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digitalmars.D - Cool Stuff for D that we keep Secret

reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Vladimir's talk on Dustmite is now up on Reddit. We ship Dustmite as part of
the 
dmd distribution.

But it's a secret.

Just try to find out anything or any mention of Dustmite on dlang.org.

The idea "Build It, and They Will Come" is a stupid hollywood myth. We cannot
go 
on with creating fantastic, revolutionary tools and then keep them a secret.

Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because I went 
looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the video. It fits in 
quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering there were no links to gdc 
or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one
only 
needs to type:

    sudo apt-get install gdc

All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make it 
findable by users. /rant
Jul 09 2014
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Coincidentally, this just got posted:

"I thought I had a pretty good idea of what was happening in the D community - 
why haven't I heard more about digger? Sounds like a very useful. Has it only 
been a "one post to D.Announce"? Is it planned to be added to dtools? I could 
only find a reference as a link on wiki.dlang.org - no page by itself.
You should really promote the tools you make!"


 
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2a8xf4/dconf_2014_day_2_talk_4_reducing_d_bugs_by/cisuuag
Jul 09 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Johannes Pfau <nospam example.com> writes:
Am Wed, 09 Jul 2014 12:21:21 -0700
schrieb Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>:


 It fits in 
 quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering there were no
 links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere that to get
 gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:
 
     sudo apt-get install gdc
 
 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't
 make it findable by users. /rant


We link all linux distribution packages from
http://gdcproject.org/downloads/
and I'd expect a linux user to know how to install a package for his
distribution if he knows the package name.

It's also mentioned on http://wiki.dlang.org/GDC and
http://dlang.org/download.html links to
http://gdcproject.org/downloads/ as well.

The dlang page doesn't list all downloads or distribution packages, but
I don't want to duplicate information on two pages and keep them
synchronized and up-to-date.


I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which is
often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org is
much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to merge
pull requests, etc.
Jul 09 2014
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/9/14, 2:46 PM, Johannes Pfau wrote:

 Am Wed, 09 Jul 2014 12:21:21 -0700
 schrieb Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com>:


 It fits in
 quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering there were no
 links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere that to get
 gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:

      sudo apt-get install gdc

 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't
 make it findable by users. /rant


 We link all linux distribution packages from
 http://gdcproject.org/downloads/
 and I'd expect a linux user to know how to install a package for his
 distribution if he knows the package name.

 It's also mentioned on http://wiki.dlang.org/GDC and
 http://dlang.org/download.html links to
 http://gdcproject.org/downloads/ as well.

 The dlang page doesn't list all downloads or distribution packages, but
 I don't want to duplicate information on two pages and keep them
 synchronized and up-to-date.


That strikes me like a suboptimal metric to optimize for.


 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which is
 often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org is
 much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to merge
 pull requests, etc.


dlang.org is authoritative. Again optimizing for ease of contribution is 
nice but the real prize is propagating information to the end user.


Andrei
Jul 09 2014
next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 02:52:34PM -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On 7/9/14, 2:46 PM, Johannes Pfau wrote:

Am Wed, 09 Jul 2014 12:21:21 -0700




[...]

I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which
is often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org
is much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to
merge pull requests, etc.


 
 dlang.org is authoritative. Again optimizing for ease of contribution
 is nice but the real prize is propagating information to the end user.


[...]

So why not link to select wiki pages from dlang.org?


T

-- 
Why waste time reinventing the wheel, when you could be reinventing the engine?
-- Damian Conway
Jul 09 2014
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/9/2014 2:59 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 So why not link to select wiki pages from dlang.org?


Not a bad idea. Want to take charge of doing this?
Jul 09 2014
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/9/14, 2:59 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 02:52:34PM -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu via
Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 7/9/14, 2:46 PM, Johannes Pfau wrote:

 Am Wed, 09 Jul 2014 12:21:21 -0700




 [...]

 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which
 is often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org
 is much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to
 merge pull requests, etc.


 dlang.org is authoritative. Again optimizing for ease of contribution
 is nice but the real prize is propagating information to the end user.


 [...]

 So why not link to select wiki pages from dlang.org?


Where's the pull request?

Back when I had just started in grad school, I was talking to an older 
fellow student with whom I shared the adviser. I mentioned the advisor 
had mentioned in passing I should do something (forgot what, maybe read 
a paper or register for a conference) but didn't follow through with it. 
My labmate stopped me in my tracks: "Dude, as soon as something reached 
the level of consciousness of the adviser enough to be mentioned, you 
take it and run with it. Adviser won't bother insisting about it."

Walter and I are busy enough as is working on D to NOT have new work cut 
out for us. Please steal any work you can from us.


Andrei
Jul 09 2014
parent reply Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Wed, 09 Jul 2014 16:21:46 -0700
schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org>:


 On 7/9/14, 2:59 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 So why not link to select wiki pages from dlang.org?


=20
 Where's the pull request?
=20
 [=E2=80=A6]

 Walter and I are busy enough as is working on D to NOT have new work cut=


=20

 out for us. Please steal any work you can from us.
=20
=20
 Andrei


I'm sure most of the NG folks worry about stepping on
someone's toe by making pull requests for the official
language website without getting an ok from whoever designed
it and from Walter and you.
=46rom my perspective the design between Wiki and front page is
wildly different and causes a friction when navigating the
website. It is possible someone writes a pull request,
someone else who is uninvolved with the web site gives it an ok
and later the original author is frustrated because he
intentionally separated the Wiki from the static part of
dlang.org.
(Not to say there isn't more talk than action etc., but we
 shouldn't pass changes over the respective web site
 lieutenant.)

--=20
Marco
Jul 14 2014
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/14/2014 4:11 AM, Marco Leise wrote:

 I'm sure most of the NG folks worry about stepping on
 someone's toe by making pull requests for the official
 language website without getting an ok from whoever designed
 it and from Walter and you.


The whole point of PR's is you will NOT be stepping on anyone's toes.
Jul 14 2014
parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 03:31:37PM -0700, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 7/14/2014 4:11 AM, Marco Leise wrote:

I'm sure most of the NG folks worry about stepping on
someone's toe by making pull requests for the official
language website without getting an ok from whoever designed
it and from Walter and you.


 
 The whole point of PR's is you will NOT be stepping on anyone's toes.


Yeah, how is submitting PR's stepping on anyone's toes? The worst that
could happen is that it gets rejected.

The whole point of using github is to solicit PR's, is it not? :-)
Otherwise Walter could just keep the code private and only release
binaries.


T

-- 
Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the
universe are pointed away from Earth? -- Michael Beibl
Jul 14 2014
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/9/2014 2:52 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 The dlang page doesn't list all downloads or distribution packages, but
 I don't want to duplicate information on two pages and keep them
 synchronized and up-to-date.


 That strikes me like a suboptimal metric to optimize for.


 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which is
 often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org is
 much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to merge
 pull requests, etc.


 dlang.org is authoritative. Again optimizing for ease of contribution is nice
 but the real prize is propagating information to the end user.


+1 and I want to emphasize that I could find no mention of Dustmite on
dlang.org.

Now, for gdc and ldc. Go to dlang.org. Where do I go? I click on "Downloads & 
Tools". This takes me to:

    https://dlang.org/download.html

Where are there any instructions? There's a bunch of links to binaries. I see 
nothing for LDC. I see nothing for DMD. I see a link on the left to "GDC D 
Compiler". Clicking on that, I see nothing mentioning that I can get it on 
Ubuntu with:

     sudo apt-get install gdc

Not even when I click on "downloads" followed by "Ubuntu".

The "Linux notes" should say "Linux DMD Compiler", etc.

"DMD Script Shell" should say "rdmd script shell".

"Debugger" leads to "HTTP 404 Not Found" (this is pretty embarrassing)

The navigation on that page needs a complete do-over and the most basic things 
people will be looking for are missing.
Jul 09 2014
next sibling parent reply "w0rp" <devw0rp gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 22:48:43 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 7/9/2014 2:52 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 The dlang page doesn't list all downloads or distribution 
 packages, but
 I don't want to duplicate information on two pages and keep 
 them
 synchronized and up-to-date.


 That strikes me like a suboptimal metric to optimize for.


 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, 
 which is
 often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, 
 wiki.dlang.org is
 much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody 
 to merge
 pull requests, etc.


 dlang.org is authoritative. Again optimizing for ease of 
 contribution is nice
 but the real prize is propagating information to the end user.


 +1 and I want to emphasize that I could find no mention of 
 Dustmite on dlang.org.

 Now, for gdc and ldc. Go to dlang.org. Where do I go? I click 
 on "Downloads & Tools". This takes me to:

    https://dlang.org/download.html

 Where are there any instructions? There's a bunch of links to 
 binaries. I see nothing for LDC. I see nothing for DMD. I see a 
 link on the left to "GDC D Compiler". Clicking on that, I see 
 nothing mentioning that I can get it on Ubuntu with:

     sudo apt-get install gdc

 Not even when I click on "downloads" followed by "Ubuntu".

 The "Linux notes" should say "Linux DMD Compiler", etc.

 "DMD Script Shell" should say "rdmd script shell".

 "Debugger" leads to "HTTP 404 Not Found" (this is pretty 
 embarrassing)

 The navigation on that page needs a complete do-over and the 
 most basic things people will be looking for are missing.


http://w0rp.com:8010/download

The download page is the page I've changed the most thus far. I 
started by taking the different D compilers and so on and 
breaking them into headings with short paragraphs explaining what 
each is. I was thinking of putting sections in there for 
instructions for installing on popular Linux distributions.

I'm not the best copy writer in the world, but if anyone feels 
like writing something for this now, go for it.

https://github.com/w0rp/new-dlang.org/blob/master/markdown/basic/download.md

Aside project note: I'm working on the library documentation 
pages currently. They are now integrated, but I'm going to be 
spending quite a few hours playing with CSS and such before I 
show it off.
Jul 09 2014
parent reply Marco Leise <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am Wed, 09 Jul 2014 23:56:20 +0000
schrieb "w0rp" <devw0rp gmail.com>:


 http://w0rp.com:8010/download
=20
 The download page is the page I've changed the most thus far. I=20
 started by taking the different D compilers and so on and=20
 breaking them into headings with short paragraphs explaining what=20
 each is. I was thinking of putting sections in there for=20
 instructions for installing on popular Linux distributions.

 [=E2=80=A6]


I'm getting strange question marks on the right side bar in
Opera 12/Linux:
DMD ? Version 1
DMC ? Digital Mars C and C++ Compiler

The version on the top left is more visibly separated and
overall the design feels more light weight with all the
spacing. The list of installers is now a bit too slim for my
taste. I miss the information about the type of download. For
example that the OS X version is a DMG package, or that the
"All platforms" version is a ZIP also containing the sources.
In a way I liked those old-school HTML tables with images.
Personally I could never make friends with the "Windows 8
Metro" design built on two or three colors and flat
rectangles. It feels so 80s to me.

Then I wondered if the "Documentation" section should be
renamed "Language Specifications" and the links renamed to
"DMD 1" and "DMD 2" or if they should be merged into the
sections for DMD 1 and DMD 2 respectively, because 7 year old
DMD 1 specs are now pretty much obsolete? Someone new to the
web site looking for (current) compiler documentation will
only get confused.

The red bottom line is great. I also prefer clear end of page
markers with a huge margin.

Concerning the instructions for different Linux versions, you
may find that they are better maintained on D Wiki or
respective Wiki pages of the different distributions. YMMV.
Just my 2=C2=A2.

--=20
Marco
Jul 14 2014
parent reply "w0rp" <devw0rp gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 11:50:16 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:

 I'm getting strange question marks on the right side bar in
 Opera 12/Linux:
 DMD ? Version 1
 DMC ? Digital Mars C and C++ Compiler


I know about that. It's the ndash for the title not being output
correctly. I just haven't fixed it yet.


 Then I wondered if the "Documentation" section should be
 renamed "Language Specifications" and the links renamed to
 "DMD 1" and "DMD 2" or if they should be merged into the
 sections for DMD 1 and DMD 2 respectively, because 7 year old
 DMD 1 specs are now pretty much obsolete? Someone new to the
 web site looking for (current) compiler documentation will
 only get confused.


That's a good shout. I like the "Language Specifications"
suggestion. I'll make a note to change that later.
Jul 14 2014
next sibling parent reply David Gileadi <gileadis NSPMgmail.com> writes:
On 7/14/14, 5:03 AM, w0rp wrote:

 Then I wondered if the "Documentation" section should be
 renamed "Language Specifications" and the links renamed to
 "DMD 1" and "DMD 2" or if they should be merged into the
 sections for DMD 1 and DMD 2 respectively, because 7 year old
 DMD 1 specs are now pretty much obsolete? Someone new to the
 web site looking for (current) compiler documentation will
 only get confused.


 That's a good shout. I like the "Language Specifications"
 suggestion. I'll make a note to change that later.


When I first reorganized the current site I ended up using "Language 
Reference" and "Library Reference" for the D-spec and Phobos docs, 
respectively. There was also a collection of articles which fell under 
documentation, for lack of a better place to put them, and the 
Documentation section has grown since.

I don't know where the documentation link should take you, but there are 
a number of sections under the current Documentation (including not one, 
not two but three "tutorial" links, each named slightly differently and 
all of which leave dlang.org). I personally think that "Language 
Specification" is a bit narrow to cover all those topics.
Jul 14 2014
parent "w0rp" <devw0rp gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 15:45:39 UTC, David Gileadi wrote:

 On 7/14/14, 5:03 AM, w0rp wrote:

 Then I wondered if the "Documentation" section should be
 renamed "Language Specifications" and the links renamed to
 "DMD 1" and "DMD 2" or if they should be merged into the
 sections for DMD 1 and DMD 2 respectively, because 7 year old
 DMD 1 specs are now pretty much obsolete? Someone new to the
 web site looking for (current) compiler documentation will
 only get confused.


 That's a good shout. I like the "Language Specifications"
 suggestion. I'll make a note to change that later.


 When I first reorganized the current site I ended up using 
 "Language Reference" and "Library Reference" for the D-spec and 
 Phobos docs, respectively. There was also a collection of 
 articles which fell under documentation, for lack of a better 
 place to put them, and the Documentation section has grown 
 since.

 I don't know where the documentation link should take you, but 
 there are a number of sections under the current Documentation 
 (including not one, not two but three "tutorial" links, each 
 named slightly differently and all of which leave dlang.org). I 
 personally think that "Language Specification" is a bit narrow 
 to cover all those topics.


He was actually referring to the subsection in the Downloads 
page. I made that same mistake myself until I read what he said a 
couple of times more and then I got what he was saying. Still I 
understand what you're saying about what should go in there. For 
the moment on the master branch it takes you right to the library 
documentation.
Jul 15 2014
prev sibling parent "w0rp" <devw0rp gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 12:03:13 UTC, w0rp wrote:

 On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 11:50:16 UTC, Marco Leise wrote:

 I'm getting strange question marks on the right side bar in
 Opera 12/Linux:
 DMD ? Version 1
 DMC ? Digital Mars C and C++ Compiler


 I know about that. It's the ndash for the title not being output
 correctly. I just haven't fixed it yet.


I found out that it was being caused by the ndash HTML entity not 
being recognised by Adam D Ruppe's DOM library, which the site 
uses. It was actually in a commented out part of a switch case. I 
added it in, which fixed it, and sent a pull request back to Adam.
Jul 15 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 9 July 2014 23:48, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On 7/9/2014 2:52 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 The dlang page doesn't list all downloads or distribution packages, but
 I don't want to duplicate information on two pages and keep them
 synchronized and up-to-date.



 That strikes me like a suboptimal metric to optimize for.


 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which is
 often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org is
 much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to merge
 pull requests, etc.



 dlang.org is authoritative. Again optimizing for ease of contribution is
 nice
 but the real prize is propagating information to the end user.



 +1 and I want to emphasize that I could find no mention of Dustmite on
 dlang.org.

 Now, for gdc and ldc. Go to dlang.org. Where do I go? I click on "Downloads
 & Tools". This takes me to:

    https://dlang.org/download.html

 Where are there any instructions? There's a bunch of links to binaries. I
 see nothing for LDC. I see nothing for DMD. I see a link on the left to "GDC
 D Compiler". Clicking on that, I see nothing mentioning that I can get it on
 Ubuntu with:

     sudo apt-get install gdc


'sudo apt-get install' is so old school.  Why don't we cut out the
middle-man (the terminal) and click this link:

apt://gdc
Jul 09 2014
prev sibling parent Alix Pexton <alix.DOT.pexton gmail.DOT.com> writes:
On 09/07/2014 11:48 PM, Walter Bright wrote:


 "Debugger" leads to "HTTP 404 Not Found" (this is pretty embarrassing)


There is a debugger.html in github, it just redirects to the wiki, but 
its not being served, can't tell you why said file is not finding its 
way to the server (maybe because its in the ignorefiles section of the 
repository config?). Perhaps the link should be updated to point 
directly to the wiki?

A...
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Mike" <none none.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 21:48:09 UTC, Johannes Pfau wrote:

 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, 
 which is often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, 
 wiki.dlang.org is much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push 
 rights/somebody to merge pull requests, etc.


+1 Editing DLang.org is too inconvenient compared to the wiki.

Does someone have an idea to wikify this so changes still go 
through a review process, but don't require a compiler?

Mike
Jul 09 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 09/07/14 23:46, Johannes Pfau wrote:


 The dlang page doesn't list all downloads or distribution packages, but
 I don't want to duplicate information on two pages and keep them
 synchronized and up-to-date.


Then do some screen scraping/iframe or similar.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 09/07/14 23:46, Johannes Pfau wrote:


 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which is
 often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org is
 much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to merge
 pull requests, etc.


Is it only me that feels like ddoc doesn't scale for designing web sites.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 10 2014
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 4:01 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 09/07/14 23:46, Johannes Pfau wrote:


 I think there's lots of valuable information on the wiki btw, which is
 often overlooked for some reason. For contributors, wiki.dlang.org is
 much nicer as you don't need ddoc, git, push rights/somebody to merge
 pull requests, etc.


 Is it only me that feels like ddoc doesn't scale for designing web sites.


Not just you, I've been kind of avoiding it. I like that it *exists* as 

uses, but it still has poor readability (and writeability) *within* the 
source, plus it's really just too "dumb": Purely zero-semantics 
macro-like text substitution just isn't good enough. Realistically, you 
just end up needing to post-process its results if you don't want to 
feel like you've got your hands tied behind your back. In which case, 
why even bother using it at all?

I've always wanted something in D that's more like Natural Docs: 
http://www.naturaldocs.org/documenting.html

Macroed comments are just an overengineered mess compared to that.
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 21:52:59 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 I've always wanted something in D that's more like Natural 
 Docs: http://www.naturaldocs.org/documenting.html


Pretty nice, http://usejsdoc.org/ covers some of the same ground, 
if you ignore the extras covering the lack of explictness in js.
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 05:52:57PM -0400, Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On 7/10/2014 4:01 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:


[...]

Is it only me that feels like ddoc doesn't scale for designing web
sites.


 
 Not just you, I've been kind of avoiding it. I like that it *exists*
 as a built-in, and it's certainly better than those XML "comments"

 *within* the source, plus it's really just too "dumb": Purely
 zero-semantics macro-like text substitution just isn't good enough.
 Realistically, you just end up needing to post-process its results if
 you don't want to feel like you've got your hands tied behind your
 back. In which case, why even bother using it at all?
 
 I've always wanted something in D that's more like Natural Docs:
 http://www.naturaldocs.org/documenting.html
 
 Macroed comments are just an overengineered mess compared to that.


Hmm. In terms of input syntax, I quite like Natural Docs. But it only
supports HTML output currently. :-(

While ddoc as a macro system is quite nice, for documentation generation
I personally prefer something that understands the semantics of the
documentation better. The current way of generating indices and cheat
sheets at the top of Phobos module docs, for example, is extremely ugly
because it's manual. Ideally, a doc generator system should automate
these sorts of things by allowing, say, a generic $(tableofcontents)
directive that does the Right Thing(tm). It also should support moving
things around (e.g., sort function docs by name, split them up into
separate pages, etc.), without requiring external postprocessing tools
to achieve.

At the end of the day, the ideal seems to be something akin to Knuth's
literate programming: you work on a single source, and the codegen
extracts the code parts of it and feeds it to the compiler (possibly
reordering pieces of the code), and the docgen extracts the doc parts of
it (possibly moving them around) and assembles them into a
nicely-formatted document.

Retaining semantic information on the docs is important, since the
docgen may need to consult this info to make decisions about where to
put things -- currently ddoc is incapable of this and thus can only
generate docs in source order. Retaining semantic structure also allows
clean multiplexing into different output formats.  While ddoc does allow
this to a limited extent, it requires a lot of manual intervention
(introduce intermediate layers of macros to serve as abstractions over
different output formats) and unnatural ways of writing the input. As a
simple example, in LaTeX "Mr. Doe" should be written as "Mr.\ Doe" to
get the correct spacing, but in HTML it's "Mr.&nbsp;Doe". You'd have to
write "Mr.$(NBSP)Doe" in order to target both HTML and LaTeX, which
makes the source quite unreadable.


T

-- 
It always amuses me that Windows has a Safe Mode during bootup. Does
that mean that Windows is normally unsafe?
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Gary Willoughby" <dev nomad.so> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 19:21:21 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 Vladimir's talk on Dustmite is now up on Reddit. We ship 
 Dustmite as part of the dmd distribution.

 But it's a secret.

 Just try to find out anything or any mention of Dustmite on 
 dlang.org.

 The idea "Build It, and They Will Come" is a stupid hollywood 
 myth. We cannot go on with creating fantastic, revolutionary 
 tools and then keep them a secret.

 Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my 
 head because I went looking for a link to it to go with the 
 Reddit pointer to the video. It fits in quite nicely with my 
 previous antics at discovering there were no links to gdc or 
 ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere that to get gdc on 
 Ubuntu, one only needs to type:

    sudo apt-get install gdc

 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you 
 don't make it findable by users. /rant


Which is why we need a kick ass website designed to encourage 
developers to stay and learn more about D and what is available. 
BTW have you seen Haskell's new site: http://new-www.haskell.org/
Jul 09 2014
next sibling parent reply "deadalnix" <deadalnix gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 05:58:18 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 Which is why we need a kick ass website designed to encourage 
 developers to stay and learn more about D and what is 
 available. BTW have you seen Haskell's new site: 
 http://new-www.haskell.org/



Errors". Putting that here for the record.
Jul 10 2014
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 12:40 AM, deadalnix wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 05:58:18 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 Which is why we need a kick ass website designed to encourage developers to
 stay and learn more about D and what is available. BTW have you seen Haskell's
 new site: http://new-www.haskell.org/



Putting
 that here for the record.


The "view examples" link doesn't work. Oh well.

(Looking at the source code to the page, it looks like the problem is due to a 
null error as the link is simply missing.)
Jul 10 2014
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 10/07/14 09:52, Walter Bright wrote:



 Errors". Putting
 that here for the record.


 The "view examples" link doesn't work. Oh well.

 (Looking at the source code to the page, it looks like the problem is
 due to a null error as the link is simply missing.)


Hehe :)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 10/07/14 07:58, Gary Willoughby wrote:


 Which is why we need a kick ass website designed to encourage developers
 to stay and learn more about D and what is available. BTW have you seen
 Haskell's new site: http://new-www.haskell.org/


Scala has a pretty nice looking site as well: http://www.scala-lang.org/

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 1:58 AM, Gary Willoughby wrote:

 Which is why we need a kick ass website designed to encourage developers
 to stay and learn more about D and what is available. BTW have you seen
 Haskell's new site: http://new-www.haskell.org/


Am I the only one who thinks "Responsive Web" sites, with their 
characteristic "Replace all meaningful information with wasted space, 
meaningless photos, and trite slogans in giant text", are an absolutely 
horrible design that do more to drive people away and trigger their 
"this looks like an ad, I'll subconsciously ignore it" instinct?

(And they're even worse in this modern age where the only monitors 
*available* are slit-shaped: half-height and excessively wide.)
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent reply "Tofu Ninja" <emmons0 purdue.edu> writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:03:31 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 Am I the only one who thinks "Responsive Web" sites, with their 
 characteristic "Replace all meaningful information with wasted 
 space, meaningless photos, and trite slogans in giant text", 
 are an absolutely horrible design that do more to drive people 
 away and trigger their "this looks like an ad, I'll 
 subconsciously ignore it" instinct?

 (And they're even worse in this modern age where the only 
 monitors *available* are slit-shaped: half-height and 
 excessively wide.)


If it didn't work, people wouldn't be doing it.
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 6:06 PM, Tofu Ninja wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:03:31 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 Am I the only one who thinks "Responsive Web" sites, with their
 characteristic "Replace all meaningful information with wasted space,
 meaningless photos, and trite slogans in giant text", are an
 absolutely horrible design that do more to drive people away and
 trigger their "this looks like an ad, I'll subconsciously ignore it"
 instinct?

 (And they're even worse in this modern age where the only monitors
 *available* are slit-shaped: half-height and excessively wide.)


 If it didn't work, people wouldn't be doing it.


You have no idea how much I wish that were actually true. :(

In any case, I find it puzzling that so many web designers have started 
going back to the late-90's school of web design which unofficially 
dictated "make sure the first screenful of your main page contains as 
*little* meaningful content as possible - the more useless the entry 
screen is, the better."
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 10:06:21PM +0000, Tofu Ninja via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:03:31 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks "Responsive Web" sites, with their
characteristic "Replace all meaningful information with wasted space,
meaningless photos, and trite slogans in giant text", are an
absolutely horrible design that do more to drive people away and
trigger their "this looks like an ad, I'll subconsciously ignore it"
instinct?




I have the same reaction. My kneejerk instinct on seeing such a site is
to hit ctrl-W. If, on second thought, I might actually be interested in
it, my next approach is to use google's site:abc.com feature to locate
pages of interest on the site *without* having to use its probably
horribly-crippled navigation scheme.

But I also realize I'm in the minority, so I just shrug and go back to
my text-only email client (mutt) and my non-desktop desktop (ratpoison)
and browse D forums on a text terminal. :-P



(And they're even worse in this modern age where the only monitors
*available* are slit-shaped: half-height and excessively wide.)




Do they seriously not make 4x3 monitors anymore??? Seriously, one of
these days I'll really have to take up somebody's suggestion of rotating
the monitor 90° sideways to make an extra-tall display instead.



 If it didn't work, people wouldn't be doing it.


If the emperor didn't have any clothes, people wouldn't be saying he
did. ;-)


T

-- 
Real Programmers use "cat > a.out".
Jul 10 2014
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 6:18 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 pages of interest on the site *without* having to use its probably
 horribly-crippled navigation scheme.


I used to think a lot of sites had terribly broken navigation 
schemes...And then I started using mobile browsers...Now I'm *really* 
horrified and scarred! (And that's largely from the *mobile* versions of 
sites!)

It's staggering: Mobile browsers are terrible at browsing desktop sites, 
and even WORSE at browsing mobile sites.

And then there's "responsive" which *claims* to be "mobile-first design" 
(which would be ok), but in actual practice it's really more like 
"mobile-only design".


 (And they're even worse in this modern age where the only monitors
 *available* are slit-shaped: half-height and excessively wide.)




 Do they seriously not make 4x3 monitors anymore???


I'm fairly certain they don't. Heck, I can't even find a 5:4 anymore 
which at least isn't *as* bad as 16:9. Tolerable, at least.

Bizarrely, some of the public libraries around here have computers with 
screens that are nearly-square (not vertical, but still narrower than 
4:3). I don't know where they managed to get those.

But as for *actual* 4:3, or even 5:4, I really do doubt they're still 
manufactured. I think the best bet for 4:3 is to just look for a used 
CRT. (Heck, at least they can display more than one resolution without 
looking bad.) I'm kinda jealous of those pro gamedevs with a 
dual-monitor, one of them being vertical, setup. I should do that. With 
one of those desks that can adjust to/from standing position. That'd be 
sweet :)


 Seriously, one of
 these days I'll really have to take up somebody's suggestion of rotating
 the monitor 90° sideways to make an extra-tall display instead.


I'm amazed that 90 degree rotating display stands aren't commonplace now 
that everything's LCD. It seems like such a simple no-brainer. (And it'd 
be *fantastic* for fans of vertical sh'mups!)


 If it didn't work, people wouldn't be doing it.


 If the emperor didn't have any clothes, people wouldn't be saying he
 did. ;-)


I like that :)
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 11/07/14 01:15, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 I'm kinda jealous of those pro gamedevs with a
 dual-monitor, one of them being vertical, setup. I should do that. With
 one of those desks that can adjust to/from standing position. That'd be
 sweet :)


I have a colleague that has five monitors (kind of). Three external 
monitors and two laptops.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 11/07/14 01:15, Nick Sabalausky wrote:


 And then there's "responsive" which *claims* to be "mobile-first design"
 (which would be ok), but in actual practice it's really more like
 "mobile-only design".


Actually, there was a site here to check the time tables for the subway, 
buses and son on. They had a desktop version and a mobile version. I 
always used the mobile version on desktop. Because it didn't have all 
the crap the the desktop version had. It literally only had a logo and a 
form where I could enter where I would like to go and when. 
Unfortunately they then redesigned the website to only have a single one 
what work on all platforms :(

On my phone I used an app instead.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling parent reply "Wyatt" <wyatt.epp gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 23:15:41 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 I'm fairly certain they don't. Heck, I can't even find a 5:4 
 anymore which at least isn't *as* bad as 16:9. Tolerable, at 
 least.


If you're willing to pay a bit more, you can get 16:10 which 
is...actually not that bad.  I think it strikes a good balance.  
Better still, Google has some laptops with 3:2 screens that I'd 
love to have elsewhere.


 But as for *actual* 4:3, or even 5:4, I really do doubt they're 
 still manufactured.


I think there's still a few 5:4? But for the most part, no.  A 
big part of the push comes back to marketing BS:  Display sizes 
are measured by their diagonal, so you can advertise a 20" 
widescreen for more money, even though it cost less to make than 
a 19" at 4:3 or 5:4.  And it's "cinematic"! orz


 I think the best bet for 4:3 is to just look for a used CRT. 
 (Heck, at least they can display more than one resolution 
 without looking bad.) I'm kinda jealous of those pro gamedevs 
 with a dual-monitor, one of them being vertical, setup. I 
 should do that. With one of those desks that can adjust to/from 
 standing position. That'd be sweet :)


If you want a seriously good CRT, you pretty much want a 
Trinitron.  For PCs, my personal recommendation is the G-series.  
I had a G200 (17" flat tube) for about ten years and it could 
push 1600x1200 at 85Hz and even do 2560x1600 at 60Hz.  If you're 
using old consoles, you can't go wrong with a PVM (it works 
pretty well with a supergun too, though it still can't do some of 
the wacky modes like what Gun Frontier and Metal Black use).


 (And it'd be *fantastic* for fans of vertical sh'mups!)


Can confirm. ;)

-Wyatt
Jul 11 2014
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 7/11/2014 10:38 AM, Wyatt wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 23:15:41 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 I'm fairly certain they don't. Heck, I can't even find a 5:4 anymore
 which at least isn't *as* bad as 16:9. Tolerable, at least.


 If you're willing to pay a bit more, you can get 16:10 which
 is...actually not that bad.  I think it strikes a good balance. Better
 still, Google has some laptops with 3:2 screens that I'd love to have
 elsewhere.


Aspect ratios need to start being expressed in decimal form. The "4:3 vs 
16:9" is easy to keep track of which is which. But it gets completely 
out of hand once you also figure in 3:2, 5:4, 16:10, and...this is the 
one that *really* gets me... 2.1:1 (Seriously?! WhyTF use ratio notation 
if you're still going to use decimals anyway?!?).

Quick! Sort these narrowest to widest!:

5:4, 2.1:1, 3:2, 16:9, 16:10, 4:3

It's ridiculous. We need to standardize on decimal-notation aspect 
ratios. Or at least a standardized denominator.


 But as for *actual* 4:3, or even 5:4, I really do doubt they're still
 manufactured.


 I think there's still a few 5:4? But for the most part, no.  A big part
 of the push comes back to marketing BS:  Display sizes are measured by
 their diagonal, so you can advertise a 20" widescreen for more money,
 even though it cost less to make than a 19" at 4:3 or 5:4.  And it's
 "cinematic"! orz


That's another thing. Screen sizes should be measured in viewable 2D 
units, like square inches. None of this BS about measuring 2D space with 
a linear diagonal unit, or including part of the frame, or any other 
such garbage.

And yea, as a gamer, pretty much any argument involving "it's 
cinematic!" irritates me. And contrary to the manufacturer beliefs, *my* 
computer is far, far more than just an overpriced DVD player.


 I think the best bet for 4:3 is to just look for a used CRT. (Heck, at
 least they can display more than one resolution without looking bad.)
 I'm kinda jealous of those pro gamedevs with a dual-monitor, one of
 them being vertical, setup. I should do that. With one of those desks
 that can adjust to/from standing position. That'd be sweet :)


 If you want a seriously good CRT, you pretty much want a Trinitron.  For
 PCs, my personal recommendation is the G-series. I had a G200 (17" flat
 tube) for about ten years and it could push 1600x1200 at 85Hz and even
 do 2560x1600 at 60Hz.  If you're using old consoles, you can't go wrong
 with a PVM (it works pretty well with a supergun too, though it still
 can't do some of the wacky modes like what Gun Frontier and Metal Black
 use).


Yea, Trinitrons were always well-regarded. Too bad they're not made anymore.

Not sure if it was an actual Trinitron or some other brand, but shortly 
before HD sets, a friend of mine got a flatscreen[1] CRT with 
progressive scan, component input, and some sort of special improved 
black levels. It looked absolutely amazing. I suspect that may have 
subconsciously been part of why I was underwhelmed by HDTVs (that, and 
my ancient $25 used VGA CRT had *already* been doing HD for years).


(theoretical) capability of displaying SD *without* making it look like 
complete shit compared to a real SD set. Of course, the one 4k set I've 
seen didn't even have *ANY* inputs other than HDMI, so completely 
useless as far as I'm concerned, especially considering the price. 
(Seriously? >$1k and they *still* couldn't toss in some cheap connectors 
and decoder? Ridiculous. Clearly marketed directly at people with more 
money than sense.) But I guess they expect me to re-buy all the SD stuff 
I already own. Fuck that. I'll pirate before I let them pull that shit 
on me.

[1] People these days don't even know there's a difference between 
flastscreen and flatpanel. Ugh.

[2] 4k: Can screens EVER standardize on fucking ANYTHING anymore?!? Pick 
a fucking notation for describing resolutions and STICK WITH IT!!! It's 
like the freaking "Lenny"/"Mountain Lion"/"Ice Cream Sandwich" bullshit 
here. I don't *want* to know the correct ordering of snacks/cats/toy 
story characters, and I'm *certainly* not going to memorize which 
idiotic (and completely unnecessary) name refers to WHAT freaking 
version. Idiotic unnecessary indirection.

"Woody/Sarge???" WTF? "SD/1080p/4k???" WTF? Enough redundant naming 
conventions already.
Jul 14 2014
parent reply "Meta" <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 19:40:53 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 [2] 4k: Can screens EVER standardize on fucking ANYTHING 
 anymore?!? Pick a fucking notation for describing resolutions 
 and STICK WITH IT!!! It's like the freaking "Lenny"/"Mountain 
 Lion"/"Ice Cream Sandwich" bullshit here. I don't *want* to 
 know the correct ordering of snacks/cats/toy story characters, 
 and I'm *certainly* not going to memorize which idiotic (and 
 completely unnecessary) name refers to WHAT freaking version. 
 Idiotic unnecessary indirection.

 "Woody/Sarge???" WTF? "SD/1080p/4k???" WTF? Enough redundant 
 naming conventions already.


You think this is bad? Just wait until 4K really gets going in 
the mainstream and every manufacturer under the sun comes up with 
their own unique term to differentiate themselves. It'll be 2008 
all over again.
Jul 14 2014
parent reply Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 7/14/2014 3:51 PM, Meta wrote:

 On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 19:40:53 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 [2] 4k: Can screens EVER standardize on fucking ANYTHING anymore?!?
 Pick a fucking notation for describing resolutions and STICK WITH
 IT!!! It's like the freaking "Lenny"/"Mountain Lion"/"Ice Cream
 Sandwich" bullshit here. I don't *want* to know the correct ordering
 of snacks/cats/toy story characters, and I'm *certainly* not going to
 memorize which idiotic (and completely unnecessary) name refers to
 WHAT freaking version. Idiotic unnecessary indirection.

 "Woody/Sarge???" WTF? "SD/1080p/4k???" WTF? Enough redundant naming
 conventions already.


 You think this is bad? Just wait until 4K really gets going in the
 mainstream and every manufacturer under the sun comes up with their own
 unique term to differentiate themselves. It'll be 2008 all over again.


2008? That stuff's been going on *much* longer than that ;)
Jul 14 2014
next sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 03:53:19PM -0400, Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On 7/14/2014 3:51 PM, Meta wrote:

On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 19:40:53 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

[2] 4k: Can screens EVER standardize on fucking ANYTHING anymore?!?
Pick a fucking notation for describing resolutions and STICK WITH
IT!!! It's like the freaking "Lenny"/"Mountain Lion"/"Ice Cream
Sandwich" bullshit here. I don't *want* to know the correct ordering
of snacks/cats/toy story characters, and I'm *certainly* not going
to memorize which idiotic (and completely unnecessary) name refers
to WHAT freaking version. Idiotic unnecessary indirection.

"Woody/Sarge???" WTF? "SD/1080p/4k???" WTF? Enough redundant naming
conventions already.


You think this is bad? Just wait until 4K really gets going in the
mainstream and every manufacturer under the sun comes up with their
own unique term to differentiate themselves. It'll be 2008 all over
again.


 
 2008? That stuff's been going on *much* longer than that ;)


My favorite version numbering scheme is Knuth's scheme of incremental
convergence onto an irrational number, like TeX version 3, followed by
3.1, then 3.14, then 3.141, then 3.1415, then 3.14159, etc.. :-)

For me, my favorite irrational number is (1+√5)/2. So I'd number my
versions 1, 1.6, 1.61, 1.618, 1.6180, 1.61803, ... etc..


T

-- 
Let's not fight disease by killing the patient. -- Sean 'Shaleh' Perry
Jul 14 2014
prev sibling parent "Meta" <jared771 gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 14 July 2014 at 19:53:26 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 2008? That stuff's been going on *much* longer than that ;)


Pick a year. I just remember 2008 was the year that 1080p TVs 
really became mainstream, and there was no end of terms being 
thrown around.
Jul 14 2014
prev sibling parent "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:06:22 UTC, Tofu Ninja wrote:

 If it didn't work, people wouldn't be doing it.


It's so-called "mobile first" design, a completely misguided fad. 
This basically means you design and optimize the website for a 
cell-phone first and then as an after-thought scale it up to a 
40" display with as little effort as possible. Just in case 
someone actually use a desktop browser.

The Haskell site design makes sense only on a cell-phone. Try it, 
and you'll see.
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent reply "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:03:31 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

 Am I the only one who thinks "Responsive Web" sites, with their 
 characteristic "Replace all meaningful information with wasted 
 space, meaningless photos, and trite slogans in giant text", 
 are an absolutely horrible design that do more to drive people 
 away and trigger their "this looks like an ad, I'll 
 subconsciously ignore it" instinct?


I dislike 'em, but survive if it is limited to the frontpage. 
Meaning: I desperately look for a sensible link in the visual 
mess of non-information. I also get the idea that they probably 
don't really have anything to offer and hired an ad company with 
an incompetent web designer to do it who arrived at the design by 
buying a premade page from some other's company's catalogue, then 
replaced the photos and charged a fortune for it... OR worse: 
that they are using a PHP-based CMS. Then I start to feel sorry 
for them and put all my skepticism aside for the benefit of the 
doubt and hope that I at least find a sensible pdf-file in there 
somewhere.
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 10:13:14PM +0000, via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:03:31 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks "Responsive Web" sites, with their
characteristic "Replace all meaningful information with wasted space,
meaningless photos, and trite slogans in giant text", are an
absolutely horrible design that do more to drive people away and
trigger their "this looks like an ad, I'll subconsciously ignore it"
instinct?


 
 I dislike 'em, but survive if it is limited to the frontpage. Meaning:
 I desperately look for a sensible link in the visual mess of
 non-information.  I also get the idea that they probably don't really
 have anything to offer and hired an ad company with an incompetent web
 designer to do it who arrived at the design by buying a premade page
 from some other's company's catalogue, then replaced the photos and
 charged a fortune for it... OR worse: that they are using a PHP-based
 CMS. Then I start to feel sorry for them and put all my skepticism
 aside for the benefit of the doubt and hope that I at least find a
 sensible pdf-file in there somewhere.


I used to love pdfs in blissfully ignorance... until I recently looked
up the format. You wouldn't believe this, but did you know that it's
actually possible to embed a *video* in a pdf file? Embed another pdf
inside a pdf in a hierarchical substructure? Run arbitrary JS code from
a pdf? (Which, btw, is *not* the "official" JS, but Adobe's own
hackneyed version thereof.) If you were insane enough, I bet you could
implement an OS inside a pdf file. Or an FPS.

Content-less website splash pages seem pretty tame compared with
that(!), unfortunately.


T

-- 
Written on the window of a clothing store: No shirt, no shoes, no service.
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent reply "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:25:48 UTC, H. S. Teoh via 
Digitalmars-d wrote:

 I used to love pdfs in blissfully ignorance... until I recently 
 looked
 up the format. You wouldn't believe this, but did you know that 
 it's
 actually possible to embed a *video* in a pdf file?


I believe it, I've read the spec. It is a container format in 
spirit.


 Content-less website splash pages seem pretty tame compared with
 that(!), unfortunately.


Ok, but my experience is that content-less websites often have a 
content-full pdf hidden somewhere. Meaning, they know how to use 
Word. :)
Jul 10 2014
parent reply "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 10:48:34PM +0000, via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:25:48 UTC, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
 wrote:

I used to love pdfs in blissfully ignorance... until I recently
looked up the format. You wouldn't believe this, but did you know
that it's actually possible to embed a *video* in a pdf file?


 
 I believe it, I've read the spec. It is a container format in spirit.


Most modern file formats are container formats in some form. Pdfs,
though, are just wayyyy over-engineered for what it's ostensibly used
for. It's like building a nuclear-powered intergalactic space cruiser
just to drive down the street to get groceries.



Content-less website splash pages seem pretty tame compared with
that(!), unfortunately.


 
 Ok, but my experience is that content-less websites often have a
 content-full pdf hidden somewhere. Meaning, they know how to use Word.
 :)


Me, I usually look for a page named "sitemap" or something to that
effect, which tends to have a far saner organization than the rest of
the site. :-) Sad to say, many sites don't even have that.


T

-- 
Food and laptops don't mix.
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 3:55 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 Pdfs,
 though, are just wayyyy over-engineered for what it's ostensibly used
 for. It's like building a nuclear-powered intergalactic space cruiser
 just to drive down the street to get groceries.


It's an inevitable result of the success of the pdf format. Adobe was under 
pressure to sell upgrades by adding features.


 Sad to say, many sites don't even have that.


Including dlang.org. Wanna add one?
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent reply "Brad Anderson" <eco gnuk.net> writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 23:09:07 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 7/10/2014 3:55 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 Pdfs,
 though, are just wayyyy over-engineered for what it's 
 ostensibly used
 for. It's like building a nuclear-powered intergalactic space 
 cruiser
 just to drive down the street to get groceries.


 It's an inevitable result of the success of the pdf format. 
 Adobe was under pressure to sell upgrades by adding features.


 Sad to say, many sites don't even have that.


 Including dlang.org. Wanna add one?


Sure it does: http://dlang.org/sitemap.html
Jul 10 2014
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 4:11 PM, Brad Anderson wrote:

 Including dlang.org. Wanna add one?


 Sure it does: http://dlang.org/sitemap.html


Couldn't find a link to it from dlang.org. It should go on the bottom.
Jul 10 2014
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 4:54 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 On 7/10/2014 4:11 PM, Brad Anderson wrote:

 Including dlang.org. Wanna add one?


 Sure it does: http://dlang.org/sitemap.html


 Couldn't find a link to it from dlang.org. It should go on the bottom.


Eh, never mind. Just found it!
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 04:09:04PM -0700, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 7/10/2014 3:55 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

Pdfs, though, are just wayyyy over-engineered for what it's
ostensibly used for. It's like building a nuclear-powered
intergalactic space cruiser just to drive down the street to get
groceries.


 
 It's an inevitable result of the success of the pdf format. Adobe was
 under pressure to sell upgrades by adding features.


Right, I forgot that old adage: No software is complete until it can
read email. ;-)



 Sad to say, many sites don't even have that.


 
 Including dlang.org. Wanna add one?


Really?

	http://dlang.org/sitemap.html


T

-- 
Almost all proofs have bugs, but almost all theorems are true. -- Paul Pedersen
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:56:44 UTC, H. S. Teoh via 
Digitalmars-d wrote:

 Most modern file formats are container formats in some form. 
 Pdfs,
 though, are just wayyyy over-engineered for what it's 
 ostensibly used
 for. It's like building a nuclear-powered intergalactic space 
 cruiser
 just to drive down the street to get groceries.


It is kinda difficult to build by hand, but can be debugged 
textually if you turn off compression. So it is kind of pragmatic 
in a post-scripty way, but lacks elegance… certainly.

It's an ISO standard too, like C++. Over-engineered is probably a 
pre-requisite for proper standardization. As a side note HTML is 
not a standard yet… They tried but gave up on it ISO/IEC 
15445:2000. Probably too under-engineered.
Jul 10 2014
parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 11:20:55PM +0000, via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:56:44 UTC, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
 wrote:

Most modern file formats are container formats in some form. Pdfs,
though, are just wayyyy over-engineered for what it's ostensibly used
for. It's like building a nuclear-powered intergalactic space cruiser
just to drive down the street to get groceries.


 
 It is kinda difficult to build by hand, but can be debugged textually
 if you turn off compression. So it is kind of pragmatic in a
 post-scripty way, but lacks elegance… certainly.


One thing I repeatedly come across is malformed pdfs produced by
non-compliant software. Often, the problem comes from certain
assumptions about the format of PostScript *comments* in the file, which
is kinda a scary thought, that changing comments can affect whether a
particular application can process the file correctly.



 It's an ISO standard too, like C++. Over-engineered is probably a
 pre-requisite for proper standardization. As a side note HTML is not a
 standard yet… They tried but gave up on it ISO/IEC 15445:2000.
 Probably too under-engineered.


LOL... I think it's more a matter of corporate interest pushing it
through the standardization process, that no independent individual
would have the patience to do, than anything else. It's a funny thought,
though, if the requirement to standardization is over-engineering.  I
could dust of some of my 20-y.o. half-baked ideas, over-engineer them by
adding needless layers of additional complexity on them, and submit them
for standardization. :-P  Reminds me of this:

	"No, John.  I want formats that are actually useful, rather than
	over-featured megaliths that address all questions by piling on
	ridiculous internal links in forms which are hideously
	over-complex." -- Simon St. Laurent on xml-dev

:-)


T

-- 
Старый друг лучше новых двух.
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/10/14, 3:55 PM, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 Me, I usually look for a page named "sitemap" or something to that
 effect, which tends to have a far saner organization than the rest of
 the site.:-)  Sad to say, many sites don't even have that.


We do: http://dlang.org/sitemap.html :o). -- Andrei
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent "Tobias Pankrath" <tobias pankrath.net> writes:
 I used to love pdfs in blissfully ignorance... until I recently 
 looked
 up the format. You wouldn't believe this, but did you know that 
 it's
 actually possible to embed a *video* in a pdf file? Embed 
 another pdf
 inside a pdf in a hierarchical substructure? Run arbitrary JS 
 code from
 a pdf? (Which, btw, is *not* the "official" JS, but Adobe's own
 hackneyed version thereof.) If you were insane enough, I bet 
 you could
 implement an OS inside a pdf file. Or an FPS.

 Content-less website splash pages seem pretty tame compared with
 that(!), unfortunately.


 T


http://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/Fahrplan/events/4221.en.html
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 11/07/14 00:24, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:


 I used to love pdfs in blissfully ignorance... until I recently looked
 up the format. You wouldn't believe this, but did you know that it's
 actually possible to embed a *video* in a pdf file? Embed another pdf
 inside a pdf in a hierarchical substructure? Run arbitrary JS code from
 a pdf? (Which, btw, is *not* the "official" JS, but Adobe's own
 hackneyed version thereof.) If you were insane enough, I bet you could
 implement an OS inside a pdf file. Or an FPS.


Why do you think there's so many PDF security holes ;)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe semitwist.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 6:13 PM, "Ola Fosheim Grøstad" 
<ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang gmail.com>" wrote:

 with an incompetent web
 designer to do it who arrived at the design by buying a premade page
 from some other's company's catalogue, then replaced the photos and
 charged a fortune for it...


Which leads to the question: Why the hell am *I* not doing that?! ;)
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent Iain Buclaw via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 10 July 2014 23:24, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 10:13:14PM +0000, via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 22:03:31 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks "Responsive Web" sites, with their
characteristic "Replace all meaningful information with wasted space,
meaningless photos, and trite slogans in giant text", are an
absolutely horrible design that do more to drive people away and
trigger their "this looks like an ad, I'll subconsciously ignore it"
instinct?


 I dislike 'em, but survive if it is limited to the frontpage. Meaning:
 I desperately look for a sensible link in the visual mess of
 non-information.  I also get the idea that they probably don't really
 have anything to offer and hired an ad company with an incompetent web
 designer to do it who arrived at the design by buying a premade page
 from some other's company's catalogue, then replaced the photos and
 charged a fortune for it... OR worse: that they are using a PHP-based
 CMS. Then I start to feel sorry for them and put all my skepticism
 aside for the benefit of the doubt and hope that I at least find a
 sensible pdf-file in there somewhere.


 I used to love pdfs in blissfully ignorance... until I recently looked
 up the format. You wouldn't believe this, but did you know that it's
 actually possible to embed a *video* in a pdf file? Embed another pdf
 inside a pdf in a hierarchical substructure? Run arbitrary JS code from
 a pdf? (Which, btw, is *not* the "official" JS, but Adobe's own
 hackneyed version thereof.) If you were insane enough, I bet you could
 implement an OS inside a pdf file. Or an FPS.


I wonder if you could embed this in a PDF....

http://bellard.org/jslinux/
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 09/07/14 21:21, Walter Bright wrote:


 Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because
 I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the
 video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering
 there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere
 that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:

     sudo apt-get install gdc

 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make
 it findable by users. /rant


So what's the policy on this? Which tools can be added to dlang.org? I 
have a tool, DVM [1], for installing DMD. It's cross-platform, allows 
you to install and switch between multiple versions of DMD. Doesn't 
require any updates when new releases of DMD come out. It just works.

Should I create a pull request and add instructions and a link to it?

[1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent reply Jonathan Crapuchettes <jcrapuchettes gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:07:12 +0200, Jacob Carlborg wrote:


 On 09/07/14 21:21, Walter Bright wrote:
 

 Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head
 because I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer
 to the video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at
 discovering there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no
 mention anywhere that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:

     sudo apt-get install gdc

 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make
 it findable by users. /rant


 
 So what's the policy on this? Which tools can be added to dlang.org? I
 have a tool, DVM [1], for installing DMD. It's cross-platform, allows
 you to install and switch between multiple versions of DMD. Doesn't
 require any updates when new releases of DMD come out. It just works.
 
 Should I create a pull request and add instructions and a link to it?
 
 [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm


BTW, we at EMSI use DVM on all our computers. Thanks for creating it.

JC
Jul 10 2014
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2014-07-10 18:19, Jonathan Crapuchettes wrote:


 BTW, we at EMSI use DVM on all our computers. Thanks for creating it.


That's great to hear :)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Dicebot" <public dicebot.lv> writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 08:07:12 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 So what's the policy on this? Which tools can be added to 
 dlang.org? I have a tool, DVM [1], for installing DMD. It's 
 cross-platform, allows you to install and switch between 
 multiple versions of DMD. Doesn't require any updates when new 
 releases of DMD come out. It just works.

 Should I create a pull request and add instructions and a link 
 to it?

 [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm


I think pretty much anything that is stable and easy to 
install/use can be promoted via dlang.org
Inclusion to tools repo is a bit more restrictive - traditionally 
there only tools with Phobos-only dependencies as far as I can 
see.
Jul 10 2014
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2014-07-10 18:34, Dicebot wrote:


 Inclusion to tools repo is a bit more restrictive - traditionally there
 only tools with Phobos-only dependencies as far as I can see.


Yeah, that's understandable.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/10/14, 1:07 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

 On 09/07/14 21:21, Walter Bright wrote:


 Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because
 I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the
 video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering
 there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere
 that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:

     sudo apt-get install gdc

 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make
 it findable by users. /rant


 So what's the policy on this? Which tools can be added to dlang.org? I
 have a tool, DVM [1], for installing DMD. It's cross-platform, allows
 you to install and switch between multiple versions of DMD. Doesn't
 require any updates when new releases of DMD come out. It just works.

 Should I create a pull request and add instructions and a link to it?

 [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm


Long-standing tools of known usefulness should definitely be easily 
accessible from the main site. I'm not sure about the particulars 
though, but these are for the entire community to decide.

Andrei
Jul 10 2014
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 7/10/2014 10:23 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Long-standing tools of known usefulness should definitely be easily accessible
 from the main site. I'm not sure about the particulars though, but these are
for
 the entire community to decide.


Certainly at a MINIMUM the compilers should be findable and the tools that come 
with the distribution. The current dlang.org doesn't even do that.
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
Here's an example from digitalmars.com. Sure, my web design sux, but on the
left 
is a list of the tools, and clicking one one brings up the manual page specific 
for that tool. I think it is straightforward for users to navigate and quickly 
find and get the information they need:

http://www.digitalmars.com/ctg/ctg.html
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/9/14, 12:21 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Vladimir's talk on Dustmite is now up on Reddit. We ship Dustmite as
 part of the dmd distribution.

 But it's a secret.

 Just try to find out anything or any mention of Dustmite on dlang.org.

 The idea "Build It, and They Will Come" is a stupid hollywood myth. We
 cannot go on with creating fantastic, revolutionary tools and then keep
 them a secret.

 Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because
 I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the
 video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering
 there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere
 that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:

     sudo apt-get install gdc

 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make
 it findable by users. /rant


This post underlines a few of my frustrations as well, which I'll share 
with the intent of producing a positive effect.

There are a few things each and any of us can do, starting with the 
simplest and utmost trivial, to help D succeed (which is I assume the 
shared goal of all of our regular participants).

* Shed the provincialism. The implied provincialism in this forum - 
which is but a microcosm - is staggering. There's a good fight of ideas 
and thousands of hours cumulatively spent on writing posts, often with 
great technical content. There seems to be no understanding that 
statistically nobody in the larger community lurks here; nobody peruses 
the forum to get the pulse of language development; nobody comes here to 
read technical pieces about D. The forum activity should be planning 
followed by "going out" and doing things.

The simplest thing do for each and every member of this community is to 
have accounts on all social news sites (twitter, facebook, reddit, 
hackernews) and discuss _there_ things instead of replying to 
announcements internally. I recall some of us haven't even brought 
themselves to check digitalmars.D.announce although they are active on 
digitalmars.D - this is crazy!

It has often been the case that Walter and I (again!) hold the fort on 
public discussions on D, while most of the others discuss the same 
topics on the forums.

* Get on pull requests. I can't say this much enough. If you wrote some, 
ping about it. If you see some you care about, review it even if you 
don't have rights yet. A simple message such as "I reviewed this and 
LGTM, any holdup?" would be sufficient to attract attention.

If you feel experienced enough, ask to be included as a committer. (I 
plan to lower the bar on committer acceptance; with git it's easy to 
undo mistakes and we should exercise due process on firing, not 
accepting, committers.)

* Steal work. Whenever there's something obviously good to be done, 
don't expect Walter or me to do it. Don't suggest. Don't dispense advice 
(especially of the management drone kind - seriously, STFU). Just do it. 
There's just a FRACKTON of simple and obviously good work to be done 
here. Get on it.


Andrei
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent reply "Kiith-Sa" <kiithsacmp gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 19:11:39 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 7/9/14, 12:21 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

 Vladimir's talk on Dustmite is now up on Reddit. We ship 
 Dustmite as
 part of the dmd distribution.

 But it's a secret.

 Just try to find out anything or any mention of Dustmite on 
 dlang.org.

 The idea "Build It, and They Will Come" is a stupid hollywood 
 myth. We
 cannot go on with creating fantastic, revolutionary tools and 
 then keep
 them a secret.

 Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my 
 head because
 I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer 
 to the
 video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at 
 discovering
 there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention 
 anywhere
 that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:

    sudo apt-get install gdc

 All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you 
 don't make
 it findable by users. /rant


 This post underlines a few of my frustrations as well, which 
 I'll share with the intent of producing a positive effect.

 There are a few things each and any of us can do, starting with 
 the simplest and utmost trivial, to help D succeed (which is I 
 assume the shared goal of all of our regular participants).

 * Shed the provincialism. The implied provincialism in this 
 forum - which is but a microcosm - is staggering. There's a 
 good fight of ideas and thousands of hours cumulatively spent 
 on writing posts, often with great technical content. There 
 seems to be no understanding that statistically nobody in the 
 larger community lurks here; nobody peruses the forum to get 
 the pulse of language development; nobody comes here to read 
 technical pieces about D. The forum activity should be planning 
 followed by "going out" and doing things.

 The simplest thing do for each and every member of this 
 community is to have accounts on all social news sites 
 (twitter, facebook, reddit, hackernews) and discuss _there_ 
 things instead of replying to announcements internally. I 
 recall some of us haven't even brought themselves to check 
 digitalmars.D.announce although they are active on 
 digitalmars.D - this is crazy!

 It has often been the case that Walter and I (again!) hold the 
 fort on public discussions on D, while most of the others 
 discuss the same topics on the forums.

 * Get on pull requests. I can't say this much enough. If you 
 wrote some, ping about it. If you see some you care about, 
 review it even if you don't have rights yet. A simple message 
 such as "I reviewed this and LGTM, any holdup?" would be 
 sufficient to attract attention.

 If you feel experienced enough, ask to be included as a 
 committer. (I plan to lower the bar on committer acceptance; 
 with git it's easy to undo mistakes and we should exercise due 
 process on firing, not accepting, committers.)

 * Steal work. Whenever there's something obviously good to be 
 done, don't expect Walter or me to do it. Don't suggest. Don't 
 dispense advice (especially of the management drone kind - 
 seriously, STFU). Just do it. There's just a FRACKTON of simple 
 and obviously good work to be done here. Get on it.


 Andrei


I added a "Review pull requests" section in the "Get involved" 
page at DWiki. Please use some time otherwise spent on frustrated 
forum posts and improve it (considering my contributions to 
Phobos are minimal, there's probably some bullshit/missing 
obvious stuff)

The "Get Involved" page:
http://wiki.dlang.org/Get_involved
Edit the "Review pull requests" section:
http://wiki.dlang.org/?title=Get_involved&action=edit&section=5
Jul 10 2014
parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 09:21:09PM +0000, Kiith-Sa via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]

 I added a "Review pull requests" section in the "Get involved" page at
 DWiki. Please use some time otherwise spent on frustrated forum posts
 and improve it (considering my contributions to Phobos are minimal,
 there's probably some bullshit/missing obvious stuff)
 
 The "Get Involved" page:
 http://wiki.dlang.org/Get_involved
 Edit the "Review pull requests" section:
 http://wiki.dlang.org/?title=Get_involved&action=edit&section=5


I added some elaborations on that section. Others please chime in. ;-)


T

-- 
Fact is stranger than fiction.
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrej Mitrovic via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 7/10/14, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 The simplest thing do for each and every member of this community is to
 have accounts on all social news sites (twitter, facebook, reddit,
 hackernews) and discuss _there_ things instead of replying to
 announcements internally.


We like talking here because it's a small but friendly group, and we
all know each other to the extent that we can (most of the time) tell
when someone is being sarcastic or is just having a bad day.

It's like having dinner with the family vs having dinner with a bunch
of strangers.

Also, I'm tired of the constant "what do you think about D vs Rust vs
Go" crap that is always asked on Reddit. The D forums kick ass, the
people here are great.
Jul 11 2014
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/11/14, 7:17 AM, Andrej Mitrovic via Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 7/10/14, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d
 <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 The simplest thing do for each and every member of this community is to
 have accounts on all social news sites (twitter, facebook, reddit,
 hackernews) and discuss _there_ things instead of replying to
 announcements internally.


 We like talking here because it's a small but friendly group, and we
 all know each other to the extent that we can (most of the time) tell
 when someone is being sarcastic or is just having a bad day.

 It's like having dinner with the family vs having dinner with a bunch
 of strangers.

 Also, I'm tired of the constant "what do you think about D vs Rust vs
 Go" crap that is always asked on Reddit. The D forums kick ass, the
 people here are great.


It all depends on whether one's primary goal is to have a good time or 
push this language forward. -- Andrei
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling parent reply "Weasel" <weaselcat gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 11 July 2014 at 14:17:27 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic via 
Digitalmars-d wrote:

 On 7/10/14, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d
 <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 The simplest thing do for each and every member of this 
 community is to
 have accounts on all social news sites (twitter, facebook, 
 reddit,
 hackernews) and discuss _there_ things instead of replying to
 announcements internally.


 We like talking here because it's a small but friendly group, 
 and we
 all know each other to the extent that we can (most of the 
 time) tell
 when someone is being sarcastic or is just having a bad day.

 It's like having dinner with the family vs having dinner with a 
 bunch
 of strangers.

 Also, I'm tired of the constant "what do you think about D vs 
 Rust vs
 Go" crap that is always asked on Reddit. The D forums kick ass, 
 the
 people here are great.


I think the "Rust vs Go vs D" stuff isn't crap - it's important. 
People want to know why they should pick D over the other 
emerging languages, and what D offers in comparison. I think D 
would also gain a lot from a website redesign and more 
information about the tools available for D(e.g, DCD) without 
having to go digging for them. Just my 2 cents from someone who 
only dabbles in D.
Jul 11 2014
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/11/14, 9:02 AM, Weasel wrote:

 I think the "Rust vs Go vs D" stuff isn't crap - it's important. People
 want to know why they should pick D over the other emerging languages,
 and what D offers in comparison.


Yes. It is a duty of each member of our community to correct 
(m|d)isinformation if present, and to provide good information about the 
realities of D. -- Andrei
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling parent "H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 04:17:16PM +0200, Andrej Mitrovic via Digitalmars-d
wrote:

 On 7/10/14, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d
 <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:

 The simplest thing do for each and every member of this community is
 to have accounts on all social news sites (twitter, facebook,
 reddit, hackernews) and discuss _there_ things instead of replying
 to announcements internally.


 
 We like talking here because it's a small but friendly group, and we
 all know each other to the extent that we can (most of the time) tell
 when someone is being sarcastic or is just having a bad day.
 
 It's like having dinner with the family vs having dinner with a bunch
 of strangers.
 
 Also, I'm tired of the constant "what do you think about D vs Rust vs
 Go" crap that is always asked on Reddit. The D forums kick ass, the
 people here are great.


I agree. The sense of community in these forum is what draws me to
participate; normally I don't like posting things online.

Having said that, though, I do try to post things I find interesting on
google+ every now and then. (Though in practice that turns out to be
once every few months, which is probably too infrequent to be
significant.)


T

-- 
There is no gravity. The earth sucks.
Jul 11 2014
prev sibling parent reply "Adam D. Ruppe" <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 19:21:21 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 But it's a secret.


Speaking of secret stuff*, can we get a link to my book on 
dlang.org somewhere too?

* I might be the king of cool secrets in D. I don't even know all 
the stuff I've accumulated in my misc. github anymore!
Jul 10 2014
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/10/14, 5:20 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 19:21:21 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 But it's a secret.


 Speaking of secret stuff*, can we get a link to my book on dlang.org
 somewhere too?


Yes, someone please create a pull request. And where's Ali with his 
perpetually 95% done book... -- Andrei
Jul 10 2014
parent reply "Mike" <none none.com> writes:
On Friday, 11 July 2014 at 01:17:47 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
wrote:

 On 7/10/14, 5:20 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 19:21:21 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 But it's a secret.


 Speaking of secret stuff*, can we get a link to my book on 
 dlang.org
 somewhere too?


 Yes, someone please create a pull request. And where's Ali with 
 his perpetually 95% done book... -- Andrei


Is there any objection to changing the "Book" side bar link to 
"Books" and having it redirect to http://wiki.dlang.org/Books?

Mike
Jul 10 2014
next sibling parent "Mike" <none none.com> writes:
On Friday, 11 July 2014 at 02:16:07 UTC, Mike wrote:

 On Friday, 11 July 2014 at 01:17:47 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu 
 wrote:

 On 7/10/14, 5:20 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 19:21:21 UTC, Walter Bright 
 wrote:

 But it's a secret.


 Speaking of secret stuff*, can we get a link to my book on 
 dlang.org
 somewhere too?


 Yes, someone please create a pull request. And where's Ali 
 with his perpetually 95% done book... -- Andrei


 Is there any objection to changing the "Book" side bar link to 
 "Books" and having it redirect to http://wiki.dlang.org/Books?

 Mike


https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dlang.org/pull/610
Jul 10 2014
prev sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 7/10/14, 7:16 PM, Mike wrote:

 On Friday, 11 July 2014 at 01:17:47 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 On 7/10/14, 5:20 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:

 On Wednesday, 9 July 2014 at 19:21:21 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 But it's a secret.


 Speaking of secret stuff*, can we get a link to my book on dlang.org
 somewhere too?


 Yes, someone please create a pull request. And where's Ali with his
 perpetually 95% done book... -- Andrei


 Is there any objection to changing the "Book" side bar link to "Books"
 and having it redirect to http://wiki.dlang.org/Books?


Sounds good to me. Though that precludes the possibility of linking 
Ali's book directly later, which would be nice. -- Andrei
Jul 10 2014