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digitalmars.D - D Programmer Jobs at Sociomantic Labs

reply "Marenz" <mathias.baumann sociomantic.com> writes:
Hey D Programmers,

so, we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking for 
D-Developers in Berlin. And lots of them. Currently still D1, but 
the process to change to D2 is initiated.

You can read more about it here:

https://www.sociomantic.com/jobs/d-software-developer/#.UnPl4Xh385Y

You can contact me anytime if you have specific questions. You 
can find me in the IRC #d channel as Marenz, M4renz or Suprano or 
you just send me an email.

cheers,

     --Mathias
Nov 01 2013
next sibling parent Dejan Lekic <dejan.lekic gmail.com> writes:
On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 18:37:59 +0100, Marenz wrote:


 Hey D Programmers,
 
 so, we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking for
 D-Developers in Berlin. And lots of them. Currently still D1, but the
 process to change to D2 is initiated.
 
 You can read more about it here:
 
 https://www.sociomantic.com/jobs/d-software-developer/#.UnPl4Xh385Y
 
 You can contact me anytime if you have specific questions. You can find
 me in the IRC #d channel as Marenz, M4renz or Suprano or you just send
 me an email.
 
 cheers,
 
      --Mathias


I posted the info on LinkedIn. I hope you find a good D programmer! :)
Nov 02 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/1/13 10:37 AM, Marenz wrote:

 Hey D Programmers,

 so, we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking for
 D-Developers in Berlin. And lots of them. Currently still D1, but the
 process to change to D2 is initiated.

 You can read more about it here:

 https://www.sociomantic.com/jobs/d-software-developer/#.UnPl4Xh385Y

 You can contact me anytime if you have specific questions. You can find
 me in the IRC #d channel as Marenz, M4renz or Suprano or you just send
 me an email.


Thanks, Mathias.

I've considered posting a similar message to this board, and this is as 
good occasion as any. I should emphasize that pursuing a job that 
requires or allows D is among the best things a member of our community 
could to do to help the language.

1. Sponsors such as Sociomantic have sponsored DConf 2013 in large part 
to further their recruitment interest. There is no better way to 
motivate further event sponsorship than to show that past events 
resulted in strong hiring.

2. At this point it helps to convert those in the community who only 
work on D as a hobby outside work, to working full-time with D (and as a 
consequence, to some extent at least, _on_ D).

As I made public recently, Facebook is investigating serious use of D, 
and significant precedents have been already created. There would be no 
better way to argue ramping up pursuit of D (including hosting of DConf 
2014) than demonstrating that talented engineers are applying to 
Facebook because it's offering such an opportunity. I am pretty sure 
this is the case for other employers as well.


Andrei
Nov 02 2013
parent reply "Era Scarecrow" <rtcvb32 yahoo.com> writes:
On Saturday, 2 November 2013 at 19:50:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:


 As I made public recently, Facebook is investigating serious 
 use of D, and significant precedents have been already created. 
 There would be no better way to argue ramping up pursuit of D 
 (including hosting of DConf 2014) than demonstrating that 
 talented engineers are applying to Facebook because it's 
 offering such an opportunity. I am pretty sure this is the case 
 for other employers as well.


  Hmmm then I wonder if they would hire me. I'm not big on 
facebook (using the site), but I wouldn't mind a job and helping 
the community at the same time.
Nov 02 2013
next sibling parent "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 05:29:45 UTC, Era Scarecrow wrote:

 On Saturday, 2 November 2013 at 19:50:48 UTC, Andrei 
 Alexandrescu wrote:


 As I made public recently, Facebook is investigating serious 
 use of D, and significant precedents have been already 
 created. There would be no better way to argue ramping up 
 pursuit of D (including hosting of DConf 2014) than 
 demonstrating that talented engineers are applying to Facebook 
 because it's offering such an opportunity. I am pretty sure 
 this is the case for other employers as well.


  Hmmm then I wonder if they would hire me. I'm not big on 
 facebook (using the site), but I wouldn't mind a job and 
 helping the community at the same time.


You won't know if you don't try ;)
Nov 02 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 11/2/13 10:29 PM, Era Scarecrow wrote:

 On Saturday, 2 November 2013 at 19:50:48 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 As I made public recently, Facebook is investigating serious use of D,
 and significant precedents have been already created. There would be
 no better way to argue ramping up pursuit of D (including hosting of
 DConf 2014) than demonstrating that talented engineers are applying to
 Facebook because it's offering such an opportunity. I am pretty sure
 this is the case for other employers as well.


   Hmmm then I wonder if they would hire me. I'm not big on facebook
 (using the site), but I wouldn't mind a job and helping the community at
 the same time.


Anyone interested send me a resume and I'll hook you in.

Andrei
Nov 02 2013
parent reply "Gary Willoughby" <dev nomad.so> writes:
On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 06:01:28 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Anyone interested send me a resume and I'll hook you in.

 Andrei


I'm not of the calibre Facebook is looking for but i had to 
exclaim that is fantastically generous of you Andrei.

I'm lucky in that i've been using D fulltime in my work since May 
and loving every minute of it. (Porting several database daemons 
from C to D, it's amazing how much less code there is in D!).
Nov 03 2013
next sibling parent "Craig Dillabaugh" <cdillaba cg.scs.carleton.ca> writes:
On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 11:47:13 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 06:01:28 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 Anyone interested send me a resume and I'll hook you in.

 Andrei


 I'm not of the calibre Facebook is looking for but i had to 
 exclaim that is fantastically generous of you Andrei.


How do you know that?  You might surprise yourself.




 I'm lucky in that i've been using D fulltime in my work since 
 May and loving every minute of it. (Porting several database 
 daemons from C to D, it's amazing how much less code there is 
 in D!).


Craig
Nov 03 2013
prev sibling parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 11:47:13 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 06:01:28 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 Anyone interested send me a resume and I'll hook you in.

 Andrei


 I'm not of the calibre Facebook is looking for but i had to 
 exclaim that is fantastically generous of you Andrei.

 I'm lucky in that i've been using D fulltime in my work since 
 May and loving every minute of it. (Porting several database 
 daemons from C to D, it's amazing how much less code there is 
 in D!).


I usually notice that people who lack doubt tends to do worse 
than the ones with doubt in their skills.
Nov 03 2013
parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 12:55:26 UTC, deadalnix wrote:

 On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 11:47:13 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 06:01:28 UTC, Andrei 
 Alexandrescu wrote:

 Anyone interested send me a resume and I'll hook you in.

 Andrei


 I'm not of the calibre Facebook is looking for but i had to 
 exclaim that is fantastically generous of you Andrei.

 I'm lucky in that i've been using D fulltime in my work since 
 May and loving every minute of it. (Porting several database 
 daemons from C to D, it's amazing how much less code there is 
 in D!).


 I usually notice that people who lack doubt tends to do worse 
 than the ones with doubt in their skills.


People with doubts: I know that I don't know everything.
People without doubts: I don't know that I don't know everything.
Nov 04 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Friday, 1 November 2013 at 17:38:01 UTC, Marenz wrote:

 Hey D Programmers,

 so, we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking 
 for D-Developers in Berlin. And lots of them. Currently still 
 D1, but the process to change to D2 is initiated.

 You can read more about it here:

 https://www.sociomantic.com/jobs/d-software-developer/#.UnPl4Xh385Y

 You can contact me anytime if you have specific questions. You 
 can find me in the IRC #d channel as Marenz, M4renz or Suprano 
 or you just send me an email.

 cheers,

     --Mathias


Want to add my 5 cents as someone who has joined the Sociomantic 
team only half an year ago. Initially my motivation was mostly 
C++ frustration outrage but I was pleasantly surprised by work 
environment here, which is very open-minded and task-focused, 
something you don't expect considering all the Germany cliches :) 
Perfection is achievable, of course, but it feels really nice to 
learn from some of active D contributors directly. And being D 
expert is not really necessary, as Don has mentioned in his DConf 
talk, converting guys from other languages is a routine :)
Nov 03 2013
parent reply "Bienlein" <jeti789 web.de> writes:
 Sociomantic team only half an year ago. Initially my motivation 
 was mostly C++ frustration outrage but I was pleasantly 
 surprised by work environment here, which is very open-minded 
 and task-focused, something you don't expect considering all 
 the Germany cliches :)


They learned this in the end from all the foreign spies in Berlin
... I started looking into D a bit mostly out of frustration with
Java staying put for years, too much dependency on XML, change
towards commodity programing, etc. Other JVM languages are either
loaded with too many incoherent features (Scala), only dynamic
add-on to Java (Groovy), not there yet (Kotlin), etc. D seems to

others), but my impression is that you should have been doing
some serious C or C++ before. I wonder whether it's worth diving
into D without a serious background in C/C++. Will be fun at
home, but jobwise it won't count. Really a pitty. Maybe the best
is to wait for Kotlin. Don't know ... What do you think how much
C/C++ skills are beneficial?

-- Bienlein
Nov 04 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 14:01:32 UTC, Bienlein wrote:

 Don't know ... What do you think how much
 C/C++ skills are beneficial?

 -- Bienlein


I think those are beneficial to dig into some more level parts 
but not absolutely necessary. As current deployed code base is 
still D1/Tango, it has look&feel quite similar to Java (contrary 
to more procedural/template thing modern Phobos endorses). Being 
a good programmer is more important than knowing a specific 
language anyway. And applying never harms ;)
Nov 04 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 14:01:32 UTC, Bienlein wrote:

 Sociomantic team only half an year ago. Initially my 
 motivation was mostly C++ frustration outrage but I was 
 pleasantly surprised by work environment here, which is very 
 open-minded and task-focused, something you don't expect 
 considering all the Germany cliches :)


 They learned this in the end from all the foreign spies in 
 Berlin
 ... I started looking into D a bit mostly out of frustration 
 with
 Java staying put for years, too much dependency on XML, change
 towards commodity programing, etc. Other JVM languages are 
 either
 loaded with too many incoherent features (Scala), only dynamic
 add-on to Java (Groovy), not there yet (Kotlin), etc. D seems to

 others), but my impression is that you should have been doing
 some serious C or C++ before. I wonder whether it's worth diving
 into D without a serious background in C/C++. Will be fun at
 home, but jobwise it won't count. Really a pitty. Maybe the best
 is to wait for Kotlin. Don't know ... What do you think how much
 C/C++ skills are beneficial?

 -- Bienlein


Knowledge of Java should be enough to get started. As with all 
new languages, you'll have to be open-minded and willing to learn 
new concepts, which is an important skill in software development 
anyway.

"Who D is Not For
- As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language for 
intermediate to advanced programmers."
(http://dlang.org/overview.html)

Since you are already unhappy with other languages and also know 
why, I think you are ready to dive into D. I'm sure you'll 
recognize most of the features in this list:

http://dlang.org/comparison.html
Nov 04 2013
parent reply "Gary Willoughby" <dev nomad.so> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)


I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
language. Remember, you wouldn't start with metaprogramming on 
day one. If you started with the basics using simple syntax and 
introduce the compiler incrementally it would be very 
educational. IMHO new programmers should start by learning how 
memory works, what binary is, how big built-in types are, etc. I 
am continually amazed when working with seasoned developers who 
have no idea why floats aren't precise, what a pointer is or what 
or bit-shifting does. It's staggering.

I personally also think BASIC is a total waste of time for 
beginners. I does something to peoples minds that once they learn 
it, they never want to use anything else ever again. I totally 
agree with the following quote:

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to 
students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential 
programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of 
regeneration." -Edsger W. Dijkstra

Years ago i was part of a BASIC community and the flamewars about 
even thinking about new technologies were something to behold.

Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
language. Simply to educate them in the basics.
Nov 04 2013
next sibling parent reply "simendsjo" <simendsjo gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)


 I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
 language.


(...)

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
 language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first 
language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might work, 
but for a 10 year-old?

And for a non-english speaker? I remember having a very hard time 
reading English books when I was younger (there might be many 
programming books for languages with a lot of speakers, but not 
for all languages), and had  difficulties grokking pointers and 
bit operations. Of course, kids today is much better at English 
at a young age due to the internet etc., but it's still a lot of 
new terminology you aren't used to.

Being in college now, I see a lot of grown-ups *really* 
struggling to grasp *basic* programming concepts using Java (even 
most of the teachers unfortunately). Starting with a limited 
language like Java probably isn't that bad until you are capable 
of both reading and writing non-trivial code.

I doubt most people here are representative for the average 
programmer. Many of the discussions here are way over my head, 
but I still hope that I'm above average.
Nov 04 2013
next sibling parent reply "Craig Dillabaugh" <cdillaba cg.scs.carleton.ca> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)






I think this claim on the website is a hold over from the dark
days of D language evolution and lack of documentation.  It
should go!


 I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
 language.




I agree.


 (...)

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
 language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


 I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first 
 language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might 
 work, but for a 10 year-old?

 And for a non-english speaker? I remember having a very hard 
 time reading English books when I was younger (there might be 
 many programming books for languages with a lot of speakers, 
 but not for all languages), and had  difficulties grokking 
 pointers and bit operations. Of course, kids today is much 
 better at English at a young age due to the internet etc., but 
 it's still a lot of new terminology you aren't used to.


But if you are Turkish, you're set!


 Being in college now, I see a lot of grown-ups *really* 
 struggling to grasp *basic* programming concepts using Java 
 (even most of the teachers unfortunately). Starting with a 
 limited language like Java probably isn't that bad until you 
 are capable of both reading and writing non-trivial code.


While D code can quickly become complex relative to Java, at the
same time I think in a beginner course/book could easily be geared
to keep away from D's fancier features and just teach basics.
For example, code for reading a text file in in Java is (top
answer on SO):

static String readFile(String path, Charset encoding)
    throws IOException
{
    byte[] encoded = Files.readAllBytes(Paths.get(path));
    return encoding.decode(ByteBuffer.wrap(encoded)).toString();
}

vs.

readText(filename)

in D. Not really up on Java these days, so perhaps Java now
includes a readText() like method now.  Anyway, hard to beat the
D version for
easy!


 I doubt most people here are representative for the average 
 programmer. Many of the discussions here are way over my head, 
 but I still hope that I'm above average.


Hey, that is how I feel.  When I talk with other programmers at
work/school I feel pretty smart.  When I come on here, I feel
like a moron.
Nov 04 2013
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 11/4/2013 12:10 PM, Craig Dillabaugh wrote:

 While D code can quickly become complex relative to Java, at the
 same time I think in a beginner course/book could easily be geared
 to keep away from D's fancier features and just teach basics.
 For example, code for reading a text file in in Java is (top
 answer on SO):

 static String readFile(String path, Charset encoding)
     throws IOException
 {
     byte[] encoded = Files.readAllBytes(Paths.get(path));
     return encoding.decode(ByteBuffer.wrap(encoded)).toString();
 }

 vs.

 readText(filename)

 in D. Not really up on Java these days, so perhaps Java now
 includes a readText() like method now.  Anyway, hard to beat the
 D version for
 easy!


Yea. In college, I was a CS tutor for the first year programming 
students. This was at a school that used Java. I can personally vouch 
that Java's a terrible language for beginners. (Well, and for everyone 
else, really ;) )

A major part of the problem is Java's religious fervor for OO. There's a 
natural tendency for the students to end up being taught OO *before* 
they have a sufficient grasp on flow-of-execution (In fact, Java makes 
it difficult for the teachers to avoid doing that.) But, OO is an 
*architectural* concept that's completely meaningless (and in my 
observations, extremely confusing) without some form of either 
imperative or declarative foundation.

The other issue is Java's insane amount of boilerplate. Great way to 
teach beginners that programming is tedious.
Nov 04 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-05 00:03, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 Yea. In college, I was a CS tutor for the first year programming
 students. This was at a school that used Java. I can personally vouch
 that Java's a terrible language for beginners. (Well, and for everyone
 else, really ;) )

 A major part of the problem is Java's religious fervor for OO. There's a
 natural tendency for the students to end up being taught OO *before*
 they have a sufficient grasp on flow-of-execution (In fact, Java makes
 it difficult for the teachers to avoid doing that.) But, OO is an
 *architectural* concept that's completely meaningless (and in my
 observations, extremely confusing) without some form of either
 imperative or declarative foundation.

 The other issue is Java's insane amount of boilerplate. Great way to
 teach beginners that programming is tedious.


We had to learn Object Oriented Analysis and Design before any 
programming in Java at the university.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Nov 05 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Bienlein" <jeti789 web.de> writes:
 A major part of the problem is Java's religious fervor for OO. 
 There's a natural tendency for the students to end up being 
 taught OO *before* they have a sufficient grasp on 
 flow-of-execution


Unhappily, a lot of Java developers out there in enterprise
computing do some kind of programming with classes, rather than
OO. For example, some framework developer intended the users to
overwrite some inherited method in their concrete subclass. As
this is not understood people do some tricks with reflection or
even byte code manipulation. When you show them that they only
need to overwrite the inherited method, then first call super and
then add their own stuff, they are surprised. And some of those
people are now architects and your boss. Oh my, oh my...

That's a reason many Java developers look at Scala as an
alternative JVM language or at something else, because it is
simply not fun any more ...

I think the first language for CS students should be one without
garbage collection. It is important to understand what a big win
a GC is if the siutation permits using one.

-- Bienlein
Nov 05 2013
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-05 12:41, Bienlein wrote:


 Unhappily, a lot of Java developers out there in enterprise
 computing do some kind of programming with classes, rather than
 OO. For example, some framework developer intended the users to
 overwrite some inherited method in their concrete subclass. As
 this is not understood people do some tricks with reflection or
 even byte code manipulation. When you show them that they only
 need to overwrite the inherited method, then first call super and
 then add their own stuff, they are surprised. And some of those
 people are now architects and your boss. Oh my, oh my...


Someone would understand byte code manipulation but not inheritance? 
Seems very strange.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Nov 05 2013
next sibling parent reply "Bienlein" <jeti789 web.de> writes:
 Someone would understand byte code manipulation but not 
 inheritance? Seems very strange.


Ah, you think it seems unbelievable? I thought so too the first
time. OOP and OOD is not on the job ads any more as earlier. They
are now filled with things like JSP, JSF, EJBs, JNDI, JTA, JMS,
SOAP, REST, ICEFaces, Spring, Ajax, OSGi, Spring, Axis, CXF,
Oracle, Sybase, DB/2, Oracle, MS-SQL, MySQL, Hibernate, Quartz,
JMeter, XSD, XSLT, JavaScript, etc.

So people after graduating are busy like hell learning some of
those things to get a job. That leaves absolutely no time to
learn OOP/OOD. So once they managed to get a job, they have to
find ways to get the work done to keep it.

Recruiters don't understand that OOP/OOD is a base technology and
many companies don't, either. A lot of Java work is getting some
coding work done. If you got that web service implemented in less
than 5 hours, then you are good. Otherwise you are bad. Nobody
will look at the code whether it reflects some design or
something. Sad, but often true out there.
Nov 05 2013
next sibling parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 12:36:21 UTC, Bienlein wrote:

 Someone would understand byte code manipulation but not 
 inheritance? Seems very strange.


 Ah, you think it seems unbelievable? I thought so too the first
 time. OOP and OOD is not on the job ads any more as earlier. 
 They
 are now filled with things like JSP, JSF, EJBs, JNDI, JTA, JMS,
 SOAP, REST, ICEFaces, Spring, Ajax, OSGi, Spring, Axis, CXF,
 Oracle, Sybase, DB/2, Oracle, MS-SQL, MySQL, Hibernate, Quartz,
 JMeter, XSD, XSLT, JavaScript, etc.

 So people after graduating are busy like hell learning some of
 those things to get a job. That leaves absolutely no time to
 learn OOP/OOD. So once they managed to get a job, they have to
 find ways to get the work done to keep it.

 Recruiters don't understand that OOP/OOD is a base technology 
 and
 many companies don't, either. A lot of Java work is getting some
 coding work done. If you got that web service implemented in 
 less
 than 5 hours, then you are good. Otherwise you are bad. Nobody
 will look at the code whether it reflects some design or
 something. Sad, but often true out there.


I'm not really surprised, given that employers (especially big 
companies) love buzz words. It's the same everywhere, not just in 
computing.
Nov 05 2013
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-05 13:36, Bienlein wrote:


 Ah, you think it seems unbelievable? I thought so too the first
 time. OOP and OOD is not on the job ads any more as earlier. They
 are now filled with things like JSP, JSF, EJBs, JNDI, JTA, JMS,
 SOAP, REST, ICEFaces, Spring, Ajax, OSGi, Spring, Axis, CXF,
 Oracle, Sybase, DB/2, Oracle, MS-SQL, MySQL, Hibernate, Quartz,
 JMeter, XSD, XSLT, JavaScript, etc.


Some of these will imply OO.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Nov 06 2013
prev sibling parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 12:24:21 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-11-05 12:41, Bienlein wrote:


 Unhappily, a lot of Java developers out there in enterprise
 computing do some kind of programming with classes, rather than
 OO. For example, some framework developer intended the users to
 overwrite some inherited method in their concrete subclass. As
 this is not understood people do some tricks with reflection or
 even byte code manipulation. When you show them that they only
 need to overwrite the inherited method, then first call super 
 and
 then add their own stuff, they are surprised. And some of those
 people are now architects and your boss. Oh my, oh my...


 Someone would understand byte code manipulation but not 
 inheritance? Seems very strange.


Well there is understanding and understanding. Yes it is quite 
common that people understand bytecode but not inheritance, from 
a software architecture point of view (not how it works). We even 
have quite a lot of instances of this in this newsgroup.
Nov 05 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-05 19:50, deadalnix wrote:


 Well there is understanding and understanding. Yes it is quite common
 that people understand bytecode but not inheritance, from a software
 architecture point of view (not how it works). We even have quite a lot
 of instances of this in this newsgroup.


Put in another way:

It seems strange someone can do bytecode manipulation but not create a 
subclass and override a method.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Nov 06 2013
prev sibling parent reply "PauloPinto" <pjmlp progtools.org> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)


 I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
 language.


 (...)

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
 language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


 I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first 
 language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might 
 work, but for a 10 year-old?


Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.
Nov 04 2013
next sibling parent reply "Era Scarecrow" <rtcvb32 yahoo.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 17:12:34 UTC, PauloPinto wrote:

 Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.


  I did x86 Assembly language at 14. Made my own compiler too, 
although I discontinued it as it was inferior to NASM, and only 
allowed you to make .com files. Still that was a fun time.

  On the other hand I recall extending the assembly language in my 
own compiler (as safe mini-macros).
Nov 04 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/4/2013 2:34 PM, Era Scarecrow wrote:

   I did x86 Assembly language at 14.


Bah. I programmed the Apollo lunar module computer for NASA when I was 8.
Nov 04 2013
parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 01:15:11 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/4/2013 2:34 PM, Era Scarecrow wrote:

  I did x86 Assembly language at 14.


 Bah. I programmed the Apollo lunar module computer for NASA 
 when I was 8.


XD
Nov 04 2013
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/4/2013 6:28 PM, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 01:15:11 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/4/2013 2:34 PM, Era Scarecrow wrote:

  I did x86 Assembly language at 14.


 Bah. I programmed the Apollo lunar module computer for NASA when I was 8.


 XD


?
Nov 04 2013
parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 02:31:25 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/4/2013 6:28 PM, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 01:15:11 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:

 On 11/4/2013 2:34 PM, Era Scarecrow wrote:

 I did x86 Assembly language at 14.


 Bah. I programmed the Apollo lunar module computer for NASA 
 when I was 8.


 XD


 ?


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/XD The first one is the right one 
here.
Nov 04 2013
parent Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Tue, 05 Nov 2013 03:40:52 +0100
schrieb "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com>:


 On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 02:31:25 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/4/2013 6:28 PM, deadalnix wrote:

 On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 01:15:11 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:

 On 11/4/2013 2:34 PM, Era Scarecrow wrote:

 I did x86 Assembly language at 14.


 Bah. I programmed the Apollo lunar module computer for NASA 
 when I was 8.


 XD


 ?


 
 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/XD The first one is the right one 
 here.


Oh no, you linked the French Wikipedia, now Walter will never
find out that it is a grining face with closed eyes.

-- 
Marco
Dec 05 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 06:12:33PM +0100, PauloPinto wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

"Who D is Not For
- As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more
suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language
for intermediate to advanced programmers."
(http://dlang.org/overview.html)


I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first
language.


(...)

Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first
language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first
language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might work,
but for a 10 year-old?


 
 Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.


I started programming Applesoft BASIC around that age too, and when I
was 14 or so, I was programming in Motorola 6502 assembly language. When
I was 16 one of my assembly programs was sold in a bookstore. Thereafter
I moved on to Intel 8088 assembly language. It was only years later, in
college, that I learned C and C++.

I think BASIC introduced me to the concept behind imperative
programming, even if at the time it has almost no structured constructs
and most programs were just GOTO spaghetti soup. Going from there to
assembly language was actually not that much of a stretch, and with big
performance payoffs, too.

Of course, the world has moved on since those days, so nowadays we don't
usually bother with that level of performance fine-tuning except in
performance critical bits of code.

But anyway, w.r.t. the OP, if I were to be in charge of designing a
curriculum, I'd put assembly language as the first language to be
learned, followed by a good high-level language like D. On this, I agree
with Knuth's sentiments:

	By understanding a machine-oriented language, the programmer
	will tend to use a much more efficient method; it is much closer
	to reality. -- D. Knuth

	People who are more than casually interested in computers should
	have at least some idea of what the underlying hardware is like.
	Otherwise the programs they write will be pretty weird. -- D.
	Knuth


T

-- 
Без труда не выловишь и рыбку из пруда.
Nov 04 2013
next sibling parent reply "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 06:21:34 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 06:12:33PM +0100, PauloPinto wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
wrote:

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

"Who D is Not For
- As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more
suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language
for intermediate to advanced programmers."
(http://dlang.org/overview.html)


I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first
language.


(...)

Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs 
first
language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a 
first
language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might 
work,
but for a 10 year-old?


 
 Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.


 I started programming Applesoft BASIC around that age too, and 
 when I
 was 14 or so, I was programming in Motorola 6502 assembly 
 language. When
 I was 16 one of my assembly programs was sold in a bookstore. 
 Thereafter
 I moved on to Intel 8088 assembly language. It was only years 
 later, in
 college, that I learned C and C++.

 I think BASIC introduced me to the concept behind imperative
 programming, even if at the time it has almost no structured 
 constructs
 and most programs were just GOTO spaghetti soup. Going from 
 there to
 assembly language was actually not that much of a stretch, and 
 with big
 performance payoffs, too.

 Of course, the world has moved on since those days, so nowadays 
 we don't
 usually bother with that level of performance fine-tuning 
 except in
 performance critical bits of code.

 But anyway, w.r.t. the OP, if I were to be in charge of 
 designing a
 curriculum, I'd put assembly language as the first language to 
 be
 learned, followed by a good high-level language like D. On 
 this, I agree
 with Knuth's sentiments:

 	By understanding a machine-oriented language, the programmer
 	will tend to use a much more efficient method; it is much 
 closer
 	to reality. -- D. Knuth

 	People who are more than casually interested in computers 
 should
 	have at least some idea of what the underlying hardware is 
 like.
 	Otherwise the programs they write will be pretty weird. -- D.
 	Knuth


 T


If someone doesn't know assembly, this book might help "Write 
Great Code, Volume 2: Thinking Low-Level, Writing High-Level".

http://www.amazon.com/Write-Great-Code-Volume-High-Level-ebook/dp/B008Z6ASGC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1383644591&sr=8-2&keywords=thinking+low+level

At least one can get an idea of what's going on under the hood. 
My old man was programming with assembly for a while and told me 
that the suicide rate among assembly programmers was quite high.

He also told me about the rule of diminishing returns*. If with 
well written C program you can get 90% of assembly's performance, 
leave it at that. If you wanna get the remaining 10% and use 
assembly instead, the cost of it may not be worth the returns.

*(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns)
Nov 05 2013
next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 11:05:40AM +0100, Chris wrote:
[...]

 If someone doesn't know assembly, this book might help "Write Great
 Code, Volume 2: Thinking Low-Level, Writing High-Level".
 
 http://www.amazon.com/Write-Great-Code-Volume-High-Level-ebook/dp/B008Z6ASGC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1383644591&sr=8-2&keywords=thinking+low+level
 
 At least one can get an idea of what's going on under the hood. My
 old man was programming with assembly for a while and told me that
 the suicide rate among assembly programmers was quite high.


I'm not surprised. Assembly programs tend to explode in complexity
exponentially as code size increases. You can only go so far before the
whole thing becomes unmanageably complex, at which point the only way to
continue is to start fixing calling conventions, naming conventions,
data structure storage formats, etc., i.e., reinvent C.



 He also told me about the rule of diminishing returns*. If with well
 written C program you can get 90% of assembly's performance, leave
 it at that. If you wanna get the remaining 10% and use assembly
 instead, the cost of it may not be worth the returns.


[...]

Well yes. My point was not to force students to write *all* their code
in assembly, but to give them some experience in writing small(!)
assembly programs so that they get a taste of how the machine actually
works under the hood. Once they have that down, I'd move straight on to
a nice high-level language like D, because in 90% of the code you write,
you don't *need* the kind of performance direct assembly coding gives
you.

That's why GCC has inline assembly extensions, and D has built-in asm
blocks: for the most part, you just write in high-level D, but for the
few bits of performance-critical code, you have the option of directly
writing in assembly.

Writing *everything* in assembly is a big waste of time, because 90% of
your code isn't part of the performance bottleneck, so you're just
making yourself suffer the tedium of assembly coding for basically zero
benefit. By writing the non-critical parts of the code in a high-level
language, you get huge savings on your development cost, but in the 10%
of the code where performance actually matters, writing in assembly can
win you huge performance gains.

The same argument goes for the GC: 90% of applications out there don't
*need* manual fine-tuning of manual memory management; you can save so
much development time (and debugging effort!) just by using the GC
instead. It's only the 10% of applications that absolutely need
performance guarantees, where you actually need to worry about manual
memory management.


T

-- 
People tell me I'm stubborn, but I refuse to accept it!
Nov 05 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-05 19:23, H. S. Teoh wrote:


 Well yes. My point was not to force students to write *all* their code
 in assembly, but to give them some experience in writing small(!)
 assembly programs so that they get a taste of how the machine actually
 works under the hood. Once they have that down, I'd move straight on to
 a nice high-level language like D, because in 90% of the code you write,
 you don't *need* the kind of performance direct assembly coding gives
 you.


Some times you need assembly, not for performance, but because it gives 
you access to hardware you don't have access to otherwise. But that will 
most likely be a very small part of your code as well.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Nov 06 2013
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/5/2013 2:05 AM, Chris wrote:

 He also told me about the rule of diminishing returns*. If with well written C
 program you can get 90% of assembly's performance, leave it at that. If you
 wanna get the remaining 10% and use assembly instead, the cost of it may not be
 worth the returns.


That wasn't really true for 16 bit DOS programs. There was a much greater
return 
for ASM programs - not just speed, but a large size reduction. The latter was 
critical because of the tight memory constraints.
Nov 05 2013
parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 19:53:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/5/2013 2:05 AM, Chris wrote:

 He also told me about the rule of diminishing returns*. If 
 with well written C
 program you can get 90% of assembly's performance, leave it at 
 that. If you
 wanna get the remaining 10% and use assembly instead, the cost 
 of it may not be
 worth the returns.


 That wasn't really true for 16 bit DOS programs. There was a 
 much greater return for ASM programs - not just speed, but a 
 large size reduction. The latter was critical because of the 
 tight memory constraints.


I have to admit that I know next to nothing about the old 16 bit 
DOS programs, and not much about ASM. I'm sure that size 
reduction was critical in 16 bit times. However, and that's what 
my old man was talking about, once a programmer left the company, 
they could bin the program, because only the author knew what was 
really going on. The new programmer had to start from scratch. It 
was not just about performance, maintenance was also an issue. 
And as regards performance, he told me that many ASM programmers 
would use the same instruction sets over and over again. They 
didn't want to use new or smarter, more efficient instructions. 
This was partly down to habit/laziness and partly to fear of 
messing up the program. So the performance gain wasn't really 
there, and after a few years a good C compiler could probably 
create better code than ASM with old and suboptimal instructions.

But I agree, it's good to know what's going on under the hood, 
how memory works. I remember a talk by a guy from YouTube. He 
pointed out that young programmers fresh from college are used to 
2GB memory and Java, only to find out that youtube has fierce 
memory restrictions.
Nov 05 2013
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 11/5/2013 1:20 AM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 06:12:33PM +0100, PauloPinto wrote:

 Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.


 I started programming Applesoft BASIC around that age too,


Yea! Applesoft BASIC!! That was my first, too :D. Learned on the Apple 
IIc with the packed-in tutorial disks (which I think are *still* better 
designs than most training materials we have today.) Later on I did a 
whole bunch of QBASIC, and a little GWBASIC.

I tried a bit of the Apple Logo too, which was nice as an electronic 
Spirograph. But it never stuck me as being quite as well-suited to 
interactive programs as basic, so I didn't use it much.

I've actually tried to trace back just when it was I started on 
Applesoft BASIC, and best I can figure I must have been around 7 or 8. I 
know I had already learned to read (obviously), and I also remember it 
was definitely before second grade (but not *immediately* before, IIRC). 
Not intending to compete on ages of course, it's just that when you're a 
kid and you're at the Grandparent's place for the evening, all the 
adults are watching the news, and the only thing remotely toy-like is an 
Apple II...well, what else you gonna do? :)



 and when I
 was 14 or so, I was programming in Motorola 6502 assembly language.


Much the same here. I was about 12 or 13 (I remember I was in 7th 
grade). Although it wasn't so much "assembly language" as it was the 
machine code memory editor built into the Apple II. Didn't do a lot with 
it though because it was very shortly after I started *trying* to learn C...



 When
 I was 16 one of my assembly programs was sold in a bookstore. Thereafter
 I moved on to Intel 8088 assembly language. It was only years later, in
 college, that I learned C and C++.


Heh, again, somewhat similar: I *tried* to learn C at 13, but found it 
awkward. So I went back to QBASIC, and later on Visual BASIC 3. When I 
was around 15, maybe 16, I found this book at the local "Electronics 
Boutique" as part of a Starter Kit bundle:

http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Game-Programming-Cd-Ro/dp/0672305623

That book made C (and pointers) finally "click" for me (plus the 
occasional 386/486/586 asm in the bottleneck sections). Then at around 
16-17, I got a Breakout/Arkanoid clone in a few of those 
several-budget-games-on-one-CD packages that were in all the computer 
stores at the time. Didn't make much off it, (even McDonald's paid more) 
but I was thrilled :)

Then in late-HS/college I did a centepede clone that didn't really take 
off (wasn't anything spectacular anyway), wound up in web development, 
and didn't really get back to indie games until now. Sometimes I'm 
amazed at some of the game-dev tools we have now (like Unity3D), and at 
other times I feel like a dinosaur playing catch-up. ;) Which is strange 
- at my age, *nothing* should be making me feel old. And yet...



 I think BASIC introduced me to the concept behind imperative
 programming,


Exactly. I feel exactly the same way about it.



 even if at the time it has almost no structured constructs
 and most programs were just GOTO spaghetti soup. Going from there to
 assembly language was actually not that much of a stretch, and with big
 performance payoffs, too.


Yea, I didn't realize it at the time, but years later it occurred to me 
just how bizarrely similar BASIC and Assembly are, considering that one 
is seen as "high-level" and the other is the quintessential "low-level".



 Of course, the world has moved on since those days, so nowadays we don't
 usually bother with that level of performance fine-tuning except in
 performance critical bits of code.


Strange thing is, I can't decide whether or not I miss it.

I certainly don't think I would want to do that sort of low-level 
tweaking on modern hardware. With all the performance-related 
complications and nuances of modern processors (even pilelining is way 
beyond old-news now), not to mention the variation, cycle counting would 
be a nightmare. Of course, I'm sure cycle counting's outdated anyway!



 But anyway, w.r.t. the OP, if I were to be in charge of designing a
 curriculum, I'd put assembly language as the first language to be
 learned, followed by a good high-level language like D. On this, I agree
 with Knuth's sentiments:

     By understanding a machine-oriented language, the programmer
     will tend to use a much more efficient method; it is much closer
     to reality. -- D. Knuth

     People who are more than casually interested in computers should
     have at least some idea of what the underlying hardware is like.
     Otherwise the programs they write will be pretty weird. -- D.
     Knuth


If I were designing a Programming 101 curriculum, I honestly don't know 
what language I'd pick. In many ways I don't think a lot of the details 
really matter much. But what I do think are the most important things in 
a first language are instant-gratification and a strong emphasis on 
flow-of-execution. Heck, I might even pick Applesoft BASIC ;)

Of course, a lot of the choice would depend on the audience. For 
graduate-level math students, Haskell would be a real possibility.
Nov 05 2013
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-11-06 04:37, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 I've actually tried to trace back just when it was I started on
 Applesoft BASIC, and best I can figure I must have been around 7 or 8. I
 know I had already learned to read (obviously), and I also remember it
 was definitely before second grade (but not *immediately* before, IIRC).
 Not intending to compete on ages of course, it's just that when you're a
 kid and you're at the Grandparent's place for the evening, all the
 adults are watching the news, and the only thing remotely toy-like is an
 Apple II...well, what else you gonna do? :)


Disassemble the TV in to small pieces so they can't watch the news :)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Nov 06 2013
prev sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh quickfur.ath.cx> writes:
On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:37:38PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
[...]

 I've actually tried to trace back just when it was I started on
 Applesoft BASIC, and best I can figure I must have been around 7 or
 8. I know I had already learned to read (obviously), and I also
 remember it was definitely before second grade (but not
 *immediately* before, IIRC). Not intending to compete on ages of
 course, it's just that when you're a kid and you're at the
 Grandparent's place for the evening, all the adults are watching the
 news, and the only thing remotely toy-like is an Apple II...well,
 what else you gonna do? :)


Funny, I got an Apple II when I was 8, and was mostly just playing games
on it. When I was 10 or 11, I got so sick of playing games that I
decided to learn programming instead (i.e., to write my own games :P).
Sadly, I never got very far on that front.


[...]

 Heh, again, somewhat similar: I *tried* to learn C at 13, but found
 it awkward. So I went back to QBASIC, and later on Visual BASIC 3.
 When I was around 15, maybe 16, I found this book at the local
 "Electronics Boutique" as part of a Starter Kit bundle:
 
 http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Game-Programming-Cd-Ro/dp/0672305623
 
 That book made C (and pointers) finally "click" for me (plus the
 occasional 386/486/586 asm in the bottleneck sections).


Really? I understood pointers right away 'cos they were just fancy
terminology for addresses in assembly language. :)



 Then at around 16-17, I got a Breakout/Arkanoid clone in a few of
 those several-budget-games-on-one-CD packages that were in all the
 computer stores at the time. Didn't make much off it, (even McDonald's
 paid more) but I was thrilled :)


Nice! I don't think I ever got that far in my attempts to write games at
the time. I was bogged down with having too many radical ideas without
the skills to actually implement them. :P


[...]

 But anyway, w.r.t. the OP, if I were to be in charge of designing a
 curriculum, I'd put assembly language as the first language to be
 learned, followed by a good high-level language like D. On this, I
 agree with Knuth's sentiments:

     By understanding a machine-oriented language, the programmer
     will tend to use a much more efficient method; it is much closer
     to reality. -- D. Knuth

     People who are more than casually interested in computers should
     have at least some idea of what the underlying hardware is like.
     Otherwise the programs they write will be pretty weird. -- D.
     Knuth


 
 If I were designing a Programming 101 curriculum, I honestly don't
 know what language I'd pick. In many ways I don't think a lot of the
 details really matter much. But what I do think are the most
 important things in a first language are instant-gratification and a
 strong emphasis on flow-of-execution. Heck, I might even pick
 Applesoft BASIC ;)


True. For a total beginner's intro to programming, assembly is probably
a bit too scary. :P  Applesoft might have been a good choice but its age
is definitely showing. I dunno. Maybe D? :) At least, the simplest parts
of it. But for computer science majors, I'd say dump assembly on them
and if they can't handle it, let them switch majors since they won't
turn out to be good programmers anyway. :P



 Of course, a lot of the choice would depend on the audience. For
 graduate-level math students, Haskell would be a real possibility.


IMNSHO, for graduate-level math students I would *definitely* start with
assembly language. It would serve to dispel the misconception that the
machine is actually capable of representing arbitrary natural numbers or
real numbers, or computing the exact value of transcendental functions,
etc.. Mathematicians tend to think in terms of idealized entities --
infinite precision, infinite representation length, etc., all of which
are impossible on an actual computer. In order to program effectively,
the first order of business is to learn the limitations of the machine,
and then learn how to translate idealized mathematical entities into the
machine's limited representation in such a way that it would be able to
compute the desired result.

In fact, now that I think of it, I think the first lecture would be to
convince them of how much computers suck -- can't represent natural
numbers, can't store real numbers, can't compute transcendental
functions, don't have infinite speed/time so only a small subset of
mathematical functions are actually computable, etc..

Then the second lecture will explain what the computer *can* do. That
would be when they'd start learning assembly language, and see for
themselves what the machine is actually doing (and thereby firmly
dispelling any remaining illusions they may have about mathematical
entities vs. what is actually representable on the machine).

Then maybe at the end of the course, after having built up a realistic
notion of what the machine is capable (and incapable) of, explain how
things may be put together to produce the illusion of mathematical
computation, say with a functional language like Haskell.

Later on, when they learn the theory of computation, I'd emphasize the
fact that even though we computer people speak of Turing completeness
all the time, actually no such computer exists that is *actually*
Turing-complete, because all physical computers have finite storage, and
therefore are no more than glorified finite-state machines. :) Of
course, that in no way makes the theory of Turing machines useless --
it's a useful idealized abstraction -- but we shouldn't be under the
illusion that we actually have access to the capabilities of an actual
Turing machine with an infinite tape. Some things are computable in
theory, but outright infeasible in practice. Like computing the
Ackermann function of Graham's number, say. :-P


T

-- 
What do you call optometrist jokes? Vitreous humor.
Nov 06 2013
next sibling parent "Meta" <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
Somewhat of a coincidence, my first *real* programming language 
was C++ (though I'd used GML/Visual Basic quite extensively 
before that), and I learned it primarily using Bartosz Milewski's 
book "C++ In Action: Industrial Strength Programming"[0]. It was 
from his site that I first learned about D.

[0]: http://www.relisoft.com/index.htm
Nov 06 2013
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 11/6/2013 1:32 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:> On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 
10:37:38PM -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 [...]

 I've actually tried to trace back just when it was I started on
 Applesoft BASIC, and best I can figure I must have been around 7 or
 8. I know I had already learned to read (obviously), and I also
 remember it was definitely before second grade (but not
 *immediately* before, IIRC). Not intending to compete on ages of
 course, it's just that when you're a kid and you're at the
 Grandparent's place for the evening, all the adults are watching the
 news, and the only thing remotely toy-like is an Apple II...well,
 what else you gonna do? :)


 Funny, I got an Apple II when I was 8, and was mostly just playing games
 on it. When I was 10 or 11, I got so sick of playing games that I
 decided to learn programming instead (i.e., to write my own games :P).
 Sadly, I never got very far on that front.


I didn't have many games on the Apple II (It was already getting a bit 
dated when I was using it, so software was hard to find. Ironically, 
it's much easier to find software for it now thanks to the Internet and 
an easy-to-build PC <-> Apple II serial cable.) But my brother and 
sister and I loved the rabbit game that came with it on one of the 
tutorial disks. Later on, I did also have 2400 A.D. (I've always loved 
that style of graphics) plus all the BASIC games I typed in from the 
"how to program in BASIC" books at the library.

Initially, the tutorial disks and BASIC were pretty much all I had to do 
on the system, so that's what I did :)


 [...]

 Heh, again, somewhat similar: I *tried* to learn C at 13, but found
 it awkward. So I went back to QBASIC, and later on Visual BASIC 3.
 When I was around 15, maybe 16, I found this book at the local
 "Electronics Boutique" as part of a Starter Kit bundle:

 




http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Game-Programming-Cd-Ro/dp/0672305623

 That book made C (and pointers) finally "click" for me (plus the
 occasional 386/486/586 asm in the bottleneck sections).


 Really? I understood pointers right away 'cos they were just fancy
 terminology for addresses in assembly language. :)


Admittedly, I hadn't gotten very far with the machine code I had done. 
Mainly just plotting some (giant) "pixels" to the lores screen.

IIRC the *main* thing about pointers I had trouble with was (no pun 
intended): What's the point? From what I had read in the intro to C 
books, they were always just described as another way to refer to a 
named variable. So I thought, "Uhh, so why not just use the actual 
variable instead?" Also the whole notion of "buffers" just 
seemed...advanced.

But then when I started to understand that arrays were nothing more than 
pointers, it all just "clicked". (It wasn't until many years later I 
realized arrays aren't *always* mere pointers depending on the language. 
But by then I'd already understood pointers and memory anyway.)


 Then at around 16-17, I got a Breakout/Arkanoid clone in a few of
 those several-budget-games-on-one-CD packages that were in all the
 computer stores at the time. Didn't make much off it, (even McDonald's
 paid more) but I was thrilled :)


 Nice! I don't think I ever got that far in my attempts to write games at
 the time. I was bogged down with having too many radical ideas without
 the skills to actually implement them. :P


Finishing is indeed one of the hardest parts. I've always had far more 
unfinished projects than finished. At the time, I probably never would 
have finished those games if it weren't for the prodding of the 
project's producer.


 Of course, a lot of the choice would depend on the audience. For
 graduate-level math students, Haskell would be a real possibility.


 IMNSHO, for graduate-level math students I would *definitely* start with
 assembly language. It would serve to dispel the misconception that the
 machine is actually capable of representing arbitrary natural numbers or
 real numbers, or computing the exact value of transcendental functions,
 etc.. Mathematicians tend to think in terms of idealized entities --
 infinite precision, infinite representation length, etc., all of which
 are impossible on an actual computer. In order to program effectively,
 the first order of business is to learn the limitations of the machine,
 and then learn how to translate idealized mathematical entities into the
 machine's limited representation in such a way that it would be able to
 compute the desired result.


That's actually a very good point.


 In fact, now that I think of it, I think the first lecture would be to
 convince them of how much computers suck -- can't represent natural
 numbers, can't store real numbers, can't compute transcendental
 functions, don't have infinite speed/time so only a small subset of
 mathematical functions are actually computable, etc..


Very good way to start a course, really. Grabs the students' attention. 
It was "unexpected approach" course introductions like that that always 
made me think "Ok, now THIS may turn out to be a pretty good class..."



 Then the second lecture will explain what the computer *can* do. That
 would be when they'd start learning assembly language, and see for
 themselves what the machine is actually doing (and thereby firmly
 dispelling any remaining illusions they may have about mathematical
 entities vs. what is actually representable on the machine).

 Then maybe at the end of the course, after having built up a realistic
 notion of what the machine is capable (and incapable) of, explain how
 things may be put together to produce the illusion of mathematical
 computation, say with a functional language like Haskell.

 Later on, when they learn the theory of computation, I'd emphasize the
 fact that even though we computer people speak of Turing completeness
 all the time, actually no such computer exists that is *actually*
 Turing-complete, because all physical computers have finite storage, and
 therefore are no more than glorified finite-state machines. :) Of
 course, that in no way makes the theory of Turing machines useless --
 it's a useful idealized abstraction -- but we shouldn't be under the
 illusion that we actually have access to the capabilities of an actual
 Turing machine with an infinite tape. Some things are computable in
 theory, but outright infeasible in practice. Like computing the
 Ackermann function of Graham's number, say. :-P


Yea, that'd be a really good class.
Nov 08 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "t-dog" <assemble mybutt.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 17:12:34 UTC, PauloPinto wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)


 I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
 language.


 (...)

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs 
 first language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


 I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a 
 first language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person 
 might work, but for a 10 year-old?


 Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.


ohhh, i see yet another e-biceps thread.
so the older architecture i know assembly for, the bigger my 
biceps is?

also Paulo, something doesnt play right here. from what you were 
saying about things you have done and when, i've gathered, that 
you should be something about 80 years old by now.

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 17:11:08 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
 language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


 In Soviet Russia you do assembly in primary school :)


not sure how much true it is in XXI century, but its funny how 
our profesor of computer architectures (who originates from 
Ukrain) assumes that we were taught physics in primary school. 
No, we were gathering pokemon cards, playing football and 
fighting each other in primary school for fuck sake

On Tuesday, 5 November 2013 at 01:15:11 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 11/4/2013 2:34 PM, Era Scarecrow wrote:

  I did x86 Assembly language at 14.


 Bah. I programmed the Apollo lunar module computer for NASA 
 when I was 8.


that is nothing. We were squashing atoms by hand in CERN with 
Paulo when we were 5.

back to the topic.

i wonder how big earnings in Soctiomantic are, given that you are 
told to program in rather exotic programming language (exotic as 
non-main stream enough).
Nov 05 2013
parent Robert Schadek <realburner gmx.de> writes:
On 11/05/2013 11:56 AM, t-dog wrote:

+1
Nov 05 2013
prev sibling parent reply Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Mon, 04 Nov 2013 18:12:33 +0100
schrieb "PauloPinto" <pjmlp progtools.org>:


 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)


 I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
 language.


 (...)

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
 language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


 I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first 
 language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might 
 work, but for a 10 year-old?


 
 Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.


I looked at Gorillaz QBasic code when my father bought our
first computer (286 PC without FPU, FPUs were out). So I
started there, and look, I could still learn other imperative
languages like D, Delphi or C++. Just not LISP or Haskell.

-- 
Marco
Dec 05 2013
parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 05/12/13 10:29, Marco Leise wrote:

 I looked at Gorillaz QBasic code when my father bought our
 first computer (286 PC without FPU, FPUs were out). So I
 started there, and look, I could still learn other imperative
 languages like D, Delphi or C++. Just not LISP or Haskell.


One of the very widespread "educational" computer programs in the UK was LOGO, 
which came with the BBC Micro and even had a real, robotic turtle that you
could 
plug into the computer and guide around instead of using the "turtle" cursor on 
the screen.

Of course, we all used it as what it seemed to be, which was a fun program for 
drawing stuff.  But actually LOGO is a dialect of Lisp, and in retrospect I
wish 
I'd learned more about it ...
Dec 06 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
 language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


In Soviet Russia you do assembly in primary school :)
Nov 04 2013
parent "Max Samukha" <maxsamukha gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 17:11:08 UTC, Dicebot wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first 
 language. Simply to educate them in the basics.


 In Soviet Russia you do assembly in primary school :)


Hehe, that's what I did. For
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KR580VM80A, an i8080 replica. 
Actually, I managed to write my first working assembly program by 
POKEing machine codes form BASIC. The machine didn't have a 
display, so I was entering the commands by touch. Unforgettable 
experience.
Dec 04 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "qznc" <qznc web.de> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)


 I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
 language. Remember, you wouldn't start with metaprogramming on 
 day one. If you started with the basics using simple syntax and 
 introduce the compiler incrementally it would be very 
 educational. IMHO new programmers should start by learning how 
 memory works, what binary is, how big built-in types are, etc. 
 I am continually amazed when working with seasoned developers 
 who have no idea why floats aren't precise, what a pointer is 
 or what or bit-shifting does. It's staggering.


We need an environment with lots of instant gratification. This 
is more important than language features. People even use C++ as 
first language due to libraries like Cinder. http://libcinder.org/
Nov 04 2013
parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 17:30:58 UTC, qznc wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby 
 wrote:

 On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:

 "Who D is Not For
 - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more 
 suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language 
 for intermediate to advanced programmers."
 (http://dlang.org/overview.html)


 I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first 
 language. Remember, you wouldn't start with metaprogramming on 
 day one. If you started with the basics using simple syntax 
 and introduce the compiler incrementally it would be very 
 educational. IMHO new programmers should start by learning how 
 memory works, what binary is, how big built-in types are, etc. 
 I am continually amazed when working with seasoned developers 
 who have no idea why floats aren't precise, what a pointer is 
 or what or bit-shifting does. It's staggering.


 We need an environment with lots of instant gratification. This 
 is more important than language features. People even use C++ 
 as first language due to libraries like Cinder. 
 http://libcinder.org/


Both are equally important. Instant gratification instead of 
frustration is important. And with D you can get both. One can 
write simple programs (e.g. readText()) and if needs be dig 
deeper and see what's going on under the hood. I wouldn't 
sacrifice features for gratification. Good features attract 
experienced or highly specialized programmers, while easy high 
level features help newbies to get up to speed.
Nov 04 2013
prev sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 11/4/2013 11:22 AM, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 I personally also think BASIC is a total waste of time for beginners. I
 does something to peoples minds that once they learn it, they never want
 to use anything else ever again. I totally agree with the following quote:

 "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that
 have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are
 mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." -Edsger W. Dijkstra


Bah. I started with various flavors of basic, then moved straight to 
C/C++ and a little bit of 6502 machine code, and then to a bunch of 
others including D. I've known other people who have successfully done 
much the same.

Dijkstra's full of shit on that one.
Nov 04 2013
prev sibling parent "Chris" <wendlec tcd.ie> writes:
On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 14:01:32 UTC, Bienlein wrote:

 Will be fun at
 home, but jobwise it won't count. Really a pitty.

 -- Bienlein


You never know. If you're interested in D, go for it, you have 
got nothing to lose. Maybe companies will soon look for 
programmers with skills in D.
Nov 04 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent "Moritz Maxeiner" <moritz ucworks.org> writes:
On Friday, 1 November 2013 at 17:38:01 UTC, Marenz wrote:

 Hey D Programmers,

 so, we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking 
 for D-Developers in Berlin. And lots of them. Currently still 
 D1, but the process to change to D2 is initiated.

 You can read more about it here:

 https://www.sociomantic.com/jobs/d-software-developer/#.UnPl4Xh385Y

 You can contact me anytime if you have specific questions. You 
 can find me in the IRC #d channel as Marenz, M4renz or Suprano 
 or you just send me an email.

 cheers,

     --Mathias


Hi,

I tried contacting you via email (your  sociomantic adress) last 
weekend and I've been trying to talk to you on IRC a couple of 
time over the last week (on your Nicks M4renz and Marenz), but 
never got a reply to my questions, which is why I will ask here 
now:

Do you also provide internships for BSc students of computer 
science ("Informatik") in Berlin? We are required to complete one 
("Berufspraktikum") and I'd like to know if it would be possible 
to do so at Sociomantic Labs.

Regards,
   Moritz
Nov 09 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 11/1/13, Marenz <mathias.baumann sociomantic.com> wrote:

 we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking for
 D-Developers in Berlin.


Does that imply only people living near to Berlin should apply? If
not, what does Sociomantic offer for people living abroad, e.g.
perhaps some kind of rent financing?
Dec 04 2013
next sibling parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2013 at 20:24:37 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic 
wrote:

 On 11/1/13, Marenz <mathias.baumann sociomantic.com> wrote:

 we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking for
 D-Developers in Berlin.


 Does that imply only people living near to Berlin should apply? 
 If
 not, what does Sociomantic offer for people living abroad, e.g.
 perhaps some kind of rent financing?


I'll forward this question to HR ;) (I was relocating from 
another EU country and it was just matter of buying a plane 
ticket)
Dec 04 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Don" <x nospam.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2013 at 20:24:37 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic 
wrote:

 On 11/1/13, Marenz <mathias.baumann sociomantic.com> wrote:

 we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking for
 D-Developers in Berlin.


 Does that imply only people living near to Berlin should apply?


Definitely not! Most of our programmers were not living in Berlin 
when they applied.


 If
 not, what does Sociomantic offer for people living abroad, e.g.
 perhaps some kind of rent financing?


Our team is *very* international, with about thirty nationalities 
represented.
We have a lot of experience with relocation. It's completely 
normal for us.
Dec 05 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 12/5/13, Don <x nospam.com> wrote:

 We have a lot of experience with relocation. It's completely
 normal for us.


That's great to hear. My main concern is having a place to stay. I'm
not financially capable right now, unfortunately.
Dec 05 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/5/13 3:32 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/5/13, Don <x nospam.com> wrote:

 We have a lot of experience with relocation. It's completely
 normal for us.


 That's great to hear. My main concern is having a place to stay. I'm
 not financially capable right now, unfortunately.


I was in the same situation back in the 1990s. I recall to this day the 
advice from a genius older programmer: "You can do good work. All you 
need now is a source of money." Back then I wasn't entirely clear what 
he meant because I didn't realize what money people are willing to pay 
for the right skills.

The right approach is indeed to get a source of money. That works quite 
simply: (a) ace the interview; (b) tell what they need to do for them to 
secure your skills. You quite literally have something to sell that has 
a good value, and they need to assess that. Worrying about a place to 
live at your new location breaks sequence. I had only $300 in my pocket 
when I landed in New York in 1998, but also a paying job.


Andrei
Dec 05 2013
parent "eles" <eles eles.com> writes:
On Thursday, 5 December 2013 at 15:11:07 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 12/5/13 3:32 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/5/13, Don <x nospam.com> wrote:





 assess that. Worrying about a place to live at your new 
 location breaks sequence. I had only $300 in my pocket when I


Yes. Good advice, I concede. Dura lex, sed lex.
Dec 05 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 5 December 2013 at 11:32:57 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic 
wrote:

 On 12/5/13, Don <x nospam.com> wrote:

 We have a lot of experience with relocation. It's completely
 normal for us.


 That's great to hear. My main concern is having a place to 
 stay. I'm
 not financially capable right now, unfortunately.


Just got the formal confirmation from HR - you can certainly 
expect some extra help during first months to get settled. If you 
apply via careers sociomantic.com , just mention your concerns in 
e-mail / during interview to get any specific details.
Dec 05 2013
parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 12/5/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 Just got the formal confirmation from HR - you can certainly
 expect some extra help during first months to get settled. If you
 apply via careers sociomantic.com , just mention your concerns in
 e-mail / during interview to get any specific details.


Well I'll certainly think about writing a resume / application. But I
don't think I have much chances. I don't have a CS degree, and my work
experience is not programming-related. I don't have experience with
distributed architectures either.
Dec 06 2013
next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Friday, 6 December 2013 at 12:37:48 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/5/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 Just got the formal confirmation from HR - you can certainly
 expect some extra help during first months to get settled. If 
 you
 apply via careers sociomantic.com , just mention your concerns 
 in
 e-mail / during interview to get any specific details.


 Well I'll certainly think about writing a resume / application. 
 But I
 don't think I have much chances. I don't have a CS degree, and 
 my work
 experience is not programming-related. I don't have experience 
 with
 distributed architectures either.


Come on, don't be silly :P I don't have a CS degree too (I don't 
have any degree at all). That wasn't an issue at all. And 
https://github.com/AndrejMitrovic?tab=activity speaks on its own.

There is no harm in applying.
Dec 06 2013
parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 12/6/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 Come on, don't be silly :P I don't have a CS degree too (I don't
 have any degree at all). That wasn't an issue at all. And
 https://github.com/AndrejMitrovic?tab=activity speaks on its own.

 There is no harm in applying.


Cool. Do you have any tips or must-haves for the resume? I've written
a few but never in English or ones targeting a firm abroad.
Dec 06 2013
parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Friday, 6 December 2013 at 12:52:24 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/6/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 Come on, don't be silly :P I don't have a CS degree too (I 
 don't
 have any degree at all). That wasn't an issue at all. And
 https://github.com/AndrejMitrovic?tab=activity speaks on its 
 own.

 There is no harm in applying.


 Cool. Do you have any tips or must-haves for the resume? I've 
 written
 a few but never in English or ones targeting a firm abroad.


[13:56:54] Marenz: real programmers have crappy CVs
[13:56:57] Marenz: BECAUSE WE CAN

No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here by 
programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on 
technical details is appreciated, as well as any links to 
open-source activity.
Dec 06 2013
next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-06 14:02, Dicebot wrote:


 [13:56:54] Marenz: real programmers have crappy CVs
 [13:56:57] Marenz: BECAUSE WE CAN

 No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here by
 programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on technical
 details is appreciated, as well as any links to open-source activity.


Really? That's an enormous advantage. Compared to HR people which will 
not even look at a CV unless you have a fancy degree.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Dec 06 2013
parent reply "Craig Dillabaugh" <craig.dillabaugh gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 6 December 2013 at 13:11:37 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 2013-12-06 14:02, Dicebot wrote:


 [13:56:54] Marenz: real programmers have crappy CVs
 [13:56:57] Marenz: BECAUSE WE CAN

 No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here by
 programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on 
 technical
 details is appreciated, as well as any links to open-source 
 activity.


 Really? That's an enormous advantage. Compared to HR people 
 which will not even look at a CV unless you have a fancy degree.


Better yet are organizations that use computer programs to screen 
the resumes.  At one time I applied to tonnes of positions with 
the Canadian gov't and never got an interview even when my skills 
matched the job description perfectly.  Then I realized that the 
trick was to copy and paste the job description into my resume, 
and just work my experience around it.  All of the sudden I 
started getting interviews.

Often they would have a form where you had to fill in your 
Education, so they would 100% for sure screen out someone without 
a degree. I think they would do better if managers just went back 
to hiring family members :o)
Dec 06 2013
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2013-12-06 15:47, Craig Dillabaugh wrote:


 Better yet are organizations that use computer programs to screen the
 resumes.  At one time I applied to tonnes of positions with the Canadian
 gov't and never got an interview even when my skills matched the job
 description perfectly.  Then I realized that the trick was to copy and
 paste the job description into my resume, and just work my experience
 around it.  All of the sudden I started getting interviews.


Haha, that sucks.


 Often they would have a form where you had to fill in your Education, so
 they would 100% for sure screen out someone without a degree. I think
 they would do better if managers just went back to hiring family members
 :o)


Yeah. These they you can upload a Word document or PDF and they will 
screen that.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Dec 06 2013
prev sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 12/6/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here by
 programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on
 technical details is appreciated, as well as any links to
 open-source activity.


Thanks. I've sent something. We'll see. :p
Dec 06 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/6/13 7:26 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/6/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here by
 programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on
 technical details is appreciated, as well as any links to
 open-source activity.


 Thanks. I've sent something. We'll see. :p


Good luck!

Andrei
Dec 06 2013
next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 12/6/13, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 12/6/13 7:26 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/6/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here by
 programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on
 technical details is appreciated, as well as any links to
 open-source activity.


 Thanks. I've sent something. We'll see. :p


 Good luck!

 Andrei


Looks like Sociomantic just grabbed themselves another D dev.
Feb 11 2014
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 2/11/14, 10:19 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/6/13, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 On 12/6/13 7:26 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/6/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here by
 programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on
 technical details is appreciated, as well as any links to
 open-source activity.


 Thanks. I've sent something. We'll see. :p


 Good luck!

 Andrei


 Looks like Sociomantic just grabbed themselves another D dev.


Awesome. Congratulations!!

Andrei
Feb 11 2014
parent reply "Andrej Mitrovic" <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 February 2014 at 18:53:08 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 Awesome. Congratulations!!


Thanks! Can you believe I thought this was just going to be 
another one of those "let's throw something on the wall, and see 
if it sticks?" moments? I honestly thought my chances were 
effectively zero, not because of my own abilities, but because 
the competition out there is fierce.
Feb 11 2014
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 2/11/14, 10:57 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 February 2014 at 18:53:08 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Awesome. Congratulations!!


 Thanks! Can you believe I thought this was just going to be another one
 of those "let's throw something on the wall, and see if it sticks?"
 moments? I honestly thought my chances were effectively zero, not
 because of my own abilities, but because the competition out there is
 fierce.


It was a shock to me, too, to figure how much people are willing to pay 
for my mediocrity.

Andrei
Feb 11 2014
parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:23:00 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:


 On 2/11/14, 10:57 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 February 2014 at 18:53:08 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Awesome. Congratulations!!


 Thanks! Can you believe I thought this was just going to be another one
 of those "let's throw something on the wall, and see if it sticks?"
 moments? I honestly thought my chances were effectively zero, not
 because of my own abilities, but because the competition out there is
 fierce.


 It was a shock to me, too, to figure how much people are willing to pay  
 for my mediocrity.


#humblebrag
Feb 11 2014
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 2/11/14, 11:24 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:23:00 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu
 <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:


 On 2/11/14, 10:57 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On Tuesday, 11 February 2014 at 18:53:08 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Awesome. Congratulations!!


 Thanks! Can you believe I thought this was just going to be another one
 of those "let's throw something on the wall, and see if it sticks?"
 moments? I honestly thought my chances were effectively zero, not
 because of my own abilities, but because the competition out there is
 fierce.


 It was a shock to me, too, to figure how much people are willing to
 pay for my mediocrity.


 #humblebrag


It would be if it weren't true. I forgot whether I mentioned this story 
herein: I once did some training for a company in Tokyo. They asked me 
for a quote, and I sent them one. They mistakenly read one extra zero at 
the end.

Andrei
Feb 11 2014
prev sibling parent "nazriel" <spam dzfl.pl> writes:
On Tuesday, 11 February 2014 at 18:19:18 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic 
wrote:

 On 12/6/13, Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> 
 wrote:

 On 12/6/13 7:26 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/6/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 No real must-haves. Just be aware that CV's are checked here 
 by
 programmers, not HR's, so keeping it short and focused on
 technical details is appreciated, as well as any links to
 open-source activity.


 Thanks. I've sent something. We'll see. :p


 Good luck!

 Andrei


 Looks like Sociomantic just grabbed themselves another D dev.


Very nice!
Congrats Andrej
Feb 11 2014
prev sibling parent Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling webdrake.net> writes:
On 11/02/14 19:19, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 Looks like Sociomantic just grabbed themselves another D dev.


Congratulations! :-)
Feb 11 2014
prev sibling parent reply "Craig Dillabaugh" <craig.dillabaugh gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 6 December 2013 at 12:37:48 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/5/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 Just got the formal confirmation from HR - you can certainly
 expect some extra help during first months to get settled. If 
 you
 apply via careers sociomantic.com , just mention your concerns 
 in
 e-mail / during interview to get any specific details.


 Well I'll certainly think about writing a resume / application. 
 But I
 don't think I have much chances. I don't have a CS degree, and 
 my work
 experience is not programming-related. I don't have experience 
 with
 distributed architectures either.


I can't really speak for Sociomantic, but really if you are smart 
and a good coder that should count as much or more than a CS 
degree.  You can't teach smart! If you have code you have written 
on github (or anywhere else out there) then make them aware of 
that.  If you have contributed to DMD, Phobos it is likely more 
advanced than a lot of full-time jobs for new grads anyways. So 
while you may not have 'paid' work experience you can demonstrate 
that you have real world experience.
Dec 06 2013
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/6/13 4:49 AM, Craig Dillabaugh wrote:

 On Friday, 6 December 2013 at 12:37:48 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 12/5/13, Dicebot <public dicebot.lv> wrote:

 Just got the formal confirmation from HR - you can certainly
 expect some extra help during first months to get settled. If you
 apply via careers sociomantic.com , just mention your concerns in
 e-mail / during interview to get any specific details.


 Well I'll certainly think about writing a resume / application. But I
 don't think I have much chances. I don't have a CS degree, and my work
 experience is not programming-related. I don't have experience with
 distributed architectures either.


 I can't really speak for Sociomantic, but really if you are smart and a
 good coder that should count as much or more than a CS degree.  You
 can't teach smart! If you have code you have written on github (or
 anywhere else out there) then make them aware of that.  If you have
 contributed to DMD, Phobos it is likely more advanced than a lot of
 full-time jobs for new grads anyways. So while you may not have 'paid'
 work experience you can demonstrate that you have real world experience.


Degrees help for things like immigration, where some bureaucratic rules 
must be obeyed. There may be country laws that prohibit certain 
positions without the degree. Otherwise they should be mostly advisory 
for a good company. One of the best engineers at Facebook doesn't have a 
degree and was homeless at hire time. He failed two of three interviews, 
too. True story.

Andrei
Dec 06 2013
parent reply "Max Samukha" <maxsamukha gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 6 December 2013 at 21:06:43 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:


 Degrees help for things like immigration, where some 
 bureaucratic rules must be obeyed. There may be country laws 
 that prohibit certain positions without the degree. Otherwise 
 they should be mostly advisory for a good company. One of the 
 best engineers at Facebook doesn't have a degree and was 
 homeless at hire time. He failed two of three interviews, too. 
 True story.


I somewhat regret I do not have a solid formal background in a 
field involving higher math. Educating oneself on the hoof is a 
rather painful process, though it has some advantages.
Dec 06 2013
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/6/13 1:40 PM, Max Samukha wrote:

 On Friday, 6 December 2013 at 21:06:43 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:


 Degrees help for things like immigration, where some bureaucratic
 rules must be obeyed. There may be country laws that prohibit certain
 positions without the degree. Otherwise they should be mostly advisory
 for a good company. One of the best engineers at Facebook doesn't have
 a degree and was homeless at hire time. He failed two of three
 interviews, too. True story.


 I somewhat regret I do not have a solid formal background in a field
 involving higher math. Educating oneself on the hoof is a rather painful
 process, though it has some advantages.


Then do what I did. I started in the PhD program at 32.

Andrei
Dec 06 2013
prev sibling parent "eles" <eles eles.com> writes:
On Thursday, 5 December 2013 at 09:01:31 UTC, Don wrote:

 On Wednesday, 4 December 2013 at 20:24:37 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic 
 wrote:

 On 11/1/13, Marenz <mathias.baumann sociomantic.com> wrote:





 Our team is *very* international, with about thirty 
 nationalities represented.
 We have a lot of experience with relocation. It's completely 
 normal for us.


Sorry to hijack (a bit) this thread, but I would like to ask two 
or three things about working in Germany (Berlin and 
Frankfurt-am-Main are the places that interest me).

* what salary could an engineer with 8 y experience (4 in 
electrical, 4 in software) ask for in Germany
* what would be the rent for two-bedroom flat in the 
not-so-far-from-the-downtown area?

Thanks.
Dec 05 2013
prev sibling next sibling parent Robert Schadek <realburner gmx.de> writes:
On 12/04/2013 09:24 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:

 On 11/1/13, Marenz <mathias.baumann sociomantic.com> wrote:

 we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking for
 D-Developers in Berlin.


 Does that imply only people living near to Berlin should apply? If
 not, what does Sociomantic offer for people living abroad, e.g.
 perhaps some kind of rent financing?


properly not, as long as our a citizen of the European Union working in
Berlin/Germany is easy, just move there. any other country, I'm not sure.
Dec 04 2013
prev sibling parent reply "Max Samukha" <maxsamukha gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 1 November 2013 at 17:38:01 UTC, Marenz wrote:

 Hey D Programmers,

 so, we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking 
 for D-Developers in Berlin. And lots of them. Currently still 
 D1, but the process to change to D2 is initiated.


How can one still program in D1? ;)


 You can read more about it here:

 https://www.sociomantic.com/jobs/d-software-developer/#.UnPl4Xh385Y

 You can contact me anytime if you have specific questions. You 
 can find me in the IRC #d channel as Marenz, M4renz or Suprano 
 or you just send me an email.

 cheers,

     --Mathias
Dec 04 2013
parent "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Wednesday, 4 December 2013 at 21:54:38 UTC, Max Samukha wrote:

 On Friday, 1 November 2013 at 17:38:01 UTC, Marenz wrote:

 Hey D Programmers,

 so, we at Sociomantic Labs are once again (or still) looking 
 for D-Developers in Berlin. And lots of them. Currently still 
 D1, but the process to change to D2 is initiated.


 How can one still program in D1? ;)


Not very convenient but still better than C++ ;)
Dec 04 2013