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digitalmars.D - Dejavu

reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
I don't know if anyone else shares similar feelings to me, but I've 
recently been getting feelings of dejavu with respect to peoples 
perceptions of the future of D. I wondered if it was just me, it seems 
that I had been reading similar things again and again though.

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/The_proper_case_for_D._92245.html
http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?art_group=digitalmars.D&article_id=92367
http://www.jfbillingsley.com/blog/?p=53
http://h3.team0xf.com/devlog/?p=16

These are just some of the posts I've read, which all seem to have given 
(or triggered) similar feelings about the state of D, although I'm sure 
if I tried I could find a bunch of others.

These opinions keep coming up, but from what I've read, very little 
action is being taken. As mentioned in Tomasz's blog post, some progress 
seem to be being made with respect to D, the likes of QtD and Descent 
appearing, I'm not convinced enough is happening though. If what I've 
read is correct, D2 will be marked as stable later this year alongside 
the release of TDPL, and there are still a number of issues which I 
believe will prevent D from rising to its rightful place alongside C and 
C++.

== The Spec ==

Most notably is the incomplete/vague specification which is something 
we, the community, are able to fix. If we work together to identify and 
repair the parts of the specification which are lacking (quite a lot of 
which is already identified in bugzilla), we could build up a new, more 
complete, version of the specification which could then be submitted to 
Walter for review. This needs to be done before D2 is marked as stable, 
as I doubt any larger modifications would be accepted after TDPL is 
published and D2 is stable.

== The toolchain ==

The next issue that seems to come up time and time again is the current 
state of the D toolchain. I believe the biggest issue most people have 
with this is OPTLINK, something I personally have never had any trouble 
with! (Yes, I am a linux user :P). Fixing this is somewhat more 
difficult, as it requires either: Putting pressure on Walter to fix it 
(I personally believe his time is better spent working on the compiler); 
Finding/writing a linker that supports OMF that could replace OPTLINK; 
or adding support for COFF to dmd. If this is to be achieved by us, huge 
amounts of effort will be required, although my knowledge on this topic 
is limited, having never encountered it first hand.

=== Phobos/Tango ===

I'll keep this short, as if D2 *is* just around the corner then this 
isn't too much of an issue (for now). What is important is that Phobos 2 
is complete. I believe another possibility if completion is not possible 
before D2 is marked stable is to separate D and phobos. At the point of 
D2's release there should be a complete feature set listed, if not 
implemented/complete. This will allow Phobos 2 to be completed on a 
larger time scale, and if we provide input on what we would like to be 
in the final phobos 2, then we won't/shouldn't have issues later on with 
another standard library/runtime being created as was the case in D1.

=== Debuggers ===

While I have had no problems debugging D apps, I believe there is still 
a lot more that could be done. Getting the patches to gdb into the main 
gdb distribution would be a huge step, at least for linux/osx/bsd etc. I 
am also lead to believe that dmd does not output the correct debug 
information on linux (from Jarrett's post, I haven't experienced this 
first hand), if this is correct a patch needs to be made and submitted 
in bugzilla.

=== IDEs ===

I don't really need to say much here, Descent seems to be getting along 
nicely. Needless to say I'm sure Ary would love any help we can give to 
improve it!

=== Build tools ===

OK, I'll admit, I just copied/pasted Jarrett's information here:

Build tools.  D’s module system makes it a natural candidate for 
automatic dependency detection, and some make-replacements have sprung 
up to that effect.  Bu[il]d, DSSS/Rebuild, and now xfBuild are the main 
contenders.  Some other minor ones include jake and di0xide (D0xD? 
deeoxid?  I can’t remember what clever spelling it uses).  Bud hasn’t 
been updated in a long time, which is annoying, since there are some 
really irritating bugs.  DSSS/Rebuild haven’t been worked on in several 
months since the maintainer went to grad school and stopped having time. 
  xfBuild is very new.  Installing and using any of them can be kind of 
an adventure, just like anything else in the D toolchain.

=== Installing ===

Leading on from Jarrett's comments, installing a full toolchain is... 
well... not easy. Again, this is improving, with the likes of the 
nightly ubuntu packages of ldc and qtd, it would be good if we could 
come up with a way of allowing a full toolchain to be as easily 
installable on all systems.


I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and hopefully 
inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds. I'm sorry if 
I've got any of my information incorrect or if I've just rambled on 
anywhere. I think D is a great language, and I'd hate for it to fail. 
After reading multiple posts where issues have been brought up but not 
taken anywhere, I thought I'd take a shot at it.

Robert
Jun 25 2009
next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:44:04 +0100, Robert Clipsham wrote:


 Bud hasn’t 
 been updated in a long time, which is annoying, since there are some 
 really irritating bugs. 


Like what? Have these been reported?


-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 25 2009
parent reply Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Derek Parnell<derek psych.ward> wrote:

 On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:44:04 +0100, Robert Clipsham wrote:


 Bud hasn=92t
 been updated in a long time, which is annoying, since there are some
 really irritating bugs.


 Like what? Have these been reported?


All of the bugs I've run into in bud have already been reported by
others.  The .def file issue in particular makes it impossible for me
to use bud for some Windows apps:

http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3D2475

I have no idea how to create an rdf file as okibi mentioned.
Jun 25 2009
parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:28:53 -0400, Jarrett Billingsley wrote:


 All of the bugs I've run into in bud have already been reported by
 others. 


I think I know what I'm doing this weekend ;-)

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 25 2009
parent reply Tim Matthews <tim.matthews7 gmail.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:28:53 -0400, Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 

 All of the bugs I've run into in bud have already been reported by
 others. 


 
 I think I know what I'm doing this weekend ;-)
 


Fixup bud? If so thanks a lot.

Did you take note of what I said in d.learn under a subject named "Tango 
Jake or other build system for Linux". It appears .di files are passed 
incorrectly which made bud not suitable for projects built with gtkd.
Jun 25 2009
parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:55:32 +1200, Tim Matthews wrote:


 Did you take note of what I said in d.learn under a subject named "Tango 
 Jake or other build system for Linux". 


Actually I tried hard to ingore that one ... just kidding :-)

I might have to come back to you on this one. I'll try to reproduce it but
not sure if I can yet. I don't really want to download gtk or tango if I
can help it.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 25 2009
parent Michael P. <baseball.mjp gmail.com> writes:
Derek Parnell Wrote:


 On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:55:32 +1200, Tim Matthews wrote:
 

 Did you take note of what I said in d.learn under a subject named "Tango 
 Jake or other build system for Linux". 


 
 Actually I tried hard to ingore that one ... just kidding :-)
 
 I might have to come back to you on this one. I'll try to reproduce it but
 not sure if I can yet. I don't really want to download gtk or tango if I
 can help it.
 
 -- 
 Derek Parnell
 Melbourne, Australia
 skype: derek.j.parnell


Bud/Build doesn't build from the source either.
http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4641
Jun 25 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent Michel Fortin <michel.fortin michelf.com> writes:
On 2009-06-25 15:44:04 -0400, Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> said:


 === IDEs ===


I have plans to improve D for Xcode... its biggest flaw right now is 
that it only works with GDC. I'm just waiting until I have an Intel Mac 
(soon), because DMD not working on mine is somewhat bothersome for 
integrating it with my Xcode plugin.



 === Installing ===
 
 Leading on from Jarrett's comments, installing a full toolchain is... 
 well... not easy.


I'd like to have an installer for my D plugin for Xcode that would 
install the whole toolchain on Mac OS X (similar to whow the Xcode 
Tools installer installs gcc, ld, etc.). I've almost made one that 
works with some build of GDC from SVN, but GDC being abandoned 
discouraged me from finalizing it. I'd like to do that instead with DMD 
once D for Xcode supports it (with Walter's permission).


-- 
Michel Fortin
michel.fortin michelf.com
http://michelf.com/
Jun 25 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent digited <digited yandex.ru> writes:
Robert Clipsham Wrote:

di0xide (D0xD? deeoxid?  I can’t remember what clever spelling it uses)


dee0xd (or just dxd)
Jun 25 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply digited <digited yandex.ru> writes:
Robert Clipsham Wrote:

 === IDEs ===


Poseidon also has a great potential (written in D & DWT - fast & small),
especially the Tango trunk/DWT win trunk: keinfarbton did a great work. I
suppose, in perspective, Poseidon can run on any platform, supported by
Tango+DWT. This good IDE should definitely be improved & supported.
Jun 25 2009
parent Paul D. Anderson <paul.d.removethis.anderson comcast.andthis.net> writes:
digited Wrote:


 Robert Clipsham Wrote:

 === IDEs ===


 
 Poseidon also has a great potential (written in D & DWT - fast & small),
especially the Tango trunk/DWT win trunk: keinfarbton did a great work. I
suppose, in perspective, Poseidon can run on any platform, supported by
Tango+DWT. This good IDE should definitely be improved & supported.


vote++
Jun 26 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Robert Clipsham wrote:

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and hopefully 
 inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.


Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!
Jun 26 2009
next sibling parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Robert Clipsham wrote:

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and
 hopefully inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.


 
 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!


On a semi-related note, someone came on IRC today asking about the wc
example in the D2 pages.  It's broken since it hasn't been updated since
the pages were split.  I was going to fix the code, but the DDoc source
of the website is, afaik, not available, so I just posted a patch instead.

Would it be possible to make the DDoc source for the D documentation
available?  Maybe you could use it as a test-case for source control.
Jun 26 2009
parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:

 
 Walter Bright wrote:

 Robert Clipsham wrote:

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and
 hopefully inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.


 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!


 
 On a semi-related note, someone came on IRC today asking about the wc
 example in the D2 pages.  It's broken since it hasn't been updated since
 the pages were split.  I was going to fix the code, but the DDoc source
 of the website is, afaik, not available, so I just posted a patch instead.
 
 Would it be possible to make the DDoc source for the D documentation
 available?  Maybe you could use it as a test-case for source control.


It's in phobos/docsrc.
Jun 26 2009
next sibling parent reply Justin Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
== Quote from Don (nospam nospam.com)'s article
...

 On a semi-related note, someone came on IRC today asking about the
 wc example in the D2 pages.  It's broken since it hasn't been
 updated since the pages were split.  I was going to fix the code,
 but the DDoc source of the website is, afaik, not available, so I
 just posted a patch instead.

 Would it be possible to make the DDoc source for the D
 documentation available?  Maybe you could use it as a test-case
 for source control.


 It's in phobos/docsrc.


I found http://www.dsource.org/projects/phobos/browser/trunk/docsrc/wc.dd
(which I assume to be for the D 2.x Spec).

So where is the source for the D 1.x Spec? It might be helpful to
have those files in the SVN, too.
Jun 26 2009
next sibling parent Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Justin Calvarese wrote:

 == Quote from Don (nospam nospam.com)'s article
 ....

 On a semi-related note, someone came on IRC today asking about the
 wc example in the D2 pages.  It's broken since it hasn't been
 updated since the pages were split.  I was going to fix the code,
 but the DDoc source of the website is, afaik, not available, so I
 just posted a patch instead.

 Would it be possible to make the DDoc source for the D
 documentation available?  Maybe you could use it as a test-case
 for source control.


 It's in phobos/docsrc.


 
 I found http://www.dsource.org/projects/phobos/browser/trunk/docsrc/wc.dd
 (which I assume to be for the D 2.x Spec).
 
 So where is the source for the D 1.x Spec? It might be helpful to
 have those files in the SVN, too.


Thanks, both of you.  I'd completely forgotten phobos was in dsource's
svn and even then I'd assumed that all publicly available source was
included in the DMD zips.
Jun 26 2009
prev sibling parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Justin,



 I found
 http://www.dsource.org/projects/phobos/browser/trunk/docsrc/wc.dd
 (which I assume to be for the D 2.x Spec).
 
 So where is the source for the D 1.x Spec? It might be helpful to have
 those files in the SVN, too.
 


Last time I checked, that was both, the version differences are handled with 
DDoc macros.
Jun 26 2009
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
BCS wrote:

 Last time I checked, that was both, the version differences are handled 
 with DDoc macros.


That's right.
Jun 26 2009
prev sibling parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:28:05 +0200, Don wrote:


 Daniel Keep wrote:

 
 Walter Bright wrote:

 Robert Clipsham wrote:

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and
 hopefully inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.


 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!


 
 On a semi-related note, someone came on IRC today asking about the wc
 example in the D2 pages.  It's broken since it hasn't been updated since
 the pages were split.  I was going to fix the code, but the DDoc source
 of the website is, afaik, not available, so I just posted a patch instead.
 
 Would it be possible to make the DDoc source for the D documentation
 available?  Maybe you could use it as a test-case for source control.


 It's in phobos/docsrc.


What does "in phobos/docsrc" mean? Is that a partial URL or something that
is in the download package. In either case, I don't seem to be able to find
it. Can you be a lot more specific?

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 26 2009
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Steve Teale <steve.teale britseyeview.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:


 Robert Clipsham wrote:

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and hopefully 
 inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.


 
 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!


Walter,

But then if you do, my experience is that nobody is interested. OK, perhaps I'm
writing crap - I'm getting old and outdated, but you don't even get told that
except by Superdan.

If someone has done as you suggest, what is the mechanism for moving it toward
the D mainstream?

Where do you post it, who do you send it to, who is the judge, and where is the
verdict posted?

D should try to avoid being like Iran!

Steve
Jun 26 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Steve Teale wrote:

 Walter Bright Wrote:
 

 Robert Clipsham wrote:

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and
 hopefully inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.
 


 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on
 it!


 
 Walter,
 
 But then if you do, my experience is that nobody is interested. OK,
 perhaps I'm writing crap - I'm getting old and outdated, but you
 don't even get told that except by Superdan.
 
 If someone has done as you suggest, what is the mechanism for moving
 it toward the D mainstream?
 
 Where do you post it, who do you send it to, who is the judge, and
 where is the verdict posted?
 
 D should try to avoid being like Iran!


Here's one example Robert mentioned: getting D support into the GDB main 
source. That doesn't require anything from me or anyone else. It 
requires someone to doggedly push the changes to the people who control GDB.

It's not a big job - the GDB patches already exist.

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10142

But it's a high leverage issue, meaning it'll be a big win for D's 
acceptance and credibility.
Jun 26 2009
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <llucax gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright, el 26 de junio a las 12:30 me escribiste:

Where do you post it, who do you send it to, who is the judge, and
where is the verdict posted?
D should try to avoid being like Iran!


 
 Here's one example Robert mentioned: getting D support into the GDB main
source. That doesn't require anything from me or anyone else. It requires
someone to 
 doggedly push the changes to the people who control GDB.
 
 It's not a big job - the GDB patches already exist.
 
 http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10142
 
 But it's a high leverage issue, meaning it'll be a big win for D's
 acceptance and credibility.


I have tried to push the patches on[1], but sadly never got an answer from
the original author. Again, some D-related stuff got abandoned, I don't
know, maybe D is damned =/

I guess someone has to rewrite those patches to be able to integrate them
in GDB (or try harder to find the patches author).

[1] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10142

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (luca) | Blog colectivo: http://www.mazziblog.com.ar/blog/
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- Ser aguja, nada más, y cumplir su misión.
	-- Ricardo Vaporeso
Jun 26 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 Walter Bright, el 26 de junio a las 12:30 me escribiste:

 Where do you post it, who do you send it to, who is the judge, and
 where is the verdict posted?
 D should try to avoid being like Iran!


 Here's one example Robert mentioned: getting D support into the GDB main
source. That doesn't require anything from me or anyone else. It requires
someone to 
 doggedly push the changes to the people who control GDB.

 It's not a big job - the GDB patches already exist.

 http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10142

 But it's a high leverage issue, meaning it'll be a big win for D's
 acceptance and credibility.


 
 I have tried to push the patches on[1], but sadly never got an answer from
 the original author. Again, some D-related stuff got abandoned, I don't
 know, maybe D is damned =/
 
 I guess someone has to rewrite those patches to be able to integrate them
 in GDB (or try harder to find the patches author).
 
 [1] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10142
 



The ones less than 10 lines don't need to be rewritten, just the longer 
ones. It still should be a straightforward job, there isn't that much of 
it. That's why I suggest it is the ideal project for someone wanting to 
contribute to D - it's a small project with large positive consequences.
Jun 26 2009
parent reply smartmobili <anonymous nospam.fr> writes:
Walter Bright a écrit :

 Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 Walter Bright, el 26 de junio a las 12:30 me escribiste:

 Where do you post it, who do you send it to, who is the judge, and
 where is the verdict posted?
 D should try to avoid being like Iran!


 Here's one example Robert mentioned: getting D support into the GDB 
 main source. That doesn't require anything from me or anyone else. It 
 requires someone to doggedly push the changes to the people who 
 control GDB.

 It's not a big job - the GDB patches already exist.

 http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10142

 But it's a high leverage issue, meaning it'll be a big win for D's
 acceptance and credibility.


 I have tried to push the patches on[1], but sadly never got an answer 
 from
 the original author. Again, some D-related stuff got abandoned, I don't
 know, maybe D is damned =/

 I guess someone has to rewrite those patches to be able to integrate them
 in GDB (or try harder to find the patches author).

 [1] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10142


 
 
 The ones less than 10 lines don't need to be rewritten, just the longer 
 ones. It still should be a straightforward job, there isn't that much of 
 it. That's why I suggest it is the ideal project for someone wanting to 
 contribute to D - it's a small project with large positive consequences.


As long as D language is not available on more platforms it will be a 
dead language.
It's a pity that so many people are working on a language that will be 
only studied in compilation course. There something wrong with D 
development and I don't know exactly what. Before working on D 2.0 maybe 
you should work to make D 1.0 working on more targets with ide integration.
First I was very motivated by this new language but I am developper 
specialized in smartphones (wince, symbian, iphone) and I cannot even 
use it on these platforms.
If I was milionnair I would pay someone to work on GDC because this 
would be the first step for notoriety. Two years ago I generated a D 
cross-compiler targeting windows ce but now since gdc is not maitained I 
am not interested anymore in D.
I tried to talk about D language to some gcc hackers but they don't seem 
to be very interested.
I am waiting for new pragmatic projects, for instance I am watching ooc 
projet(http://ooc-lang.org/) that could be a good candidate for what I 
want to do.
So if you don't want D join other dead language at museum, please focus 
on simple things and make it availaible for all platforms.

PS : I don't want to start a war ;-) I am just disappointed that I still 
cannot use it on arm platforms and I am not the only one I think.
By the way what is the status of llvm D ?
And is there any remaining bug in D 1.0 ?
Jun 27 2009
parent reply Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:36 AM, smartmobili<anonymous nospam.fr> wrote:


 PS : I don't want to start a war ;-) I am just disappointed that I still
 cannot use it on arm platforms and I am not the only one I think.


I can and have.  Making an LDC cross-compiler for ARM is as simple as
building LDC with the 'arm' LLVM package and using the -march=arm
flag.  Now the ball's in your court to make a runtime that works on
one of these [closed, proprietary, wildly-varying and
non-posix-compliant] platforms.


 By the way what is the status of llvm D ?
 And is there any remaining bug in D 1.0 ?


No, not at all!  D 1.0 is _completely bug free_.
Of course it has bugs.  Are you kidding me?  Even Knuth's programs have bugs.
Jun 27 2009
parent reply smartmobili <anonymous nospam.fr> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley a écrit :

 On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:36 AM, smartmobili<anonymous nospam.fr> wrote:
 

 PS : I don't want to start a war ;-) I am just disappointed that I still
 cannot use it on arm platforms and I am not the only one I think.


 
 I can and have.  Making an LDC cross-compiler for ARM is as simple as
 building LDC with the 'arm' LLVM package and using the -march=arm
 flag.  Now the ball's in your court to make a runtime that works on
 one of these [closed, proprietary, wildly-varying and
 non-posix-compliant] platforms.
 

 By the way what is the status of llvm D ?
 And is there any remaining bug in D 1.0 ?


 
 No, not at all!  D 1.0 is _completely bug free_.
 Of course it has bugs.  Are you kidding me?  Even Knuth's programs have bugs.


bug was not the right word sorry maybe inconsitency is better.
Last time there was some issues with circular import or something like that.
Jun 27 2009
parent Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:40 AM, smartmobili<anonymous nospam.fr> wrote:

 Of course it has bugs. =A0Are you kidding me? =A0Even Knuth's programs h=




ave

 bugs.


 bug was not the right word sorry maybe inconsitency is better.
 Last time there was some issues with circular import or something like th=


at.

Yeah, that's a bug.  And it's still there.  Just have a look at the
open bugs in Bugzilla.
Jun 27 2009
prev sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:12:34 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:


 Robert Clipsham wrote:

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and hopefully 
 inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.


 
 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!


I've picked the docs. I'm attempting to remove all hardcoded HTML tags from
the .dd files. To what address do I send the updated files?

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 30 2009
parent reply BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:
Reply to Derek,


 On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:12:34 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Robert Clipsham wrote:
 

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and
 hopefully inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.
 


 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!
 


 I've picked the docs. I'm attempting to remove all hardcoded HTML tags
 from the .dd files. To what address do I send the updated files?
 


I'd e-mail patches to Walter or attach them to an issue in the issue tracker. 
Either way make sure Walter knows about them.
Jun 30 2009
next sibling parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:08:02 +0000 (UTC), BCS wrote:


 Reply to Derek,
 

 On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:12:34 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Robert Clipsham wrote:
 

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and
 hopefully inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.
 


 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!
 


 I've picked the docs. I'm attempting to remove all hardcoded HTML tags
 from the .dd files. To what address do I send the updated files?
 


 
 I'd e-mail patches to Walter or attach them to an issue in the issue tracker. 
 Either way make sure Walter knows about them.


I've tried (twice) to email them to newshound1 digitalmars.com but have not
receive any acknowledgement that they have been received so I don't
actually know if Mr B is getting them.

What I'd like is Walter to tell me/us where to send such things. I've
scanned the website for information but can't find anything there. 

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 30 2009
prev sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:08:02 +0000 (UTC), BCS wrote:


 Reply to Derek,
 

 On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:12:34 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Robert Clipsham wrote:
 

 I'd like to know what you think on each of these matters, and
 hopefully inspire us to take some action to make sure D succeeds.
 


 Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!
 


 I've picked the docs. I'm attempting to remove all hardcoded HTML tags
 from the .dd files. To what address do I send the updated files?
 


 
 I'd e-mail patches to Walter or attach them to an issue in the issue tracker. 
 Either way make sure Walter knows about them.


By the way, I'm using Windows so I don't know how to do a 'patch' file. I
don't know of any Microsoft supplied tool distributed with XP that creates
patch files. Any idea of how I can do this?

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 30 2009
parent reply BCS <none anon.com> writes:
Hello Derek,


 By the way, I'm using Windows so I don't know how to do a 'patch'
 file. I don't know of any Microsoft supplied tool distributed with XP
 that creates patch files. Any idea of how I can do this?
 


Use SVN. I'm assuming you got the .dd files that way. I think the command 
line tools will do it and I know tortoiseSVN can. It even tags the result 
with the version it's off of.
Jun 30 2009
parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:37:56 +0000 (UTC), BCS wrote:


 Hello Derek,
 

 By the way, I'm using Windows so I don't know how to do a 'patch'
 file. I don't know of any Microsoft supplied tool distributed with XP
 that creates patch files. Any idea of how I can do this?
 


 
 Use SVN. I'm assuming you got the .dd files that way. I think the command 
 line tools will do it and I know tortoiseSVN can. It even tags the result 
 with the version it's off of.


Thanks, that worked perfectly.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell
Jun 30 2009
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Robert Clipsham wrote:

 === Installing ===
 
 Leading on from Jarrett's comments, installing a full toolchain is... 
 well... not easy. Again, this is improving, with the likes of the 
 nightly ubuntu packages of ldc and qtd, it would be good if we could 
 come up with a way of allowing a full toolchain to be as easily 
 installable on all systems.


I posted a relevant announcement about this on the D.announce group.
Jun 27 2009
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <llucax gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright, el 27 de junio a las 16:06 me escribiste:

 Robert Clipsham wrote:

=== Installing ===
Leading on from Jarrett's comments, installing a full toolchain is... well...
not easy. Again, this is improving, with the likes of the nightly ubuntu 
packages of ldc and qtd, it would be good if we could come up with a way of
allowing a full toolchain to be as easily installable on all systems.


 
 I posted a relevant announcement about this on the D.announce group.


I think it would be great if LDC is listed in the D official website, GDC
is listed for example and it's way too obsolete. I think that can give the
impression that there is no working updated compiler other than DMD.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (luca) | Blog colectivo: http://www.mazziblog.com.ar/blog/
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Hace diez años tenía una visión
Pero nadie más la vió y hoy sigo pidiendo perdón
Jun 27 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 I think it would be great if LDC is listed in the D official website, GDC
 is listed for example and it's way too obsolete. I think that can give the
 impression that there is no working updated compiler other than DMD.



Sure. What url do you want me to use? Better yet, send me the text & link.
Jun 27 2009
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <llucax gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright, el 27 de junio a las 19:25 me escribiste:

 Leandro Lucarella wrote:

I think it would be great if LDC is listed in the D official website, GDC
is listed for example and it's way too obsolete. I think that can give the
impression that there is no working updated compiler other than DMD.


 
 
 Sure. What url do you want me to use? Better yet, send me the text & link.


Well, I'm not an LDC developer, but I think the project URL would be fine:
http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc

And for the text, I think you can take it from there too, depending on how
much text you want to include you can use a paragraph or more.

I'll wait a tittle to see if some LDC developer say what they think it's
best, and if nobody answer just put that link and the first wiki
paragraph. That would be better than nothing =)

Thanks.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (luca) | Blog colectivo: http://www.mazziblog.com.ar/blog/
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jun 27 2009
parent reply Christian Kamm <kamm-incasoftware removethis.de> writes:
Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 Walter Bright, el 27 de junio a las 19:25 me escribiste:

 Leandro Lucarella wrote:

I think it would be great if LDC is listed in the D official website,
GDC is listed for example and it's way too obsolete. I think that can
give the impression that there is no working updated compiler other than
DMD.


 
 
 Sure. What url do you want me to use? Better yet, send me the text &
 link.


 
 Well, I'm not an LDC developer, but I think the project URL would be fine:
 http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc


Yes, that's the right link.

Text: maybe change

There are currently two implementations, the Digital Mars DMD package for 
Win32 and x86 Linux, and the GCC D Compiler package for several platforms, 
including Windows and Mac OS X.

to

There are currently three implementations: Digital Mars DMD (D version 1 and 
2), the LLVM D Compiler (D version 1 only) and the GCC D Compiler (D 1.030 
and 2.014 only).


This is a controversial change as the front page doesn't mention the D1/D2 
split at the moment. I felt it reasonable to mention the frontend versions 
of GDC since they're one year old and it doesn't change often.

I dropped the platform listing for each compiler as DMD now supports Win32, 
x86 Linux, x86 Mac OSX and x86 FreeBSD, and spelling it out made the text 
hard to read.

Also add 'LDC D Compiler' to the 'Tools' section of the navigation bar and 
to the download page. As we only have binary packages for x86-32 and x86-64, 
please only list these two platforms as 'supported by LDC'.
Jun 28 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Christian Kamm wrote:

 Also add 'LDC D Compiler' to the 'Tools' section of the navigation bar and 
 to the download page. As we only have binary packages for x86-32 and x86-64, 
 please only list these two platforms as 'supported by LDC'.


What urls for the downloads?
Jun 30 2009
next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Walter Bright:

 What urls for the downloads?


LDC compiler is getting very good (D1, on Linux, with Tango), I suggest you to
try it if you haven't yet.

The home page:
http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc

Downloads:
http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc/wiki/Release_0.9.1

Soon the daily builds for Ubuntu will work again:
http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc/wiki/BuildInstructionsUbuntu

DStress results  seem to show that for x86-32 Linux LDC is similar or sometimes
better than DMD (but DMD compiles quite faster, I don't know why):
http://www.incasoftware.de/~kamm/ldc/tests/index.html

Code compiled by LDC is often almost as efficient as C++ code compiled with
g++, so LDC is a good hope for the spreading of D1 among C++ programmers that
look for an efficient language.

Bye,
bearophile
Jun 30 2009
parent Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:23 PM, bearophile<bearophileHUGS lycos.com> wrote:

 Walter Bright:

 What urls for the downloads?


 LDC compiler is getting very good (D1, on Linux, with Tango), I suggest you to
try it if you haven't yet.


Silly bear, Walter won't look at it because it uses Tango!
Jun 30 2009
prev sibling parent reply Christian Kamm <kamm-incasoftware removethis.de> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:


 Christian Kamm wrote:

 Also add 'LDC D Compiler' to the 'Tools' section of the navigation bar
 and to the download page. As we only have binary packages for x86-32 and
 x86-64, please only list these two platforms as 'supported by LDC'.


 
 What urls for the downloads?


Ooh, a front page update!

I think it would be easiest if you just link to our front page. That way the 
link will never get stale. (also, we don't yet have a downloads page)

Thanks!
Jun 30 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Christian Kamm wrote:

 Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Christian Kamm wrote:

 Also add 'LDC D Compiler' to the 'Tools' section of the navigation bar
 and to the download page. As we only have binary packages for x86-32 and
 x86-64, please only list these two platforms as 'supported by LDC'.


 What urls for the downloads?


 
 Ooh, a front page update!
 
 I think it would be easiest if you just link to our front page. That way the 
 link will never get stale. (also, we don't yet have a downloads page)


I noticed that there was no download page referenced from the LDC home 
page. This needs to get fixed ASAP!
Jun 30 2009
parent reply Christian Kamm <check ldc-commits.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 I noticed that there was no download page referenced from the LDC home 
 page. This needs to get fixed ASAP!


You must have missed it: click "Current release: 0.9.1 announcement and
downloads"  under "Project Status and Downloads".
Jul 01 2009
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Christian Kamm wrote:

 Walter Bright Wrote:

 I noticed that there was no download page referenced from the LDC
 home page. This needs to get fixed ASAP!


 
 You must have missed it: click "Current release: 0.9.1 announcement
 and downloads"  under "Project Status and Downloads".



That was fast! <g>
Jul 01 2009
parent reply Leandro Lucarella <llucax gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright, el  1 de julio a las 02:52 me escribiste:

 Christian Kamm wrote:

Walter Bright Wrote:

I noticed that there was no download page referenced from the LDC
home page. This needs to get fixed ASAP!


You must have missed it: click "Current release: 0.9.1 announcement
and downloads"  under "Project Status and Downloads".


 
 That was fast! <g>


It was there for a long time, seriously (you can check the trac history ;)

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (luca) | Blog colectivo: http://www.mazziblog.com.ar/blog/
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jul 01 2009
parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Leandro Lucarella wrote:

 Walter Bright, el  1 de julio a las 02:52 me escribiste:

 Christian Kamm wrote:

 Walter Bright Wrote:

 I noticed that there was no download page referenced from the LDC
 home page. This needs to get fixed ASAP!


 You must have missed it: click "Current release: 0.9.1 announcement
 and downloads"  under "Project Status and Downloads".


 That was fast! <g>


 
 It was there for a long time, seriously (you can check the trac history ;)
 


I have no idea how I missed it.
Jul 01 2009