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digitalmars.D - D casually mentioned and dismissed + a suggestion

reply "FujiBar" <no spam.com> writes:
For those keeping track of every mentioning of D in the media (Hi 
Andrei!):

The following article about Rust made it to the front page of HN 
and /r/programming recently: http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0324/

Here is the part mentioning D:

"Well, as you probably remember, it is far not the first attempt 
to create a "better" C/C++. Take the D language, for instance. It 
was released in 2001 and is a good language indeed. But there are 
no vacancies, no decent development tools, no remarkable success 
stories associated with it. The OpenMW project was initially 
started in D but then the authors suddenly decided to completely 
rewrite it into C++. As they confessed, they'd been receiving 
piles of emails where people would say, "you are making a cool 
project and we'd like to contribute to it, but we don't know and 
neither feel like studying this silly D". Wikipedia tells us that 
there were a lot of other attempts besides D to kill C++ - for 
example Vala, Cyclone, Limbo, BitC. How many of you have even 
heard of these languages?"

Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
development tools" assessment. But I got to say that people used 
to Visual Studio and XCode (like myself) not being impressed  by 
D's 1980s-style bare basic command line tools is not surprising.

I think an IDE, one could call it "DCode" (great name, isn't 
it?), which integrates all the available tools and provides a 
modern graphical interface to them would do wonders.

I used to be a command line / text editor / handwritten builds 
scripts guy myself. But then I was forced to use Visual Studio 
for a project and now I do not want to go back.
May 12 2015
next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 For those keeping track of every mentioning of D in the media 
 (Hi Andrei!):

 The following article about Rust made it to the front page of 
 HN and /r/programming recently: http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0324/


https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9531822
http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/35pn5a/criticizing_the_rust_language_and_why_cc_will/

As has been pointed out above, this is written by ... a company 
that sells static C++ analyzers for a living. D and Rust's goal 
is to put them out of business... so, naturally, there's some 
conflict of interest.
May 12 2015
parent "Dmitri" <deemok gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:51:17 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 For those keeping track of every mentioning of D in the media 
 (Hi Andrei!):

 The following article about Rust made it to the front page of 
 HN and /r/programming recently: 
 http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0324/


 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9531822
 http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/35pn5a/criticizing_the_rust_language_and_why_cc_will/

 As has been pointed out above, this is written by ... a company 
 that sells static C++ analyzers for a living. D and Rust's goal 
 is to put them out of business... so, naturally, there's some 
 conflict of interest.


As a tiny nitpick - the article has, in fact, been written by 
this guy:
http://eax.me/cpp-will-never-die/

who, AFAIK, is not related to Program Verification Systems.

-dmitri.
May 13 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 For those keeping track of every mentioning of D in the media 
 (Hi Andrei!):

 The following article about Rust made it to the front page of 
 HN and /r/programming recently: http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0324/

 Here is the part mentioning D:

 "Well, as you probably remember, it is far not the first 
 attempt to create a "better" C/C++. Take the D language, for 
 instance. It was released in 2001 and is a good language 
 indeed. But there are no vacancies, no decent development 
 tools, no remarkable success stories associated with it. The 
 OpenMW project was initially started in D but then the authors 
 suddenly decided to completely rewrite it into C++. As they 
 confessed, they'd been receiving piles of emails where people 
 would say, "you are making a cool project and we'd like to 
 contribute to it, but we don't know and neither feel like 
 studying this silly D". Wikipedia tells us that there were a 
 lot of other attempts besides D to kill C++ - for example Vala, 
 Cyclone, Limbo, BitC. How many of you have even heard of these 
 languages?"


But people still hear about D. In fact, they're discussing it on 
HackerNews right now.
So obviously it's doing something right.
May 12 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "ponce" <contact gam3sfrommars.fr> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
 development tools" assessment. But I got to say that people 
 used to Visual Studio and XCode (like myself) not being 
 impressed  by D's 1980s-style bare basic command line tools is 
 not surprising.


1980s?

I recently switched from C++ full-time to D full-time and with 
VisualD and Mago I simply don't have anything to miss. The 
debugging experience is only a tiny notch behind vanilla VS with 
C++ and the project management is a lot better

So for me, tooling is at least as good as C++.
To me languages without language package manager (like C++) are 
precisely the 1980s way of programming, alone in a corner and 
with minimal reuse.

I don't see how XCode is anything to miss by the way either :). 
Mono-D can probably do better.



 I used to be a command line / text editor / handwritten builds 
 scripts guy myself. But then I was forced to use Visual Studio 
 for a project and now I do not want to go back.


You don't have to go back.
May 12 2015
parent "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 19:55:56 UTC, ponce wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
 development tools" assessment. But I got to say that people 
 used to Visual Studio and XCode (like myself) not being 
 impressed  by D's 1980s-style bare basic command line tools is 
 not surprising.


 1980s?

 I recently switched from C++ full-time to D full-time and with 
 VisualD and Mago I simply don't have anything to miss. The 
 debugging experience is only a tiny notch behind vanilla VS 
 with C++ and the project management is a lot better

 So for me, tooling is at least as good as C++.
 To me languages without language package manager (like C++) are 
 precisely the 1980s way of programming, alone in a corner and 
 with minimal reuse.

 I don't see how XCode is anything to miss by the way either :). 
 Mono-D can probably do better.



 I used to be a command line / text editor / handwritten builds 
 scripts guy myself. But then I was forced to use Visual Studio 
 for a project and now I do not want to go back.


 You don't have to go back.


Next to C/C++, I've found D to actually have some of the best 
debugging support - GDC/LDC seem to emit debug info on par with 
their C++ counterparts, and GDB is just as usable with D(thanks, 
ibuclaw) as it is with C++.

What counts as tooling anyways? C++ has so many static analyzers, 
lints, code fixers etc because to use C++ you generally need them 
- unless you're a certified C++ standard language lawyer anyways.
May 12 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Brian Schott" <briancschott gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


There's at least one:
https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30
May 12 2015
next sibling parent Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 12 May 2015 at 22:02, Brian Schott via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."



 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


Two:
https://www.sociomantic.com/jobs/d-software-developer
May 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply Max Klyga <max.klyga gmail.com> writes:
On 2015-05-12 20:02:05 +0000, Brian Schott said:


 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


 
 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


https://arex.recruiterbox.com/jobs/fk0hjlh/
May 12 2015
next sibling parent "Israel" <tl12000 live.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 22:57:32 UTC, Max Klyga wrote:

 On 2015-05-12 20:02:05 +0000, Brian Schott said:


 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


 
 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


 https://arex.recruiterbox.com/jobs/fk0hjlh/


As long as Walter and Andrei keep the D ecosystem stable and 
streamlined, new jobs should keep popping up...
May 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/12/15 3:57 PM, Max Klyga wrote:

 On 2015-05-12 20:02:05 +0000, Brian Schott said:


 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


 https://arex.recruiterbox.com/jobs/fk0hjlh/


Should we put together a page of "D job openings" on the wiki? -- Andrei
May 12 2015
next sibling parent "rom" <monfollet.romain hotmail.fr> writes:
I totally agree

On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 05:05:54 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 5/12/15 3:57 PM, Max Klyga wrote:

 On 2015-05-12 20:02:05 +0000, Brian Schott said:


 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


 https://arex.recruiterbox.com/jobs/fk0hjlh/


 Should we put together a page of "D job openings" on the wiki? 
 -- Andrei
May 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Mengu" <mengukagan gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 05:05:54 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
wrote:

 On 5/12/15 3:57 PM, Max Klyga wrote:

 On 2015-05-12 20:02:05 +0000, Brian Schott said:


 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


 https://arex.recruiterbox.com/jobs/fk0hjlh/


 Should we put together a page of "D job openings" on the wiki? 
 -- Andrei


that does not belong to the wiki. that belongs to the frontpage.
May 13 2015
next sibling parent "wobbles" <grogan.colin gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 10:34:46 UTC, Mengu wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 05:05:54 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
 wrote:

 On 5/12/15 3:57 PM, Max Klyga wrote:

 On 2015-05-12 20:02:05 +0000, Brian Schott said:


 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


 https://arex.recruiterbox.com/jobs/fk0hjlh/


 Should we put together a page of "D job openings" on the wiki? 
 -- Andrei


 that does not belong to the wiki. that belongs to the frontpage.


Yep, I agree.
Right below the "Active Discussions" or "Tweets" widgets.
May 13 2015
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/13/15 3:34 AM, Mengu wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 05:05:54 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
 wrote:

 On 5/12/15 3:57 PM, Max Klyga wrote:

 On 2015-05-12 20:02:05 +0000, Brian Schott said:


 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "But there are no vacancies..."


 There's at least one:
 https://emsi.bamboohr.com/jobs/view.php?id=30


 https://arex.recruiterbox.com/jobs/fk0hjlh/


 Should we put together a page of "D job openings" on the wiki? -- Andrei


 that does not belong to the wiki. that belongs to the frontpage.


It should be easy to update by the community, so a wiki might be a good 
start. So I saw three links, any others? -- Andrei
May 13 2015
next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 15:24:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 It should be easy to update by the community, so a wiki might 
 be a good start. So I saw three links, any others? -- Andrei


If it's visible on the front page, more links should be submitted 
quickly.

So do we want a front page widget that's hosted on the wiki?
May 13 2015
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/13/15 8:26 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 So do we want a front page widget that's hosted on the wiki?


That would be a good idea generally though it opens the site for 
vandalism. I'd say we start with a wiki page and work from there. -- Andrei
May 13 2015
next sibling parent reply "Liran Zvibel" <liran weka.io> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 16:24:12 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 5/13/15 8:26 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 So do we want a front page widget that's hosted on the wiki?


 That would be a good idea generally though it opens the site 
 for vandalism. I'd say we start with a wiki page and work from 
 there. -- Andrei


We don't have any publicly available job listing for D, but we 
would like to also have an entry in that wiki once you create it. 
We're always on the look for good engineers, and D is our main 
development language.

Liran
May 14 2015
next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 14:02:38 UTC, Liran Zvibel wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 16:24:12 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 On 5/13/15 8:26 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 So do we want a front page widget that's hosted on the wiki?


 That would be a good idea generally though it opens the site 
 for vandalism.




So does the "latest announcements" ticker, and we haven't had any 
incidents so far. Unlike with the forum, anyone can revert wiki 
vandalism, and wiki admins can protect pages.


 I'd say we start with a wiki page and work from there. -- 
 Andrei


 We don't have any publicly available job listing for D, but we 
 would like to also have an entry in that wiki once you create 
 it. We're always on the look for good engineers, and D is our 
 main development language.


Let's get this started, then:

http://wiki.dlang.org/Jobs

I found two older job postings on the forum, not sure if they're 
still valid:

http://forum.dlang.org/post/uzemmpgbmdepdbyeeana forum.dlang.org
http://forum.dlang.org/post/fqof9i$1ge6$1 digitalmars.com
May 14 2015
parent reply "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 14:33:13 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
wrote:

 On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 14:02:38 UTC, Liran Zvibel wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 16:24:12 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 On 5/13/15 8:26 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 So do we want a front page widget that's hosted on the wiki?


 That would be a good idea generally though it opens the site 
 for vandalism.




 So does the "latest announcements" ticker, and we haven't had 
 any incidents so far. Unlike with the forum, anyone can revert 
 wiki vandalism, and wiki admins can protect pages.


 I'd say we start with a wiki page and work from there. -- 
 Andrei


 We don't have any publicly available job listing for D, but we 
 would like to also have an entry in that wiki once you create 
 it. We're always on the look for good engineers, and D is our 
 main development language.


 Let's get this started, then:

 http://wiki.dlang.org/Jobs

 I found two older job postings on the forum, not sure if 
 they're still valid:

 http://forum.dlang.org/post/uzemmpgbmdepdbyeeana forum.dlang.org
 http://forum.dlang.org/post/fqof9i$1ge6$1 digitalmars.com


I think EMSI is in Moscow, Idaho.
May 14 2015
parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 14:37:03 UTC, weaselcat wrote:

 On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 14:33:13 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev 
 wrote:

 http://wiki.dlang.org/Jobs


 I think EMSI is in Moscow, Idaho.


Err, fixed.
May 14 2015
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/14/15 7:02 AM, Liran Zvibel wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 16:24:12 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 5/13/15 8:26 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 So do we want a front page widget that's hosted on the wiki?


 That would be a good idea generally though it opens the site for
 vandalism. I'd say we start with a wiki page and work from there. --
 Andrei


 We don't have any publicly available job listing for D, but we would
 like to also have an entry in that wiki once you create it. We're always
 on the look for good engineers, and D is our main development language.

 Liran


Added to http://wiki.dlang.org/Jobs, feel free to edit (e.g. I didn't 
know the city). -- Andrei
May 14 2015
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/13/2015 9:24 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 5/13/15 8:26 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

 So do we want a front page widget that's hosted on the wiki?


 That would be a good idea generally though it opens the site for vandalism. I'd
 say we start with a wiki page and work from there. -- Andrei



I agree.
May 14 2015
prev sibling parent reply "Dragos Carp" <dragoscarp gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 15:24:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 It should be easy to update by the community, so a wiki might 
 be a good start. So I saw three links, any others? -- Andrei


My company have 2-3 positions open in Munich, unfortunately the 
current job listing is just in German. I'll see if I can get one 
also in English.

Dragos
May 14 2015
next sibling parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 15:14:25 UTC, Dragos Carp wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 15:24:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 It should be easy to update by the community, so a wiki might 
 be a good start. So I saw three links, any others? -- Andrei


 My company have 2-3 positions open in Munich, unfortunately the 
 current job listing is just in German. I'll see if I can get 
 one also in English.

 Dragos


Have you posted it here? There are German users as well.
May 14 2015
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 5/14/15 8:14 AM, Dragos Carp wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 15:24:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 It should be easy to update by the community, so a wiki might be a
 good start. So I saw three links, any others? -- Andrei


 My company have 2-3 positions open in Munich, unfortunately the current
 job listing is just in German. I'll see if I can get one also in English.

 Dragos


Sorry, I've forgotten your company's name. What is it? -- Andrei
May 14 2015
parent reply "Dragos Carp" <dragoscarp gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 16:28:01 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 5/14/15 8:14 AM, Dragos Carp wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 15:24:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 It should be easy to update by the community, so a wiki might 
 be a
 good start. So I saw three links, any others? -- Andrei


 My company have 2-3 positions open in Munich, unfortunately 
 the current
 job listing is just in German. I'll see if I can get one also 
 in English.

 Dragos


 Sorry, I've forgotten your company's name. What is it? -- Andrei


Funkwerk Aktiengesellschaft, Traffic & Control Communication
http://funkwerk-itk.com/funkwerk_itk_en/

The job posting [1] is not targeted for people knowing D already, 
if necessary a training period is allowed.

Dragos


[1] 
http://funkwerk-itk.com/funkwerk_itk_de/imagepool/jobs/SoftwareEntwickler.pdf
May 14 2015
parent reply =?UTF-8?B?QWxpIMOHZWhyZWxp?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 05/14/2015 03:20 PM, Dragos Carp wrote:


 Dragos


 [1]
 http://funkwerk-itk.com/funkwerk_itk_de/imagepool/jobs/SoftwareEntwickler.pdf


Added: http://wiki.dlang.org/Jobs

Ali
May 14 2015
parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Thursday, 14 May 2015 at 23:04:55 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:

 On 05/14/2015 03:20 PM, Dragos Carp wrote:


 Dragos


 [1]
 http://funkwerk-itk.com/funkwerk_itk_de/imagepool/jobs/SoftwareEntwickler.pdf


 Added: http://wiki.dlang.org/Jobs

 Ali


If this ain't good PR for D, I don't know what is:

http://funkwerk-itk.com/funkwerk_itk_en/news/artikel/2014_09_12_Auftrag_Norwegen_E.php
May 15 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "bachmeier" <no spam.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 For those keeping track of every mentioning of D in the media 
 (Hi Andrei!):

 The following article about Rust made it to the front page of 
 HN and /r/programming recently: http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0324/

 Here is the part mentioning D:

 "Well, as you probably remember, it is far not the first 
 attempt to create a "better" C/C++. Take the D language, for 
 instance. It was released in 2001 and is a good language 
 indeed. But there are no vacancies, no decent development 
 tools, no remarkable success stories associated with it. The 
 OpenMW project was initially started in D but then the authors 
 suddenly decided to completely rewrite it into C++. As they 
 confessed, they'd been receiving piles of emails where people 
 would say, "you are making a cool project and we'd like to 
 contribute to it, but we don't know and neither feel like 
 studying this silly D". Wikipedia tells us that there were a 
 lot of other attempts besides D to kill C++ - for example Vala, 
 Cyclone, Limbo, BitC. How many of you have even heard of these 
 languages?"

 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
 development tools" assessment. But I got to say that people 
 used to Visual Studio and XCode (like myself) not being 
 impressed  by D's 1980s-style bare basic command line tools is 
 not surprising.

 I think an IDE, one could call it "DCode" (great name, isn't 
 it?), which integrates all the available tools and provides a 
 modern graphical interface to them would do wonders.

 I used to be a command line / text editor / handwritten builds 
 scripts guy myself. But then I was forced to use Visual Studio 
 for a project and now I do not want to go back.


I thought the problem was that D has a garbage collector. Or was 
that last week's one real reason that nobody will switch from C++ 
to D?
May 12 2015
parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 20:23:32 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 For those keeping track of every mentioning of D in the media 
 (Hi Andrei!):

 The following article about Rust made it to the front page of 
 HN and /r/programming recently: 
 http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0324/

 Here is the part mentioning D:

 "Well, as you probably remember, it is far not the first 
 attempt to create a "better" C/C++. Take the D language, for 
 instance. It was released in 2001 and is a good language 
 indeed. But there are no vacancies, no decent development 
 tools, no remarkable success stories associated with it. The 
 OpenMW project was initially started in D but then the authors 
 suddenly decided to completely rewrite it into C++. As they 
 confessed, they'd been receiving piles of emails where people 
 would say, "you are making a cool project and we'd like to 
 contribute to it, but we don't know and neither feel like 
 studying this silly D". Wikipedia tells us that there were a 
 lot of other attempts besides D to kill C++ - for example 
 Vala, Cyclone, Limbo, BitC. How many of you have even heard of 
 these languages?"

 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
 development tools" assessment. But I got to say that people 
 used to Visual Studio and XCode (like myself) not being 
 impressed  by D's 1980s-style bare basic command line tools is 
 not surprising.

 I think an IDE, one could call it "DCode" (great name, isn't 
 it?), which integrates all the available tools and provides a 
 modern graphical interface to them would do wonders.

 I used to be a command line / text editor / handwritten builds 
 scripts guy myself. But then I was forced to use Visual Studio 
 for a project and now I do not want to go back.


 I thought the problem was that D has a garbage collector. Or 
 was that last week's one real reason that nobody will switch 
 from C++ to D?



At work, we develop software in the JVM and .NET eco-systems, 
with C++ being used for additional integration at the OS level, 
performance and COM objects.

Alongside the IDE and OS vendor support, there is the mixed 
debugging experience.

On my side projects, C++ is used for the business code between 
Android and Windows Phone with the platform specific code written 
in Java and C++/CX.

--
Paulo
May 12 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "thedeemon" <dlang thedeemon.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "Wikipedia tells us that there were a lot of other attempts 
 besides D to kill C++ - for example Vala, Cyclone, Limbo, BitC. 
 How many of you have even heard of these languages?"


I've heard of every one except Limbo.


 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
 development tools" assessment. But I got to say that people 
 used to Visual Studio and XCode (like myself) not being 
 impressed  by D's 1980s-style bare basic command line tools is 
 not surprising.


I program in D in Visual Studio and it's fine, I like the 
experience more than doing C++ in VS. Because the support for C++ 

if you use a special third-party tool like Visual Assist X you 
get some real benefits and only then you start to miss them in 
VisualD.



 I think an IDE, one could call it "DCode" (great name, isn't 
 it?), which integrates all the available tools and provides a 
 modern graphical interface to them would do wonders.


Have you actually tried Mono-D and VisualD?
May 12 2015
parent "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 03:30:53 UTC, thedeemon wrote:

 On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 "Wikipedia tells us that there were a lot of other attempts 
 besides D to kill C++ - for example Vala, Cyclone, Limbo, 
 BitC. How many of you have even heard of these languages?"


 I've heard of every one except Limbo.


Maybe you know Go?

Limbo was Inferno's programming language, Plan 9's successor, 
where two of Go main creators were involved.

Go is at its core a merge between Limbo and Oberon-2 method 
declaration syntax.

http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/docs.html
May 13 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Shachar Shemesh <shachar weka.io> writes:
On 12/05/15 21:35, FujiBar wrote:


 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent development
 tools" assessment. But I got to say that people used to Visual Studio
 and XCode (like myself) not being impressed  by D's 1980s-style bare
 basic command line tools is not surprising.


I don't think the command line aspect of things is justified. With that 
said, C++ has some really good cross referencing tools (e.g. in eclipse) 
that D not only does not match, but with CTFE, I do not see how it /can/ 
match. I actually miss those occasionally.

What bothers me most about D, however, is that the toolchain itself 
isn't there to pick up its share of the load. Transitioning between 
versions of the compiler requires a task with several days' worth of 
work behind it, and getting the code to compile on both dmd and gdc is a 
full time task for someone here. With DMD's optimizer not worth much, 
this is a real issue.

And this is before mentioning stability. I've lost count of the number 
of times my compilation failed with an assert thrown by dmd, and just 
last week I've had to refactor the code around a consistent segmentation 
fault by the compiler when trying to compile it. It got better for it, 
but ideally I'd like to refactor my code because I want to, not because 
the compiler crashes unless I do so.

Shachar
May 12 2015
next sibling parent "lobo" <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 05:13:55 UTC, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

 On 12/05/15 21:35, FujiBar wrote:


 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
 development
 tools" assessment. But I got to say that people used to Visual 
 Studio
 and XCode (like myself) not being impressed  by D's 
 1980s-style bare
 basic command line tools is not surprising.


 I don't think the command line aspect of things is justified. 
 With that said, C++ has some really good cross referencing 
 tools (e.g. in eclipse) that D not only does not match, but 
 with CTFE, I do not see how it /can/ match. I actually miss 
 those occasionally.

 What bothers me most about D, however, is that the toolchain 
 itself isn't there to pick up its share of the load. 
 Transitioning between versions of the compiler requires a task 
 with several days' worth of work behind it, and getting the 
 code to compile on both dmd and gdc is a full time task for 
 someone here. With DMD's optimizer not worth much, this is a 
 real issue.

 And this is before mentioning stability. I've lost count of the 
 number of times my compilation failed with an assert thrown by 
 dmd, and just last week I've had to refactor the code around a 
 consistent segmentation fault by the compiler when trying to 
 compile it. It got better for it, but ideally I'd like to 
 refactor my code because I want to, not because the compiler 
 crashes unless I do so.

 Shachar


Interesting. Since >= DMD 2.05x I haven't had any real stability 
problems with each new release.

Each release still breaks my code in some way because each new 
compiler version improves on the last and detects latent bugs in 
my code.

My only concern now with a new release is the compiler's memory 
usage growing.

bye,
lobo
May 12 2015
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/12/2015 10:13 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

 And this is before mentioning stability. I've lost count of the number of times
 my compilation failed with an assert thrown by dmd, and just last week I've had
 to refactor the code around a consistent segmentation fault by the compiler
when
 trying to compile it. It got better for it, but ideally I'd like to refactor my
 code because I want to, not because the compiler crashes unless I do so.


Have bugzilla reports been filed for these?
May 12 2015
parent reply Shachar Shemesh <shachar weka.io> writes:
On 13/05/15 08:48, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 5/12/2015 10:13 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

 And this is before mentioning stability. I've lost count of the number
 of times
 my compilation failed with an assert thrown by dmd, and just last week
 I've had
 to refactor the code around a consistent segmentation fault by the
 compiler when
 trying to compile it. It got better for it, but ideally I'd like to
 refactor my
 code because I want to, not because the compiler crashes unless I do so.


 Have bugzilla reports been filed for these?


Not yet. I saved the git tag in which this happens and will try to isolate.

Shachar
May 13 2015
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 5/13/2015 12:04 AM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

 I saved the git tag in which this happens and will try to isolate.


Thank you. This is very important.
May 13 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Bienlein" <jeti789 web.de> writes:
"You are making a cool project and we'd like to contribute to it, 
but we don't know and neither feel like studying this silly D".

This is indeed a problem for many newly created languages. Scala 
has somewhat managed to create its own eco system with Akka, 
Spark, Spray in a specialized area like concurrent programming 
and big data. Also because Scala has found some liking in 
academical circles (e.g. Spark, Scala STM). I don't know how 
things will look like for Kotlin. Maybe there will be a niche for 
Android development. For Groovy there is basically only Grails as 
a killer application.

For company internal development those languages might find some 
aficionados, but for open-source development exactly that "but we 
don't know and neither feel like studying" argument pops up. The 
rise of Scala started with Akka. Go has CSP-style concurrency as 
a killer feature (10k problem solved out of the box, much simpler 
concurrency). Rust fixes the problem with manual memory 
management being error prone. So you need some killer 
argument/feature/application. Otherwise you always face this 
counter argument.
May 13 2015
parent reply "Maxim Fomin" <maxim-fomin outlook.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 09:20:36 UTC, Bienlein wrote:

 "You are making a cool project and we'd like to contribute to 
 it, but we don't know and neither feel like studying this silly 
 D".

 This is indeed a problem for many newly created languages. 
 Scala has somewhat managed to create its own eco system with 
 Akka, Spark, Spray in a specialized area like concurrent 
 programming and big data. Also because Scala has found some 
 liking in academical circles (e.g. Spark, Scala STM). I don't 
 know how things will look like for Kotlin. Maybe there will be 
 a niche for Android development. For Groovy there is basically 
 only Grails as a killer application.


Giving how D is similar to C/C++ I am surprised that 
non-familiriarity with D is a big problem.
May 13 2015
next sibling parent reply Shachar Shemesh <shachar weka.io> writes:
On 13/05/15 12:29, Maxim Fomin wrote:


 Giving how D is similar to C/C++ I am surprised that non-familiriarity
 with D is a big problem.


D is a fairly complex language (far too complex, IMHO, relative to its 
age). Its complexities are both different than C++, and also of a 
different kind.

I would not say to anyone that they can learn D quickly because they 
know C++ (not to mention that the average knowledge of C++ is extremely 
low).

Shachar
May 13 2015
parent "weaselcat" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 09:52:08 UTC, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

 On 13/05/15 12:29, Maxim Fomin wrote:


 Giving how D is similar to C/C++ I am surprised that 
 non-familiriarity
 with D is a big problem.


 D is a fairly complex language (far too complex, IMHO, relative 
 to its age). Its complexities are both different than C++, and 
 also of a different kind.

 I would not say to anyone that they can learn D quickly because 
 they know C++ (not to mention that the average knowledge of C++ 
 is extremely low).

 Shachar


I find it easy to spot D code written by a C++ or Java developer 
by the heavy overuse of OO-based design, little to no range based 
code/afraid of being functional, and in the case of Java - heavy 
abuse of the GC.
May 13 2015
prev sibling next sibling parent Matt Soucy <msoucy csh.rit.edu> writes:
On 05/13/2015 05:29 AM, Maxim Fomin wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 09:20:36 UTC, Bienlein wrote:

 "You are making a cool project and we'd like to contribute to it, but we don't
know and neither feel like studying this silly D".

 This is indeed a problem for many newly created languages. Scala has somewhat
managed to create its own eco system with Akka, Spark, Spray in a specialized
area like concurrent programming and big data. Also because Scala has found
some liking in academical circles (e.g. Spark, Scala STM). I don't know how
things will look like for Kotlin. Maybe there will be a niche for Android
development. For Groovy there is basically only Grails as a killer application.


 
 Giving how D is similar to C/C++ I am surprised that non-familiriarity with D
is a big problem.


I agree - I posted some code I was working on into IRC, in a channel with
basically zero D programmers, and mentioned "How many lines are run at
compile-time vs runtime?". People with no D experience got the answer right
first try.

D is extremely easy to pick up (at least the basics) for someone with C++
experience, in my opinion.

-- 
Matt Soucy
http://msoucy.me/
May 18 2015
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 05/13/2015 05:29 AM, Maxim Fomin wrote:

 On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 at 09:20:36 UTC, Bienlein wrote:

 "You are making a cool project and we'd like to contribute to it, but
 we don't know and neither feel like studying this silly D".

 This is indeed a problem for many newly created languages. Scala has
 somewhat managed to create its own eco system with Akka, Spark, Spray
 in a specialized area like concurrent programming and big data. Also
 because Scala has found some liking in academical circles (e.g. Spark,
 Scala STM). I don't know how things will look like for Kotlin. Maybe
 there will be a niche for Android development. For Groovy there is
 basically only Grails as a killer application.


 Giving how D is similar to C/C++ I am surprised that non-familiriarity
 with D is a big problem.


Programming novices (ie, 90% of of professional programmers, ever since 
"java houses" and the web) and HR personnel don't understand that the 
vast majority pf programming skills are easily transferable between 
languages. They think it's all like Chinese vs French.
May 30 2015
prev sibling parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 at 18:35:10 UTC, FujiBar wrote:

 For those keeping track of every mentioning of D in the media 
 (Hi Andrei!):

 The following article about Rust made it to the front page of 
 HN and /r/programming recently: http://www.viva64.com/en/b/0324/

 Here is the part mentioning D:

 "Well, as you probably remember, it is far not the first 
 attempt to create a "better" C/C++. Take the D language, for 
 instance. It was released in 2001 and is a good language 
 indeed. But there are no vacancies, no decent development 
 tools, no remarkable success stories associated with it. The 
 OpenMW project was initially started in D but then the authors 
 suddenly decided to completely rewrite it into C++. As they 
 confessed, they'd been receiving piles of emails where people 
 would say, "you are making a cool project and we'd like to 
 contribute to it, but we don't know and neither feel like 
 studying this silly D". Wikipedia tells us that there were a 
 lot of other attempts besides D to kill C++ - for example Vala, 
 Cyclone, Limbo, BitC. How many of you have even heard of these 
 languages?"

 Walter would probably violently disagree with the "no decent 
 development tools" assessment. But I got to say that people 
 used to Visual Studio and XCode (like myself) not being 
 impressed  by D's 1980s-style bare basic command line tools is 
 not surprising.

 I think an IDE, one could call it "DCode" (great name, isn't 
 it?), which integrates all the available tools and provides a 
 modern graphical interface to them would do wonders.

 I used to be a command line / text editor / handwritten builds 
 scripts guy myself. But then I was forced to use Visual Studio 
 for a project and now I do not want to go back.


'As they confessed, they'd been receiving
piles of emails where people would say, "you are making a cool
project and we'd like to contribute to it, but we don't know and
neither feel like studying this silly D".'

Yet another reason not to use D. This is a new one to me, though. 
The common mantra is "D needs a cool project", and then when 
someone has a cool project, they say "we won't contribute, unless 
you use a language we all know". How thick is that?!

It's not even worth discussing this attitude. If it was up to 
people who never want any change, don't want to explore things, 
don't want to learn anything new, even if they can see its merits 
right in front of them, we wouldn't have fire for cooking and 
heating, wheels, soap, penicillin, electricity, fridges, punch 
cards - not even C++.
May 13 2015