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digitalmars.D - Does D have any political goals?

reply thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
(If this message is off-topic/disallowed I apologize dearly, and 
please feel free to remove this post if this is the case.)

Hello guys,

I have been programming for a couple of years in various 
different languages. A couple of weeks ago I decided that I would 
like to learn a new language, so I went ahead and began learning 
Rust.

Immediately I realized how toxic, egostic, and rude the Rust 
community was, and this made me very uncomfortable as when I 
learn new languages I often love to be a part of the community 
and interact with fellow programmers.

After that, I began to learn about all of the social 
justice/political statements that Rust was putting out over the 
last couple of years in regards to topics unrelated to 
programming, this made me feel very uncomfortable -- not 
necessarily because I disagreed with what they were saying (in 
fact I agreed with most statements), but mostly because I felt 
like  politics shouldn't be involved in a programming language.

Eventually I gave up on Rust, I simply couldn't ignore these two 
issues that I had with the community and the core team. Rust had 
the right to make political statements, but I had the right not 
to use a language if that was the case.

For the next couple of days I was trying very hard to find an 
apolitical language to learn instead of Rust, and I stumbled 
across D. D seemed like a good language to learn and I saw that 
the community was EXTREMELY nice, although I am not sure whether 
D is an apolitical language (or whether they have been involved 
politically).

I am just here asking whether or not D will keep politics out of 
programming, et cetera, and look -- if D is political then I have 
absolutely no issue, in fact I respect this decision completely. 
It's just that when politics gets involved in programming it puts 
me off instantly, so that's why I asked.

Answers would be appreciated :D

Regards,
thebluepandabear
Nov 06 2022
next sibling parent reply zjh <fqbqrr 163.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 (If this message is off-topic/disallowed I apologize dearly, 
 and please feel free to remove this post if this is the case.)

 Hello guys,


D Forum is basically a `technical forum`.
Nov 06 2022
next sibling parent zjh <fqbqrr 163.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:45:35 UTC, zjh wrote:


 D Forum is basically a `technical forum`.


For me, I hope that `D` can strengthen interfacing `C++`, or 
enhance `betterC`.
In addition, the `standard library` should support `betterC` in 
most cases, so that everyone does not have to create a `betterC` 
version of the standard library.

`Rust` is not good for me. I think D can write an article or two 
to talk about D's advantages over `rust`.
[1](https://fqbqrr.blog.csdn.net/article/details/123035356)
[2](https://fqbqrr.blog.csdn.net/article/details/123035375)
Nov 06 2022
prev sibling parent reply thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:45:35 UTC, zjh wrote:

 On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
 wrote:

 (If this message is off-topic/disallowed I apologize dearly, 
 and please feel free to remove this post if this is the case.)

 Hello guys,


 D Forum is basically a `technical forum`.


Apologies, Adkins can remove this.
Nov 06 2022
parent reply zjh <fqbqrr 163.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:53:49 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:


 Apologies, Adkins can remove this.


  D Forum is very open and inclusive. Don't apologize, but don't 
be uncivilized.
Everyone is very relaxed and casual.
Nov 06 2022
parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:57:51 UTC, zjh wrote:

 On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:53:49 UTC, thebluepandabear 
 wrote:


 Apologies, Adkins can remove this.


  D Forum is very open and inclusive. Don't apologize, but don't 
 be uncivilized.
 Everyone is very relaxed and casual.


Those are amazing principles, good to hear.  🙂 Hopefully I will 
be able to get answers 😀
Nov 06 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/6/22 21:30, thebluepandabear wrote:


 whether or not D will keep politics out of programming


We try to stay on-topic on these newsgroups.


 it puts me off instantly


I think you will continue liking this community. :)

Ali
Nov 07 2022
parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 09:28:25 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 11/6/22 21:30, thebluepandabear wrote:


 whether or not D will keep politics out of programming


 We try to stay on-topic on these newsgroups.


 it puts me off instantly


 I think you will continue liking this community. :)

 Ali


Good to hear. Fantastic book as well (currently 1/7 of the way 
there)!
Nov 07 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent reply IGotD- <nise nise.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 I am just here asking whether or not D will keep politics out 
 of programming, et cetera, and look -- if D is political then I 
 have absolutely no issue, in fact I respect this decision 
 completely. It's just that when politics gets involved in 
 programming it puts me off instantly, so that's why I asked.


The only politics we discuss here is the politics surrounding the 
D management (basically. how the D project should be govern). 
Almost all topics are technical about D and compiler technology.

I been on the official rust forums as well like 
https://users.rust-lang.org/ and https://internals.rust-lang.org/ 
and to be honest I haven't seen anything political posts there.
Nov 07 2022
parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 10:17:09 UTC, IGotD- wrote:

 On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
 wrote:

 I am just here asking whether or not D will keep politics out 
 of programming, et cetera, and look -- if D is political then 
 I have absolutely no issue, in fact I respect this decision 
 completely. It's just that when politics gets involved in 
 programming it puts me off instantly, so that's why I asked.


 The only politics we discuss here is the politics surrounding 
 the D management (basically. how the D project should be 
 govern). Almost all topics are technical about D and compiler 
 technology.

 I been on the official rust forums as well like 
 https://users.rust-lang.org/ and 
 https://internals.rust-lang.org/ and to be honest I haven't 
 seen anything political posts there.


Hey thanks so much for answering,

I also have not seen any political statements from Rust forums. 
Most of it has been on their official Twitter page, at the start 
of version release notes, and the community. Rust has also - 
literally - stated that they are political in RustConf 2020. But 
best be respectful and not get into it as I am aware that people 
may have different opinions, my main question was whether D is 
political, which I now believe is not the case.
Nov 07 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh qfbox.info> writes:
On Mon, Nov 07, 2022 at 05:30:20AM +0000, thebluepandabear via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
[...]

 After that, I began to learn about all of the social justice/political
 statements that Rust was putting out over the last couple of years in
 regards to topics unrelated to programming, this made me feel very
 uncomfortable -- not necessarily because I disagreed with what they
 were saying (in fact I agreed with most statements), but mostly
 because I felt like  politics shouldn't be involved in a programming
 language.


+1, a programming language is a programming language, politics belong
elsewhere.


[...]

 I am just here asking whether or not D will keep politics out of
 programming, et cetera, and look -- if D is political then I have
 absolutely no issue, in fact I respect this decision completely. It's
 just that when politics gets involved in programming it puts me off
 instantly, so that's why I asked.


[...]

In the 10+ years I've been here, I have not been aware of any politics
in D other than the politics surrounding the management of D itself.  I
would also be extremely turned off if politics crept into D. IMO,
politics has no place in programming languages. A programming language
should remain a technical tool, and not be mired in political statements
or positions that have nothing to do with the technical merits of the
language itself.


T

-- 
Without outlines, life would be pointless.
Nov 07 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
While many of us have strong political opinions, we consider politics to be 
off-topic and not welcome in the D forums.

Just bring professional demeanor, check any non-D agendas at the door, and 
you're welcome here!
Nov 07 2022
next sibling parent reply thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 19:22:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 While many of us have strong political opinions, we consider 
 politics to be off-topic and not welcome in the D forums.

 Just bring professional demeanor, check any non-D agendas at 
 the door, and you're welcome here!


Thanks for answering, fantastic work with the D language as well 
(you are a legend).

I was mostly asking in terms of whether or not the D foundation 
itself will talk about any political statements or has any 
political goals outside of D. Most of the political talk in Rust 
wasn't really on the forums (because that's common sense) but 
more in the community, Twitter page, version release notes, 
community, et cetera.
Nov 07 2022
next sibling parent reply kyle <kyle kyle.kyle> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 22:00:48 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 19:22:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 While many of us have strong political opinions, we consider 
 politics to be off-topic and not welcome in the D forums.

 Just bring professional demeanor, check any non-D agendas at 
 the door, and you're welcome here!


 Thanks for answering, fantastic work with the D language as 
 well (you are a legend).

 I was mostly asking in terms of whether or not the D foundation 
 itself will talk about any political statements or has any 
 political goals outside of D. Most of the political talk in 
 Rust wasn't really on the forums (because that's common sense) 
 but more in the community, Twitter page, version release notes, 
 community, et cetera.


I've been lurking around here since ~2014 and I don't recall 
seeing any of that. Without a big corporate driver behind it D 
development is largely community-driven and I'm under the 
impression that the community is ideologically diverse enough 
that a substantial portion of us would get angry if the 
foundation used D to push a particular narrative or cause.

I stay away from Twitter and Reddit though so I wouldn't know 
what's going on there. Political discussion may occasionally 
happen during online BeerConfs but that's a different deal.
Nov 07 2022
parent reply thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
Great to hear that D is community driven and does not have any 
political goals, thanks for the answers everyone. Apologies for 
going a bit off topic as well.

I think my question has been answered! I am excited to get into 
this language as it seems very cool (and underrated).
Nov 07 2022
parent reply German Diago <germandiago gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 04:14:15 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:


 I think my question has been answered! I am excited to get into 
 this language as it seems very cool (and underrated).


I have been following D for over 10 years, Rust, Swift and others 
as alternatives to C++. D is small, but, coming from C++, it 
looks like the natural transition to me, expecially for these 
reasons (that no other language seems to do better):

- superior metaprogramming
- smooth transition from C++
- high C/C++ compatibility
- powerful compile-time metaprogramming


The only caveat seems to be that the ecosystem needs some love. 
But it is a perfectly fine alternative for many cases I guess. I 
think I will try my next project with D to see how it really 
feels to bring something into life from start to end.
Nov 07 2022
parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 07:57:18 UTC, German Diago wrote:

 On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 04:14:15 UTC, thebluepandabear 
 wrote:


 I think my question has been answered! I am excited to get 
 into this language as it seems very cool (and underrated).


 I have been following D for over 10 years, Rust, Swift and 
 others as alternatives to C++. D is small, but, coming from 
 C++, it looks like the natural transition to me, expecially for 
 these reasons (that no other language seems to do better):

 - superior metaprogramming
 - smooth transition from C++
 - high C/C++ compatibility
 - powerful compile-time metaprogramming


 The only caveat seems to be that the ecosystem needs some love. 
 But it is a perfectly fine alternative for many cases I guess. 
 I think I will try my next project with D to see how it really 
 feels to bring something into life from start to end.


I agree, the ecosystem for D is underdeveloped compared to other 
languages.

But, I think D has potential nonetheless.

We all need to start somewhere.
Nov 08 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 22:00:48 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 I was mostly asking in terms of whether or not the D foundation 
 itself will talk about any political statements or has any 
 political goals outside of D.


The D Language Foundation has no political agenda. The agenda is 
100% D.
Nov 07 2022
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/7/2022 2:00 PM, thebluepandabear wrote:

 I was mostly asking in terms of whether or not the D foundation itself will
talk 
 about any political statements or has any political goals outside of D.


Not as long as I'm the CEO.
Nov 08 2022
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
I forgot to add that if forum members prefer to use a pseudonym, we respect
that 
and will not attempt to unmask them.
Nov 08 2022
parent reply Elon Musk <owner twitter.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 22:51:42 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 I forgot to add that if forum members prefer to use a 
 pseudonym, we respect that and will not attempt to unmask them.


Thank you for this.
Nov 08 2022
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/8/2022 3:03 PM, Elon Musk wrote:

 On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 22:51:42 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 I forgot to add that if forum members prefer to use a pseudonym, we respect 
 that and will not attempt to unmask them.


 
 Thank you for this.


All you Rust/Zig/C++ developers secretly using D are safe here!
Nov 08 2022
parent Imperatorn <johan_forsberg_86 hotmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 23:30:15 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/8/2022 3:03 PM, Elon Musk wrote:

 On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 22:51:42 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:

 I forgot to add that if forum members prefer to use a 
 pseudonym, we respect that and will not attempt to unmask 
 them.


 
 Thank you for this.


 All you Rust/Zig/C++ developers secretly using D are safe here!


🤣
Nov 09 2022
prev sibling parent reply thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 22:31:44 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/7/2022 2:00 PM, thebluepandabear wrote:

 I was mostly asking in terms of whether or not the D 
 foundation itself will talk about any political statements or 
 has any political goals outside of D.


 Not as long as I'm the CEO.


Thanks for the reply. I think I have wasted people's time here by 
asking this and gone completely off topic (which I apologize 
for), so I think that this thread can be closed.
Nov 08 2022
next sibling parent rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 09/11/2022 12:50 PM, thebluepandabear wrote:

 Thanks for the reply. I think I have wasted people's time here by asking 
 this and gone completely off topic (which I apologize for), so I think 
 that this thread can be closed.


Its alright.

As I said on Discord originally, this is a perfectly reasonable question 
to ask :)
Nov 08 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 11/8/22 15:50, thebluepandabear wrote:


 wasted people's time


[...]

 this thread can be closed.


While we're at it, :) this thread cannot be closed because these 
"forums" are actually newsgroups.

Ali
Nov 08 2022
parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 00:33:55 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 11/8/22 15:50, thebluepandabear wrote:


 wasted people's time


 [...]

 this thread can be closed.


 While we're at it, :) this thread cannot be closed because 
 these "forums" are actually newsgroups.

 Ali


Ah ok, wasn't aware that -- thanks for letting me know folks 😀
Nov 08 2022
prev sibling parent monkyyy <crazymonkyyy gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 23:50:51 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 for), so I think that this thread can be closed.


This forum has always been off topic prone; that wont work
Nov 08 2022
prev sibling parent torhu <torhu yahoo.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 19:22:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 While many of us have strong political opinions, we consider 
 politics to be off-topic and not welcome in the D forums.

 Just bring professional demeanor, check any non-D agendas at 
 the door, and you're welcome here!


That's reassuring to hear! I'm really put off by people that want 
to infuse their politics into everything. It doesn't help that 
those people tend to have radical views that are not grounded in 
reality either. From what I've seen the D community is still 
dominated by reasonable and tolerant people, which is good.
Nov 09 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent reply max haughton <maxhaton gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 (If this message is off-topic/disallowed I apologize dearly, 
 and please feel free to remove this post if this is the case.)

 [...]


You may use D as long as you support the People's Front of Judea
Nov 07 2022
parent torhu <torhu yahoo.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 21:06:40 UTC, max haughton wrote:

 On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
 wrote:

 (If this message is off-topic/disallowed I apologize dearly, 
 and please feel free to remove this post if this is the case.)

 [...]


 You may use D as long as you support the People's Front of Judea


Surely you mean the Judean People's Front..? :p
Nov 09 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Quirin Schroll <qs.il.paperinik gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 For the next couple of days I was trying very hard to find an 
 apolitical language to learn instead of Rust, and I stumbled 
 across D. D seemed like a good language to learn and I saw that 
 the community was *extremely* nice, although I am not sure 
 whether D is an apolitical language (or whether they have been 
 involved politically).


D and the forum are as apolitical as it could be. Probably, I 
would not mind the D Language Foundation reaching out to 
politicians because of problems in the industry that change in 
regulation might fix.

I was here in 2016/17 and 2020/21 when American presidential 
elections took place, which were probably the most political 
events in the recent past concerning an English-language forum. I 
don’t remember vividly what was here in 2016/17, but I guess I 
would if the forum had been full of posts regarding the election. 
In 2020/21, I remember discussions about politics almost 
everywhere, but in this forum, people were pleasantly happy to 
ignore American politics. **To me, it was a place I could go to 
to get away from it.** I remember seeing one thread; this here is 
the second political thread on this forum I stumbled upon (I 
consider this a political thread, even if it’s about politics in 
general). I very much do hold political opinions as probably a 
lot of people here do, but it seems **all** forum posters 
self-evidently understand that here is not the proper place for 
it. I’ve not witnessed Walter or anyone else in management ever 
needing to keep politics out of the forum.


 I am just here asking whether or not D will keep politics out 
 of programming, et cetera, and look – if D is political then I 
 have absolutely no issue, in fact I respect this decision 
 completely. It's just that when politics gets involved in 
 programming it puts me off instantly, so that's why I asked.


I guess there is only one instance when talking about politics in 
a specialized forum like this is appropriate: When (proposed or 
implemented) regulations affect forums per se or the topics it’s 
concerned with.
Nov 08 2022
next sibling parent IGotD- <nise nise.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 10:46:55 UTC, Quirin Schroll wrote:

 I was here in 2016/17 and 2020/21 when American presidential 
 elections took place, which were probably the most political 
 events in the recent past concerning an English-language forum.


I'm not sure if this is about party politics. I decided look at 
RustConf 2020 just in order to understand what this is all about.

https://youtu.be/IwPRu5FhfIQ?t=1479

This presentation is not really about party politics but more 
that they claim using politics in order for them to reach their 
goal, that is politics is a tool. They did not mention anything 
regarding politics connected to any country/state government. The 
conference is more similar to a big corporate event where CEO/CTO 
talks with big words how wonderful their company/products are and 
*insert big words* in order to achieve their business goals.

I haven't followed the Rust community everywhere so I can't say 
if it more political on other channels. Going through posts on 
Twitter would take too long time for me.

There is a cppcon talk that is more political to me and that is 
where they reference early 1900 century communist intellectuals 
in order to "change" C++. This talk is more political to me than 
I've found in Rust. I couldn't find this one on Youtube anymore, 
maybe you are better than me.

Are there political undertones among programmers that they cannot 
suppress during official presentations? Maybe that's the case.

In the case of D, it's kind of inverted that we almost lack the 
non-technical staff. Almost all of the people here have a 
software engineering background which means that for example 
compared to Rust we are lousy at marketing or understanding the 
needs of all the different types of programming/programmers.
Nov 08 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/8/2022 2:46 AM, Quirin Schroll wrote:

 I’ve not witnessed Walter or anyone else in 
 management ever needing to keep politics out of the forum.


It's been years since we've had to do this, but we just delete them.
Nov 08 2022
prev sibling parent reply Quirin Schroll <qs.il.paperinik gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 10:46:55 UTC, Quirin Schroll wrote:

 [snip]


I forgot that I’ve seen DIP drafts that used *her* pronouns to 
refer to an abstract programmer. I’d consider that overtly 
politically motivated. My personal taste is not even deciding 
between generic *he* and the recently emerging, yet disputed 
among linguists, “singular” *they* and just go with *they* and 
use the plural *programmers.*

However, I cannot remember seeing it in the forum.
Nov 09 2022
next sibling parent reply Nick Treleaven <nick geany.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 14:01:38 UTC, Quirin Schroll 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 10:46:55 UTC, Quirin Schroll 
 wrote:

 [snip]


 I forgot that I’ve seen DIP drafts that used *her* pronouns to 
 refer to an abstract programmer. I’d consider that overtly 
 politically motivated. My personal taste is not even deciding 
 between generic *he* and the recently emerging, yet disputed 
 among linguists, “singular” *they* and just go with *they* and 
 use the plural *programmers.*


He should not be considered generic in modern writing. Using he 
or she is equally wrong if gender is not literally intended. Just 
use something like 'the programmer' or 'the user'. The official D 
website does not use he as far as I'm aware, at least not in the 
spec.

This is not political, this is about being factually correct and 
not anachronistic.
Nov 09 2022
parent reply torhu <torhu yahoo.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 14:50:08 UTC, Nick Treleaven 
wrote:


 This is not political, this is about being factually correct 
 and not anachronistic.



I'm pretty sure this is politics dressed as "facts". It's 
something to be mindful of. Words can have subtle differences of 
meaning depending on context, and this changes and evolves over 
time, depending on what people have the need to express. Most 
people will understand "he" to mean "the person in question" in 
contexts where gender is of little relevance. If you are 
consciously aware of this it's easier to notice when someone is 
coming at it from an ideological place.
Nov 09 2022
parent reply rikki cattermole <rikki cattermole.co.nz> writes:
On 10/11/2022 4:25 AM, torhu wrote:

 On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 14:50:08 UTC, Nick Treleaven wrote:
 

 This is not political, this is about being factually correct and not 
 anachronistic.


 
 I'm pretty sure this is politics dressed as "facts". It's something to 
 be mindful of. Words can have subtle differences of meaning depending on 
 context, and this changes and evolves over time, depending on what 
 people have the need to express. Most people will understand "he" to 
 mean "the person in question" in contexts where gender is of little 
 relevance. If you are consciously aware of this it's easier to notice 
 when someone is coming at it from an ideological place.


Regardless, lets not erase people by using pronouns that greatly favor 
in specificity one set of people over another. When we are not speaking 
about specific people.

"they" is a great way to be inclusive, and generally speaking not offend 
anyone :)

Everyone is welcome here, if their goal is to use D. Lets not push 
people away over wanting to hold on to language that favors one portion 
of the population over another.
Nov 09 2022
next sibling parent torhu <torhu yahoo.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 17:10:28 UTC, rikki cattermole 
wrote:


 Regardless, lets not erase people by using pronouns that 
 greatly favor in specificity one set of people over another. 
 When we are not speaking about specific people.

 "they" is a great way to be inclusive, and generally speaking 
 not offend anyone :)

 Everyone is welcome here, if their goal is to use D. Lets not 
 push people away over wanting to hold on to language that 
 favors one portion of the population over another.


Noone is being "erased", or favored, and pretending to be 
offended is a tactic used by narcissists and manipulative people. 
In a healthy community, that's not behavior that you want to 
encourage.
Nov 09 2022
prev sibling parent reply Araq <rumpf_a web.de> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 17:10:28 UTC, rikki cattermole 
wrote:

 Regardless, lets not erase people by using pronouns that 
 greatly favor in specificity one set of people over another. 
 When we are not speaking about specific people.

 "they" is a great way to be inclusive, and generally speaking 
 not offend anyone :)

 Everyone is welcome here, if their goal is to use D. Lets not 
 push people away over wanting to hold on to language that 
 favors one portion of the population over another.


"They" is highly offensive to me fwiw as it's completely against 
the English grammar that I learned at school. Singular 3rd person 
form of to "be" is "is". Do you say "they is"? No you don't, ergo 
it cannot be a singular form.

There is nothing "inclusive" about wrong English. I've heard 
"they" used incorrectly about a million times now. It will never 
sound correct to me no matter how often I hear it.
Nov 09 2022
next sibling parent Paulo Pinto <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 19:52:47 UTC, Araq wrote:

 On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 17:10:28 UTC, rikki cattermole 
 wrote:

 [...]


 "They" is highly offensive to me fwiw as it's completely 
 against the English grammar that I learned at school. Singular 
 3rd person form of to "be" is "is". Do you say "they is"? No 
 you don't, ergo it cannot be a singular form.

 There is nothing "inclusive" about wrong English. I've heard 
 "they" used incorrectly about a million times now. It will 
 never sound correct to me no matter how often I hear it.


Actually this is proper Queen's English dating back to the 14th 
century for first written cases of such use.
Nov 09 2022
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
This thread is descending into politics. Please stop.
Nov 09 2022
parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 21:18:33 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

 This thread is descending into politics. Please stop.


I woke up this morning, went to work, checked the forums on my 
iPhone, and instantly regretted not having shut this thread down 
immediately after Walter's post above.

This thread was a blinding example of why we don't want politics, 
or social issues, or religion, discussed in these forums. It's 
not because we don't care about any of that, but because they 
easily derail into flamefests.

Any further posts in this thread will be deleted.

Thanks!
Nov 16 2022
prev sibling next sibling parent reply IGotD- <nise nise.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 14:01:38 UTC, Quirin Schroll 
wrote:

 I forgot that I’ve seen DIP drafts that used *her* pronouns to 
 refer to an abstract programmer. I’d consider that overtly 
 politically motivated. My personal taste is not even deciding 
 between generic *he* and the recently emerging, yet disputed 
 among linguists, “singular” *they* and just go with *they* and 
 use the plural *programmers.*


Using "he", "she" or "they" in a technical paper without 
referring what that means is an error, similar to a dangling 
motivator error. You can use "the raccoon" if you want to but you 
must explain what that means in the text. Using "the user" might 
also need a clarification, like the end user/customer of a 
particular library. In legal documents this is even more 
important in order to avoid ambiguities.

In my opinion, using he/she/they in technical documentations 
should be avoided as far as possible and it also looks amateurish.
Nov 09 2022
parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
Guys, please let's not get into a debate around these things, 
there are more important things to worry/talk about.
Nov 09 2022
prev sibling parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 14:01:38 UTC, Quirin Schroll 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 10:46:55 UTC, Quirin Schroll 
 wrote:

 [snip]


 I forgot that I’ve seen DIP drafts that used *her* pronouns to 
 refer to an abstract programmer. I’d consider that overtly 
 politically motivated. My personal taste is not even deciding 
 between generic *he* and the recently emerging, yet disputed 
 among linguists, “singular” *they* and just go with *they* and 
 use the plural *programmers.*

 However, I cannot remember seeing it in the forum.


Hm, yeah -- I would consider that to have political undertone, 
but at least it was only a draft and wasn't actually released.
Nov 09 2022
prev sibling parent reply Filip <filipmymail gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 After that, I began to learn about all of the social 
 justice/political statements that Rust was putting out over the 
 last couple of years in regards to topics unrelated to 
 programming, this made me feel very uncomfortable -- not 
 necessarily because I disagreed with what they were saying (in 
 fact I agreed with most statements), but mostly because I felt 
 like  politics shouldn't be involved in a programming language.


I'm surprised to learn that rust isn't apolitical, I made an 
account to say this haha
Nov 08 2022
parent reply thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 21:58:36 UTC, Filip wrote:

 On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
 wrote:

 After that, I began to learn about all of the social 
 justice/political statements that Rust was putting out over 
 the last couple of years in regards to topics unrelated to 
 programming, this made me feel very uncomfortable -- not 
 necessarily because I disagreed with what they were saying (in 
 fact I agreed with most statements), but mostly because I felt 
 like  politics shouldn't be involved in a programming language.


 I'm surprised to learn that rust isn't apolitical, I made an 
 account to say this haha


Hey,

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Rust is political, as in 
encourages users to donate to a certain party/candidate, they are 
just heavily invested in social issues outside of programming. 
Some of these social issues I agree with, whilst others I do not.

What I am trying to say is that many of these issues people do 
not think the same, so it can create arguments in the community.

E.g.: https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/issues/613; 
https://users.rust-lang.org/t/rust-says-tech-will-always-be-political/43627?page=3
Nov 08 2022
parent thebluepandabear <therealbluepandabear protonmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 22:20:40 UTC, thebluepandabear 
wrote:

 On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 21:58:36 UTC, Filip wrote:

 On Monday, 7 November 2022 at 05:30:20 UTC, thebluepandabear 
 wrote:

 After that, I began to learn about all of the social 
 justice/political statements that Rust was putting out over 
 the last couple of years in regards to topics unrelated to 
 programming, this made me feel very uncomfortable -- not 
 necessarily because I disagreed with what they were saying 
 (in fact I agreed with most statements), but mostly because I 
 felt like  politics shouldn't be involved in a programming 
 language.


 I'm surprised to learn that rust isn't apolitical, I made an 
 account to say this haha


 Hey,

 I wouldn't go as far as saying that Rust is political, as in 
 encourages users to donate to a certain party/candidate, they 
 are just heavily invested in social issues outside of 
 programming. Some of these social issues I agree with, whilst 
 others I do not.

 What I am trying to say is that many of these issues people do 
 not think the same, so it can create arguments in the community.

 E.g.: 
 https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/issues/613; 
 https://users.rust-lang.org/t/rust-says-tech-will-always-be-political/43627?page=3


As a sidenote, I believe that social issues are outside the scope 
of a programming language. People ought to understand that there 
is a time and a place. Posting about social justice issues in a 
programming community is just inappropriate in my opinion, 
especially when it comes to topics in which only one side of the 
political spectrum supports.
Nov 08 2022