could be a bit better, I suppose. Then again, we get
 MUCH less spam than any off-the-shelf forum software, since the spambot
 authors target them specifically, thus their spambots will find their
 way in much easier.


My issue with having to register to post or not, wasn't really about 
spam. It was more about troll posts, flame-bait posts, and anonymity.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros



 Mar 24 2016



prev sibling  parent  Meta <jared771 gmail.com>  writes:


I wasn't planning on replying to this thread, but I think we 
should all stop for a moment and marvel at the amazing power of 
this mailing list to derail discussions. We've gone from women in 
the community, to the merits of NNTP vs. web forums, to current 
politics. If the powers of this list could be properly harnessed, 
flame wars would become a thing of the past, buried and smothered 
out under pages and pages of digression. Even what is arguably 
the most inflammatory discussion topic in tech right now is no 
match for the power of forum.dlang.org. Let's all pat ourselves 
on the back for having discovered the perfect weapon to combat 
internet flame wars.



 Mar 24 2016