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digitalmars.D - Engine of forum

reply Andrey <saasecondbox yandex.ru> writes:
Hello,
Sorry if I write in wrong section but I didn't find proper.

Will this forum move someday to normal forum engine like Invision 
Power Board, phpBB... with good view of messages, formatting, 
user profiles..?
Or there are some reasons not to move or problems with it?
Aug 19 2018
parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 19/08/2018 11:08 PM, Andrey wrote:

 Hello,
 Sorry if I write in wrong section but I didn't find proper.
 
 Will this forum move someday to normal forum engine like Invision Power 
 Board, phpBB... with good view of messages, formatting, user profiles..?
 Or there are some reasons not to move or problems with it?


This is a news group not a forum.
The web interface is driven by DFeed and is written in D.

It has been designed to be very fast (quite a notable feature).
Aug 19 2018
next sibling parent tide <tide tide.tide> writes:
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 11:11:56 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 It has been designed to be very fast (quite a notable feature).


That's probably why it's down all the time :P.
Aug 19 2018
prev sibling parent reply Andrey <saasecondbox yandex.ru> writes:
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 11:11:56 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 This is a news group not a forum.
 The web interface is driven by DFeed and is written in D.

 It has been designed to be very fast (quite a notable feature).


I see this address: https://forum.dlang.org. It is forum.
Ok, even if it isn't a forum, will dlang community have someday 
the real forum? Are there any movements in this direction?
Aug 20 2018
parent reply Peter Alexander <peter.alexander.au gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 08:39:38 UTC, Andrey wrote:

 On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 11:11:56 UTC, rikki cattermole 
 wrote:

 This is a news group not a forum.
 The web interface is driven by DFeed and is written in D.

 It has been designed to be very fast (quite a notable feature).


 I see this address: https://forum.dlang.org. It is forum.
 Ok, even if it isn't a forum, will dlang community have someday 
 the real forum? Are there any movements in this direction?


What are the specific problems solved or opportunities realised 
by moving to a real forum?
Aug 20 2018
next sibling parent reply Andrey <saasecondbox yandex.ru> writes:
On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 09:52:01 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 What are the specific problems solved or opportunities realised 
 by moving to a real forum?


Normal view, user profiles, formatting of messages (we are 
programmers - we need format), when reply you don't need to 
quote...
It's a strange question, really. As though no one was on the 
normal forums and do not know how they are convenient.
Aug 20 2018
parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 20/08/2018 10:38 PM, Andrey wrote:

 On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 09:52:01 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 What are the specific problems solved or opportunities realised by 
 moving to a real forum?


 
 Normal view,


DFeed supports multiple views, is there some special one you wish to 
request?


 user profiles,


Why do you need that? All the information you need is embedded right 
into the messages themselves (its just emails after all, that yes you 
can download!).


 formatting of messages (we are programmers - we need format),


My install of Thunderbird has markdown extensions, so I have formatting.



 when reply you don't need to quote...


Plenty of forum users are required to quote. You lose track of what 
you're replying to otherwise because they are not a tree, its a list of 
replies only (which is very very bad and which N.G. does a lot better).


 It's a strange question, really. As though no one was on the normal 
 forums and do not know how they are convenient.


I have used both. N.G. are more convenient once you get use to them as a 
technically inclined person. Especially with DFeed, most have horrible 
interfaces.
Aug 20 2018
next sibling parent jurr <iforgot again.device32> writes:
On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 10:55:54 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 On 20/08/2018 10:38 PM, Andrey wrote:

 On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 09:52:01 UTC, Peter Alexander 
 wrote:
 user profiles,


 Why do you need that? All the information you need is embedded 
 right into the messages themselves (its just emails after all, 
 that yes you can download!).


View post history, edit posts (don't know how many times I 
misclick something and a half completed post gets posted which 
just makes it difficult to read and follow), be able to login I 
use a different made-up email on every device I post from cause I 
can't remember the last made-up email I used.


 formatting of messages (we are programmers - we need format),


 My install of Thunderbird has markdown extensions, so I have 
 formatting.


Should need an extension for this. Hell even reddit supports code 
formatting and that's not even a programming centric site.


 when reply you don't need to quote...


 Plenty of forum users are required to quote. You lose track of 
 what you're replying to otherwise because they are not a tree, 
 its a list of replies only (which is very very bad and which 
 N.G. does a lot better).


If you just want to make a comment on a topic without replying to 
any specific person


 It's a strange question, really. As though no one was on the 
 normal forums and do not know how they are convenient.


 I have used both. N.G. are more convenient once you get use to 
 them as a technically inclined person. Especially with DFeed, 
 most have horrible interfaces.


Pointing to DFeed as a solution sort of illustrates the issue. 
Almost ironic considering how you use DFeed through a web 
browser, but you just host the server on your own machine.
Aug 20 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent jurr <iforgot again.device32> writes:
Should not need an extension for this *
Aug 20 2018
prev sibling parent reply jurr <iforgot again.device32> writes:
delete: If you just want to make a comment on a topic without 
replying to any specific person
Didn't mean to post this as I don't think any forum really has 
that unless you just reply to the first post.
Aug 20 2018
parent reply MattCoder <a a.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 00:54:17 UTC, jurr wrote:

 ...If you just want to make a comment on a topic without 
 replying to any specific person...


I don't get because I think most of the time when you post 
something, you do by replying to someone anyway, you don't say 
things out of blue, you need a context.

For me most of the the things brought up here in this topic are 
not a problem at all.

This is one of best "forum-like" that I use, it is direct to the 
point, no fancy things to distract and thankfully no 
delete/change messages allowed.

Matt.
Aug 20 2018
parent jurr <iforgot again.device32> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 01:09:29 UTC, MattCoder wrote:

 On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 00:54:17 UTC, jurr wrote:

 ...If you just want to make a comment on a topic without 
 replying to any specific person...


 I don't get because I think most of the time when you post 
 something, you do by replying to someone anyway, you don't say 
 things out of blue, you need a context.

 For me most of the the things brought up here in this topic are 
 not a problem at all.

 This is one of best "forum-like" that I use, it is direct to 
 the point, no fancy things to distract and thankfully no 
 delete/change messages allowed.

 Matt.


See the third reply and also my first point of that post :).
Aug 20 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent Tony <tonytdominguez aol.com> writes:
On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 09:52:01 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 08:39:38 UTC, Andrey wrote:

 On Sunday, 19 August 2018 at 11:11:56 UTC, rikki cattermole 
 wrote:

 This is a news group not a forum.
 The web interface is driven by DFeed and is written in D.

 It has been designed to be very fast (quite a notable 
 feature).


 I see this address: https://forum.dlang.org. It is forum.
 Ok, even if it isn't a forum, will dlang community have 
 someday the real forum? Are there any movements in this 
 direction?


 What are the specific problems solved or opportunities realised 
 by moving to a real forum?


Inability to edit messages.
Aug 20 2018
prev sibling parent reply Ali <fakeemail example.com> writes:
On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 09:52:01 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:

 What are the specific problems solved or opportunities realised 
 by moving to a real forum?


What are the specific problems solved by using better software?

Well, most software projects, have different channels of 
communications,
some use forums, some use newsgroups, some use irc, some use 
slack, some rely on stackoverflow, some have an active wiki

But each project usually have one channel that is really the go 
to place to get help

I strongly believe that a better forum, that allow users some 
personalization and flexibility, will help grow the community, 
and growing the community is a good objective

Every now and then someone new to D comes and ask, why arent we 
using better forum software. And the replies they get are usually 
of the type, that this works for the current users and its not 
worth the effort to switch to something else

Many of those new comers who ask about the forum software .. they 
never stick, they dont complain, or question, or try to change 
for the better, they simply leave

You can not really measure how much the D community might have 
lost, by resisting the repeat demand of using a better forum ... 
and its not like D have other channels
Aug 20 2018
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/20/2018 8:42 PM, Ali wrote:

 Many of those new comers who ask about the forum software .. they never stick, 
 they dont complain, or question, or try to change for the better, they simply
leave


Ask 10 people, and you'll get 10 different answers on what a better forum would 
be. If people leave because of the forum software, changing it won't change
that.
Aug 20 2018
parent reply Ali <fakeemail example.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 05:30:07 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Ask 10 people, and you'll get 10 different answers on what a 
 better forum would be.


Actually I think we can get 8 out of those 10 to agree,
rust, ocaml, fsharp, nim, scala, clojure .. all use 
https://www.discourse.org/
I think this software is nowadays regarded and the best


 If people leave because of the forum software, changing it 
 won't change that.


I also agree with that, most people who leave probably leave for 
more objective reasons, like that the language doesn't answer 
their needs, or they didnt find the libraries they needed within 
the ecosystem etc...

But what I really meant, is that out of those who leaves, there 
is possible a very small percentage who left, because they 
couldnt communicate effectively with the community, and that 
better communication channels in general ( and a better forum 
software as an example) could have kept them around for longer , 
replacing the forum software is a small change, a small win, and 
I expect small returns. But a small win, is a win
Aug 21 2018
next sibling parent Bastiaan Veelo <Bastiaan Veelo.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 14:08:01 UTC, Ali wrote:
[...]

 But what I really meant, is that out of those who leaves, there 
 is possible a very small percentage who left, because they 
 couldnt communicate effectively with the community,


Are you serious? This forum software is the most effektive I 
know. It is also efficient, especially for reading messages.


 and that better communication channels in general ( and a 
 better forum software as an example) could have kept them 
 around for longer,


To what advantage?


 replacing the forum software is a small change,


Arguably...


 a small win, and I expect small returns. But a small win, is a 
 win


It’s not a win in everybody’s minds ;-)

I’m not saying that the forum cannot be improved, but to scrap it 
would be a loss if you ask me.
Aug 21 2018
prev sibling parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy gmail.com> writes:
On 8/21/18 10:08 AM, Ali wrote:

 On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 05:30:07 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Ask 10 people, and you'll get 10 different answers on what a better 
 forum would be.


 
 Actually I think we can get 8 out of those 10 to agree,
 rust, ocaml, fsharp, nim, scala, clojure .. all use 
 https://www.discourse.org/
 I think this software is nowadays regarded and the best


Cool! Does it support an interface on top of a newsgroup server? 



 

 If people leave because of the forum software, changing it won't 
 change that.


 
 I also agree with that, most people who leave probably leave for more 
 objective reasons, like that the language doesn't answer their needs, or 
 they didnt find the libraries they needed within the ecosystem etc...
 
 But what I really meant, is that out of those who leaves, there is 
 possible a very small percentage who left, because they couldnt 
 communicate effectively with the community, and that better 
 communication channels in general ( and a better forum software as an 
 example) could have kept them around for longer , replacing the forum 
 software is a small change, a small win, and I expect small returns. But 
 a small win, is a win


On the contrary, many of the regular contributors here, don't give a 
lick about the forum software, as long as it's primarily backed by the 
newsgroup server. Many, including myself use the NG server, many others 
use the mailing list interface. If the NG was ditched, I would have a 
big problem communicating, as I hate dealing with web forums.

The forum software probably could be better in terms of formatting code 
(see for example vibe.d's forums which are ALSO NG backed and have code 
formatting features). Other than that, editing posts just doesn't make 
sense in terms of a mailing list or newsgroup. And it also doesn't make 
sense in terms of a discussion where things you thought you read 
mysteriously change.

-Steve
Aug 21 2018
parent Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:40:32 AM MDT Steven Schveighoffer via 
Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On the contrary, many of the regular contributors here, don't give a
 lick about the forum software, as long as it's primarily backed by the
 newsgroup server. Many, including myself use the NG server, many others
 use the mailing list interface. If the NG was ditched, I would have a
 big problem communicating, as I hate dealing with web forums.


I use the mailing list interface and have since well before the current
forum interface was added. I have years worth of history available offline,
and I can easily keep track of what I have and haven't read, even if I
access it from separate machines (which is actually why I use the mailing
list rather than the newsgroup - the newsgroup software that I used
previously had no way to sync which messages were read between machines). I
do use web forums for other communities, but I _much_ prefer being able to
use my e-mail client to using a web interface. And plenty of other
programming communities use mailing lists rather than web forums. The only
real downside I see to mailing lists is that they're more of a pain if you
just want to look at the content occasionally rather than actually being
involved. So, they definitely favor people who follow them actively over
folks who are very casual about it. But our system has the advantage of
giving folks three different interfaces to the same content. So, you can
choose whichever you prefer. The only major downside I see to the current
setup is folks who don't understand that the "forum" is just one of several
interfaces to a newsgroup, and they come in here and complain that the forum
software doesn't have some feature or other that they want. Maybe some of
those features would be nice, but they generally do not go well with either
a newsgroup or mailing list (which a large percentage of the major
contributors use), and in my experience, the features you get from a
newsgroup or mailing list are more than adequate for the kind of
communication that goes on here.

I would be _very_ unhappy if we ever switched to something else like
discourse or if the forum software got features that resulted in folks there
posting a bunch of markup or the like instead of plain text, since that
would be bad for the mailing list and newsgroup users. Fortunately, since
Walter is a newsgroup user and definitely seems to like the current setup,
it's unlikely that it's going to be screwed up any time soon.

- Jonathan M Davis
Sep 04 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Daniel N <no public.email> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 03:42:21 UTC, Ali wrote:

 Many of those new comers who ask about the forum software .. 
 they never stick, they dont complain, or question, or try to 
 change for the better, they simply leave


I think this is the best forum I have ever used, it's a big 
contributing factor to that I post here! I don't post every month 
praising the forum, I'm silently happy. But if we changed I would 
likely complain every month.
Aug 20 2018
parent reply Patrick Schluter <Patrick.Schluter bbox.fr> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 06:53:18 UTC, Daniel N wrote:

 On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 03:42:21 UTC, Ali wrote:

 Many of those new comers who ask about the forum software .. 
 they never stick, they dont complain, or question, or try to 
 change for the better, they simply leave


 I think this is the best forum I have ever used, it's a big 
 contributing factor to that I post here! I don't post every 
 month praising the forum, I'm silently happy. But if we changed 
 I would likely complain every month.


Second that.

The 2 big things this forum frontend has, is forcing to snip 
quotes (go look on realworldtech to see whole threads of quote 
galore of 400 lines where the answer is just one word) and speed.
The thing that comments cannot be edited is also an advantage. 
This forces to put a little be more thought in them.
Aug 21 2018
parent reply tide <tide tide.tide> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 21:33:13 UTC, Patrick Schluter 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 06:53:18 UTC, Daniel N wrote:

 On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 03:42:21 UTC, Ali wrote:

 Many of those new comers who ask about the forum software .. 
 they never stick, they dont complain, or question, or try to 
 change for the better, they simply leave


 I think this is the best forum I have ever used, it's a big 
 contributing factor to that I post here! I don't post every 
 month praising the forum, I'm silently happy. But if we 
 changed I would likely complain every month.


 Second that.

 The 2 big things this forum frontend has, is forcing to snip 
 quotes (go look on realworldtech to see whole threads of quote 
 galore of 400 lines where the answer is just one word) and 
 speed.
 The thing that comments cannot be edited is also an advantage. 
 This forces to put a little be more thought in them.


What about if you accidentially press a button that posts the 
comment?

Why can't syntax formatting be implemented, does anyone disagree 
that is a useless feature?
Aug 21 2018
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/21/2018 2:41 PM, tide wrote:

 What about if you accidentially press a button that posts the comment?


That's really up to your NNTP client's design, which we didn't implement. There 
are lots of NNTP clients to choose from.


 Why can't syntax formatting be implemented, does anyone disagree that is a 
 useless feature?


It's a useless feature.

Formatting is needed for longer form text, which is not really appropriate for 
the forum. Forum posts should be short and to the point - posting an article or 
manifesto should be posted separately, with a link to it in the forum.

Also, there is no need to post pictures, emoji, banners, or other cruft one
sees 
in other forums. Especially pictures, as those eat up server space and bandwith 
at a terrifying rate.

Nearly 20 years of the D forum consumes 2,800,000 4K blocks, or somewhat over a 
gigabyte. Not bad.
Aug 23 2018
next sibling parent reply Andrey <saasecondbox yandex.ru> writes:
On Friday, 24 August 2018 at 01:43:54 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 8/21/2018 2:41 PM, tide wrote:

 What about if you accidentially press a button that posts the 
 comment?


 That's really up to your NNTP client's design, which we didn't 
 implement. There are lots of NNTP clients to choose from.


 Why can't syntax formatting be implemented, does anyone 
 disagree that is a useless feature?


 It's a useless feature.

 Formatting is needed for longer form text, which is not really 
 appropriate for the forum. Forum posts should be short and to 
 the point - posting an article or manifesto should be posted 
 separately, with a link to it in the forum.

 Also, there is no need to post pictures, emoji, banners, or 
 other cruft one sees in other forums. Especially pictures, as 
 those eat up server space and bandwith at a terrifying rate.

 Nearly 20 years of the D forum consumes 2,800,000 4K blocks, or 
 somewhat over a gigabyte. Not bad.


Forum posts should be informative and contain meaningful text 
that will be understandable for readers. And if required, it 
should contain videos / images / screenshots / quotes / links, 
etc. And should be written so that it is convenient to read - 
with formatting, highlighting, indentation...

It is very strange to hear from programmer that "syntax 
formatting" is useless feature.

Possibility to vote for message, append "thank you" and mark some 
message as an answer it also increases readability.

Any self-respecting website related to programming or developing 
something, has in its composition a place where people can 
comfortably and freely discuss pressing issues. Not some weird 
news group.
Aug 31 2018
next sibling parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 31/08/2018 10:16 PM, Andrey wrote:

 Any self-respecting website related to programming or developing 
 something, has in its composition a place where people can comfortably 
 and freely discuss pressing issues. Not some weird news group.


Feel free to argue this for projects like the Linux kernel.
If you succeed it is safe to say we will too.
Aug 31 2018
parent Petar Kirov [ZombineDev] <petar.p.kirov gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 31 August 2018 at 10:37:05 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:

 On 31/08/2018 10:16 PM, Andrey wrote:

 Any self-respecting website related to programming or 
 developing something, has in its composition a place where 
 people can comfortably and freely discuss pressing issues. Not 
 some weird news group.


 Feel free to argue this for projects like the Linux kernel.
 If you succeed it is safe to say we will too.


Some subsystems of the Linux kernel like DRM are migrating their 
development to GitLab. They'll still be using mailing lists as 
the primary communication channel, but perhaps using GitLab merge 
requests and issues is not far off either. Sometimes when the 
right incentives like easier infrastructure management and 
developer productivity are in place unthinkable things like that 
do happen. Only time will tell ;)

https://about.gitlab.com/2018/08/20/freedesktop-org-migrates-to-gitlab/
Aug 31 2018
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/31/2018 3:16 AM, Andrey wrote:

 Forum posts should be informative and contain meaningful text that will be 
 understandable for readers. And if required, it should contain videos / images
/ 
 screenshots / quotes / links, etc.


It already highlights quotes and links. As for the rest, the D forum is not a 
free hosting service for pictures, videos, manuscripts, music, or project
source 
code. There are free services for that (youtube, imgur, github, etc.) which 
you're welcome to link to from a post.

Posts should be short, on topic and to the point. Quoting of the antecedent 
should be minimal.



 It is very strange to hear from programmer that "syntax formatting" is useless 
 feature.


It's not useful for snippets of code. Worse, often people want to write 
grammatically incorrect code for purposes of illustration, highlighting that 
would be a nuisance.
Sep 01 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply tide <tide tide.tide> writes:
On Friday, 24 August 2018 at 01:43:54 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 8/21/2018 2:41 PM, tide wrote:

 What about if you accidentially press a button that posts the 
 comment?


 That's really up to your NNTP client's design, which we didn't 
 implement. There are lots of NNTP clients to choose from.


Don't use a NNTP client, I prefer to just use a browser.


 Why can't syntax formatting be implemented, does anyone 
 disagree that is a useless feature?


 It's a useless feature.

 Formatting is needed for longer form text, which is not really 
 appropriate for the forum. Forum posts should be short and to 
 the point - posting an article or manifesto should be posted 
 separately, with a link to it in the forum.

 Also, there is no need to post pictures, emoji, banners, or 
 other cruft one sees in other forums. Especially pictures, as 
 those eat up server space and bandwith at a terrifying rate.

 Nearly 20 years of the D forum consumes 2,800,000 4K blocks, or 
 somewhat over a gigabyte. Not bad.


So you've never posted a snippet of code on here? I honestly 
doubt that. Syntax formatting is useful even if you only post 2 
lines of code. No wonder these boards are the way they are with 
opinions like that.
Aug 31 2018
parent "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 08/31/2018 03:28 PM, tide wrote:

 
 Don't use a NNTP client, I prefer to just use a browser.
 


For many of us it's the opposite. If you prefer to use a browser then 
you're free to keep using it.


 So you've never posted a snippet of code on here? I honestly doubt that. 
 Syntax formatting is useful even if you only post 2 lines of code. No 
 wonder these boards are the way they are with opinions like that.


Syntax highlighting of code snippets would be nice. You could bring it 
up at DFeed's issue tracker.
Sep 01 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent tide <tide tide.tide> writes:
On Friday, 24 August 2018 at 01:43:54 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Nearly 20 years of the D forum consumes 2,800,000 4K blocks, or 
 somewhat over a gigabyte. Not bad.


Using years is about a pointless as using lines of code to 
evaluate a project. There's some sites that have received more 
throughput of users and their activity in one year than this site 
has seen in 20.
Aug 31 2018
prev sibling parent 0xEAB <desisma heidel.beer> writes:
On Friday, 24 August 2018 at 01:43:54 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Why can't syntax formatting be implemented, does anyone 
 disagree that is a useless feature?


 It's a useless feature.

 Formatting is needed for longer form text, which is not really 
 appropriate for the forum. Forum posts should be short and to 
 the point - posting an article or manifesto should be posted 
 separately, with a link to it in the forum.


Moreover, for those who really want to show their code:
There are sites like run.dlang.io or dpaste.dzfl.pl. They don't 
just store one's code snippets for viewing them with syntax 
highlighting, they also come with the handy feature of allowing 
one to execute them directly via their webservice.
Aug 31 2018
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 08/21/2018 05:41 PM, tide wrote:

 
 What about if you accidentially press a button that posts the comment?
 


Then the world ends and everybody dies horribly.

Erm...wait, I mean:

You post a follow-up and move on.


 Why can't syntax formatting be implemented, does anyone disagree that is 
 a useless feature?


What for? To reinvent the wonders that non-plaintext email unleashed on 
the world? To add an extra tick in some marketing blurb?

Fire and Motion:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/

(Skip the first half. Do a text search for "Fire and Motion" and read 
from there on.)
Sep 01 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 03:42:21 UTC, Ali wrote:

 On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 09:52:01 UTC, Peter Alexander 
 wrote:

 What are the specific problems solved or opportunities 
 realised by moving to a real forum?


 What are the specific problems solved by using better software?

 Well, most software projects, have different channels of 
 communications,
 some use forums, some use newsgroups, some use irc, some use 
 slack,


Yep, D also has an active IRC channel (#d) and Slack group 
(https://forum.dlang.org/post/gidqeijjswgnpveogmzr forum.dlang.org).


 some rely on stackoverflow, some have an active wiki


There are a few good points to move D.learn to Stack Overflow and 
that's actually one thing that we have talked about a few times 
and somehow never has happened. In the D survey there was a 2:1 
"consensus" for StackOverflow.
Aug 21 2018
next sibling parent Arun Chandrasekaran <aruncxy gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 14:18:40 UTC, Seb wrote:

 On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 03:42:21 UTC, Ali wrote:

 On Monday, 20 August 2018 at 09:52:01 UTC, Peter Alexander 
 wrote:

 [...]


 What are the specific problems solved by using better software?

 Well, most software projects, have different channels of 
 communications,
 some use forums, some use newsgroups, some use irc, some use 
 slack,


 Yep, D also has an active IRC channel (#d) and Slack group 
 (https://forum.dlang.org/post/gidqeijjswgnpveogmzr forum.dlang.org).


 some rely on stackoverflow, some have an active wiki


 There are a few good points to move D.learn to Stack Overflow 
 and that's actually one thing that we have talked about a few 
 times and somehow never has happened. In the D survey there was 
 a 2:1 "consensus" for StackOverflow.


That would increase the visibility of D as well!
Aug 21 2018
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/21/2018 7:18 AM, Seb wrote:

 some rely on stackoverflow, some have an active wiki


 There are a few good points to move D.learn to Stack Overflow and that's 
 actually one thing that we have talked about a few times and somehow never has 
 happened. In the D survey there was a 2:1 "consensus" for StackOverflow.


My reservation about stackoverflow is it could go dark at any moment, and we'd 
lose it all. Having critical business data dependent on any third party that
has 
zero commitment or accountability to us is very risky.

With the NNTP, git, and bugzilla, we all have backups under our control.
Aug 21 2018
next sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 19:25:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 With the NNTP, git, and bugzilla, we all have backups under our 
 control.


I just don't see why it is a concern[1]:

"So we set out to look for a new home for our data dumps, and 
today we’re happy to announce that the Internet Archive has 
agreed to host them:
The Stack Exchange Data Dump at the Internet Archive[2]"

1. : 
https://stackoverflow.blog/2014/01/23/stack-exchange-cc-data-now-hosted-by-the-internet-archive/
2. https://archive.org/details/stackexchange
Aug 21 2018
parent reply Neia Neutuladh <neia ikeran.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 22:00:31 UTC, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 On Tuesday, 21 August 2018 at 19:25:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 With the NNTP, git, and bugzilla, we all have backups under 
 our control.


 I just don't see why it is a concern[1]:

 "So we set out to look for a new home for our data dumps, and 
 today we’re happy to announce that the Internet Archive has 
 agreed to host them:
 The Stack Exchange Data Dump at the Internet Archive[2]"

 1. : 
 https://stackoverflow.blog/2014/01/23/stack-exchange-cc-data-now-hosted-by-the-internet-archive/
 2. https://archive.org/details/stackexchange


The dlang bugzilla and forum are both hosted on dlang-specific 
servers. If they go down, it's easy to get a replica and get back 
up and running in a few hours. Same with the wiki.

If github went down or banned the dlang org, we'd lose 
in-progress pull requests and the history of pull request 
comments. Aside from that, we would be up and running on gitlab 
or what have you in hours.

If Stack Overflow went down, we'd have to find an alternative, 
and then we'd have to figure out how to import that data. That 
could take weeks. And it will happen eventually.
Aug 21 2018
parent reply Jesse Phillips <Jesse.K.Phillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 22 August 2018 at 05:05:48 UTC, Neia Neutuladh 
wrote:

 The dlang bugzilla and forum are both hosted on dlang-specific 
 servers. If they go down, it's easy to get a replica and get 
 back up and running in a few hours. Same with the wiki.

 If github went down or banned the dlang org, we'd lose 
 in-progress pull requests and the history of pull request 
 comments. Aside from that, we would be up and running on gitlab 
 or what have you in hours.

 If Stack Overflow went down, we'd have to find an alternative, 
 and then we'd have to figure out how to import that data. That 
 could take weeks. And it will happen eventually.


It is weird that you make loosing current and historical pull 
requests is minor compared to:

* Having all the data readily available for search engines to 
have archived (today, not tomorrow).
* Having an established forum/newsgroup readily available to 
handle the load of new questions.

I just don't see data retention and recovery for StackOverflow to 
be a concern for making such a choice. Even if it did take weeks 
or months to host the historical data, risk should be weighed 
against possible benefit from visibility and growth from heavily 
using StackOverflow.
Aug 22 2018
parent reply Neia Neutuladh <neia ikeran.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 22 August 2018 at 15:17:36 UTC, Jesse Phillips 
wrote:

 It is weird that you make loosing current and historical pull 
 requests is minor


It would be disruptive. However, work could resume rather quickly.

The disruption would be reduced if we had a periodic job set up 
to mirror github pull requests. There is at least one export 
tool, but it seems to get only the titles and not the comments or 
patches.


 compared to:

 * Having all the data readily available for search engines to 
 have archived (today, not tomorrow).
 * Having an established forum/newsgroup readily available to 
 handle the load of new questions.

 I just don't see data retention and recovery for StackOverflow 
 to be a concern for making such a choice. Even if it did take 
 weeks or months to host the historical data, risk should be 
 weighed against possible benefit from visibility and growth 
 from heavily using StackOverflow.


And similarly, the choice of Github instead of a self-hosted 
system is weighed against requiring people to sign up with a 
private gitlab instance. Also similarly, the disruption would be 
reduced if we had a periodic job set up to handle long-term 
stackoverflow unavailability in advance.

I'm a little paranoid about centralized services like Github. I'd 
prefer a federated service for source control / project 
management, where you could easily fork projects from my server 
to yours and send back pull requests. Then there would be no 
extra cost for hosting your own vs using an existing instance.

I've been low-key thinking about making a federated github, one 
where exporting your data is as simple as a `git clone; git 
submodule update --init`. Probably nothing will come of it, 
though.
Aug 22 2018
parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 04:06:38PM +0000, Neia Neutuladh via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
[...]

 I'm a little paranoid about centralized services like Github. I'd
 prefer a federated service for source control / project management,
 where you could easily fork projects from my server to yours and send
 back pull requests.  Then there would be no extra cost for hosting
 your own vs using an existing instance.


In fact, git itself was designed with such a decentralized usage pattern
in mind.  Ironically, people have rebuilt centralized platforms on top
of it, and even to the point of building walled gardens like github.

I don't argue against the usefulness of the features that github
provides, but I'm also wary of the fact that it's basically a walled
garden -- there's no simple way I know of to extract data like pull
requests, comments, cross-references, etc..  I mean, it's *possible* to
write a web crawler that does just that, but such functionality is
second-class, and one might argue, that it is possible at all is merely
a happy accident, since github's very design seems to be geared at
drawing people to centralize everything on github.  It's not quite at
the point of vendor lock-in, but it's certainly uncomfortably close, in
my view.



 I've been low-key thinking about making a federated github, one where
 exporting your data is as simple as a `git clone; git submodule update
 --init`. Probably nothing will come of it, though.


That would be more in line with the decentralized design of git. I would
welcome such a platform, if it ever materializes.


T

-- 
People who are more than casually interested in computers should have at least
some idea of what the underlying hardware is like. Otherwise the programs they
write will be pretty weird. -- D. Knuth
Aug 22 2018
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/22/2018 10:28 AM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I don't argue against the usefulness of the features that github
 provides, but I'm also wary of the fact that it's basically a walled
 garden -- there's no simple way I know of to extract data like pull
 requests, comments, cross-references, etc..  I mean, it's *possible* to
 write a web crawler that does just that, but such functionality is
 second-class, and one might argue, that it is possible at all is merely
 a happy accident, since github's very design seems to be geared at
 drawing people to centralize everything on github.  It's not quite at
 the point of vendor lock-in, but it's certainly uncomfortably close, in
 my view.


As for github comments, they get echoed to me as emails. So I have an email 
archive of them.
Aug 22 2018
parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 04:24:17PM -0700, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 8/22/2018 10:28 AM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I don't argue against the usefulness of the features that github
 provides, but I'm also wary of the fact that it's basically a walled
 garden -- there's no simple way I know of to extract data like pull
 requests, comments, cross-references, etc..  I mean, it's *possible*
 to write a web crawler that does just that, but such functionality
 is second-class, and one might argue, that it is possible at all is
 merely a happy accident, since github's very design seems to be
 geared at drawing people to centralize everything on github.  It's
 not quite at the point of vendor lock-in, but it's certainly
 uncomfortably close, in my view.


 
 As for github comments, they get echoed to me as emails. So I have an
 email archive of them.


That's good to know.

Still, an export function that will give you your data in some
computer-parseable format would have been nice.


T

-- 
Why can't you just be a nonconformist like everyone else? -- YHL
Aug 22 2018
parent tide <tide tide.tide> writes:
On Wednesday, 22 August 2018 at 23:53:46 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 04:24:17PM -0700, Walter Bright via 
 Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 8/22/2018 10:28 AM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 I don't argue against the usefulness of the features that 
 github provides, but I'm also wary of the fact that it's 
 basically a walled garden -- there's no simple way I know of 
 to extract data like pull requests, comments, 
 cross-references, etc..  I mean, it's *possible* to write a 
 web crawler that does just that, but such functionality is 
 second-class, and one might argue, that it is possible at 
 all is merely a happy accident, since github's very design 
 seems to be geared at drawing people to centralize 
 everything on github.  It's not quite at the point of vendor 
 lock-in, but it's certainly uncomfortably close, in my view.


 
 As for github comments, they get echoed to me as emails. So I 
 have an email archive of them.


 That's good to know.

 Still, an export function that will give you your data in some 
 computer-parseable format would have been nice.


 T


They have an API for taht, and it looks like people have made 
programs to create backups of it with the api.

https://developer.github.com/v3/
https://hackage.haskell.org/package/github-backup
Aug 22 2018
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 08/22/2018 01:28 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 04:06:38PM +0000, Neia Neutuladh via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
 [...]

 I'm a little paranoid about centralized services like Github. I'd
 prefer a federated service for source control / project management,
 where you could easily fork projects from my server to yours and send
 back pull requests.  Then there would be no extra cost for hosting
 your own vs using an existing instance.




My fingers are very tightly crossed, hoping, hoping, hoping for good 
things from Tim Berners-Lee's Solid:

https://github.com/solid/solid
(Introduction, docs and project repo.)

https://solid.mit.edu/
(The obligatory zero-meaningful-information "manager's introduction", 
but worth having bookmarked anyway.)

If we're lucky, maybe someday Solid will pan out enough to have a 
re-decentralized Github built on top.


 In fact, git itself was designed with such a decentralized usage pattern
 in mind.  Ironically, people have rebuilt centralized platforms on top
 of it, and even to the point of building walled gardens like github.
 
 I don't argue against the usefulness of the features that github
 provides, but I'm also wary of the fact that it's basically a walled
 garden


/nod /nod Exactly how I always saw it.

Another frustrating irony I noticed: Git was deliberately built from the 
ground up for performance. In fact, that was always one of its biggest 
selling points, esp. in comparison to other VCSes. But then GitHub, 
built specifically and exclusively around Git, has only in the last 
couple years or so become...uhh...*NOT* completely insanely absurdly 
slow. Still not "fast" or lean, mind you. Just not *horrifically* slow.

It's as if GitHub was founded by people saying "Hey! Git is seriously 
awesome! In fact, Git is soooo freaking awesome that...'know what? 'know 
what we should do? We should build a service around Git that throws away 
ALL the things that make Git awesome! Isn't that a fantastic idea!!!"

If I were a Silicon Valley VC, that'd get my money!


 I've been low-key thinking about making a federated github, one where
 exporting your data is as simple as a `git clone; git submodule update
 --init`. Probably nothing will come of it, though.




A big "same here" to all parts of this ;)
Sep 01 2018
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 1:25:14 PM MDT Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:

 On 8/21/2018 7:18 AM, Seb wrote:

 some rely on stackoverflow, some have an active wiki


 There are a few good points to move D.learn to Stack Overflow and that's
 actually one thing that we have talked about a few times and somehow
 never has happened. In the D survey there was a 2:1 "consensus" for
 StackOverflow.


 My reservation about stackoverflow is it could go dark at any moment, and
 we'd lose it all. Having critical business data dependent on any third
 party that has zero commitment or accountability to us is very risky.

 With the NNTP, git, and bugzilla, we all have backups under our control.


In addition to that, SO and D.Learn are fundamentally different ways to
communicate with their own pros and cons. And both are used. People ask D
questions in both places, and I don't see any reason to try and get rid of
one in favor of the other. Shutting down D.Learn would essentially be saying
that we don't want to help people learning D (even if we're then willing to
help them on SO), and it would result in an increase in questions in the
main newsgroup about how to use D. We have enough problems with that
already. I don't think that it makes any sense to even consider shutting
down D.Learn regardless of what's going on with SO.

- Jonathan M Davis
Sep 04 2018
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 08/21/2018 10:18 AM, Seb wrote:

 
 There are a few good points to move D.learn to Stack Overflow and that's 
 actually one thing that we have talked about a few times and somehow 
 never has happened. In the D survey there was a 2:1 "consensus" for 
 StackOverflow.


Eeew, god no. That would be HORRIBLE.

I've used StackOverflow. It's NOT a place for asking and answering 
questions. It's a place where anybody who fancies themself a control 
freak can come play out their hall-monitor/web-moderator fantasies all 
while earning points toward nifty stickers(!!!) and leveling-up their 
self-righteousness stats to earn bigger and better tools for exerting 
control over others.

I'm not even joking: StackOverflow might not have intended it, but it 
really IS more of a mixed-reality social MMO than a Q&A tool. I'm amazed 
that anyone who's tried it can still take it seriously.

In D.learn: People post questions. Other people post answers. Done.

In StackOverflow: Attempts to ask/answer regularly just get 
shame-slapped into oblivion by any one of the hundreds (thousands?) of 
members mostly just there to play the meta-game.
Sep 01 2018
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Saturday, 1 September 2018 at 22:10:27 UTC, Nick Sabalausky  
wrote:

 I've used StackOverflow. It's NOT a place for asking and 
 answering questions.


I generally agree, but the D tag on it isn't so bad since most 
the annoying regulars keep away. It is more the domain of me and 
a handful of other regular D folks (though indeed, sometimes the 
annoying types step in to shut stuff down, I often will just 
answer it anyway (ab)using my 20,000 magic internet points to 
comment on closed stuff if I happen to see it in time)
Sep 01 2018
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 9/1/2018 3:58 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Saturday, 1 September 2018 at 22:10:27 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 I've used StackOverflow. It's NOT a place for asking and answering questions.


 
 I generally agree, but the D tag on it isn't so bad since most the annoying 
 regulars keep away. It is more the domain of me and a handful of other regular
D 
 folks (though indeed, sometimes the annoying types step in to shut stuff down,
I 
 often will just answer it anyway (ab)using my 20,000 magic internet points to 
 comment on closed stuff if I happen to see it in time)


Sometimes I get caught up in Reddit/Hackernews karma. Then, I remember that
it's 
absurdly meaningless. Maybe if Reddit/Hackernews would let me exchange karma
for 
a tote bag or t-shirt :-)
Sep 01 2018
next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 09/01/2018 07:46 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 9/1/2018 3:58 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Saturday, 1 September 2018 at 22:10:27 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 I've used StackOverflow. It's NOT a place for asking and answering 
 questions.


 I generally agree, but the D tag on it isn't so bad since most the 
 annoying regulars keep away. It is more the domain of me and a handful 
 of other regular D folks (though indeed, sometimes the annoying types 
 step in to shut stuff down, I often will just answer it anyway 
 (ab)using my 20,000 magic internet points to comment on closed stuff 
 if I happen to see it in time)




That's good to hear. Although, can't help fearing how the environment 
there might chance if it did become the new official D.learn.


 Sometimes I get caught up in Reddit/Hackernews karma. Then, I remember 
 that it's absurdly meaningless. Maybe if Reddit/Hackernews would let me 
 exchange karma for a tote bag or t-shirt :-)


Nah, man, go to Dave & Busters or Round One for your trinkets. Skee-Ball 
beats internet debates any day ;) (Come to think of it...why am I here 
and not there now? They have imports! Iiiiimmmports!!!!)
Sep 01 2018
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <newsgroup.d jmdavisprog.com> writes:
On Saturday, September 1, 2018 5:46:55 PM MDT Walter Bright via Digitalmars-
d wrote:

 On 9/1/2018 3:58 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Saturday, 1 September 2018 at 22:10:27 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 I've used StackOverflow. It's NOT a place for asking and answering
 questions.>


 I generally agree, but the D tag on it isn't so bad since most the
 annoying regulars keep away. It is more the domain of me and a handful
 of other regular D folks (though indeed, sometimes the annoying types
 step in to shut stuff down, I often will just answer it anyway
 (ab)using my 20,000 magic internet points to comment on closed stuff if
 I happen to see it in time)


 Sometimes I get caught up in Reddit/Hackernews karma. Then, I remember
 that it's absurdly meaningless. Maybe if Reddit/Hackernews would let me
 exchange karma for a tote bag or t-shirt :-)


In theory, SO reputation is more meaningful in that in principle, it
indicates that other programmers think that you know what you're talking
about. And actually, the fact that I'd answered a bunch of questions on SO
and had a high reputation helped me get a job at one point, because it was
an online resource where the folks interviewing me could actually see that I
knew what I was talking about before they even talked to me. Reputation on
SO does need to be taken with a grain of salt, but when someone has 10K+
reputation from answering questions, and you can see what they've posted, it
does say something about what they know and not just that folks thought that
they said a bunch of funny or insightful things.

Overall, I don't think that SO is a great platform (and while I've answered
a bunch of questions, I've asked relatively few there), but it does provide
the answers to many people's questions, and as someone who answers
questions, it provides a way to show others that you actually know how to
program - especially when that's then added to other stuff that you have
online like your github history.

- Jonathan M Davis
Sep 04 2018
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa)" <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 08/20/2018 11:42 PM, Ali wrote:

 
 Every now and then someone new to D comes and ask, why arent we using 
 better forum software. 
 


There *is* better forum software than what they're used to using. *MUCH* 
better. It's called Thunderbird.

:)
Sep 01 2018