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digitalmars.D - Dconf AGM draft agenda

reply Nicholas Wilson <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at 
https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM

If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up 
please do open a PR.
Apr 02
next sibling parent RazvanN <razvan.nitu1305 gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at 
 https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM

 If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something 
 up please do open a PR.
I would throw in the possibility of deprecating `inout`.
Apr 03
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at 
 https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM

 If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something 
 up please do open a PR.
For the sake of transparency, seeing as there is a big initial commit and no other attributions: 1) Who wrote this agenda? 2) Where did they get the content from?
Apr 03
parent Nicholas Wilson <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 08:54:41 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
 For the sake of transparency, seeing as there is a big initial 
 commit and no other attributions:

 1) Who wrote this agenda?
Me.
 2) Where did they get the content from?
Built the list up over the course of the last ~6 months from forum, PR and slack discussions.
Apr 03
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Dennis <dkorpel gmail.com> writes:
This is a great initiative.

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something 
 up please do open a PR.
I think it's the opposite of missing things. Looking at: http://dconf.org/2019/talks/agm.html Duration: 4 hours "expected to last an-hour-and-a-half, but it could go longer" It's a great backlog of things, but no way you can properly discuss that all in a couple of hours. I suggest to make something like a top 5 big issue points (things like DIP1000 or DMD as a library), and for each point a description of what you want out of the discussion / what the goal is. Thinks like: int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4]; Are cool, but not worth precious Dconf time compared to larger issues I think. I'd really focus on things that were already discussed online but did not reach a satisfying conclusion yet. In any case, I'm looking forward to the outcome of this meeting.
Apr 03
next sibling parent Nicholas Wilson <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 09:52:19 UTC, Dennis wrote:
 This is a great initiative.

 I think it's the opposite of missing things. Looking at: 
 http://dconf.org/2019/talks/agm.html

 Duration: 4 hours
 "expected to last an-hour-and-a-half, but it could go longer"

 It's a great backlog of things, but no way you can properly 
 discuss that all in a couple of hours. I suggest to make 
 something like a top 5 big issue points (things like DIP1000 or 
 DMD as a library), and for each point a description of what you 
 want out of the discussion / what the goal is.
Well I'm hoping that some/most of the points will have already been discussed (possibly even resolved) by the time the AGM takes place (it's on the last day).
 Thinks like:
 int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4];
 Are cool, but not worth precious Dconf time compared to larger 
 issues I think. I'd really focus on things that were already 
 discussed online but did not reach a satisfying conclusion yet.
That's one case already ;)
 In any case, I'm looking forward to the outcome of this meeting.
Me too.
Apr 03
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 4/3/19 5:52 AM, Dennis wrote:
 This is a great initiative.
 
 On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up 
 please do open a PR.
I think it's the opposite of missing things. Looking at: http://dconf.org/2019/talks/agm.html Duration: 4 hours "expected to last an-hour-and-a-half, but it could go longer"
My flight to Boston takes off from LGW at 4:55 on Saturday so I'll be a bit timeboxed.
Apr 03
prev sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 09:52:19 UTC, Dennis wrote:

 Duration: 4 hours
 "expected to last an-hour-and-a-half, but it could go longer"
That duration of 4 hours is an overlooked error. When editing the Ddoc for that page, I started with one of the hackathon files and simply missed it.
Apr 03
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Seb <seb wilzba.ch> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at 
 https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM

 If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something 
 up please do open a PR.
Thanks a lot for this! It would be super nice to have handy links to the relevant GH PRs, Bugzilla issue or forum discussion. Also each point should have a short description, because I don't know what you want to discuss with e.g. "Stuff from github.com/truedat101/dlang-sv-community". Anyhow, a few points:
 Deprecate autodecode – plan of action
tl;dr: the only way we can get rid of it is std.v2
 Dub tester to regression scan for dmd releases - Neia
How is this different to the existing project tester?
 64 compiler release for windows
It's listed twice. In short: the release setup is pretty complicated and only Martin has all the VMs required for the build setup. Also, you might want to add to your list that the binaries for Windows are no longer signed.
 int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4];
I wouldn't get my hopes up for this one. A DMD PR has been reverted and then closed. https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/3615 https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/4377 Since then `staticArray` has been added to Phobos:
 ch
the subpoints seem unrelated.
 Quality of documentation
It's pretty bad. DMD documentation is almost unusable, for druntime many modules don't have long descriptions or examples. Phobos is a lot better, but the ddoc <-> ddox duplication is still around. The tour.dlang.io should have been revisited and reworked a long time ago, but no one got around (in short: we want to have a more natural intro for readers and show off D features in the beginning, not end).
 Transition from DMC+OPTLINK to msvc/mingw + lld
I have tried this before. Walter will definitely object to this. Other people also gave it a shot, see e.g. https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8347 https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9085 With mingwg + lld there is also this problem: https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19760 At least, dub now does the sensible thing: https://github.com/dlang/dub/pull/1661
 FreeBSD 11/12
It's a mess and as almost no one uses D on FreeBSD, this doesn't move forward: https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8567 FWIW toolchain triplet selection would have been nice too: https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8020
 State of std.experimental
The entire idea of std.experimental kinda failed, because breaking changes can't be SemVer-ed, If you're asking whether anything can be stabilized, we're far from it: - stdx.logger: people want a nogc logger (and IIRC there were some API issues) - stdx.checkedint: it's not even safe by default (see e.g. https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6369, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/5928, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6550) - stdx.allocator: still changes happening very often. The community fork diverged and is usable with betterC (https://github.com/dlang-community/stdx-allocator). There are also quite a few bugzilla issues on it - stdx.typecons: probably the only module that could be stabilized (though it only contains two functions) I'm not sure what to do with wrap as the existing wrap would need to be deprecated and removed, but we could stabilize Final (D's head-const): https://dlang.org/phobos/std_experimental_typecons.html#.Final
 DMD as a library
With stuff like https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9507, it's a constant battle :/
 Get bugzilla under control (prioritisation)
We tried quite a few things over the last years: - #dbugfix campaign - voting on Bugzilla issues Currently, we're back to people complaining loudly on the NG about very important issues as this is the only way to grab attention. About a year ago, I started an internal discussion about moving the issues to GitHub. I tested a potential migration and it looked pretty promising. The two big downsides were: - issue numbers would be different (though a redirect on issues.dlang.org and mentioning the original issue number should help greatly with that. Furthermore, we could create empty "dummy" issues to align the issue numbers if deemed necessary) - no longer in one global issue database (though since GitHub supports issue transfers, probably not a big problem anymore) In the end it wasn't done because of the fear of loosing control over the issue data as the only way to programmatically export them is the GitHub API which is severely rate-limited. Though to be honest, at the moment Brad is the only with access to issues.dlang.org (and no one else to my knowledge is keeping backups of issues.dlang.org). The migration script is here: https://github.com/wilzbach/bugzilla-migration
Apr 03
parent reply Nicholas Wilson <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 11:53:11 UTC, Seb wrote:
 Thanks a lot for this!
No problem.
 It would be super nice to have handy links to the relevant GH 
 PRs, Bugzilla issue or forum discussion.
True, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to get done, I fly out tomorrow evening and will be pretty busy until dconf.
 Also each point should have a short description, because I 
 don't know what you want to discuss with e.g. "Stuff from 
 github.com/truedat101/dlang-sv-community".
Whoops I thought I'd fixed that.
 Anyhow, a few points:

 Deprecate autodecode – plan of action
tl;dr: the only way we can get rid of it is std.v2
Grumble, grumble.
 Dub tester to regression scan for dmd releases - Neia
How is this different to the existing project tester?
IIRC it was run against all dub projects, as opposed to a select group.
 64 compiler release for windows
It's listed twice.
Its very important ;) (whoops)
 In short: the release setup is pretty complicated and only 
 Martin has all the VMs required for the build setup.
Hmm, that screams single point of failure to me.
 Also, you might want to add to your list that the binaries for 
 Windows are no longer signed.
Noted, thanks.
 int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4];
I wouldn't get my hopes up for this one. A DMD PR has been reverted and then closed. https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/3615 https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/4377 Since then `staticArray` has been added to Phobos:
Hmm:
 [Andrei]: I am definitely thinking [$] should not be in D. We 
 need to achieve most of what it does with libraries.
I don't like that reasoning: just because we can doesn't mean we should (unnecessary template instances). I note that the same reasoning seems to have been used to remove hex strings which have come to the end of their deprecation period.
 ch
the subpoints seem unrelated.
That was the PR that took forever to get approved after _I_ attempted to reconcile the lack of documentation about dip1000. (yes I'm still annoyed)
 Quality of documentation
It's pretty bad. DMD documentation is almost unusable, for druntime many modules don't have long descriptions or examples. Phobos is a lot better, but the ddoc <-> ddox duplication is still around. The tour.dlang.io should have been revisited and reworked a long time ago, but no one got around (in short: we want to have a more natural intro for readers and show off D features in the beginning, not end).
Yup, I'm hoping that having discussed it in the morning some otherwise idle people might take the charge at the hackathon (man those CIs are going to get hammered).
 Transition from DMC+OPTLINK to msvc/mingw + lld
I have tried this before. Walter will definitely object to this. Other people also gave it a shot, see e.g. https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8347 https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9085
Well he's going to have to seriously justify that position (modulo below).
 With mingwg + lld there is also this problem: 
 https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19760
Bummer.
 At least, dub now does the sensible thing:

 https://github.com/dlang/dub/pull/1661
Good.
 FreeBSD 11/12
It's a mess and as almost no one uses D on FreeBSD, this doesn't move forward: https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8567 FWIW toolchain triplet selection would have been nice too: https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8020
Indeed.
 State of std.experimental
The entire idea of std.experimental kinda failed, because breaking changes can't be SemVer-ed, If you're asking whether anything can be stabilized, we're far from it: - stdx.logger: people want a nogc logger (and IIRC there were some API issues) - stdx.checkedint: it's not even safe by default (see e.g. https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6369, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/5928, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6550) - stdx.allocator: still changes happening very often. The community fork diverged and is usable with betterC (https://github.com/dlang-community/stdx-allocator). There are also quite a few bugzilla issues on it - stdx.typecons: probably the only module that could be stabilized (though it only contains two functions) I'm not sure what to do with wrap as the existing wrap would need to be deprecated and removed, but we could stabilize Final (D's head-const): https://dlang.org/phobos/std_experimental_typecons.html#.Final
 DMD as a library
With stuff like https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9507, it's a constant battle :/
I know.
 Get bugzilla under control (prioritisation)
We tried quite a few things over the last years: - #dbugfix campaign - voting on Bugzilla issues Currently, we're back to people complaining loudly on the NG about very important issues as this is the only way to grab attention.
Even a list of bounties would be useful.
Apr 03
parent Nicholas Wilson <iamthewilsonator hotmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 12:29:25 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 11:53:11 UTC, Seb wrote:
 the subpoints seem unrelated.
Ah I see, the indentation was off, that was supposed to be a subpoint of the point above.
Apr 03
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Mike Franklin <slavo5150 yahoo.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:

 If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something 
 up please do open a PR.
I would like to request you please defer judgment on property unless someone who's done significant work with it is present to advocate on its behalf. I'm afraid I won't be there, and I fear a rash judgment. I am well aware that Walter and Andrei are disappointed in property, but I have not heard a single objective argument explaining why. It is mostly "It sucks" and "I don't like it" and arguments that optional parens fulfills the need (It doesn't and I can make that case). property is not fundamentally flawed (at least I haven't heard a good argument proving so). Its implementation is slightly broken and very incomplete. I believe that with a few fixes, a few years of adjustment, and the necessary work to complete the implementation, property could become an asset to the language. What I'm asking for is that unless the right person is there to articulate the issue (there are a few), please allow the DIP process to work. We don't need *a* decision, we need the right decision and we have a process for reaching that decision. This actually goes for any issue on the AGM agenda. I think it's OK to discuss it, but please defer judgment, and let the DIP process work, unless there is someone there that can make the full case for it. property needs 3 separate DIPs to be a success. I had originally abandoned the Binary Assignment Operators DIP, but Andrei's recent "We've been worrying too much about changing things" and "We need one standard library that is entirely pay-as-you-go" posts has re-kindled my hope that maybe, just *maybe*, there still might be some hope for D to be more than an obscure language with a cult following. It won't be easy to rescue property, but I believe it can be done, and will ultimately earn the support of the community. I need help. If you would like to help, please get in touch with me (JinShil on GitHub and Slack). We need someone with good writing skills and the ability to be thorough to write the DIPs. Either that or it's on me, and that will take a long while. Mike
Apr 04
parent Mike Franklin <slavo5150 yahoo.com> writes:
On Thursday, 4 April 2019 at 23:55:16 UTC, Mike Franklin wrote:

  property is not fundamentally flawed (at least I haven't heard 
 a good argument proving so).
BTW, I'm a big advocate of fail early. If you can make the case against property I'd love to hear it so I don't waste my time. Mike
Apr 04
prev sibling parent Paolo Invernizzi <paolo.invernizzi gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
 The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at 
 https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM

 If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something 
 up please do open a PR.
It would be interesting to understand the plan around having a better CTFE performance. The decision is to wait for Stefan's work to land into master? If yes, Walter, or someone else, has given a fast look to the current state-of-work? If no, there's a plan B? - P
Apr 05