digitalmars.D - D and WebAssembly (Wasm)
- Kenneth Dallmann (20/20) Sep 13 2021 Greetings!
- jfondren (3/7) Sep 13 2021 The immediate problem is that a D->C compiler does not exist.
- jfondren (3/15) Sep 13 2021 https://theartofmachinery.com/2018/12/20/emscripten_d.html
- Kenneth Dallmann (8/15) Sep 13 2021 I read somewhere that BetterC can though, and maybe that's how it
- Imperatorn (3/19) Sep 14 2021 Would be a cool project
- Adam D Ruppe (18/20) Sep 13 2021 See some of my little demos here:
- Kenneth Dallmann (4/10) Sep 13 2021 How funny I was playing your tetris game earlier today. I found
- Paul Backus (9/14) Sep 13 2021 The [D language runtime][1] uses inline assembly for some
- Kenneth Dallmann (3/17) Sep 13 2021 Inline assembly is described here for the C language.
- Kenneth Dallmann (6/20) Sep 13 2021 My bad, you got that correct. I guess someone would have to
- Denis Feklushkin (10/21) Sep 15 2021 Time to remind everyone about my project:
- Ferhat =?UTF-8?B?S3VydHVsbXXFnw==?= (10/34) Sep 13 2021 You don't need to compile d code to c. You can use d code with
- Kenneth Dallmann (8/16) Sep 13 2021 Yeah, thanks for answering! Sounds like you guys got it figured
- Dukc (3/9) Sep 13 2021 You don't need Emscripten at all. LDC can target WASM directly.
- Sebastiaan Koppe (16/24) Sep 13 2021 Yes, just yesterday I started to get back to that work again. I
- Ferhat =?UTF-8?B?S3VydHVsbXXFnw==?= (5/23) Sep 13 2021 Thank you Sebastiaan. Latest wasi support sounds awesome. If I
- Dukc (17/30) Sep 13 2021 True. Or alternatively, you probably can do it by simply not
Greetings!
Many people in the development community are very excited about
WebAssembly, because it allows the browser to interpret more
robust
languages than JS.
Rumor has it that D can compile to Wasm, but only in the
"BetterC"
subset.
LLVM can compile to Wasm, but unfortunately it may not support
systems IO calls because of the lack of operating system access.
Emscripten is a compiler that can transform C into something that
can run on Wasm without holes in the Standard Library. It does
this by simulating an operating system, which adds overhead to the
runtime, but allows a full range of C to be used, to my
understanding.
With D not being able to be run on Wasm in a meaning way: Why
can't
we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run
that
through Emscripten?
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The immediate problem is that a D->C compiler does not exist.
Sep 13 2021
jfondren <julian.fondren gmail.com> On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:29:45 UTC, jfondren wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:https://theartofmachinery.com/2018/12/20/emscripten_d.html explains that C isn't necessary:Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The immediate problem is that a D->C compiler does not exist.Emscripten is a toolchain designed for C/C++, but the C/C++ part is just a frontend. The toolchain actually compiles LLVM intermediate representation (IR). You can generate LLVM IR bitcode from D using LDC, so it should be possible to feed that through Emscripten and run D in a browser, just like C/C++.
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:29:45 UTC, jfondren wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:I read somewhere that BetterC can though, and maybe that's how it works. Although, with the LLVM you can compile it to Wasm, it just won't have the standard library, a technical nightmare. Maybe a D to C compiler would be a good project, to increase the portability of D.Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The immediate problem is that a D->C compiler does not exist.
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:36:10 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:29:45 UTC, jfondren wrote:Would be a cool projectOn Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:I read somewhere that BetterC can though, and maybe that's how it works. Although, with the LLVM you can compile it to Wasm, it just won't have the standard library, a technical nightmare. Maybe a D to C compiler would be a good project, to increase the portability of D.Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The immediate problem is that a D->C compiler does not exist.
Sep 14 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann
wrote:
Rumor has it that D can compile to Wasm, but only in the
"BetterC" subset.
See some of my little demos here:
http://webassembly.arsdnet.net/
a blog post about it
http://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-d/Blog.Posted_2020_08_10.html
and some source for the support code
http://github.com/adamdruppe/webassembly/
the approach I took is a miniature custom runtime but there's
also the possibility of a druntime port to the wasi emscripten
uses
https://github.com/skoppe/druntime/tree/wasm
though none of these are complete.
Anyway, the point of my little demo is in 50 KB of webasm I had
my basic game demos running in the browser.
I did partial source ports that just call out to javascript
instead of relying on a copied stdlib. Makes more sense that way
to me and also produces smaller binaries.
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:33:28 UTC, Adam D Ruppe wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:How funny I was playing your tetris game earlier today. I found it in a blog post on the same topic.Rumor has it that D can compile to Wasm, but only in the "BetterC" subset.See some of my little demos here: http://webassembly.arsdnet.net/
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:With D not being able to be run on Wasm in a meaning way: Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The [D language runtime][1] uses inline assembly for some low-level features (e.g., threads), and therefore cannot be compiled to C. Emscripten itself has [similar limitations.][2] [1]: https://github.com/dlang/druntime/ [2]: https://emscripten.org/docs/porting/guidelines/portability_guidelines.html#code-that-cannot-be-compiled
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:36:28 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:Inline assembly is described here for the C language. https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/language/asm#:~:text=Inline%20assembly%20(typically%20introduced%20by,as%20an%20extension%20in%20C.With D not being able to be run on Wasm in a meaning way: Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The [D language runtime][1] uses inline assembly for some low-level features (e.g., threads), and therefore cannot be compiled to C. Emscripten itself has [similar limitations.][2] [1]: https://github.com/dlang/druntime/ [2]: https://emscripten.org/docs/porting/guidelines/portability_guidelines.html#code-that-cannot-be-compiled
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:36:28 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:My bad, you got that correct. I guess someone would have to write a compiler/RTL specifically for D to run it on Wasm. I noticed that threads is one feature disabled in BetterC, and maybe that's why it has been ported to Wasm.With D not being able to be run on Wasm in a meaning way: Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The [D language runtime][1] uses inline assembly for some low-level features (e.g., threads), and therefore cannot be compiled to C. Emscripten itself has [similar limitations.][2] [1]: https://github.com/dlang/druntime/ [2]: https://emscripten.org/docs/porting/guidelines/portability_guidelines.html#code-that-cannot-be-compiled
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:36:28 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:Time to remind everyone about my project: https://github.com/denizzzka/d_c_arm_test It just allows to take these things into a small "backend": https://github.com/denizzzka/d_c_arm_test/tree/master/d/freertos_druntime_backend/external It is possible to write same backend for webasm or any other platform. (But now there is a tiny problem with the Meson, which does not allow to package arbitrary dub and any others repositories into Meson. PR is waiting for approval.)With D not being able to be run on Wasm in a meaning way: Why can't we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run that through Emscripten?The [D language runtime][1] uses inline assembly for some low-level features (e.g., threads), and therefore cannot be compiled to C. Emscripten itself has [similar limitations.][2]
Sep 15 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann
wrote:
Greetings!
Many people in the development community are very excited
about
WebAssembly, because it allows the browser to interpret more
robust
languages than JS.
Rumor has it that D can compile to Wasm, but only in the
"BetterC"
subset.
LLVM can compile to Wasm, but unfortunately it may not
support
systems IO calls because of the lack of operating system access.
Emscripten is a compiler that can transform C into something
that
can run on Wasm without holes in the Standard Library. It does
this by simulating an operating system, which adds overhead to
the
runtime, but allows a full range of C to be used, to my
understanding.
With D not being able to be run on Wasm in a meaning way: Why
can't
we just compile D code to C, as a compiler output, and then run
that
through Emscripten?
You don't need to compile d code to c. You can use d code with
emscripten. Sebastiaan Koppe was working on druntime[1] to make
it possible to use it with webassembly. Dunno its current status.
Here is also my d game using wasm. It even links with c libraries
compiled with emscripten.
https://aferust.github.io/drawee/
https://github.com/aferust/drawee
[1]: https://github.com/skoppe/druntime/tree/wasm
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 17:19:23 UTC, Ferhat Kurtulmuş wrote:You don't need to compile d code to c. You can use d code with emscripten. Sebastiaan Koppe was working on druntime[1] to make it possible to use it with webassembly. Dunno its current status. Here is also my d game using wasm. It even links with c libraries compiled with emscripten. https://aferust.github.io/drawee/ https://github.com/aferust/drawee [1]: https://github.com/skoppe/druntime/tree/wasmYeah, thanks for answering! Sounds like you guys got it figured out. You can just use the LLVM compiler to compile to LLVM intermediate code and then feed that directly into Emscripten. I wasn't able to find this info online, specifically. If this is true then D is 100% fully executable on via Emscripten Wasm.
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 18:11:22 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:Yeah, thanks for answering! Sounds like you guys got it figured out. You can just use the LLVM compiler to compile to LLVM intermediate code and then feed that directly into Emscripten. I wasn't able to find this info online, specifically. If this is true then D is 100% fully executable on via Emscripten Wasm.You don't need Emscripten at all. LDC can target WASM directly.
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 17:19:23 UTC, Ferhat Kurtulmuş wrote:You don't need to compile d code to c. You can use d code with emscripten. Sebastiaan Koppe was working on druntime[1] to make it possible to use it with webassembly. Dunno its current status. Here is also my d game using wasm. It even links with c libraries compiled with emscripten. https://aferust.github.io/drawee/ https://github.com/aferust/drawee [1]: https://github.com/skoppe/druntime/tree/wasmYes, just yesterday I started to get back to that work again. I am currently updating to latest ldc and wasi sdk. Couple of months ago all druntime/phobos tests were passing and I hope to get there again (well, all except thread/fibers/exceptions, since they aren't suported). You can already use the forks to build ldc phobos/druntime libs for use in wasm. It is a bit cumbersome to setup but it works. If that isn't your cup of tea - won't blame you - you'll have to stick to adam's custom runtime or plain betterC, which also works fine. Especially since spasm has bindings to all web api's. examples: https://skoppe.github.io/spasm/examples/todo-mvc/ https://skoppe.github.io/spasm/examples/underrun/ https://skoppe.github.io/spasm-imgui/
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 21:14:16 UTC, Sebastiaan Koppe wrote:On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 17:19:23 UTC, Ferhat Kurtulmuş wrote:Thank you Sebastiaan. Latest wasi support sounds awesome. If I remember correctly, the supported version was 8. It is nice to know you keep working on it.[...]Yes, just yesterday I started to get back to that work again. I am currently updating to latest ldc and wasi sdk. Couple of months ago all druntime/phobos tests were passing and I hope to get there again (well, all except thread/fibers/exceptions, since they aren't suported). You can already use the forks to build ldc phobos/druntime libs for use in wasm. It is a bit cumbersome to setup but it works. If that isn't your cup of tea - won't blame you - you'll have to stick to adam's custom runtime or plain betterC, which also works fine. Especially since spasm has bindings to all web api's. examples: https://skoppe.github.io/spasm/examples/todo-mvc/ https://skoppe.github.io/spasm/examples/underrun/ https://skoppe.github.io/spasm-imgui/
Sep 13 2021
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 16:19:31 UTC, Kenneth Dallmann wrote:Rumor has it that D can compile to Wasm, but only in the "BetterC" subset.True. Or alternatively, you probably can do it by simply not using the unported DRuntime parts, and defining a few stub functions for those runtime calls that remain in the binary anyway.LLVM can compile to Wasm, but unfortunately it may not support systems IO calls because of the lack of operating system access.You're supposed to create the system hooks for WASM yourself, or use a library for doing that. https://code.dlang.org/packages/spasm should be your first stop when using D. I think WASM is designed so you can run code unprivileged code in it, as opposed to asm.js which always has full access to it's environment.Emscripten is a compiler that can transform C into something that can run on Wasm without holes in the Standard Library. It does this by simulating an operating system, which adds overhead to the runtime, but allows a full range of C to be used, to my understanding.You can compile D to asm.js using the Emscripten backend, and then call the C API. No need for a C transpilation. However, I prefer WASM myself. It does not require a massive framework like Emscripten, and also it felt less buggy. And you can use Spasm with it.
Sep 13 2021